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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: tonymctones on January 26, 2008, 09:21:09 PM
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I know the belief that when a person dies and they have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior that they are sent to Hell.
My question is what happens to the people that for some reason were never exposed to christianity.
Say a person born in Iran is never exposed to christianity and only exposed to islam, what happens to this person when they die? Its not their fault they were never exposed to christianity and one could not hold them responsible for being born into a culture dominated by islam. So do they go to heaven or hell?
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wow i'm curious too
don't worry they have an answer for everything, a couple of flip trough the bibles page and boom
as for me i want to go to hell, hookers, gang bang, etc..... that's where the partys at!
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I know the belief that when a person dies and they have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior that they are sent to Hell.
My question is what happens to the people that for some reason were never exposed to christianity.
Say a person born in Iran is never exposed to christianity and only exposed to islam, what happens to this person when they die? Its not their fault they were never exposed to christianity and one could not hold them responsible for being born into a culture dominated by islam. So do they go to heaven or hell?
They die believing in what they were taught to believe, easy. Islam offer a heaven full of virgins for those "heros" and a burning hell for the infidels.
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They die believing in what they were taught to believe, easy. Islam offer a heaven full of virgins for those "heros" and a burning hell for the infidels.
I meant from a christian stand point do they go to heaven or hell?
...and I should point out that this is not an attempt to draw someone into an arguement this is a serious question that has gone unanswered thus far.
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I know the belief that when a person dies and they have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior that they are sent to Hell.
My question is what happens to the people that for some reason were never exposed to christianity.
Say a person born in Iran is never exposed to christianity and only exposed to islam, what happens to this person when they die? Its not their fault they were never exposed to christianity and one could not hold them responsible for being born into a culture dominated by islam. So do they go to heaven or hell?
They don't have an answer to this one. Why would they?
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I think the answer is in James 4:17: "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."
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My question is what happens to the people that for some reason were never exposed to christianity.
Say a person born in Iran is never exposed to christianity and only exposed to islam, what happens to this person when they die? Its not their fault they were never exposed to christianity and one could not hold them responsible for being born into a culture dominated by islam. So do they go to heaven or hell?
Seems as though Hebrews 11 might help answer this question. It talks about some OT "saints" that were justified by faith. Jesus had not yet come to die but before He ever walked the earth people were looking forward to the Messiah and loved and trusted in God. God knows people's hearts and will deal w/them accordingly.
Something else that may help is that God can reveal whatever He wants to whomever He wants in any way He wants. Dreams, visions etc. He knows who would accept or reject Christ in advance and can provide a way.
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Seems as though Hebrews 11 might help answer this question. It talks about some OT "saints" that were justified by faith. Jesus had not yet come to die but before He ever walked the earth people were looking forward to the Messiah and loved and trusted in God. God knows people's hearts and will deal w/them accordingly.
Something else that may help is that God can reveal whatever He wants to whomever He wants in any way He wants. Dreams, visions etc. He knows who would accept or reject Christ in advance and can provide a way.
Good point. Let's also remember that, in the Old Testament, Israel was exposed to other religions, as evidenced by their apostasy on multiple occasions. Therefore, if the Israelites can be exposed to Molech, Asheroth, Baal, etc., it would follow that people from those other regions (the other "-ites") can be exposed to the word of God.
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I was under the impression that those not knowing of Christ can still be good christians b/c Christ's truths transcend the constraints of the bible.
The individual's subjective relationship to Christ's universal truths set forth in the Sermon on the Mount is what matters here.
Examples:
The Beatitudes
1And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him.
2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
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I was under the impression that those not knowing of Christ can still be good christians b/c Christ's truths transcend the constraints of the bible.
Well thats not what the majority of Christians accept as their doctrine. Both mainline catholics and protestants believe that a soul lacking salvation will be condemned to eternal torture for eternity.
Salvation is typically defined as accepting Jesus as your savior and asking him to forgive your sins. More subtleties of the doctrine are shown below
(http://a683.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/64/l_99e9b56709a01c818e4693fa4e39a092.jpg)
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ok this brings up another question of mine...What of the people who committed sins before the 10 commandments were handed down to moses. Where the murderers not considered sinners b/c there were no sins to be had?
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ok this brings up another question of mine...What of the people who committed sins before the 10 commandments were handed down to moses. Where the murderers not considered sinners b/c there were no sins to be had?
Christians will say that people had no concept of morals before God gave it to them. Not only were murder, purgery, rape and adultery permitted, they were the favorite past times of all ancient civilizations.
To give you the answer that a learned Christian should give you. Before Moses, there was Noach (Noah). God made a covenant with Noach; there were ~7 laws that all citizens of the earth were expected to follow: the Noahide laws.
Before that God had a covenant with Adam and Chava (Eve) have lot of kids, no murder, no eating meat.
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Well thats not what the majority of Christians accept as their doctrine. Both mainline catholics and protestants believe that a soul lacking salvation will be condemned to eternal torture for eternity.
Salvation is typically defined as accepting Jesus as your savior and asking him to forgive your sins. More subtleties of the doctrine are shown below
(http://a683.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/64/l_99e9b56709a01c818e4693fa4e39a092.jpg)
haha that is fucking hilarious. hyperbolic, but it gets across the point that christians beleive in talking animals, and two people in a garden of eden etc... lol.
god knows the future so why would he create adam and steven if they would sin and curse mankind? LOL nevermind the pure terrorism of christianity is gold. do this or burn in hell lol.
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ok this brings up another question of mine...What of the people who committed sins before the 10 commandments were handed down to moses. Where the murderers not considered sinners b/c there were no sins to be had?
With all do respect your questions cannot be taken seriously because they lack common sense. What you are suggesting is that Jesus (our saviour) is a relative unknown to the muslim communities; do they live on another planet? They have never heard of the most powerful and most famous human being to have walked the face of the earth. To ignore Jesus could only mean that your heart does not really care about any subject pertaining to any spiritual believe or your firm believe is on the religion you grew up in and aren't willing to even look into any opposing religion out of ignorence. In the case that you did read about Jesus and didn;t accept him would be considered rejecting him. In any of these scenerios you will not be allowed in heaven. We are on an even playing field.
Now your second question. We as humens have the ability to know right from wrong; we also have feelings such as sadness, happiness, and jealousy. We don't need laws to comprehend that we are causing harm to one another but we do need laws to form a nation, especially a nation that was meant to lead by example. This was one of the main purposes of the ten comanments.
CD82 stay out of this. :)
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With all do respect your questions cannot be taken seriously because they lack common sense. What you are suggesting is that Jesus (our saviour) is a relative unknown to the muslim communities; do they live on another planet? They have never heard of the most powerful and most famous human being to have walked the face of the earth. To ignore Jesus could only mean that your heart does not really care about any subject pertaining to any spiritual believe or your firm believe is on the religion you grew up in and aren't willing to even look into any opposing religion out of ignorence. In the case that you did read about Jesus and didn;t accept him would be considered rejecting him. In any of these scenerios you will not be allowed in heaven. We are on an even playing field.
A little Muslim girl would be killed for accepting Jesus as God incarnate. You're saying that's irrelevant and that she only lacks common sense?
What about people that read and study your bible and objectively come to the conclusion that Jesus isn't all he's cracked up to be?
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A little Muslim girl would be killed for accepting Jesus as God incarnate. You're saying that's irrelevant and that she only lacks common sense?
What about people that read and study your bible and objectively come to the conclusion that Jesus isn't all he's cracked up to be?
Never mind the people who lived for thousands of years in the Americas without ever having heard of Jesus.
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With all do respect your questions cannot be taken seriously because they lack common sense. What you are suggesting is that Jesus (our saviour) is a relative unknown to the muslim communities; do they live on another planet? They have never heard of the most powerful and most famous human being to have walked the face of the earth. To ignore Jesus could only mean that your heart does not really care about any subject pertaining to any spiritual believe or your firm believe is on the religion you grew up in and aren't willing to even look into any opposing religion out of ignorence. In the case that you did read about Jesus and didn;t accept him would be considered rejecting him. In any of these scenerios you will not be allowed in heaven. We are on an even playing field.
Now your second question. We as humens have the ability to know right from wrong; we also have feelings such as sadness, happiness, and jealousy. We don't need laws to comprehend that we are causing harm to one another but we do need laws to form a nation, especially a nation that was meant to lead by example. This was one of the main purposes of the ten comanments.
CD82 stay out of this. :)
well i think if you think about it a little bit you will agree that there are people that have gone to their grave never knowing the concept Jesus. How about those who lived in china before it was opened to the rest of the world or a an african bushman? believe it or not it has happend
Now in response to your second statement let me ask you this...Is breaking the 10 commandments a sin b/c God says so? or Does God say that breaking these rules are a sin b/c there is something inherintly wrong with this acts? I know this may seem vague and both seem alike but they are different
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well i think if you think about it a little bit you will agree that there are people that have gone to their grave never knowing the concept Jesus. How about those who lived in china before it was opened to the rest of the world or a an african bushman? believe it or not it has happend
Now in response to your second statement let me ask you this...Is breaking the 10 commandments a sin b/c God says so? or Does God say that breaking these rules are a sin b/c there is something inherintly wrong with this acts? I know this may seem vague and both seem alike but they are different
Clearly the people living before Jesus are not all going to hell, so the way they are judged by God before Jesus died on the cross is the way a person would be judged by God not knowing the existence of Jesus throughout their whole life, although in this era it may not be possible because like Stella said( If I misunderstood what you said Stella then please forgive me) God has his his ways of reveiling the truth and the right path to everybody, whether you except it or reject it, well thats up to you.
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Clearly the people living before Jesus are not all going to hell, so the way they are judged by God before Jesus died on the cross is the way a person would be judged by God not knowing the existence of Jesus throughout their whole life, although in this era it may not be possible because like Stella said( If I misunderstood what you said Stella then please forgive me) God has his his ways of reveiling the truth and the right path to everybody, whether you except it or reject it, well thats up to you.
I can agree with this but i will say at the same time one of the 10 commandments does say that you should not worship false idols, so those who believed in other gods were living in sin so this does somewhat conflict this view but they didnt know any better so?
Also you didnt answer my question
Now in response to your second statement let me ask you this...Is breaking the 10 commandments a sin b/c God says so? or Does God say that breaking these rules are a sin b/c there is something inherintly wrong with this acts? I know this may seem vague and both seem alike but they are different
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I can agree with this but i will say at the same time one of the 10 commandments does say that you should not worship false idols, so those who believed in other gods were living in sin so this does somewhat conflict this view but they didnt know any better so?
Also you didnt answer my question
Now in response to your second statement let me ask you this...Is breaking the 10 commandments a sin b/c God says so? or Does God say that breaking these rules are a sin b/c there is something inherintly wrong with this acts? I know this may seem vague and both seem alike but they are different
Both go hand and hand, although different. Not so sure what you are getting at. God gives you a conciouse and that should make you aware of your sins. The law on the other hand is there so you can get punished here on earth for breaking it, but it is also is a sin that you will be brought up during judgement
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Both go hand and hand, although different. Not so sure what you are getting at. God gives you a conciouse and that should make you aware of your sins. The law on the other hand is there so you can get punished here on earth for breaking it, but it is also is a sin that you will be brought up during judgement
Here's what Jebus has to say about sin. ;D
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/Jebus-1.jpg)
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Both go hand and hand, although different. Not so sure what you are getting at. God gives you a conciouse and that should make you aware of your sins. The law on the other hand is there so you can get punished here on earth for breaking it, but it is also is a sin that you will be brought up during judgement
I can see that point, one says that it is a sin b/c God says so, and the other says that it was a sin already and thats why God made it a part of the ten commandments. If you believe the later of the two to be correct than you are saying that God has reason to make it a sin and that implies outside forces pushing him to make it a sin meaning that God is not the legislator of the ten commandments just the police. However if you believe the first one then it somewhat conflicts with the views that God is all powerful and all loving, for if that were true than why would he let suffering happen or pain for that matter and there should be no need for the ten commandments
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I can see that point, one says that it is a sin b/c God says so, and the other says that it was a sin already and thats why God made it a part of the ten commandments. If you believe the later of the two to be correct than you are saying that God has reason to make it a sin and that implies outside forces pushing him to make it a sin meaning that God is not the legislator of the ten commandments just the police. However if you believe the first one then it somewhat conflicts with the views that God is all powerful and all loving, for if that were true than why would he let suffering happen or pain for that matter and there should be no need for the ten commandments
I seriously can't believe you are having this silly, inane conversation.
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I seriously can't believe you are having this silly, inane conversation.
SILENCE :PI can see that point, one says that it is a sin b/c God says so, and the other says that it was a sin already and thats why God made it a part of the ten commandments. If you believe the later of the two to be correct than you are saying that God has reason to make it a sin and that implies outside forces pushing him to make it a sin meaning that God is not the legislator of the ten commandments just the police. However if you believe the first one then it somewhat conflicts with the views that God is all powerful and all loving, for if that were true than why would he let suffering happen or pain for that matter and there should be no need for the ten commandments
Are you suggesting that If God loves us he wouldn't allow us to suffer?
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SILENCE :PAre you suggesting that If God loves us he wouldn't allow us to suffer?
no Im suggesting that if God was all loving that he would not want suffering and if he was all powerful than he would not allow suffering...logically that is, im not saying that his not all loving or not all powerful but logically this wouldnt happen if you assume the first two premises...I was brought up to believe that what God does cannot be understood at times by us...but i believe that alot of people use this as a crutch to close their minds and plug their ears in the face of conflicting views instead of trying to understand and interpret them
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no Im suggesting that if God was all loving that he would not want suffering and if he was all powerful than he would not allow suffering...logically that is, im not saying that his not all loving or not all powerful but logically this wouldnt happen if you assume the first two premises...I was brought up to believe that what God does cannot be understood at times by us...but i believe that alot of people use this as a crutch to close their minds and plug their ears in the face of conflicting views instead of trying to understand and interpret them
yes all loving and suffering are contradictory, also, perfection and worship are also contradictory. these simple premises dismiss his beleifs.
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no Im suggesting that if God was all loving that he would not want suffering and if he was all powerful than he would not allow suffering...logically that is, im not saying that his not all loving or not all powerful but logically this wouldnt happen if you assume the first two premises...I was brought up to believe that what God does cannot be understood at times by us...but i believe that alot of people use this as a crutch to close their minds and plug their ears in the face of conflicting views instead of trying to understand and interpret the
Sorry, I don't see the logic...yes all loving and suffering are contradictory, also, perfection and worship are also contradictory. these simple premises dismiss his beleifs.
Loving and suffering are not contradictory. In fact In many cases suffereing can make you grow and love can cause you to accept pain. Haven't you heard of the word passion. I love my son and I inflict pain on him as I see fit (disciplinary reasons). You don't know Gods intentions.
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Sorry, I don't see the logic
Ok if God is All powerful and God is All loving then the all loving premise would reason that God would not want creatures to feel lets just say physical pain for example, now God is all powerful as well so if he is all powerful and also all loving he in reason would not want physical pain and then being all powerful would not allow it.
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OK if God is All powerful and God is All loving then the all loving premise would reason that God would not want creatures to feel lets just say physical pain for example, now God is all powerful as well so if he is all powerful and also all loving he in reason would not want physical pain and then being all powerful would not allow it.
This is your way of thinking and I don't agree, but i respect your opinion. Going to sleep, but tomorrow I'll be back to issue a challenge to all the evolutionist. ;D
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Sorry, I don't see the logic...Loving and suffering are not contradictory. In fact In many cases suffereing can make you grow and love can cause you to accept pain. Haven't you heard of the word passion. I love my son and I inflict pain on him as I see fit (disciplinary reasons). You don't know Gods intentions.
wrong omni-loving would indicate that lack of capacity for non-loving acts.
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Christians will say that people had no concept of morals before God gave it to them. Not only were murder, purgery, rape and adultery permitted, they were the favorite past times of all ancient civilizations.
No, I'd say that God's desires and laws were pretty much written on the hearts of Adam and Eve. For instance, although the 10 commandments had not yet been given in the way we see in Exodus, when Adam and Eve sinned they knew they had done something "wrong."
Even before Cain murdered Able scripture shows that God was talking about what was right and wrong...even sin.
Gen 1:6-7
Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."
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Ok if God is All powerful and God is All loving then the all loving premise would reason that God would not want creatures to feel lets just say physical pain for example, now God is all powerful as well so if he is all powerful and also all loving he in reason would not want physical pain and then being all powerful would not allow it.
So are you saying that God should take away some of our free will?
For instance, I remember a neighbor kid shoving leaves up her nose. (why do kids do that ??? )
She started bleeding and crying...as evidently it hurt and was becoming more difficult to breathe.
Do you think that God should have stopped her from putting the leaves in her nose?
wrong omni-loving would indicate that lack of capacity for non-loving acts.
I'm not sure what you're saying here....do you think ONetimehard's disciplining his child is a non-loving act?
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So are you saying that God should take away some of our free will?
For instance, I remember a neighbor kid shoving leaves up her nose. (why do kids do that ??? )
She started bleeding and crying...as evidently it hurt and was becoming more difficult to breathe.
Do you think that God should have stopped her from putting the leaves in her nose?
no im not saying God should take away our free will, All im saying is that logically creatures should have never have felt physical pain for example if you assume that God is all loving and that God is all powerful
lol leaves up her nose??? From this i would gather that no God should allow her to do what she wants in free will but she should feel no pain logically that is.
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no im not saying God should take away our free will, All im saying is that logically creatures should have never have felt physical pain for example if you assume that God is all loving and that God is all powerful
So is physical pain what you are mainly questioning here? Pain can actually help us. I read about some kid one time that felt no pain...something to do w/his nerves or something and he'd accidentally burn himself all the time. He'd broken a bunch of bones etc. He was a mess.
lol leaves up her nose??? From this i would gather that no God should allow her to do what she wants in free will but she should feel no pain logically that is.
Yes! Her name was Karen ;D but I've heard of kids putting beans and m&m's etc. up there too!
Now if she didn't have physical pain w/the leaves who knows when she would have stopped shoving more and more in there! The ordeal was pretty embarrassing for her and her parents had to take her to the hospital. So there was emotional pain and financial "pain." Do you feel other pains are more acceptable than physical pain?
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Reminds me of the time my friend and I had to rush her aunt to the hospital. She was having severe stomach pains. We all thought she was dying. Turned out to be gas. :D
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So is physical pain what you are mainly questioning here? Pain can actually help us. I read about some kid one time that felt no pain...something to do w/his nerves or something and he'd accidentally burn himself all the time. He'd broken a bunch of bones etc. He was a mess.
Ive heard of cases like this as well and yes pain can teach us things but God being all loving and all powerful logically he would keep us from feeling pain, physical pain for this example...you said earlier in another post that God can reveal anything he wants to anybody at anytime, well being all loving wouldnt he reveal that the guy was about to burn himself?
Yes! Her name was Karen ;D but I've heard of kids putting beans and m&m's etc. up there too!
Now if she didn't have physical pain w/the leaves who knows when she would have stopped shoving more and more in there! The ordeal was pretty embarrassing for her and her parents had to take her to the hospital. So there was emotional pain and financial "pain." Do you feel other pains are more acceptable than physical pain?
I was just using physical pain as an example i assume that you could lump emotional pain in there as well probably not financial pain, In a round about way if God is all loving and all powerful we would logically live in a utopia and there would be no hell
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Reminds me of the time my friend and I had to rush her aunt to the hospital. She was having severe stomach pains. We all thought she was dying. Turned out to be gas. :D
when i was younger i was drinking a glass of milk and my chest started to hurt really bad, I started freaking out and thought i was having a heart attack i was only about 9 or so and called my mom and told her "i think im having a heart attack" turns out i had just swallowed some air when drinking the milk ;D
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when i was younger i was drinking a glass of milk and my chest started to hurt really bad, I started freaking out and thought i was having a heart attack i was only about 9 or so and called my mom and told her "i think im having a heart attack" turns out i had just swallowed some air when drinking the milk ;D
lol. Sounds like my daughters everytime they get "hurt." Little drama queens. :)