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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: columbusdude82 on January 23, 2008, 03:57:42 PM
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This discussion of the problem of evil (theodicy) carries over from another thread.
Consider the following scenario: A nice little eight-year-old African girl is out collecting fruit. Other members of her tribe are collecting fruit nearby. A tiger sees her, pounces on her, kills her instantly and eats her. Why did such an awful thing happen to this little girl?
Pick one of these two explanations, and briefly tell us why you picked it:
MCWAY: The wages of sin is DEATH!. As mentioned on multiple occasions, that is indeed the worst part about sin and sinful behavior: The transgressors aren't the only ones who suffer for it.
Look deep into your life and I'm sure you'll find times, where someone else has suffered (on some scale), because of something that you've done wrong. I'm sure you can find cases, where you've suffered because someone else did wrong.
Kids suffer, because of their parents' sins; Wives suffer, because of husbands' sins (and vice versa); Employees suffer, because of their bosses' sins; etc.
That is, the little girl died because either she sinned, or someone close to her sinned, and she was punished (by a loving god?!).
columbusdude82: Tigers are carnivorous predators. This tiger saw an easy lunch and pounced on it.
So pick one, and briefly tell us why.
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Good and Bad are terms we give to things, not inherent qualities of actions or things themselves. We live in a universe that is neither good nor bad, just one marked and personified by pitiless indifference. The theodicy is totally useless drivel and should not even garner discussion in the 21st century.
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This discussion of the problem of evil (theodicy) carries over from another thread.
Consider the following scenario: A nice little eight-year-old African girl is out collecting fruit. Other members of her tribe are collecting fruit nearby. A tiger sees her, pounces on her, kills her instantly and eats her. Why did such an awful thing happen to this little girl?
Pick one of these two explanations, and briefly tell us why you picked it:
MCWAY:
That is, the little girl died because either she sinned, or someone close to her sinned, and she was punished (by a loving god?!).
columbusdude82: Tigers are carnivorous predators. This tiger saw an easy lunch and pounced on it.
So pick one, and briefly tell us why.
Oh yes, please correct the ignorant statement; there are no tigers in Africa, perhaps you meant India?
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Dude, it's a freakin' story. We can talk African tigers elsewhere! If you want to post to this thread, just pick one explanation and briefly say why. That's all! :)
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Dude, it's a freakin' story. We can talk African tigers elsewhere! If you want to post to this thread, just pick one explanation and briefly say why. That's all! :)
I did already. Theodicy=useless drivel.
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Answer:
"There are no (non-captive) tigers in Africa."
:D
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lol, how about bears?
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Predators always choose the weak of the crowd it's pretty much the law of nature.... Only the strongest survive. Why does God have to be behind every little thing that happens on the planet? Perhaps it was just her time to die, maybe she wasn't meant for anything else in life but to be killed by an ill-placed Indian carnivore. Or you could argue that if one believes in an "All Mighty" than he should also believe in "the Devil." And if so then maybe he/she/it did the act.
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Oh yes, please correct the ignorant statement; there are no tigers in Africa, perhaps you meant India?
Dude, it's a freakin' story. We can talk African tigers elsewhere! If you want to post to this thread, just pick one explanation and briefly say why. That's all! :)
"There are no (non-captive) tigers in Africa."
LOL...columbusdude82, I'm surprised. For someone who constantly insults other poster's intelligence, knowledge and education, specially in the field of Biology, I thought that you would know better than this.
Why did this happen to you? Now, that's the question. ;D
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Dude, it's a freakin' story. You should have no trouble believing there may be a tiger in Africa, given you believe that virgins can get pregnant and dead people can come back to life and fly into the sky 8)
Would it help if I change it to "cheetah"?
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Dude, it's a freakin' story. You should have no trouble believing there may be a tiger in Africa, given you believe that virgins can get pregnant and dead people can come back to life and fly into the sky 8)
Would it help if I change it to "cheetah"?
The virgin birth of Jesus and his resurrection are miracles only possible through divine intervention. Is that how a wild tiger suddenly appeared in Africa? I thought you didn't believe in such things. ;D
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lol @ this thread
OK but meanwhile back to your initial question coldude:
MCWAY's quote states that sin causes suffering and death.
His quote does not exclude other reasons that this girl may have been killed by the tiger.
In answer to your question regarding who sinned to cause this to happen.....when you get down to it.....it was Adam and Eve.
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lol @ this thread
OK but meanwhile back to your initial question coldude:
MCWAY's quote states that sin causes suffering and death.
His quote does not exclude other reasons that this girl may have been killed by the tiger.
In answer to your question regarding who sinned to cause this to happen.....when you get down to it.....it was Adam and Eve.
:D
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The virgin birth of Jesus and his resurrection are miracles only possible through divine intervention. Is that how a wild tiger suddenly appeared in Africa? I thought you didn't believe in such things. ;D
How dare you question my belief in the Striped African Tiger?!
The Striped African Tiger is not subject to your demands for evidence! Once you have faith, only then can you experience the Striped African Tiger! For it is written in Isaiah, "By his stripes we are healed."
8)
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lmao
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How dare you question my belief in the Striped African Tiger?!
The Striped African Tiger is not subject to your demands for evidence! Once you have faith, only then can you experience the Striped African Tiger! For it is written in Isaiah, "By his stripes we are healed."
8)
Forgive me! It was not my intention to offend your faith! ;D
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Forgive me! It was not my intention to offend your faith! ;D
You a-tigerists are all the same. Always talking about evidence? Well let me ask you this.
Do any of you a-tigerists have any "evidence" that the Striped African Tiger does NOT exist? Do you?
Just admit you lost, man. Admit that you don't have "evidence."
But the bigger question is: can we be good without the Striped African Tiger? If the Striped African Tiger does not exist, how can we be moral?
Once you stop believing the Striped African Tiger, next thing you know you'll be beating your grandma with a baseball bat to steal her insulin money...
You a-tigerists make me SICK!!! SICK, I tell you!!!
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You a-tigerists are all the same. Always talking about evidence? Well let me ask you this.
Do any of you a-tigerists have any "evidence" that the Striped African Tiger does NOT exist? Do you?
Just admit you lost, man. Admit that you don't have "evidence."
But the bigger question is: can we be good without the Striped African Tiger? If the Striped African Tiger does not exist, how can we be moral?
Once you stop believing the Striped African Tiger, next thing you know you'll be beating your grandma with a baseball bat to steal her insulin money...
You a-tigerists make me SICK!!! SICK, I tell you!!!
I do believe in miracles. So if you are telling me that a tiger miraculously appeared in Africa, then I believe you. ;)
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C: Neither. This is a beautiful story of enduring life. No doubt, when the little girl was consumed, her soul immediately passed into the body of another, perhaps the newborn child of kings, or maybe into a family of affluent, bohemian freethinkers. Or as the blessed, spoilt new addition of a clan of expensive Italian shoe manufacturers.
And everyone knows that the animal kingdom is slowly becoming endangered while the world is overrun with humans, since animals eventually evolve into people as they reincarnate. So maybe after the villagers hunted down the tiger to avenge the little girl's death, it morphed into the soul of a beautiful woman with tawny hair and smoldering, cat-like eyes.
It's a story of hope and love. :)
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Another good question would be why do good things happen to bad people?
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C: Neither. This is a beautiful story of enduring life. No doubt, when the little girl was consumed, her soul immediately passed into the body of another, perhaps the newborn child of kings, or maybe into a family of affluent, bohemian freethinkers. Or as the blessed, spoilt new addition of a clan of expensive Italian shoe manufacturers.
And everyone knows that the animal kingdom is slowly becoming endangered while the world is overrun with humans, since animals eventually evolve into people as they reincarnate. So maybe after the villagers hunted down the tiger to avenge the little girl's death, it morphed into the soul of a beautiful woman with tawny hair and smoldering, cat-like eyes.
It's a story of hope and love. :)
::)
Got evidence?
Of the three explanations offered so far, yours and MCWAY's assume much bigger facts than the question they were trying to answer to begin with, whereas mine assumes only very basic, very well-known facts to answer the question.
I really don't mean to toot my own horn, but my explanation has the most explanatory power of the three!
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::)
Got evidence?
Of the three explanations offered so far, yours and MCWAY's assume much bigger facts than the question they were trying to answer to begin with, whereas mine assumes only very basic, very well-known facts to answer the question.
I really don't mean to toot my own horn, but my explanation has the most explanatory power of the three!
A woman at the yoga center said so. >:(
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Predators always choose the weak of the crowd it's pretty much the law of nature.... Only the strongest survive. Why does God have to be behind every little thing that happens on the planet? Perhaps it was just her time to die, maybe she wasn't meant for anything else in life but to be killed by an ill-placed Indian carnivore. Or you could argue that if one believes in an "All Mighty" than he should also believe in "the Devil." And if so then maybe he/she/it did the act.
You seem to be undercutting your statements, here
"Perhaps, it was just her time to die".......According to whose schedule? Who booked her to be killed?
"maybe she wasn't meant for anything else in life but to be killed by an ill-placed Indian carnivore.".......Who's defining her purpose?
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A woman at the yoga center said so. >:(
8)
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Another good question would be why do good things happen to bad people?
Yep. Particularly people who have been bad for a very long time.
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You seem to be undercutting your statements, here
"Perhaps, it was just her time to die".......According to whose schedule? Who booked her to be killed?
"maybe she wasn't meant for anything else in life but to be killed by an ill-placed Indian carnivore.".......Who's defining her purpose?
....Aliens
....Aliens
Fixed
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Another good question would be why do good things happen to bad people?
It is not a good question. It is a question for a puerile, immature mind. As I said, objective observation and empirical evidence show us quite readily that the universe itself is neither good nor evil but simply pitilessly indifferent in its happenings and actions; since sentient beings such as ourselves are confined to this universe we are subject to its underlying structure. Good, Bad, Evil, etc. are all man made concepts that man himself gives to events and actions. Is it a bad thing that 99% of every species that has ever lived has gone extinct? It is neither good, nor bad, it simply is. It's amazing that grown men still struggle with something like this or similar nonsense such as the theodicy when the explanation is both known and simplicty itself. Pathetic, really.
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It is not a good question. It is a question for a puerile, immature mind. As I said, objective observation and empirical evidence show us quite readily that the universe itself is neither good nor evil but simply pitilessly indifferent in its happenings and actions; since sentient beings such as ourselves are confined to this universe we are subject to its underlying structure. Good, Bad, Evil, etc. are all man made concepts that man himself gives to events and actions. Is it a bad thing that 99% of every species that has ever lived has gone extinct? It is neither good, nor bad, it simply is. It's amazing that grown men still struggle with something like this or similar nonsense such as the theodicy when the explanation is both known and simplicty itself. Pathetic, really.
Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. It's simply human nature to find answers to events that we cannot control. It is not an immature mind but instead more of what our mind is. It is our nature to search for meaning from these events, the simple and the complicated, that we cannot control. This is how we were born or what we have evolved to. We are still hunter gathers aren't we? We look for answers and some are real while others very remote and not true, we connect unrelated events to the answer. The core of this evolutionary step (mentally) is that if it rains just once after we dance then rain dancing works, while at the same time sticking a spear in the heart of a goat kills it faster.
So when a bad thing happens we look to blame or attribute it to something greater than us to make us feel better about it happening. Nothing can prevent you or I from feeling this need. You can call that immature, but i call it human nature.
They funny thing is, none of what we ever figure out changes the truth.
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Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. It's simply human nature to find answers to events that we cannot control. It is not an immature mind but instead more of what our mind is. It is our nature to search for meaning from these events, the simple and the complicated, that we cannot control. This is how we were born or what we have evolved to. We are still hunter gathers aren't we? We look for answers and some are real while others very remote and not true, we connect unrelated events to the answer. The core of this evolutionary step (mentally) is that if it rains just once after we dance then rain dancing works, while at the same time sticking a spear in the heart of a goat kills it faster.
So when a bad thing happens we look to blame or attribute it to something greater than us to make us feel better about it happening. Nothing can prevent you or I from feeling this need. You can call that immature, but i call it human nature.[/i]
They funny thing is, none of what we ever figure out changes the truth.
Perhaps. Some of us however, have moved beyond this silliness.
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Perhaps. Some of us however, have moved beyond this silliness.
Do you have children Trap?
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Do you have children Trap?
Not yet. Perhaps I will propagate my DNA once though. 50/50 chance. Biologically, it is a sound idea but only once as we are rapidly overpopulating this mudball we are stuck on.
Ozmo, I know the question you are going to ask so don't bother asking it. Though I am sure I would be saddened by the death of my child, beyond physiological causes I would not seek a 'higher cause'. There universe is indifferent to human suffering.
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Not yet. Perhaps I will propagate my DNA once though. 50/50 chance. Biologically, it is a sound idea but only once as we are rapidly overpopulating this mudball we are stuck on.
Ozmo, I know the question you are going to ask so don't bother asking it. Though I am sure I would be saddened by the death of my child, beyond physiological causes I would not seek a 'higher cause'. There universe is indifferent to human suffering.
You will never know that until you have a child. the child doesn't even have to die for you feel what I'm talking about. you will always fear it and as you may not act on a spiritual answer you will be constantly aware of your propensity for it and it will grow inside you form the day your child is born.
And if a bad thing happen like that, you can sit here and say you wouldn't seek one, but you would becuase the pain would not end and you would yearn for answers. It is who you are. You cannot deny what you are even though you think you are aware of it.
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You will never know that until you have a child. the child doesn't even have to die for you feel what I'm talking about. you will always fear it and as you may not act on a spiritual answer you will be constantly aware of your propensity for it and it will grow inside you form the day your child is born.
And if a bad thing happen like that, you can sit here and say you wouldn't seek one, but you would becuase the pain would not end and you would yearn for answers. It is who you are. You cannot deny what you are even though you think you are aware of it.
Not true. I lost a close friend some time ago. Tragic. No particular reason. Indifferent Universe.
The fear of the loss of the child is just a fear of loss of the self, since it is the carrier of your DNA; with its death, you die as well. Since I do not fear death I do not fear the loss of a child in that sense.
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Not true. I lost a close friend some time ago. Tragic. No particular reason. Indifferent Universe.
The fear of the loss of the child is just a fear of loss of the self, since it is the carrier of your DNA; with its death, you die as well. Since I do not fear death I do not fear the loss of a child in that sense.
Yeah, what ever you say. ;)
PS: A close friend and child are a universe apart.
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Yeah, what ever you say. ;)
PS: A close friend and child are a universe apart.
You are correct. A close friend is not a carrier of one's own DNA and is not an investment in the future. One's own child is; ensuring that it survives means that you too in a way, survive. Nothing magic about it as you are inclined to believe.
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....Aliens
....Aliens
Fixed
In other words, you believe in a sentient being higher than man, that you likely have not seen or observed. Hmmmm..... Wouldn't that put you in a similar boat as those who believe in God? Hmmmm.....
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In other words, you believe in a sentient being higher than man, that you likely have not seen or observed. Hmmmm..... Wouldn't that put you in a similar boat as those who believe in God? Hmmmm.....
Well actually, whether or not I've seen something doesn't make it less or more real; some people have never seen an African tiger but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. And what does this have to do with sailing with christians?
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Not true. I lost a close friend some time ago. Tragic. No particular reason. Indifferent Universe.
The fear of the loss of the child is just a fear of loss of the self, since it is the carrier of your DNA; with its death, you die as well. Since I do not fear death I do not fear the loss of a child in that sense.
humans arent indifferent, evolutionary speaking we have emotions like love for a purpose, namely to ensure our propogation of our genes. if you take a rigid determinstic stance to everything in life and deny emergent properties such as emotion your missing most of life in my opinion. being spiritual does seem to enhance ones life and being mechanistic and robotic in your replies as if dying of love ones is nothing more then a loss of atoms is certainly missing out on what life is about.
however, ultimately i agree with you. ;D
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humans arent indifferent, evolutionary speaking we have emotions like love for a purpose, namely to ensure our propogation of our genes. if you take a rigid determinstic stance to everything in life and deny emergent properties such as emotion your missing most of life in my opinion. being spiritual does seem to enhance ones life and being mechanistic and robotic in your replies as if dying of love ones is nothing more then a loss of atoms is certainly missing out on what life is about.
however, ultimately i agree with you. ;D
I rest my case. ;)