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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Bindare_Dundat on March 14, 2008, 06:39:26 PM
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There are other parts on youtubethat go into the other stuff they had to endure, (beatings, hunger, etc). Crazy to think one day your just trying to go about your day and the next your whole life is upside down. At this part in the video they were already incarcerated for over a year.
Trailer:
Video:
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They are obviously lying and should be summarily executed.
They are terrorist, how can you believe them?
You've read how much they get fed right?
It's all a plot by the liberal media who hates America and doesn't have the will to fight for freedom.
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They are obviously lying and should be summarily executed.
They are terrorist, how can you believe them?
You've read how much they get fed right?
It's all a plot by the liberal media who hates America and doesn't have the will to fight for freedom.
They lied so well that America had to let them go.
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They lied so well that America had to let them go.
Well they obviously have been paid by terrorist organizations to say that to make America look bad and create more justifiable hatred by liberals and homosexuals who want legalized same sex civil unions
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Well they obviously have been paid by terrorist organizations to say that to make America look bad and create more justifiable hatred by liberals and homosexuals who want legalized same sex civil unions
lol
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I'm not here to defend this behavior or some of the allegations of what happened at Gitmo, BUT.....
duty there is difficult for the Sailors, Marines, and Soldiers present. Any wrongdoings, actual or even alleged, are fully investigated and punishment is severe. The prison guards and officials at Gitmo actually step very lightly. Much of this is due to a lot of political pressure, both internal and internationally, on the controversy of even the existence of this facility. Officers and senior Enlisted keep a sharp reign on prisoners' treatment and well-being(insert your own sarcastic joke here).
I know this doesn't fit into the popular mode that Gitmo is some sort of Gulag operated by an out of control, lunatic band of US military savages. I can't even queue up dramatic music or find actors to portray what the popular belief is. The reality is the prison there is hypersensitive, moreso than I've ever seen in any other common US prison.
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I'm not here to defend this behavior or some of the allegations of what happened at Gitmo, BUT.....
duty there is difficult for the Sailors, Marines, and Soldiers present.
You know what? You're right. They know what they're doing is wrong because their heart is telling them what they're doing is wrong. Yet, they've been trained to accept their superior's orders above anything else (and this is the final goal for ALL Americans). If I were them, I'd get up, say "fuck it" and leave the army/marines.
Any wrongdoings, actual or even alleged, are fully investigated and punishment is severe.
Hehehehehehe. Wait, hahahahahahahahaha!!! Yup, we install concentration camps in a foreign land and the first thing we think of is fairness and humanity. This country is going mad!!
The prison guards and officials at Gitmo actually step very lightly. Much of this is due to a lot of political pressure, both internal and internationally[...]
To the contrary: Our government does not give a shit about international opinion. If they did, FOR A SECOND, we wouldn't have done half the shit we've done.
[...]on the controversy of even the existence of this facility.
There's no controversy, they're concentration camps. End of story. You do the math. The only controversy is artificially created here in the US, where the media has stopped reporting on the goingson at Guantánamo altogether. But make no mistake, the rest of the world knows we're running concentration camps and they know them as such.
Officers and senior Enlisted keep a sharp reign on prisoners' treatment and well-being(insert your own sarcastic joke here).
Riiiiiiight:
(http://www.worldproutassembly.org/images/guantanamo-21.jpg)
I know this doesn't fit into the popular mode that Gitmo is some sort of Gulag operated by an out of control, lunatic band of US military savages. I can't even queue up dramatic music or find actors to portray what the popular belief is. The reality is the prison there is hypersensitive, moreso than I've ever seen in any other common US prison.
What do you mean?! Are you for real?!
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Did they also describe how islam openly condones slavery, polygamy, child molestation and muslim supremacism?
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Did they also describe how islam openly condones slavery, polygamy, child molestation and muslim supremacism?
Right, and we're the best example of the total opposite: righteousness... ::) ::) ::)
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Right, and we're the best example of the total opposite: righteousness... ::) ::) ::)
False, but I'm more interested in the facts, not this insulting propaganda.
I guess you're right, these guys are the types of characters that help old women cross the road.
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Right, and we're the best example of the total opposite: righteousness... ::) ::) ::)
Finally, a fellow American I can agree with.
Hello, nice to meet you. :)
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False, but I'm more interested in the facts, not this insulting propaganda.
I guess you're right, these guys are the types of characters that help old women cross the road.
No, the fact of the matter is Guantánamo is now a concentration camp for ALLEGED terrorists. Everybody knows it! I'm not saying that the American soldiers are knee-deep into the whole thing, I'm saying they're taking part in something very, very, very ugly. I presume some of them are clueless as to what is happening. I presume it's the CIA running the torture-fest with the soldiers just taking a pasive role.
If my kid were in Guantánamo I'd ask him/her to leave. Without the shadow of a doubt.
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No, the fact of the matter is Guantánamo is now a concentration camp for ALLEGED terrorists. Everybody knows it! I'm not saying that the American soldiers are knee-deep into the whole thing, I'm saying they're taking part in something very, very, very ugly. I presume some of them are clueless as to what is happening. I presume it's the CIA running the torture-fest with the soldiers just taking a pasive role.
If my kid were in Guantánamo I'd ask him/her to leave. Without the shadow of a doubt.
The CIA has always been a bunch of thugs and assassins. What else do you expect?
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Slapper, just FYI, I'm not giving you an opinion. I'm telling you what is actually happening there. I never denied wrongdoing of the US, or that there were human rights violations committed there. I am just as concerned about our borderline torture techniques as anyone else. What I am saying is that improvements have been made, and many overzealously. I do support the closing of Gitmo as I believe at this point in time that the necessity of having it remain open is no longer needed. You are condemning many at the sake of a few, and the media by and large runs with it.
Also, Gitmo is not a concentration camp. Concentration camps were used by Nazis in which Jews and other people were gassed and suffered brutality and torture beyond human comprehension.
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No, the fact of the matter is Guantánamo is now a concentration camp for ALLEGED terrorists. Everybody knows it! I'm not saying that the American soldiers are knee-deep into the whole thing, I'm saying they're taking part in something very, very, very ugly. I presume some of them are clueless as to what is happening. I presume it's the CIA running the torture-fest with the soldiers just taking a pasive role.
If my kid were in Guantánamo I'd ask him/her to leave. Without the shadow of a doubt.
When did I disclose my position on Guantánamo? Where did I say it was a good idea? You're not assuming things are you?
My first statement was fly and my second was trying to show that the men in there aren't innocent.
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Slapper, just FYI, I'm not giving you an opinion. I'm telling you what is actually happening there. I never denied wrongdoing of the US, or that there were human rights violations committed there. I am just as concerned about our borderline torture techniques as anyone else. What I am saying is that improvements have been made, and many overzealously. I do support the closing of Gitmo as I believe at this point in time that the necessity of having it remain open is no longer needed. You are condemning many at the sake of a few, and the media by and large runs with it.
Also, Gitmo is not a concentration camp. Concentration camps were used by Nazis in which Jews and other people were gassed and suffered brutality and torture beyond human comprehension.
Good post..Gitmo has had the International red cross investigate and by and large they have had no incidents or problems. These are bad folks who were taught to lie about their treatment...its right out of the AQ play book. Slapper ur world view is so naive as to be laughable.
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Good post..Gitmo has had the International red cross investigate and by and large they have had no incidents or problems. These are bad folks who were taught to lie about their treatment...its right out of the AQ play book. Slapper ur world view is so naive as to be laughable.
Who are the CIA according to HH6?
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The CIA has always been a bunch of thugs and assassins. What else do you expect?
Well, I presume it's the same thing with all secret bodies all over the world. People do not realise that the FBI or the CIA, I bullshit you not!, can walk into your house, RIGHT NOW, shoot you in the head, get back in the car and NO ONE WILL GO TO JAIL for it. Their ass is backed (no pun intended) by all these amendments Bush has passed that puts all Americans a step below all government officials. We are the first generation (aside from slavery) in this country to have owners. We now have owners. And all of this made possible by The Greatest Generation. Of motherfucking pussies that is.
Going back to the subject, although secret services' modus operandi has been less than humane, becasue of 9/11, the CIA just took it to another lever. They went wholesale. They could just come into my house, right now, put me on a plane to Guantánamo and have their fingers up my ass in less than 3 hours if they wanted to. All courtesy of a system that is now halfway to a fascist regime.
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Well, I presume it's the same thing with all secret bodies all over the world. People do not realise that the FBI or the CIA, I bullshit you not!, can walk into your house, RIGHT NOW, shoot you in the head, get back in the car and NO ONE WILL GO TO JAIL for it. Their ass is backed (no pun intended) by all these amendments Bush has passed that puts all Americans a step below all government officials. We are the first generation (aside from slavery) in this country to have owners. We now have owners. And all of this made possible by The Greatest Generation. Of motherfucking pussies that is.
Going back to the subject, although secret services' modus operandi has been less than humane, becasue of 9/11, the CIA just took it to another lever. They went wholesale. They could just come into my house, right now, put me on a plane to Guantánamo and have their fingers up my ass in less than 3 hours if they wanted to. All courtesy of a system that is now halfway to a fascist regime.
Meh, nothing new: Congo, Indonesia, Chile, to name a few...
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I"m not breaking any laws so I'm not worried....who are the CIA? I'd say they are a moderately well run organization that have been crippled by political appointees on both sides as well as political correctness. But if u don't believ that the threat is real then u think they are some heavy handed boogeymen. I wish the CIA could do what all u libs think they can do..or that they are as good as u think they are.
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I"m not breaking any laws so I'm not worried....who are the CIA? I'd say they are a moderately well run organization that have been crippled by political appointees on both sides as well as political correctness. But if u don't believ that the threat is real then u think they are some heavy handed boogeymen. I wish the CIA could do what all u libs think they can do..or that they are as good as u think they are.
I am not a 'lib'....
The CIA helped murder innocent people. Was it necessary to get Pinoche in Chile and execute an elected leader of another country? Which further led to torture and decades of suppression...I don't think so. Just one example.
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I don't care..what some leftwing government is better..or having Soviet troops running around South America would have been ok. It was the Cold War..we had to protect what was in our stategic best interest....Pinochet...E LSalvadore/Honduras/Nicaraugua/....all in our back yard and sphere of Influence. Look what we did in Afghanistan..all to distabilize the Soviets. They tried the same thing in Central and South America, Cuba....its all a big game...and it kept us from nuking each other.
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I don't care..what some leftwing government is better..or having Soviet troops running around South America would have been ok. It was the Cold War..we had to protect what was in our stategic best interest....Pinochet...E LSalvadore/Honduras/Nicaraugua/....all in our back yard and sphere of Influence. Look what we did in Afghanistan..all to distabilize the Soviets. They tried the same thing in Central and South America, Cuba....its all a big game...and it kept us from nuking each other.
The Soviet Union went broke on its own.
We didn't need to help.
Poor justifications for unnecessary actions.
And once again I am NOT a 'lib'...unless by that you mean Libertarian, in which case I am.
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Slapper, just FYI, I'm not giving you an opinion. I'm telling you what is actually happening there. I never denied wrongdoing of the US, or that there were human rights violations committed there. I am just as concerned about our borderline torture techniques as anyone else. What I am saying is that improvements have been made, and many overzealously.
Don't you see anything wrong with what you're saying? I'm not here to patronize you in any way, but you accept then fact that we're doing wrong. Then you go on to say that "improvements have been made"... to what? I mean, never mind the fact that we kidnap inocent people, put them onto planes for 10 hours in inhumane conditions and force them into 6X10 cages, not even cells for God's sake!!, cages!!, prevent them from hearing, smelling, seeing, keep them for years on end while we torture them... and you're informing us that it's gotten better because we now fly them first class?
I do support the closing of Gitmo as I believe at this point in time that the necessity of having it remain open is no longer needed. You are condemning many at the sake of a few, and the media by and large runs with it.
I do not. I said the CIA is presumably running the show, while I do see soldiers at the base:
(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2007/06/05/guantanamo460.jpg)
I presume they kinda sorta have a clue of what's going on. What I'm saying is that they should get up and go. If their consciense is TRULY telling them to do the right thing then they should leave Guantánamo.
Also, Gitmo is not a concentration camp. Concentration camps were used by Nazis in which Jews and other people were gassed and suffered brutality and torture beyond human comprehension.
I dunno, it is a camp... and we seem to be concentrating a whole lot of inocent people in it... Nonetheless, rest asure that the real torturing is taking place far away, in small islands in the middle of nowhere (like Tristan Da Cunha,etc.,) away from the few media outlets that want to report on the situation (very few American). That's where the really really ugly stuff is being done. Guantánamo is a mere initial selection camp.
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Fair enough I'll stop calling u a Lib. The Soviets admitted they went broke trying to compete. I've been to Afghanistan...that was not the Soviets last stop. Oil and Iran were their target. Believe me when I tell u that there was no reason to occupy that place, visit, vacation...etc etc. Unless u like dirt. It didn't work out. We helped them along.
Dude these guys just got there...besides how do u know their innocent..were u on the SOF team that grabbed them..or maybe u were there during the intel brief that ID'd them has HVI's..no..ok well maybe u work for the NSA and intercepted cell phone calls between their terror cells...no.....should I go on. U have no idea that they were innocent..tortured or mistreated in any way..and if they were so fucking what. If they are top line terror guys they friggen deserve it.
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When did I disclose my position on Guantánamo? Where did I say it was a good idea? You're not assuming things are you?
My first statement was fly and my second was trying to show that the men in there aren't innocent.
Nordic Superman dixit: "Did they also describe how islam openly condones slavery, polygamy, child molestation and muslim supremacism?". Your first statement insinuates that Islam... well, you be the judge. My response was that we're in no position to critizize Islam, from any angle. My use of Guantánamo was just a recent example of that.
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Why can't we critize Islam?
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THis guy is a teddybear right.
Top Al Qaeda Figure Who Aided Bin Laden Captured
WASHINGTON (AP) ― After secret interrogations, the CIA transferred to U.S. military custody a high-level Al Qaeda figure who helped Osama bin Laden escape from Afghanistan in 2001, the Pentagon announced Friday.
Mohammad Rahim was detained last summer, CIA Director Michael Hayden said, but the intelligence official didn't reveal where or by whom. The CIA turned Rahim over to the military earlier this week in what Hayden said was the first such transfer from his agency's interrogation program since April 2007.
Rahim is now being held at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, Hayden said.
"Rahim's detention in the summer of 2007 was a blow to more than one terrorist network," Hayden told agency employees in a memo obtained by The Associated Press. "He gave aid to Al Qaeda, the Taliban and other anti-coalition militants."
Since early in the global war on terrorism following the Sept. 11 attacks by Al Qaeda, the CIA has held captured suspects in secret prisons and interrogated them. Rahim became the 16th so-called "high-value" suspect handed over to the military by the CIA and held at Guantanamo.
Although U.S. officials refused to say where Rahim was captured, an Aug. 2 story in Pakistan's The Nation said Rahim was one of two Al Qaeda and Taliban aides picked up by authorities. Rahim being arrested in Lahore a few days before publication of the article, the report said.
"Rahim is a tough, seasoned jihadist," Hayden said. "His combat experience, which dates back to the 1980s, includes plots against U.S. and Afghan targets."
Rahim is a close associate of bin Laden and has ties to Al Qaeda organizations throughout the Middle East, according to Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman. Officials said Rahim helped arrange the Al Qaeda hideout at Tora Bora -- a mountain area full of warrens used by bin Laden during the 2001 U.S. invasion of Afghanistan.
He assisted Al Qaeda's escape from the area during the U.S. operation to try to catch the Al Qaeda leader, officials said.
"In 2001, as the terrorist haven in Afghanistan was collapsing, Rahim helped prepare Tora Bora as a hideout," Hayden said. "When Al Qaeda had to flee from there, Rahim was part of that operation, too."
Officials allege that he sought chemicals for one attack on U.S. forces in Afghanistan, and tried to recruit individuals with access to American military facilities there.
"While that record alone would justify Rahim's capture, it does not fully describe his place in the terrorist infrastructure," Hayden said. "Proficient in several languages and familiar with the border areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan, he was also an extremist facilitator and courier with high-level contacts."
Rahim is perhaps best known in counterterror circles as a personal facilitator and translator for bin Laden and other Al Qaeda leaders, Hayden said.
Hayden said the most powerful tool against terror suspects "is good intelligence work, including cultivation of the partnerships overseas that were so critical to ending the terrorist career of Mohammad Rahim."
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Can we just stay on topic and not make sweeping generalities?
These three guys were found INNOCENT. They were RELEASED and told their story and now some of you call it propaganda. Unreal. Can't you just put yourself in someone else's shoes for one minute? Could you imagine going through what they went through knowing you're innocent the whole time? (Both governments confirmed it, so stop saying they really were terrorists). How many innocent people have gone through this shit and then you wonder why we have a growng problems with Islamic Extremists? Can't some of you connect the dots?
We have first hand information about what goes on in there, we have photo's of what is happening there, we have soilder information of what happened there and yet some of you still won't admit or don't care that torture both mental and physical goes on there.
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Good post..Gitmo has had the International red cross investigate and by and large they have had no incidents or problems. These are bad folks who were taught to lie about their treatment...its right out of the AQ play book. Slapper ur world view is so naive as to be laughable.
Smile for the camera's, so to speak, once they leave it's back to business as usual.
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Ur post shows how naive u (generalization) are to the US military and the US Army specifically...i know u will take that wrong..but don't. We eat our own. This is not the 60's. Everybody is worrried about being seen to cover shit up. Look at Abu Garib. Nobody would ever have known. Also Bserker has mentioned some of the propaganda stuff that the Pentagon has been involved in....our own guys leaked that. Primarily to protect a certain way of honestly doing business. If u want to run a camp like that..u don't allow international scrutiny. There are plenty of places to do that sort of thing. Maybe they were innocent..ur life and the lives of ur family are not worth making a mistake.
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duty there is difficult for the Sailors, Marines, and Soldiers present. Any wrongdoings, actual or even alleged, are fully investigated and punishment is severe.
True. Happens throughout the military. We hold them accountable. It's one of the differences between us and them.
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Ur post shows how naive u (generalization) are to the US military and the US Army specifically...i know u will take that wrong..but don't. We eat our own. This is not the 60's. Everybody is worrried about being seen to cover shit up. Look at Abu Garib. Nobody would ever have known. Also Bserker has mentioned some of the propaganda stuff that the Pentagon has been involved in....our own guys leaked that. Primarily to protect a certain way of honestly doing business. If u want to run a camp like that..u don't allow international scrutiny. There are plenty of places to do that sort of thing. Maybe they were innocent..ur life and the lives of ur family are not worth making a mistake.
Remember, you were the one that said, "No one in the Balkans hates America." ::) Should I post all the articles to the contrary? Do I have to post mp3's of people who live there that say otherwise? I used to read many of your posts but I'm finding out that you are really misinformed.
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They get everything they want. The guys at the prison in Afghanistan play soccer...u could hear them everyday. The prison was near to one of the chowhalls..once while waiting in line we saw a buch of US soldiers tackle an Egyptian soldier on the ball court opposite the line. The hogtied him and the MP's took him away. He had trown something over the wall to the guys playing soccer. Nothing was ever mentioned. They have it ok....if ur in CIA hands its different. They work out of 3rd country prisons where the rules benefit the flow of information. ;D
Where in the Balkans..if they are Sebs then I guess they do....our policy there is ridiculous. If I said that then i should have done a better job. I imagine they really hate us now and I can't blame them. That was Clinton and it was a mistake.
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My previous comments on the Balkans were while I was there and we were establishing order. I never though we were on the right side of that one...regardless Europe should have taken the lead.
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My previous comments on the Balkans were while I was there and we were establishing order. I never though we were on the right side of that one...regardless Europe should have taken the lead.
American foriegn policy is so detached from what is actually happening in the minds of the "enemy", that it is going to cause shit everywhere it sticks it's nose. Unfortunatly.
Think of how we could sway the minds of the "enemy" buy being the exact oppsite of what we have been doing all these years.
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The "enemy" hates us and the West regardless....we have entangled in alot of spots we shouldn't be.
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Did they also describe how islam openly condones slavery, polygamy, child molestation and muslim supremacism?
you know you may have a point. Because they condone these things it's justified for the US th treat them that way.
We should increase our torture methods to making them listen to Brittany spears records.
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HH6, you need some Pepto-Bismol for the brain my man!
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The "enemy" hates us and the West regardless....we have entangled in alot of spots we shouldn't be.
Yeah....."Lets stay the course".......... ::)
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People shouldn't be chucked into a military prison without trail.
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Islam sucks. All religion sucks, however the if you have a rabid dog and you kick it, you will make it that much angrier.
That's what American foreign policy does and.
The USA CAN go broke. As I mentioned before, people living in the 2nd century CE of the Pax Romana sang on about the Eternal City every day but in 476 CE I can assure you people were singing a different tune, even earlier than that.
In the next few decades the United States will have to learn to be just another country in the world because it's going broke. The money is NOT there.
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Nordic Superman dixit: "Did they also describe how islam openly condones slavery, polygamy, child molestation and muslim supremacism?". Your first statement insinuates that Islam... well, you be the judge. My response was that we're in no position to critizize Islam, from any angle. My use of Guantánamo was just a recent example of that.
Wow, total lack of intelligence on your part.
I'm in a fabulous position, as is anyone else in a country with freedom of speech, and the freedom to criticise ANYTHING.
It's absolutely critical for us to openly criticise islam and all religions from EVERY angle.
My statement doesn't insinuate anything, those are hard boiled facts. Do you care to disprove any of those statements I mean in regards to islam? Tip: you can't.
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you know you may have a point. Because they condone these things it's justified for the US th treat them that way.
We should increase our torture methods to making them listen to Brittany spears records.
When did you turn into a troll?
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Why can't we critize Islam?
It's not PC
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Wow, total lack of intelligence on your part.
I'm in a fabulous position, as is anyone else in a country with freedom of speech, and the freedom to criticise ANYTHING.
It's absolutely critical for us to openly criticise islam and all religions from EVERY angle.
My statement doesn't insinuate anything, those are hard boiled facts. Do you care to disprove any of those statements I mean in regards to islam? Tip: you can't.
No, you're right in that you do have a right to criticise anything... sort of. Some things you WILL NOT be able to criticise openly in this country. Not for long anyway. I do agre with you on that. The problem is that some of Islam's sects (Wahabbists, etc) are indeed a piece of shit that offer humanity nothing short of total anihilation. HOWEVER, a greater part of Islam is open minded, in their own ways, and in many islamic countries religion is secondary to the citizen's rights.
Not only that, historically, Islam provided the grounds for one of the most "fertile" periods of human history: Al-Andalus, where sciences were taken to another level, the religious tolerance was lightyears ahead of anyone else, etc. Compare that with Christianity, during the same period, or later periods, whichever you prefer, and you will see that US CHRISTIANS have taken part in ALL of the most murderous rampages, the majority of them backed by the Church.
What am I saying with all of this? Do not be a hypocrite, clean up your house before you try to clean up someone else's. Do not point the finger at a minority, yes, a minority! of radicalized nazis just because their badder than the worst of your homeboys. And what your comment shows is a total ignorance of the Islamic world, by pointing the finger at all of them, as opposed to the ones causing the problem. Is slavery condoned in Morocco? Yes, it is not legal. Is pedophilia persecuted by law in Algeria? Yes! There go your hard-boiled facts.
So much shit, so little toilet paper!
And besides, we have our own set of unsolved problems that we must deal with before we go around "fixin'" someone else's problems.
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Islam sucks. All religion sucks, however the if you have a rabid dog and you kick it, you will make it that much angrier.
Exactly! I do not know how we Christians have the balls to go around the world "teaching" ethics, love and all that bullshit. The Church is behind some of the worst attrocities in human history! It's beyond me how someone could just say that Islam does not persecute, hence pasively encourage, pedophilia, slavery, etc.
It's beyond me!!
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No, you're right in that you do have a right to criticise anything... sort of. Some things you WILL NOT be able to criticise openly in this country. Not for long anyway. I do agre with you on that. The problem is that some of Islam's sects (Wahabbists, etc) are indeed a piece of shit that offer humanity nothing short of total anihilation. HOWEVER, a greater part of Islam is open minded, in their own ways, and in many islamic countries religion is secondary to the citizen's rights.
Islam is islam, the koran is the koran. Which sect of islam doesn't justify slavery, polygamy, child molestation, lack of women's rights?
Can you name an islamic country where religion is secondary? Name me a single country which was islamised by peaceful means.
Not only that, historically, Islam provided the grounds for one of the most "fertile" periods of human history: Al-Andalus, where sciences were taken to another level, the religious tolerance was lightyears ahead of anyone else, etc. Compare that with Christianity, during the same period, or later periods, whichever you prefer, and you will see that US CHRISTIANS have taken part in ALL of the most murderous rampages, the majority of them backed by the Church.
This is not entirely true. How did the muslims control Spain? Via Conquests. Aggressive conquests. If you researched the Christian conquests in their entirety you would find it was a tactical and defensive movement against muslim aggressors.
The treatment of non-muslims during Al-Andalus is detable. Let's not forget non-muslims were still second class, "lesser humans" than muslims and paid the jizya. Can you explain to me the Western Christian comparison?
"Bernard Lewis takes issue with this view, arguing its modern use is ahistorical and apologetic. He argues that Islam traditionally did not offer such equality nor even pretended that it did, arguing that it would be both a "theological as well as a logical absurdity.""
PS. I'm not Christian I'm atheist.
What am I saying with all of this? Do not be a hypocrite, clean up your house before you try to clean up someone else's. Do not point the finger at a minority, yes, a minority! of radicalized nazis just because their badder than the worst of your homeboys. And what your comment shows is a total ignorance of the Islamic world, by pointing the finger at all of them, as opposed to the ones causing the problem. Is slavery condoned in Morocco? Yes, it is not legal. Is pedophilia persecuted by law in Algeria? Yes! There go your hard-boiled facts.
Total ignorance of the islamic world? Come on now, give me a break. You've refuted nothing but have exposed yourself as an apologist.
Your own hypocrisy is unmatched going from:
My response was that we're in no position to critizize Islam, from any angle.
To your latest post. :-\
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No, you're right in that you do have a right to criticise anything... sort of. Some things you WILL NOT be able to criticise openly in this country. Not for long anyway. I do agre with you on that. The problem is that some of Islam's sects (Wahabbists, etc) are indeed a piece of shit that offer humanity nothing short of total anihilation. HOWEVER, a greater part of Islam is open minded, in their own ways, and in many islamic countries religion is secondary to the citizen's rights.
Not only that, historically, Islam provided the grounds for one of the most "fertile" periods of human history: Al-Andalus, where sciences were taken to another level, the religious tolerance was lightyears ahead of anyone else, etc. Compare that with Christianity, during the same period, or later periods, whichever you prefer, and you will see that US CHRISTIANS have taken part in ALL of the most murderous rampages, the majority of them backed by the Church.
What am I saying with all of this? Do not be a hypocrite, clean up your house before you try to clean up someone else's. Do not point the finger at a minority, yes, a minority! of radicalized nazis just because their badder than the worst of your homeboys. And what your comment shows is a total ignorance of the Islamic world, by pointing the finger at all of them, as opposed to the ones causing the problem. Is slavery condoned in Morocco? Yes, it is not legal. Is pedophilia persecuted by law in Algeria? Yes! There go your hard-boiled facts.
So much shit, so little toilet paper!
And besides, we have our own set of unsolved problems that we must deal with before we go around "fixin'" someone else's problems.
All this is pure bullshit...as the Caliphates spread across the globe, they sucked up ideas, technologies etc from the countries they invaded and occupied. Now u'll come back that what I just posted is BS and I'll paste some crap from somebody who disputes that and it will go on and on....the bottom line is this, thats all in the past. The Catholic Church and her mistakes are in the past. Islam and her mistakes are killing people now...its views and backward thinking are creating genocide in Africa. I don't remember wearing a white tabard and Maltese cross as I drove across Iraq. But every day the islamist invoke the name of Allah as they kill and wound our troops, their own countrymen and other innocents across the world. Islam today cannot be defended.
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All this is pure bullshit...as the Caliphates spread across the globe, they sucked up ideas, technologies etc from the countries they invaded and occupied. Now u'll come back that what I just posted is BS and I'll paste some crap from somebody who disputes that and it will go on and on....the bottom line is this, thats all in the past.
And what kingdom/monarchy, democracy or republic did the Caliphates exactly sucked their ideas from? The Vikings? Wait, the Egyptians? The Greeks? I'd like to see the answer to that one because Europe was full fledge into their Middle Ages and BARELY NOTHING was created in Europe back then.
The Catholic Church and her mistakes are in the past.
Northern Ireland, the nazi extermination of the jews, etc... Should I go on?
Islam and her mistakes are killing people now...its views and backward thinking are creating genocide in Africa.
Right, and we're spreading democracy by peaceful means, with little or no collateral damage.
I don't remember wearing a white tabard and Maltese cross as I drove across Iraq. But every day the islamist invoke the name of Allah as they kill and wound our troops, their own countrymen and other innocents across the world. Islam today cannot be defended.
The people you're referring to are a minority. Although our actions, American action that is, is creating thousands of them by the minute... And polarizing moderate muslim opinion!
I think there's a lot of misconceptions and things we do not know about Islam. I do agree that their bad seeds, the wahabbists and the like are really human waste, but so are some of the Christian movements.
Go get a real job that contributes to the economy and not to world conflict!
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I don't agree with any of you.
Islam sucks...and US foreign policy sucks too...
Kicking a rabid dog basically...
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I don't agree with any of you.
Islam sucks...and US foreign policy sucks too...
Kicking a rabid dog basically...
People are severely overreacting to the "danger" muslims represent.
The nutjobs in their ranks might represent a danger if they actually get WMD and use them, but this is also just setting themselves up for self destruction when the west retaliate.
Islam is just a belief system, and no matter how deep a belief system is ingrained in some cultures, it will not survive long term when it is no longer creating good stuff, at least not on a mass scale. Debussey = pretty sure that many immigrant kids leaves their religious roots eventually, as many have already done.
This does not take anything away from the fact that fundamentalist muslims are vermin.
And it just testifies to the fact that this world is mainly composed by humans that are not adequately equipped to deal with the issues this civilization will face eventually. A "sad ;D", but probably true fact is that if a big fucking catastrophy were to occur (like a pandemic or something), the poor uneducated fuckeads infected with superstition in the form of religion and low intellectual abilities would be the first ones to go.
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And what kingdom/monarchy, democracy or republic did the Caliphates exactly sucked their ideas from? The Vikings? Wait, the Egyptians? The Greeks? I'd like to see the answer to that one because Europe was full fledge into their Middle Ages and BARELY NOTHING was created in Europe back then.
Al-Andalus: 750 to 1031
You're stupid enough to make the statement that barely nothing was created in Europe during this period? Someone needs to read up on their history.
Northern Ireland, the nazi extermination of the jews, etc... Should I go on?
Oh brother... you are joking?
Conflict in Northern Ireland was a separatist struggle over independence.
Nazi Germany wasn't justified via the teachings of Catholicism.
Islam is just a belief system, and no matter how deep a belief system is ingrained in some cultures, it will not survive long term when it is no longer creating good stuff, at least not on a mass scale. Debussey = pretty sure that many immigrant kids leaves their religious roots eventually, as many have already done.
I'd like this to be true, but the July 7 bombers and other radicals in Britain and Europe are not first generation immigrants.
Of course you guys will keep on apologising.
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I'd like this to be true, but the July 7 bombers and other radicals in Britain and Europe are not first generation immigrants.
Of course you guys will keep on apologising.
Nordic Superman: In order to have this discussion with you, Debussey must know: What is your view on muslims? What do you think will happen during the next 25 years in Europe with the muslims?
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Islam is islam, the koran is the koran. Which sect of islam doesn't justify slavery, polygamy, child molestation, lack of women's rights?
Can you name an islamic country where religion is secondary? Name me a single country which was islamised by peaceful means.
;D ;D What does a secular country have to do with having been "islamised" peacefully? ;D ;D
I can name various countries where religion is secondary, I presume you're referring to secular states, so... Iraq (before we destroyed it,) Bosnia, Kosovo, Azerbaijan, Turkey, most of the Soviet -stans, Chad, Mali, guy, etc. And these are the Islamic states that have actually declared in their constitutions that they wish to organize as a SECULAR state. There are others that are de-facto secular states like Albania or Syria although not declared as such in their Constitution.
Aside from that, I do not where you're trying to get with the countries that were "islamised by peaceful means" question... Care to elaborate? I mean, many Christian countries were christianized by violent means... so, why point the finger if our religion is just as bad?
This is not entirely true. How did the muslims control Spain? Via Conquests. Aggressive conquests. If you researched the Christian conquests in their entirety you would find it was a tactical and defensive movement against muslim aggressors.
:o :o :o Your're fucking bullshitting me right?!!
The treatment of non-muslims during Al-Andalus is detable. Let's not forget non-muslims were still second class, "lesser humans" than muslims and paid the jizya. Can you explain to me the Western Christian comparison?
Sure, you're talking about 10 fucking centuries ago!! You're talking about a time in which if caught stealing you'd get your head chopped off right then and there. HOWEVER, Jews, Christians and other religious minorities were MUCH BETTER OFF in Al-Andalus than in the rest of Europe.
"Bernard Lewis takes issue with this view, arguing its modern use is ahistorical and apologetic. He argues that Islam traditionally did not offer such equality nor even pretended that it did, arguing that it would be both a "theological as well as a logical absurdity.
It's funny, because the Iberian counterparts seem to have a much more positive opinion of Al-Andalus than the American or British authors. For one they seem to put things in perspective. They talk about blatantly superior scientific knowledge and a voracious apetite for it, as opposed to the rest of Europe. The truth is that if you just look at the architecture of the time, the Alhambra of granada is an architectural masterpiece (for the time) that has no equal in Europe, the first thing that'd come to your mind is "how the fuck did they do this?!". And this can be said about medicine, astronomy and pretty much anything else. I mean, even the Renaissance was heavily influenced by these people. Everyone knows that without the translations of some of the Islamic scholars' work from Spain the Reinaissance would've happened in a much different, and less creative, way. If it'd happen at all.
PS. I'm not Christian I'm atheist.
Me too. We're more alike than you think. ;)
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Nordic Superman: In order to have this discussion with you, Debussey must know: What is your view on muslims? What do you think will happen during the next 25 years in Europe with the muslims?
Islam is a savage cult like religion. Muslims are individuals with good or bad tenancies, but any who don't take the koran with at least a cup full of salt I am wary of.
What will happen in Europe... 2 outcomes...
1: Muslim immigration and apologism towards muslims continues in the core states where they pose a problem, Britain, France, Germany and the Netherlands. Aspects of sharia law maybe introduce leading to a spiral of decay for the EU.
2: Immigration policies change, peoples stances and openness to discuss issues critical of islam become acceptable (they're no at the moment), everyone lives happily ever after.
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People are severely overreacting to the "danger" muslims represent.
The nutjobs in their ranks might represent a danger if they actually get WMD and use them, but this is also just setting themselves up for self destruction when the west retaliate.
Islam is just a belief system, and no matter how deep a belief system is ingrained in some cultures, it will not survive long term when it is no longer creating good stuff, at least not on a mass scale. Debussey = pretty sure that many immigrant kids leaves their religious roots eventually, as many have already done.
This does not take anything away from the fact that fundamentalist muslims are vermin.
And it just testifies to the fact that this world is mainly composed by humans that are not adequately equipped to deal with the issues this civilization will face eventually. A "sad ;D", but probably true fact is that if a big fucking catastrophy were to occur (like a pandemic or something), the poor uneducated fuckeads infected with superstition in the form of religion and low intellectual abilities would be the first ones to go.
Exactly! Religion is a deadly disease and must be erradicated.
What is happening with Islam nowadays is the same thing that happened with the Communists. It's all a big movie being sold to us as though the muslims really want to kill us, and that is not the case. Even though our government is killing them.
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;D ;D What does a secular country have to do with having been "islamised" peacefully? ;D ;D
I can name various countries where religion is secondary, I presume you're referring to secular states, so... Iraq (before we destroyed it,) Bosnia, Kosovo, Azerbaijan, Turkey, most of the Soviet -stans, Chad, Mali, guy, etc. And these are the Islamic states that have actually declared in their constitutions that they wish to organize as a SECULAR state. There are others that are de-facto secular states like Albania or Syria although not declared as such in their Constitution.
Aside from that, I do not where you're trying to get with the countries that were "islamised by peaceful means" question... Care to elaborate? I mean, many Christian countries were christianized by violent means... so, why point the finger if our religion is just as bad?
:o :o :o Your're fucking bullshitting me right?!!
Sure, you're talking about 10 fucking centuries ago!! You're talking about a time in which if caught stealing you'd get your head chopped off right then and there. HOWEVER, Jews, Christians and other religious minorities were MUCH BETTER OFF in Al-Andalus than in the rest of Europe.
It's funny, because the Iberian counterparts seem to have a much more positive opinion of Al-Andalus than the American or British authors. For one they seem to put things in perspective. They talk about blatantly superior scientific knowledge and a voracious apetite for it, as opposed to the rest of Europe. The truth is that if you just look at the architecture of the time, the Alhambra of granada is an architectural masterpiece (for the time) that has no equal in Europe, the first thing that'd come to your mind is "how the fuck did they do this?!". And this can be said about medicine, astronomy and pretty much anything else. I mean, even the Renaissance was heavily influenced by these people. Everyone knows that without the translations of some of the Islamic scholars' work from Spain the Reinaissance would've happened in a much different, and less creative, way. If it'd happen at all.
Me too. We're more alike than you think. ;)
The countries you list have huge bias's towards muslims. Muslims typically receive the resources first in such countries and non-muslims are still appressed in one form or other.
My statement was that not a SINGLE country was islamised by peaceful means unlike some Christian countries. But why must you bring Christianity into this? Isn't the topic here islam? Are you saying they cannot be discussed exclusive of each other?
I honestly think your knowledge/interpretation of the middle ages is a little off.
A lot of the scientists during the caliphate period of Spain were actually Jewish, the jewish wealth as today caused them criticism and in one event slaughter at the hands of the muslims in this idealistic muslim paradise you're pushing :)
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Islam is a savage cult like religion. Muslims are individuals with good or bad tenancies, but any who don't take the koran with at least a cup full of salt I am wary of.
What will happen in Europe... 2 outcomes...
1: Muslim immigration and apologism towards muslims continues in the core states where they pose a problem, Britain, France, Germany and the Netherlands. Aspects of sharia law maybe introduce leading to a spiral of decay for the EU.
2: Immigration policies change, peoples stances and openness to discuss issues critical of islam become acceptable (they're no at the moment), everyone lives happily ever after.
Interesting.
Regarding 1: Debussey find this highly unlikely, because for this scenario to occur, several very unlikely things have to happen(due to lack of time, Debussey will write the reasons for its agruments later).
The scenario of introducing Sharia law = very unlikely. And even if it was somewhat introduced, it would be pretty hard to fuck up EU because of it.
apologism towards muslims continues
Have you seen the tremendous pressure against Islam lately? Most places in Europe, people HATES muslims (and there exists many good reasons for being vary of them). The policy makers today are excusing them here and there, but the way things are continuing, it is not likely that they'll benefit from this long term.
And: How many % of muslims actually wants the sharia law?
Also, the places like S.A. and UAE are become more and more western.
Make no mistake, Debussey thinks fundamentalist muslims = vermin. They are irrational idiots with the intelligence of backwards stone age idiots. But the chances of them actually getting loads of power or them actually fundamentally changing western societies are pretty slim.
But at least they give people something to worry about :D ;D
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When did you turn into a troll?
A. i was making a point about what you were inferring with your statement.
B. i was making a joke.
What's a matter can't comment on your statement?
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What do you think will happen during the next 25 years in Europe with the muslims?
I'd like to answer this, if I may.
Native Europeans have well-below replacement birthrates(with the exception of Albanian Muslims). Couple this with crushing taxes, a relatively high standard of living, out of control immigration(both legal and illegal), and embracing a very liberal ideaology, it's no secret that Europeans simply do not want, nor can afford, children. By liberal idealogy, I mean by: Empowerment of women(career-minded, career-driven), empowerment of gays, ultra-tolerance for any and all forms of differences from themselves, birth control, the welfare state, and, a bit off topic here, but a very visible shame and feeling of post-colonial guilt......on themselves. Native-born workers are often denied jobs by less qualified foreigners.
The Muslim population in Europe do not share any of these properties. They have no shame, nor is it outlawed anywhere in their religious texts, by helping themselves to the welfare system employed by Europe. They desire to grow, to populate, to spread their religion and culture. Many have fierce pride in their race, religion, and culture, things that the seemingly emasculated Europeans are discouraged of doing. The largely North African and Middle Eastern populations continue to swell inside Europe, as the native population continues to age and die.
In Britain alone, there are dozens of various groups that just the Housing Authority has to cater to. In a few housing projects, the toilets must be built to face away from Mecca. How many terror attacks and terror plots and attempts has Europe faced recently? How many Mosques are being built in comparison to churches?
As for the question.......25 years? Under the ultra-tolerant(tolerance other than the native Europeans) umbrella of the EU, there will be dozens of areas under some form of Sharia Law. Converts to Islam will continue to rise as many see the writing on the wall. Europe will fall largely under Islamic rule, not by conquest, but by acquiesce.
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I'd like to answer this, if I may.
Native Europeans have well-below replacement birthrates(with the exception of Albanian Muslims). Couple this with crushing taxes, a relatively high standard of living, out of control immigration(both legal and illegal), and embracing a very liberal ideaology, it's no secret that Europeans simply do not want, nor can afford, children. By liberal idealogy, I mean by: Empowerment of women(career-minded, career-driven), empowerment of gays, ultra-tolerance for any and all forms of differences from themselves, birth control, the welfare state, and, a bit off topic here, but a very visible shame and feeling of post-colonial guilt......on themselves. Native-born workers are often denied jobs by less qualified foreigners.
The Muslim population in Europe do not share any of these properties. They have no shame, nor is it outlawed anywhere in their religious texts, by helping themselves to the welfare system employed by Europe. They desire to grow, to populate, to spread their religion and culture. Many have fierce pride in their race, religion, and culture, things that the seemingly emasculated Europeans are discouraged of doing. The largely North African and Middle Eastern populations continue to swell inside Europe, as the native population continues to age and die.
In Britain alone, there are dozens of various groups that just the Housing Authority has to cater to. In a few housing projects, the toilets must be built to face away from Mecca. How many terror attacks and terror plots and attempts has Europe faced recently? How many Mosques are being built in comparison to churches?
As for the question.......25 years? Under the ultra-tolerant(tolerance other than the native Europeans) umbrella of the EU, there will be dozens of areas under some form of Sharia Law. Converts to Islam will continue to rise as many see the writing on the wall. Europe will fall largely under Islamic rule, not by conquest, but by acquiesce.
Haha ;D
This post is the worst piece of horseshit Debussey has read for quite some time.
Have you even looked at the numbers behind immigrant birth rates, how they decline, and future demographic scenarios based on "demographic forecasting"?
If you run the numbers, and factor in the neccessary precautions needed, your future scenario is just a dream made to scare people.
The premises you build your post upon is the biggest piece of ignorant thinking Debussey has seen for quite some time.
Please back up your post with numbers and solid rational arguments :)
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Al-Andalus: 750 to 1031
You're stupid enough to make the statement that barely nothing was created in Europe during this period? Someone needs to read up on their history.
And yet, as with all your previous comments, you point the finger without saying anything substantial. What was it that was created in Europe during the Middle Ages (other than Islamic Spain that is)?
Oh brother... you are joking?
Conflict in Northern Ireland was a separatist struggle over independence.
So... wait a second, it had nothing to do with the fact that there were protestant and catholics bombing the heck out of each other. Aha! That's it!
Nazi Germany wasn't justified via the teachings of Catholicism.
Nazi Germany was the icing on a cake whose ingreadients the Church had very carefully and systematically been working on for many, many years. Hate for the Jew was something teached by the Church on a regular basis. Is should also be noted that many of the participants, on the German side that is, of the concentration camps were ex-priests. This is A FACT, not merely a statement. Check it out, but please do not take it out of context with one of your Justgrabbeditouttamyass Encyclopedia comments.
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The countries you list have huge bias's towards muslims. Muslims typically receive the resources first in such countries and non-muslims are still appressed in one form or other.
Which countries have a huge bias towards muslims? Point them out. Furthermore, wouldn't it be safe to say that there's a huge bias towards Christianism in the USA? If you do not believe me ask Jews and Muslims.
My statement was that not a SINGLE country was islamised by peaceful means unlike some Christian countries.
And that proves that... we're superior? They are bad and we are good? I mean, some Christian countries might've been, arguably, christianized peacefully, but our Christianization has been MUCH MORE MURDEROUS than that of Islam. Look at the Spanish conquest of the Americas. Who did most of the killing? The Catholic Church, mainly, via their Franciscan and Dominican paisans. 90 million indians died. You do the math.
Furthermore, ask yourself this, was our country christianized "peacefully"?
But why must you bring Christianity into this? Isn't the topic here islam? Are you saying they cannot be discussed exclusive of each other?
Well, I brough it up because of the moronically hypochritical nature of your comments. It's like a bald guy making fun or criticizing another bald guy for how shiny the top of his head is. You're just as fucking BALD (let me know if you can decypher the metaphor)!
I honestly think your knowledge/interpretation of the middle ages is a little off.
And how is it a little off? Another baseless accusation.
A lot of the scientists during the caliphate period of Spain were actually Jewish, the jewish wealth as today caused them criticism and in one event slaughter at the hands of the muslims in this idealistic muslim paradise you're pushing :)
No, you're wrong again! I will concede to the fact that many of the intellectual Al-Andalusian were Jewish, it is A FACT. HOWEVER, the Jewish community suffered FAR MORE setbacks from the Catholic Kings than under their Islamic counterparts. Let's not forget about the expulsion of the Sephardic Jews out of Spain in 1492, which was ordered by the Catholic Kings. And this is no isolated incident by any stretch of the imagination. This has been a carefully executed plan which had its zenith in Germany. A plan to keep the whole of Europe Christian, via massacres in which Muslims had NOTHING to do with.
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All this is pure bullshit...as the Caliphates spread across the globe, they sucked up ideas, technologies etc from the countries they invaded and occupied. Now u'll come back that what I just posted is BS and I'll paste some crap from somebody who disputes that and it will go on and on....the bottom line is this, thats all in the past. The Catholic Church and her mistakes are in the past. Islam and her mistakes are killing people now...its views and backward thinking are creating genocide in Africa. I don't remember wearing a white tabard and Maltese cross as I drove across Iraq. But every day the islamist invoke the name of Allah as they kill and wound our troops, their own countrymen and other innocents across the world. Islam today cannot be defended.
hahahahahahahahaahahahah ahaha
lol
hahahahaha
holy shit
I can't believe you typed this and I can't believe the other knuckle head Nordic Supercockface runs with it EVERY chance he gets. Why don't you just admit you hate EVERYONE who isnt like you? You get more respect for at least being honest.
Don't you wonder why people take you less and less seriously with a statement like that? You're blind to the very recent history and present actions of your own society.
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Hhaahahha...do some reading dipshit...as they invaded and killed they obsorbed the cultures they took....I don't have to like these people. I'm proud of my society...how many mass graves have been found by US troops...how many torture chambers...how many suicide bombers have killed people...all muslims. Ur outlook is naive...unlike u I have been there and done that....go hide under ur politically correct rock.
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First, the Muslim world benefited greatly from the Greek sciences, which were translated for them by Christians and Jews. To their credit, Muslims did a better job of preserving Greek text than did the Europeans of the time, and this became the foundation for their own knowledge. (One large reason for this, however, was that access by Christians to this part of their world was cut off by the Muslim slave ships and coastal raids that dominated the Mediterranean during this period).
Secondly, many of the scientific advances credited to Islam were actually “borrowed” from other cultures conquered by the Muslims. The algebraic concept of “zero”, for example, is erroneously attributed to Islam, but it was, in fact, created by the Hindus and merely introduced to the West by Muslims - along with the products of other cultures that were found to be useful to their new rulers.
In fact, conquered populations contributed greatly to the history of “Muslim science” until gradually being decimated by conversion to Islam (under the pressures of dhimmitude). The Muslim concentration within a population is directly proportional to the decline of scientific achievement. It is no accident that the Muslim world has had little to show for itself in the last 600 years or so, since running out of new civilizations to cannibalize.
Third, even the great Muslim scientists and icons were often considered heretics in their time, sometimes for good reason. One of the greatest achievers to come out of the Muslim world was the Iranian scientist and philosopher, al-Razi. His impressive works are often held up today as “proof” of Muslim accomplishment. But what the apologists often leave out is that al-Razi was denounced as a blasphemer, since he followed his own religious beliefs – which were in obvious contradiction to traditional Islam.
Fourth, even the contributions that are attributed to Islam (often inaccurately) are not terribly dramatic. There is the invention of certain words, such as alchemy and elixir, but not much else that survives in modern technology that is of any practical significance. Neither is there any reason to believe that such discoveries would not have easily been made by the West following the cultural awakening triggered by the Reformation.
As an example of this, consider that Muslims claim credit for coffee, since the beans were discovered in Africa (at the time, an important source for Islamic slave trading) and first processed in the Middle East. While this is true, it is also true that the red dye used in many food products, from cranberry juice to candy, comes from the abdomen of a particular female beetle found in South America. It is extremely unlikely that the West would not have stumbled across coffee by now (although, to be fair, coffee probably expedited subsequent discoveries).
In fact, the litany of “Muslim” achievement often takes the form of rhapsody, in which the true origins of these discoveries are omitted - along with their comparative significance to Western achievement. Scientific, medical and technological accomplishments are not something over which Muslim apologists want to get into a pissing contest with the Christian world. Today’s Islamic innovators are known merely for turning Western technology, such as cell phones and airplanes, into instruments of mass murder.
To sum up, although the Islamic religion is not entirely hostile to science, neither should it be confused as a facilitator. The great achievements that are said to have come out of the Islamic world were made either by non-Muslims who happened to be under Islamic rule, or by heretics who usually had little interest in Islam. Scientific discovery tapers off dramatically as Islam asserts dominance, until it eventually peters out altogether.
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Liberal Freethinking Abbasid Caliphs
The so called ‘Islamic Golden Age’ was all about the success of some Muslim-born freethinkers during the period of liberal freethinking Caliphs of Abbasid dynasty. The seventh Abbasid caliph, al-Ma'mun (813-833), was even a greater patron of education and science than Harun al-Rashid. He took considerable pains to obtain Greek manuscripts and even sent a mission to the Byzantine Emperor Leon the Armenian (8l3 to 890) for that purpose. He ordered the translation of these manuscripts. He organized at Baghdad a sort of scientific academy called the House of Wisdom (Bayt al-hilkma), which included a library and an observatory. He encouraged scholars from all kinds (various religions), and an enormous amount of scientific work was done under his patronage. This was the most ambitious undertaking of its kind since the foundation of the Alexandrian Museum (q. v. first half of third century B. C.).
Al-Ma'mun 'Abdallah al-Ma'mun' was born in Baghdad in 786, and he died near Tarsus in 833. Al-Ma'mun was the seventh and greatest 'Abbasid caliph (813-833). His mother and wife were Persians, which explains his Persian and 'Alid proclivities. He was an ardent Mu'tazil, tried to enforce his views by means of violence. He wrote four long letters to explain the Qur'an was created, and he cruelly punished those who dared entertain different views (e.g., Ibn Hannibal). He thus combined in a remarkable way free thought and intolerance. While persecuting those who objected to Mu'tazilism, Jews and Christians were very welcome at his court.
Famous luminaries of Islamic golden age
Now, we shall examine the life history of some very famous luminaries of the Islamic “Golden Age” to evaluate historical truth whether these Muslim-born freethinkers were true believers of Islam or any other religion per se. We shall also examine whether the core teachings of religion Islam had anyway influenced or contributed (as erroneously believed by most Islamists) to the success of medieval Muslim scientists. Let us find out about the religious fervor (if there was any) of some of the most famous ancient so called Islamic scientists and thinkers:
1. Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakarīya al-Rāzi (865-925): was a Persian physician, philosopher, and scholar. According to al-Biruni he was born in Rayy, Iran the year 865 AD and died there in 925 AD. He was perhaps the greatest Muslim-born scientist in the whole of Islamic world. He was one of the great physicians of all times. Al-Razi made fundamental and enduring contributions to the fields of Medicine, alchemy, and philosophy, recorded in over 184 books and articles in various fields of science. He was well-versed in Greek and Indian Medical knowledge and added substantially to them from his own observations. He is the author of the monumental encyclopedia al Hawi, on which he worked for fifteen years. Now, let us read what al-Razi thought about religions in general.
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First, the Muslim world benefited greatly from the Greek sciences, which were translated for them by Christians and Jews. To their credit, Muslims did a better job of preserving Greek text than did the Europeans of the time, and this became the foundation for their own knowledge. (One large reason for this, however, was that access by Christians to this part of their world was cut off by the Muslim slave ships and coastal raids that dominated the Mediterranean during this period).
The Greeks were gone looooong before Islam started spreading toward the west.
Secondly, many of the scientific advances credited to Islam were actually “borrowed” from other cultures conquered by the Muslims. The algebraic concept of “zero”, for example, is erroneously attributed to Islam, but it was, in fact, created by the Hindus and merely introduced to the West by Muslims - along with the products of other cultures that were found to be useful to their new rulers.
In fact, conquered populations contributed greatly to the history of “Muslim science” until gradually being decimated by conversion to Islam (under the pressures of dhimmitude). The Muslim concentration within a population is directly proportional to the decline of scientific achievement. It is no accident that the Muslim world has had little to show for itself in the last 600 years or so, since running out of new civilizations to cannibalize.
Third, even the great Muslim scientists and icons were often considered heretics in their time, sometimes for good reason. One of the greatest achievers to come out of the Muslim world was the Iranian scientist and philosopher, al-Razi. His impressive works are often held up today as “proof” of Muslim accomplishment. But what the apologists often leave out is that al-Razi was denounced as a blasphemer, since he followed his own religious beliefs – which were in obvious contradiction to traditional Islam.
Fourth, even the contributions that are attributed to Islam (often inaccurately) are not terribly dramatic. There is the invention of certain words, such as alchemy and elixir, but not much else that survives in modern technology that is of any practical significance. Neither is there any reason to believe that such discoveries would not have easily been made by the West following the cultural awakening triggered by the Reformation.
As an example of this, consider that Muslims claim credit for coffee, since the beans were discovered in Africa (at the time, an important source for Islamic slave trading) and first processed in the Middle East. While this is true, it is also true that the red dye used in many food products, from cranberry juice to candy, comes from the abdomen of a particular female beetle found in South America. It is extremely unlikely that the West would not have stumbled across coffee by now (although, to be fair, coffee probably expedited subsequent discoveries).
In fact, the litany of “Muslim” achievement often takes the form of rhapsody, in which the true origins of these discoveries are omitted - along with their comparative significance to Western achievement. Scientific, medical and technological accomplishments are not something over which Muslim apologists want to get into a pissing contest with the Christian world. Today’s Islamic innovators are known merely for turning Western technology, such as cell phones and airplanes, into instruments of mass murder.
To sum up, although the Islamic religion is not entirely hostile to science, neither should it be confused as a facilitator. The great achievements that are said to have come out of the Islamic world were made either by non-Muslims who happened to be under Islamic rule, or by heretics who usually had little interest in Islam. Scientific discovery tapers off dramatically as Islam asserts dominance, until it eventually peters out altogether.
And you're saying all of this because......... ??
Ok, so the Muslims did not come up with the concept of "0". Fair enough. They came up with algebra though. Is that enough or should I go a google on their accomplishments? And plenty other things. I mean, it's like saying that the blues or jazz is not a purely American phenomena because the originators were African American slaves hence not considered citizens of the US hence they were not American.
It's total stupidity. Beyond stupid!
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Hhaahahha...do some reading dipshit...as they invaded and killed they obsorbed the cultures they took....I don't have to like these people. I'm proud of my society...how many mass graves have been found by US troops...how many torture chambers...how many suicide bombers have killed people...all muslims. Ur outlook is naive...unlike u I have been there and done that....go hide under ur politically correct rock.
I think you're full of shit when you talk about anything to do with the military. Sorry man, hate to be so blunt about it. If you really do work for the military in some way shape or form and there are others that think like you, than it's no wonder it's a fucking mess.
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Hhaahahha...do some reading dipshit...as they invaded and killed they obsorbed the cultures they took....I don't have to like these people. I'm proud of my society...how many mass graves have been found by US troops...how many torture chambers...how many suicide bombers have killed people...all muslims. Ur outlook is naive...unlike u I have been there and done that....go hide under ur politically correct rock.
Native Americans.
Black slaves.
No there are no religous fanatics in America that twist the word of God to suit their own needs. ::)
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/cross2.jpg)
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I think you're full of shit when you talk about anything to do with the military. Sorry man, hate to be so blunt about it. If you really do work for the military in some way shape or form and there are others that think like you, than it's no wonder it's a fucking mess.
What if everybody here met up, had some beer and some good food, and perhaps listening to some Van Halen?
:D :P
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What if everybody here met up, had some beer and some good food, and perhaps listening to some Van Halen?
:D :P
Only if it's with Roth. :P
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Only if it's with Roth. :P
Yes! ;D
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One can deduce from this thread, that islam is perhaps no more inhumane, than the atroscious acts of christianity thru out the ages....its no wonder religion is in deep shit on both sides.
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What if everybody here met up, had some beer and some good food, and perhaps listening to some Van Halen?
:D :P
Debussey doesn't like Van Halen.
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And you're saying all of this because......... ??
Ok, so the Muslims did not come up with the concept of "0". Fair enough. They came up with algebra though. Is that enough or should I go a google on their accomplishments? And plenty other things. I mean, it's like saying that the blues or jazz is not a purely American phenomena because the originators were African American slaves hence not considered citizens of the US hence they were not American.
It's total stupidity. Beyond stupid!
Religion at base is a bad thing. The benefits are outweighed by the downsides of it, to say nothing of its utter falsehood. Moreover no one is differentiating bewteen the different periods of Islam. There was a sort of Islamic enlightenment during which learning and study was propagated and encouraged but that was in the early middle ages. For some 1000 years or so, Islam has not produced very much of anything of use. There were exceptions of course, but as a rule, the past millenium has reflected poorly on Islam.
Whatever inventions, concepts achieved and strides taken it is a mistake to think that these are reflections of the religion itself. Religion is as the good old Baron D'Holbach says:
If we look back at the begining we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned or disfigured them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them; and that custom, respect and tyranny support them, in order to make the blindness of man serve their own interest. If the ignorance of nature gave birth to Gods, the knowledge of nature is calculated to destroy them.
Religion has ever filled the mind of man with darkness, and kept him in ignorance of his real duties and true interests. It is only by dispelling the clouds and phantoms of Religion, that we shall discover Truth, Reason, and Morality. Religion diverts us from the causes of evils, and from the remedies which nature prescribes; far from curing, it only aggravates, multiplies, and perpetuates them.
Islam= hogwash
US foreign policy= hogwash
hogwash+hogwash= a big problem
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Slapper, it's not my position to prove non-muslim states during the middle ages developed any new technology. YOU are the one making sweeping statements that NOTHING of use was developed outside of muslim controlled countries.
The pro-muslim bias goes far beyond any Christian bias in the USA. I could post information on those countries if you would like?
Yes I am not ashamed to say that western culture is superior. I believe this completely. We're not superior humans tho, every human is equal, but the second you believe that bombing innocent civilians is OK you become inferior.
"Much more murderous than islam", what? The whole Arabic peninsula was islamised by force along with EVERY country that was ever islamised. I'm not saying your statement is false, but where's the evidence? Stop making RIDICULOUS sweeping statements.
Slapper, algebra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus
You're giving credit to islam the works of individual men. Islam didn't develop algebra, a man did who happened to be muslim.
Northern Ireland conflict and Nazism wasn't works of religious Christian wars. I'm not even going there... especially with Nazism.
Ironic calling me hypocritical, must I again repost your opening statement saying islam cannot be criticised at any angle? ::)
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I think you're full of shit when you talk about anything to do with the military. Sorry man, hate to be so blunt about it. If you really do work for the military in some way shape or form and there are others that think like you, than it's no wonder it's a fucking mess.
What because I have no illusions about who or what we're fighting or that I don't fall into some politically correct box...ur world view is both nave and dangerous. Who's doing the killing now...who's doing the suicide bombing...don't dilute the argument with things that happened 400-500 years ago. Don't defend the indefensible because of some misplaced Western guilt.
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Slapper, it's not my position to prove non-muslim states during the middle ages developed any new technology. YOU are the one making sweeping statements that NOTHING of use was developed outside of muslim controlled countries.
The pro-muslim bias goes far beyond any Christian bias in the USA. I could post information on those countries if you would like?
Yes I am not ashamed to say that western culture is superior. I believe this completely. We're not superior humans tho, every human is equal, but the second you believe that bombing innocent civilians is OK you become inferior.
"Much more murderous than islam", what? The whole Arabic peninsula was islamised by force along with EVERY country that was ever islamised. I'm not saying your statement is false, but where's the evidence? Stop making RIDICULOUS sweeping statements.
Slapper, algebra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus
You're giving credit to islam the works of individual men. Islam didn't develop algebra, a man did who happened to be muslim.
Northern Ireland conflict and Nazism wasn't works of religious Christian wars. I'm not even going there... especially with Nazism.
Ironic calling me hypocritical, must I again repost your opening statement saying islam cannot be criticised at any angle? ::)
The shit that some of these guys try to tie in is laughable. Arabs have many cultural issues that cause problems for them..outside just being Muslims. But imagine if these people were all Christains....do u honestly think we'd have these problems. They believ in a religion that praises forced conversions, murdering unbelievers etc etc. This is not the religion of peace.
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This is not the religion of peace.
That's an undoubted fact.
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That's an undoubted fact.
Agreed.
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What because I have no illusions about who or what we're fighting or that I don't fall into some politically correct box...ur world view is both nave and dangerous. Who's doing the killing now...who's doing the suicide bombing...don't dilute the argument with things that happened 400-500 years ago. Don't defend the indefensible because of some misplaced Western guilt.
We're doomed not becasue of some dirt poor slob Muslim but because of people that share your way of thinking. Destruction of an enemy has it's time and place but the threat is manufactured by American foriegn policy and you fail to see it, everytime.
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That's an undoubted fact.
Haha even during the Enlightenment Era a few philosophers praised Islam....
>>>>
enter "The Terror" in which more than 100k people were decapitated in the 12 months of French Revolt...
Let's not mention David Livingston and his observations with Islam and it's blood thirst.
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Haha even during the Enlightenment Era a few philosophers praised Islam....
>>>>
enter "The Terror" in which more than 100k people were decapitated in the 12 months of French Revolt...
Let's not mention David Livingston and his observations with Islam and it's blood thirst.
All religion is primitive bullshit. I don't single them out.
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We're doomed not becasue of some dirt poor slob Muslim but because of people that share your way of thinking. Destruction of an enemy has it's time and place but the threat is manufactured by American foriegn policy and you fail to see it, everytime.
We're doomed because people like u are scared to point fingers at the root causes. Dirt poor muslims with a Koran in one hand and an AK in the other are the reason we're in this mess. Sorry I don't buy into the "blame America" first way of thinking. I think all that fear and self-loathing are going to kill u.
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We're doomed because people like u are scared to point fingers at the root causes. Dirt poor muslims with a Koran in one hand and an AK in the other are the reason we're in this mess. Sorry I don't buy into the "blame America" first way of thinking. I think all that fear and self-loathing are going to kill u.
Your hopeless. youre thinking on matters makes you a great terrorist........ Um soldier, living off taxpayer money.
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Slapper, it's not my position to prove non-muslim states during the middle ages developed any new technology. YOU are the one making sweeping statements that NOTHING of use was developed outside of muslim controlled countries.
Yes, I am saying that muslim Spain was indeed hundreds of years ahead of anyone at the time in Europe. And I'm not pulling this one out of my ass, it is a FACT, the same as the Middle Ages being a black hole of knowledge in European history is also a FACT. It eventually ended, although not until all the Islamic knowledge rubbed off on some of the Christians.
The pro-muslim bias goes far beyond any Christian bias in the USA. I could post information on those countries if you would like?
Go ahead, that's what I asked you before!
Yes I am not ashamed to say that western culture is superior. I believe this completely. We're not superior humans tho, every human is equal, but the second you believe that bombing innocent civilians is OK you become inferior.
And yet, that's exactly what we've done from Vietnam to Cambodia and Irak.
"Much more murderous than islam", what? The whole Arabic peninsula was islamised by force along with EVERY country that was ever islamised. I'm not saying your statement is false, but where's the evidence? Stop making RIDICULOUS sweeping statements.
And I presume the Americas were christianized peacefully? ??? Christianity is behind some of the biggest massacres. This is not a statement I'm making out of the blue, it is a fact. And some of these massacres make the taking of the Arabic penninsula look like a Real World episode.
Slapper, algebra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus
You're giving credit to islam the works of individual men. Islam didn't develop algebra, a man did who happened to be muslim.
Bullshit. Look up "algebra" under Wikipedia.
Northern Ireland conflict and Nazism wasn't works of religious Christian wars. I'm not even going there... especially with Nazism.
You mean to tell me that religion wasn't behind what happened in Northern Ireland? Must be that all that talk about protestants vs. catholics was just a bunch of shit...
Ironic calling me hypocritical, must I again repost your opening statement saying islam cannot be criticised at any angle? ::)
As I said before, you have a right to criticize anything you like, and I do too, hence my responses.
Now, go get some rest and think about how you're going to misquote me once again.
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Yes, I am saying that muslim Spain was indeed hundreds of years ahead of anyone at the time in Europe. And I'm not pulling this one out of my ass, it is a FACT, the same as the Middle Ages being a black hole of knowledge in European history is also a FACT. It eventually ended, although not until all the Islamic knowledge rubbed off on some of the Christians.
Go ahead, that's what I asked you before!
And yet, that's exactly what we've done from Vietnam to Cambodia and Irak.
And I presume the Americas were christianized peacefully? ??? Christianity is behind some of the biggest massacres. This is not a statement I'm making out of the blue, it is a fact. And some of these massacres make the taking of the Arabic penninsula look like a Real World episode.
Bullshit. Look up "algebra" under Wikipedia.
You mean to tell me that religion wasn't behind what happened in Northern Ireland? Must be that all that talk about protestants vs. catholics was just a bunch of shit...
As I said before, you have a right to criticize anything you like, and I do too, hence my responses.
Now, go get some rest and think about how you're going to misquote me once again.
Where's your evidence nothing was developed outside of muslim controlled Spain during the middle ages? It's YOUR position to back up YOUR statements. I disagreed with what you said and you think I'm the one who has to prove I'm correct? Are you an idiot?
Hmm, Vietnam, Cambodia and Iraq are religious wars? How do these compare to islamic conquests? Why are you protecting them?
What are these Christian massacres you speak of? Nazism isn't religion based (you're an absolute tool for believing this).
I'm not refuting the issue about algebra, I'm criticising your position. You said algebra was an islamic invention, it's not, it was developed like the rest of science: off the shoulders of giants, in this case Diophantus a Alexandrian mathematician and by a man, not a religion although in your mind and the minds of muslims an islamic apologists... islam is the critical factor.
I'm absolutely telling you that religion wasn't behind the Northern Ireland conflict. You are absolutely uninformed if you believe so. I'm British and if you want to go into this particular topic further I will be happy to destroy your position. The religious sides gave a name and a face to the opposing parties. You're obviously too idiotic to grasp that concept tho?
And no, you absolutely didn't say that in your first post. You CLEARLY said that islam couldn't be criticised from ANY angle. Did you or did you not say that?
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Great post...how many PIRA or URC guys were going to church on Sunday's. ::)
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Slapper, some muslim bias in the countries you posted:
Turkey:
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=5289
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=4602
Slavery in guy:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/000601.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4250709.stm
(slavery is acceptable in islam)
Chad:
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2007-06/2007-06-06-voa27.cfm?CFID=285397338&CFTOKEN=63886264
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-04/2005-04-15-voa42.cfm?CFID=30092098&CFTOKEN=57244673
Azerbaijan:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/015717.php
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=4553
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/azerbaijan-flattened-sacred-armenian-site-480272.html
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Where's your evidence nothing was developed outside of muslim controlled Spain during the middle ages? It's YOUR position to back up YOUR statements. I disagreed with what you said and you think I'm the one who has to prove I'm correct? Are you an idiot?
No, contraire mon ami, I will not back anything up, IT IS A FACT. It's like me trying to prove the existance of the force of gravity to you. I will not. It is a fucking fact. If you want to know more, READ!
Hmm, Vietnam, Cambodia and Iraq are religious wars? How do these compare to islamic conquests? Why are you protecting them?
No, but that is precisely my point, there is very little "religious" in the senseless killing perpetrated by all these jihadists (you can ask any moderate muslim and ye shall see-and by the way, the moderates are majority in the Islamic world) the same way there is very little "democracy" in Bush's "bringing democracy" to Irak. I mean, you have to read between the lines, you have to connect the dots. You are quick in pointing out the supposed inferiority of those who kill in the name of Allah and yet you refuse to even court the thought that you belief might also sort of also apply to us?. The fact of the matter is that what nowadays is Islam was Communism a couple of years ago and some other thing before that. Hence my mixing religion with Viet Nam and the other countries. In any case, you fail to understand that those who "murder, plunder and rape" are a minority, on both sides, and you cannot judge a religion, a country, a race, a town, a tribe, etc. by the actions of a few.
What are these Christian massacres you speak of? Nazism isn't religion based (you're an absolute tool for believing this).
I'm not refuting the issue about algebra, I'm criticising your position. You said algebra was an islamic invention, it's not, it was developed like the rest of science: off the shoulders of giants, in this case Diophantus a Alexandrian mathematician and by a man, not a religion although in your mind and the minds of muslims an islamic apologists... islam is the critical factor.
The problem is that you do not know what the fuck you're saying by now. If you remember, you first started spewing out brainless shitloads of rethoric insinuating that Islam had created a world of bomb-makers and societies that produce nothing of value (I actually sort of agree on the last point, I believe many muslim societies are so backwards it's not even funny) and I went on to prove to you that SUR-FUCKING-PRIIIIISE: Islam can also harbor the free flow of ideas. It's a fact, it's in the history books. So whether you decide to critisize or recontracritisize my previous point, I don't give a shit nígga! It is a fact. Next!
And yes, I am an Islamic apologist (whatever that means), and I am also a liberal who loves drugs, sex and all that that is impure. ;D ;D ;D ;D What's apologetic in telling the truth?
I'm absolutely telling you that religion wasn't behind the Northern Ireland conflict. You are absolutely uninformed if you believe so. I'm British and if you want to go into this particular topic further I will be happy to destroy your position. The religious sides gave a name and a face to the opposing parties. You're obviously too idiotic to grasp that concept tho?
Of course it had nothing to do with religion. I guess the protestants and catholics were mere myths. Oh! That must be the reason why the REVEREND Ian Paisley was elected first minister in NI... No, religion has nothing to do with it.
And no, you absolutely didn't say that in your first post. You CLEARLY said that islam couldn't be criticised from ANY angle. Did you or did you not say that?
Again, misquoted me again nígga! Wassup wit dat?! Go back and READ what I said.
بيانات الفيلم
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http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=road+to+guantanamo&so=0
muslim = the new guy
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Good post..Gitmo has had the International red cross investigate and by and large they have had no incidents or problems. These are bad folks who were taught to lie about their treatment...its right out of the AQ play book. Slapper ur world view is so naive as to be laughable.
o good gawd..certain mullahs in afghan prolly justify the terrorist acts of suicide bombers with equal vigor :-\
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Epic cruel and unusual punishment..
Epic not giving people a trail..
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We're doomed not becasue of some dirt poor slob Muslim but because of people that share your way of thinking. Destruction of an enemy has it's time and place but the threat is manufactured by American foriegn policy and you fail to see it, everytime.
That's a pretty harsh conclusion based on a prediction of the future that you do not have the neccessary facts to make, nor the computing power in your brain to actually simulate and predict that scenario. Thus, your prediction is completely based on faith, which by no reasonable standard is a precise predictor of the future.
:)
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That's a pretty harsh conclusion based on a prediction of the future that you do not have the neccessary facts to make, nor the computing power in your brain to actually simulate and predict that scenario. Thus, your prediction is completely based on faith, which by no reasonable standard is a precise predictor of the future.
:)
lol
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Debusseys training log
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=206513.0
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No, contraire mon ami, I will not back anything up, IT IS A FACT. It's like me trying to prove the existance of the force of gravity to you. I will not. It is a fucking fact. If you want to know more, READ!
No, but that is precisely my point, there is very little "religious" in the senseless killing perpetrated by all these jihadists (you can ask any moderate muslim and ye shall see-and by the way, the moderates are majority in the Islamic world) the same way there is very little "democracy" in Bush's "bringing democracy" to Irak. I mean, you have to read between the lines, you have to connect the dots. You are quick in pointing out the supposed inferiority of those who kill in the name of Allah and yet you refuse to even court the thought that you belief might also sort of also apply to us?. The fact of the matter is that what nowadays is Islam was Communism a couple of years ago and some other thing before that. Hence my mixing religion with Viet Nam and the other countries. In any case, you fail to understand that those who "murder, plunder and rape" are a minority, on both sides, and you cannot judge a religion, a country, a race, a town, a tribe, etc. by the actions of a few.
The problem is that you do not know what the fuck you're saying by now. If you remember, you first started spewing out brainless shitloads of rethoric insinuating that Islam had created a world of bomb-makers and societies that produce nothing of value (I actually sort of agree on the last point, I believe many muslim societies are so backwards it's not even funny) and I went on to prove to you that SUR-FUCKING-PRIIIIISE: Islam can also harbor the free flow of ideas. It's a fact, it's in the history books. So whether you decide to critisize or recontracritisize my previous point, I don't give a shit nígga! It is a fact. Next!
And yes, I am an Islamic apologist (whatever that means), and I am also a liberal who loves drugs, sex and all that that is impure. ;D ;D ;D ;D What's apologetic in telling the truth?
Of course it had nothing to do with religion. I guess the protestants and catholics were mere myths. Oh! That must be the reason why the REVEREND Ian Paisley was elected first minister in NI... No, religion has nothing to do with it.
Again, misquoted me again nígga! Wassup wit dat?! Go back and READ what I said.
بيانات الفيلم
This post is not worthy of reply.
YOU don't have to prove things? Get real ::) In that case everything I say is fact and I don't have to prove it either.
Islam plays a central role in islamic terrorism and islamic conquests. It provides and facilitates idiots to cause atrocities. Fact fact fact.
Nothing was developed outside of islamic controlled Spain during the middle ages: FALSE.
But why respond to someone who believes everyone else must provide evidence but you're above it? You're as thick as two short planks.
A typical liberal apologist know-it-all.
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This thread is useless without pics
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This post is not worthy of reply.
YOU don't have to prove things? Get real ::) In that case everything I say is fact and I don't have to prove it either.
Islam plays a central role in islamic terrorism and islamic conquests. It provides and facilitates idiots to cause atrocities. Fact fact fact.
Nothing was developed outside of islamic controlled Spain during the middle ages: FALSE.
But why respond to someone who believes everyone else must provide evidence but you're above it? You're as thick as two short planks.
A typical liberal apologist know-it-all.
Look, keep thinking muslims are evil hate mongers who are not worthy of living. I am obviously made of different "stuff". I recognize the the human element (not the religious,) in muslims. They are human beings with the same needs and wants as me. They are fathers, daughters, sons, grandfathers, etc. So, if you choose to make it a point to show us, with or without facts, how inhuman they are, go ahead! You have a right to do that.
Other than that, I gratefully salute your decision to censor your own bullshit. It's about time.
From Russia with love.
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Look, keep thinking muslims are evil hate mongers who are not worthy of living. I am obviously made of different "stuff". I recognize the the human element (not the religious,) in muslims. They are human beings with the same needs and wants as me. They are fathers, daughters, sons, grandfathers, etc. So, if you choose to make it a point to show us, with or without facts, how inhuman they are, go ahead! You have a right to do that.
Other than that, I gratefully salute your decision to censor your own bullshit. It's about time.
From Russia with love.
Sorry, where did I say muslims are hate mongers? I'm criticising islam. Muslims are individuals, islam is a non-humane ideology.
So please reference me.
From the greatest country ever, with love.
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Sorry, where did I say muslims are hate mongers? I'm criticising islam. Muslims are individuals, islam is a non-humane ideology.
So please reference me.
From the greatest country ever, with love.
I though you were going to keep your mouth shut "white power"?
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I though you were going to keep your mouth shut "white power"?
???
Translation: "I'm pinned in a corner and trying once more to put the spotlight on you."
Now ad hominem statements...
Congrats!
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[...]ad hominem[...]
Frenulum clitoridis my friend.
It is far worst to refuse to see the truth than to ignore its existance.
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Frenulum clitoridis my friend.
It is far worst to refuse to see the truth than to ignore its existance.
Ignore?
Who's ignoring the fact you once said in this thread that islam cannot be criticised from any angle?
Who's ignoring their own assumptions? You assume I'm painting all muslims with the same brush, but I didn't and you're not able to backup your stance.
Have a nice day senorita.
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Ignore?
Who's ignoring the fact you once said in this thread that islam cannot be criticised from any angle?
Who's ignoring their own assumptions? You assume I'm painting all muslims with the same brush, but I didn't and you're not able to backup your stance.
Have a nice day senorita.
Like I said, READ what I said, and ye shall comprehend.
Have a great Easter day mon ami.
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Nordic Superman dixit: "Did they also describe how islam openly condones slavery, polygamy, child molestation and muslim supremacism?". Your first statement insinuates that Islam... well, you be the judge. My response was that we're in no position to critizize Islam, from any angle. My use of Guantánamo was just a recent example of that.