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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on April 20, 2008, 10:55:59 PM
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Figures. ::)
ACLU weighs in on Texas polygamist custody case
SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- The Texas branch of the American Civil Liberties Union said it was concerned that the basic rights of the children and mothers connected to a Texas polygamist ranch were violated during a recent raid and custody hearing.
At the hearing Friday, Judge Barbara Walther ordered 416 children connected to the YFZ (Yearning For Zion) ranch kept in state custody.
Walther made her ruling after two days of testimony at the hearing, which was aimed at determining whether child welfare authorities properly removed the children from the sect's Texas ranch. The judge said she found sufficient evidence for Texas Child Protective Services to retain custody of the children.
The ACLU said it had a representative at the court hearing and the organization was concerned about human rights violations.
"While we acknowledge that Judge Walther's task may be unprecedented in Texas judicial history, we question whether the current proceedings adequately protect the fundamental rights of the mothers and children," Terri Burke, executive director of the ACLU of Texas, said in a written statement.
"As this situation continues to unfold, we are concerned that the constitutional rights that all Americans rely upon and cherish -- that we are secure in our homes, that we may worship as we please and hold our places of worship sacred, and that we may be with our children absent evidence of imminent danger -- have been threatened," Burke said.
The group's courtroom observer, Lisa Graybill, added: "We recognize that this balancing act is difficult, but we are concerned that government may not be complying with the Constitution or the laws of Texas in the execution of its mandate, from how the raids were conducted to whether the current process protects basic rights."
The ACLU statement did not list any specific instances of human rights or constitutional violations, and ACLU representatives did not immediately return calls seeking comment.
Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said her department is in the process of finding "temporary placement" for all the children. "What we did was warranted and in the best interest of the children," she said. "This is not about religion -- this is about keeping children safe from abuse."
The hearing stems from an April 4 raid of the ranch, which authorities said was triggered by phone calls in late March from a 16-year-old officials referred to as Sarah. The caller said she had been beaten and forced to become a man's "spiritual" wife.
On Thursday, child protection supervisor Angie Voss testified that she and other investigators encountered several pregnant teenagers at the YFZ ranch, which is in Eldorado, Texas, about 40 miles outside San Angelo. The girls called each other "sister wives," Voss said, and believed it was acceptable to be "spiritually united" with a man at any age. "It was the belief that no age was too young to be married," she said.
Members of the ranch have denied the girl, supposedly named Sarah Jessop Barlow, exists, and authorities have yet to find the caller. However, Texas Rangers are pursuing a Colorado woman as a "person of interest" regarding the phone calls that touched off the raid.
Authorities on Friday said a search of Rozita Swinton's home in Colorado Springs resulted in evidence that possibly links her to phone calls made about the YFZ ranch. Swinton, 33, has been charged in Colorado with false reporting to authorities, but police said that the arrest was not directly related to the Texas case.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/20/polygamy.sect/index.html
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You really are a douche. Any right-minded human being could see that making women and children suffer (taking children away from mothers) for the what are basically the sins of the fathers is fucked up. And that's exactly what's happening here. But all you've got to say is "Figures ::)"
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As much as I despise the ACLU at times they do keep an eye on the government.
Since most Americans are too apathetic or busy watching American Idol we need them.
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Funny, they scoff at the laws, live in a cult and probably scam the govt but that's totally fine with the ACLU. No surprise since these are the same people who vigorously defend NAMBLA. Bad enough these people are retards but the ACLU making political mileage off their suffering will probably make things worse.
These brainwashed nitwits will end up in another cult making more babies at the end of the day.
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Funny, they scoff at the laws, live in a cult and probably scam the govt but that's totally fine with the ACLU. No surprise since these are the same people who vigorously defend NAMBLA. Bad enough these people are retards but the ACLU making political mileage off their suffering will probably make things worse.
These brainwashed nitwits will end up in another cult making more babies at the end of the day.
How about you post after you figure out what it is the ACLU can do? ::)
It's not their purpose to police FLDS, but I guess that point's too subtle for you.
Maybe you can use w8lftr's post to set you in the right direction.
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How about you post after you figure out what it is the ACLU can do? ::)
It's not their purpose to police FLDS, but I guess that point's too subtle for you.
Maybe you can use w8lftr's post to set you in the right direction.
I'm slow today. :) Perhaps you can explain how they choose cases. How exactly would sending brainwashed kids to their brainwashed parents be a good thing? I will read your answer real slow and look up any big words.
Please don't give me the standard "ACLU(NAMBLA) is needed to check the govornment's power, especially in extreme cases" anti-govt response. I'd like to read something more creative, if you will.
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Funny, they scoff at the laws, live in a cult and probably scam the govt but that's totally fine with the ACLU. No surprise since these are the same people who vigorously defend NAMBLA. Bad enough these people are retards but the ACLU making political mileage off their suffering will probably make things worse.
These brainwashed nitwits will end up in another cult making more babies at the end of the day.
Correct. Have you seen interviews of the women? Scary. When asked whether girls are forced to marry, they refuse to answer. Bunch of sick perverts and pedophiles. Why wouldn't the ACLU be all over this after their NAMBLA defense? Not surprised at all.
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Correct. Have you seen interviews of the women? Scary. When asked whether girls are forced to marry, they refuse to answer. Bunch of sick perverts and pedophiles. Why wouldn't the ACLU be all over this after their NAMBLA defense? Not surprised at all.
christian based brainwashing and mind control at its best
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Correct. Have you seen interviews of the women? Scary. When asked whether girls are forced to marry, they refuse to answer. Bunch of sick perverts and pedophiles. Why wouldn't the ACLU be all over this after their NAMBLA defense? Not surprised at all.
I (hopefully) think all of us here can agree that what was happening INSIDE the polygamist compound was wrong and despicable. However, from what I've read and heard on the news the issue is whether or not the police had sufficient probable cause to raid the compound. It has now been brought to the attention of the authorities that the woman who called the police wasn't even in the compound and has a history of false reports.
Set aside the polygamy issue for a second and take a look at the bigger picture.
If there were any laws broken (and it looks like there probably was) and the police broke the law and violated the rights of the American citizens inside that compound then the prosecution's case has been jeopardized.
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I (hopefully) think all of us here can agree that what was happening INSIDE the polygamist compound was wrong and despicable. However, from what I've read and heard on the news the issue is whether or not the police had sufficient probable cause to raid the compound. It has now been brought to the attention of the authorities that the woman who called the police wasn't even in the compound and has a history of false reports.
Set aside the polygamy issue for a second and take a look at the bigger picture.
If there were any laws broken (and it looks like there probably was) and the police broke the law and violated the rights of the American citizens inside that compound then the prosecution's case has been jeopardized.
Ohhhh, so they should have kept marrying and abusing girls until a proper case was built. Thank you for explaining the NAMBLAACLU mission to me.
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Ohhhh, so they should have kept marrying and abusing girls until a proper case was built. Thank you for explaining the NAMBLAACLU mission to me.
Thanks for seeing the big picture.
Now all those scumbag pedophiles have a greater chance of getting away with the crimes they committed.
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I don't care if pedophiles rights are violated. How exactly does that fit into the bigger picture?
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I don't care if pedophiles rights are violated. How exactly does that fit into the bigger picture?
Because if the police don't follow procedure and violate the rights of the accused then the bad guys get away on technicalities.
I want pedos in prison just as bad as you do, drkaje.
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Because if the police don't follow procedure and violate the rights of the accused then the bad guys get away on technicalities.
I want pedos in prison just as bad as you do, drkaje.
Balancing due process versus children being abused is just not a cause they should have undertaken. I'll pretty much always associate them with NAMBLA and find it telling they're associated with another high-profile case where children abused. I wouldn't be surprised if the organisation were started by a pederast. :)
The Govt should go even further and add pedos to the Patriot Act under weapons of ass destruction.
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I (hopefully) think all of us here can agree that what was happening INSIDE the polygamist compound was wrong and despicable. However, from what I've read and heard on the news the issue is whether or not the police had sufficient probable cause to raid the compound. It has now been brought to the attention of the authorities that the woman who called the police wasn't even in the compound and has a history of false reports.
Set aside the polygamy issue for a second and take a look at the bigger picture.
If there were any laws broken (and it looks like there probably was) and the police broke the law and violated the rights of the American citizens inside that compound then the prosecution's case has been jeopardized.
Yes the police need to have probable cause, but I can't simply set aside the polygamy issue. Or the rape issue. Or the pedophilia issue. Let's assume the girl who called and reported these perverts was not really in the compound. At the end of the day, what difference does that make? Were they supposed to wait for a "real" victim to come forward before exposing these people?
I'll be very surprised if any sort of problem with the search of the compound prevents the prosecution of people for rape, polygamy, etc. If the cops broke the law, then punish the cops, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The people in the compound who were exploiting and abusing children need to be locked up.
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Balancing due process versus children being abused is just not a cause they should have undertaken. I'll pretty much always associate them with NAMBLA and find it telling they're associated with another high-profile case where children abused. I wouldn't be surprised if the organisation were started by a pederast. :)
The Govt should go even further and add pedos to the Patriot Act under weapons of ass destruction.
:-\
Former Head of Virginia ACLU Arrested on Child Pornography Charges
Charles Rust-Tierney, Age 51, is Currently a Youth Sports Coach
By Eric Fleming, published Feb 24, 2007
Charles Rust-Tierney, age 51, a former president of the Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), was arrested Friday by federal agents, for allegedly possessing child pornography. Rust-Tierney, according to ABC News, which has seen a copy of the criminal complaint, allegedly used his personal email address and credit card in order to obtain access to a child pornography website.
. . .
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/159994/former_head_of_virginia_aclu_arrested.html
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ACLU can be a bunch of drama queen bitches.
But
They keeps repubs AND dems honest about abusing rights.
They kept clinton honest and they kept bush honest and they'll keep obama/mccain honest.
We need them, and if you disagree, you're ignorant.
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ACLU can be a bunch of drama queen bitches.
But
They keeps repubs AND dems honest about abusing rights.
They kept clinton honest and they kept bush honest and they'll keep obama/mccain honest.
We need them, and if you disagree, you're ignorant.
:-\
Former Head of Virginia ACLU Arrested on Child Pornography Charges
Charles Rust-Tierney, Age 51, is Currently a Youth Sports Coach
By Eric Fleming, published Feb 24, 2007
Charles Rust-Tierney, age 51, a former president of the Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), was arrested Friday by federal agents, for allegedly possessing child pornography. Rust-Tierney, according to ABC News, which has seen a copy of the criminal complaint, allegedly used his personal email address and credit card in order to obtain access to a child pornography website.
. . .
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/159994/former_head_of_virginia_aclu_arrested.html
Need I say more?
Fallshinewebdesign,
No one has ever kept a polititian honest.... especially not a lawyer.:)
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not honest - but unable to shut down rights completely, or abuse freely.
every politician abuses power to some degree, even if small.
ACLU helps those small cases which 1) address small abuses before them become big, and 2) bring light to problems that fall thru cracks.
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:-\
Former Head of Virginia ACLU Arrested on Child Pornography Charges
Charles Rust-Tierney, Age 51, is Currently a Youth Sports Coach
By Eric Fleming, published Feb 24, 2007
Charles Rust-Tierney, age 51, a former president of the Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), was arrested Friday by federal agents, for allegedly possessing child pornography. Rust-Tierney, according to ABC News, which has seen a copy of the criminal complaint, allegedly used his personal email address and credit card in order to obtain access to a child pornography website.
. . .
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/159994/former_head_of_virginia_aclu_arrested.html
:-\ there are obviously weirdos right, left and center
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/29/us/29florida.html
September 29, 2007
Town Is Shaken After Prosecutor’s Arrest in a Child-Sex Sting
By ABBY GOODNOUGH
GULF BREEZE, Fla., Sept. 25 — To neighbors here, J. D. Roy Atchison was a deft federal prosecutor, an involved father and a devoted volunteer, coaching girls’ softball and basketball teams year in and year out.
His wife is a popular science teacher; his youngest daughter, an honors student who was on her high school homecoming court last year. Their house, with rocking chairs on the porch, oaks in the yard and a wrought-iron fence, is among the prettiest in town.
But in an instant last week, the community pillar became an object of community loathing. Mr. Atchison, 53, was arrested getting off a plane in Detroit on Sept. 16 and charged with the unthinkable. The authorities there said he was carrying a doll and petroleum jelly, and that he had arranged with an undercover agent to have sex with a 5-year-old girl.
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:-\ there are obviously weirdos right, left and center
True.
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31 of 53 teen girls at FLDS ranch are pregnant or had baby
MICHELLE ROBERTS | April 28, 2008 09:14 PM EST |
SAN ANTONIO — More than half the teenage girls taken from a polygamist compound in west Texas have children or are pregnant, state officials said Monday.
A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. He didn't specify how many are pregnant.
"It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive," he said.
State officials took custody of all 463 children at the ranch controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, saying a pattern of teen girls forced into underage "spiritual" marriages and sex with much older men created an unsafe environment for the sect's children.
Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.
State officials said earlier that they had found girls who were pregnant or had children of their own at the ranch, but they had not provided more than rough estimates until Monday.
Church officials have denied that any children were abused at the ranch and say the state's actions are a form of religious persecution.
FLDS spokesman Rod Parker said he does not believe the CPS count is accurate. He said that from talking to ranch residents, he believes at least 17 of the girls may actually be adults but have been labeled by CPS as minors.
Agency officials have called into question claims of adulthood among the girls since the raid and have in some cases disputed documentation provided, saying the girls look younger than 18. Because many FLDS members share similar names and have complicated family relationships, identifying all of the children taken into custody has been a challenge.
"I do have serious questions about how they are determining age in there," said Parker, who is trying to get a better count from FLDS families.
He noted though that since law enforcement confiscated every document that might show family relationships as part of its weeklong raid, the sect is at a disadvantage in proving names and ages.
The latest information from CPS comes with "absolutely nothing to back it up other than it's coming from them, and they think we should trust them," Parker said.
All the children are supposed to get individual hearings before June 5 to help determine whether they'll stay in state custody or that parents may be able to take steps to regain custody of their children.
Civil-liberties groups and lawyers for the children have criticized the state for sweeping all the children, from nursing infants to teen boys, into foster care when only teen girls are alleged to have been sexually abused.
No one has been charged since the raid, which was prompted by a series of calls to a domestic abuse hotline, purportedly from a 16-year-old forced into a marriage recognized only by the sect with a man three times her age. That girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the call was a hoax.
On Monday, CPS also revised its total count of children in state custody to 463, up one from Friday. Azar said the change resulted from finally getting the children out of the San Angelo Coliseum and into foster facilities around the state, where they were able to get a more accurate count.
Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split _ 197 girls and 196 boys _ but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.
Azar said the numbers could still change slightly because authorities have not seen documentation on all the children and have struggled to positively identify everyone.
On Monday, all were assigned caseworkers, who will work only on FLDS cases.
The sect, which broke from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints more than a century ago, believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven. Its leader, Warren Jeffs, is revered as a prophet. Jeffs was convicted last year in Utah of forcing a 14-year-old girl into marriage with an older cousin.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/28/31-of-53-teen-girls-at-fl_1_n_99097.html
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I (hopefully) think all of us here can agree that what was happening INSIDE the polygamist compound was wrong and despicable. However, from what I've read and heard on the news the issue is whether or not the police had sufficient probable cause to raid the compound. It has now been brought to the attention of the authorities that the woman who called the police wasn't even in the compound and has a history of false reports.
Set aside the polygamy issue for a second and take a look at the bigger picture.
If there were any laws broken (and it looks like there probably was) and the police broke the law and violated the rights of the American citizens inside that compound then the prosecution's case has been jeopardized.
It's refreshing to see your intelligent posts.
Keep up the good work.
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I'm slow today. :) Perhaps you can explain how they choose cases. How exactly would sending brainwashed kids to their brainwashed parents be a good thing? I will read your answer real slow and look up any big words.
Please don't give me the standard "ACLU(NAMBLA) is needed to check the govornment's power, especially in extreme cases" anti-govt response. I'd like to read something more creative, if you will.
I'm not sure you need a dictionary for this... but you certainly need a civics lesson. :)
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I (hopefully) think all of us here can agree that what was happening INSIDE the polygamist compound was wrong and despicable. However, from what I've read and heard on the news the issue is whether or not the police had sufficient probable cause to raid the compound. It has now been brought to the attention of the authorities that the woman who called the police wasn't even in the compound and has a history of false reports.
Set aside the polygamy issue for a second and take a look at the bigger picture.
If there were any laws broken (and it looks like there probably was) and the police broke the law and violated the rights of the American citizens inside that compound then the prosecution's case has been jeopardized.
This sounds like the Waco incident (David Koresh) in some ways. At least as far as probable cause is concerned.
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This sounds like the Waco incident (David Koresh) in some ways. At least as far as probable cause is concerned.
Decker, what is your opinion on how the federal government handled that?
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Decker, what is your opinion on how the federal government handled that?
I thought it was handled in the worst possible way. Team Clinton couldn't have screwed that up more if it tried. Governmental heads should have rolled on that one. That's the least that could have been done for the murders committed.
What's your take?
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I thought it was handled in the worst possible way. Team Clinton couldn't have screwed that up more if it tried. Governmental heads should have rolled on that one. That's the least that could have been done for the murders committed.
What's your take?
Pretty much the same. Add the Gonzales fiasco in Miami and Reno has quite the colorful resume.
Edit: Since that happened way back in '93 I only remembered the "highlights". Took the time to research the events that took place to refresh my memory. What a clusterfvck.
And people wonder why a growing number of citizens don't trust their government. :-\
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Pretty much the same. Add the Gonzales fiasco in Miami and Reno has quite the colorful resume.
Did you see Janet Reno appear on SNL? I bet the Waco people didn't think she was that funny. I mean if they were still alive.
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Did you see Janet Reno appear on SNL? I bet the Waco people didn't think she was that funny. I mean if they were still alive.
Only when Will Ferrell spoofed her. :)
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Did you see Janet Reno appear on SNL? I bet the Waco people didn't think she was that funny. I mean if they were still alive.
hahahahaha
remember when the helicopter pics came out later, that showed the FBI firing inciniderary devices?
lol.. and remember when they MELTED the door because all the bullet holes were going IN?
oh, and the best part, when they bulldozed and BURIED the entire compound the NEXT DAY without investigating a thing.
oh man, I bet those waco people were ROFLing at that one.
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hahahahaha
remember when the helicopter pics came out later, that showed the FBI firing inciniderary devices?
lol.. and remember when they MELTED the door because all the bullet holes were going IN?
oh, and the best part, when they bulldozed and BURIED the entire compound the NEXT DAY without investigating a thing.
oh man, I bet those waco people were ROFLing at that one.
Could be. . .a cover up!
Bill Hicks drove to the Waco Compound site and did a running commentary on it.
"If the FBI's motivating factor for busting down the Koresh compound was child abuse, how come we never see Bradley tanks smashing into Catholic churches?"
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Could be. . .a cover up!
Bill Hicks drove to the Waco Compound site and did a running commentary on it.
"If the FBI's motivating factor for busting down the Koresh compound was child abuse, how come we never see Bradley tanks smashing into Catholic churches?"
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
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LMAO...
have you ever seen a crime scene where dozens died, where they did no crime scene analysis? They just toted out the bodies, then they bulldozed it.
I can only think of one other crime scene in history where they didn't follow federal law...
911.
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Good article about some of the legal issues:
Posted on Sun, May. 04, 2008
The FLDS argument will not hold up
By MARCI HAMILTONSpecial to the Star-Telegram
When Texas authorities entered the Yearning for Zion (YFZ) Ranch, one of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) compounds, on April 3, they did so using a warrant based on calls from a person who alleged that she was an underage girl being subjected to physical and sexual abuse, including rape, at the ranch.
Once the authorities entered, they discovered pregnant underage girls, girls with more than one child, papers indicating that rampant polygamy was occurring at YFZ, and even a document involving cyanide poisoning. The authorities then intelligently decided to remove all of the children from a situation that posed obvious and serious danger to them.
Lawyers for the FLDS members have been arguing in the press that the entry and removal of the children constituted a "massive" violation of due process. Others have argued that the authorities' actions represent the unfair targeting of one religion.
Each of these arguments is singularly misguided.
The due-process argument
Whether or not the caller was legitimate, the important point is the lack of any government misconduct and the serious evidence of crimes to children.
There are now allegations that the calls to the authorities spurring the raid were placed by a woman who was not within the YFZ compound. Even if proven, however, this claim would not affect the validity of the authorities' actions.
Absent clear evidence that the state fabricated the call or misled the judge who granted the initial search warrant, neither of which seems remotely plausible, the entry cannot be faulted on constitutional grounds. Once the authorities were inside, the evidence of criminal behavior was so plainly apparent that further investigation was more than warranted.
No self-respecting child protective agency could have departed from that compound without taking all of the children away. The authorities revealed last week that 31 out of the 53 underage YFZ girls have been pregnant and/or are pregnant. Imminent risk of harm -- the legal standard that bound the authorities -- was apparent; indeed, a decision to leave the children in that setting would have opened up the state to liability.
The key point here is that children were being abused and were very likely to be abused in the future. And, worse, this was occurring in an atmosphere in which the adults seemed incapable of apprehending the depth of the criminal behavior in question.
It is just as though the state had entered a drug den on the basis of reports about one child's abuse and discovered a bevy of children in a position likely to lead to neglect and mistreatment. In such a hypothetical, surely no one would contest the appropriateness of removing the children. The religious cloak does not forestall the proper operation of the child protective authorities.
Despite the large number of children who were taken, what happened in Eldorado is no different from any other situation in which the state investigates alleged abuse, substantiates a risk of harm and takes action to protect all those children who might be subject to such harm. Arguments that children should not be separated from their mothers simply have no purchase when it is apparent that the mothers are incapable of protecting their children from sexual or other abuse, or unwilling to do so.
Before criticizing the Texas authorities who have witnessed the operation of the FLDS firsthand, one must stop to think about what was going on in this compound. This is a conspiracy of adults to commit systematic child sex abuse, where the men and the women force their girls to be "married" to much older men in order to have many children, and where they groom their boys to be the next generation of abusers, and then abandon some of their own boys in order to keep the numbers favorable for the abusing men.
What is most striking is that not a single adult from the ranch or the sect has been willing to admit to the obvious cycle of severe child sexual abuse. One of the most chilling statements I have ever heard -- and I have focused upon organizational child abuse, including within the Roman Catholic Church -- was that of the mother who would not answer a reporter's question about whether girls were married off to much older men, but rather asserted that whatever happened there happened out of "love."
Widespread knowledge exists about the practices of the FLDS Church, which has been practicing polygamy and child sex abuse for more than a century. This organization traces its roots to the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, who mandated polygamy in the mid-19th century. (The mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormon Church, publicly renounced the practice at the end of the 19th century.)
FLDS members reside not only at YFZ but also at compounds in Arizona, Utah, South Dakota and British Columbia. The recent Utah trial of FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs documented the practice of elders arranging and encouraging the sexual abuse of underage girls. (Jeffs was ultimately apprehended for his brazen Mann Act violations, consisting of transporting girls across state and international boundaries to be delivered to FLDS men, after the FBI finally placed him on its 10-most-wanted list.) So did the earlier trial of Tom Green in Utah.
Moreover, numerous well-documented publications have detailed terrifying and illegal behaviors, including Carolyn Jessops' Escape, her account of escaping the sect; Andrea Emmitt Moore's account of 10 fundamentalist polygamist sects, God's Brothel; and Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven. I wrote about the FLDS in my book God vs. the Gavel: Religion and the Rule of Law and have been writing columns on the FLDS for years.
If the already-disseminated knowledge about the FLDS is not enough, there were reports last week alleging an FLDS baby graveyard with 200 graves between the Arizona and Utah compounds. Advocates are telling us that these graves are the result of brutal abuse of young children to obtain their obedience, and probably medical neglect and the genetic deformities that result from generations of inbreeding.
Yet many have asserted a violation of due process, as though the authorities are required to be intentionally ignorant about communities within their jurisdiction.
FLDS lawyers have been floating to the media and public the bizarre notion that authorities were required to enter the compound with a mental blank slate, as though they knew absolutely nothing about the FLDS. It is a position that defies common sense.
Although authorities need probable cause for a particular raid, they do not have to act stupid once they are inside a criminal organization, whether it is a religious group, the mob or a drug cartel. It is law enforcement's obligation to be informed about likely criminal conduct in their jurisdiction. That includes orchestrated child abuse.
One must give the Texas authorities credit for putting the interests of the children first. Utah and the FBI have focused on one man at a time, an approach that appears to have done next to nothing to stop the entrenched cycle of abuse within the system. Authorities in Arizona, Utah and South Dakota, where other FLDS compounds are situated, have made it very clear that they would never follow the Texas authorities' lead of taking all of the children away from obvious danger.
Indeed, the Utah attorney general was peeved that Texas would make such a bold move, because it could undermine his increasingly friendly relations with the FLDS in Utah. Arizona's attorney general sent out a news release essentially telling Arizonans not to expect any dramatic rescue of children obviously at high risk of abuse, because Arizona law just does not permit it.
The latter has yet to explain precisely why he believes that children at imminent risk of harm cannot be brought to safety in that state. (And if he believes that is the law, surely he should call for a change in it!) In South Dakota, the authorities say they are awaiting some triggering event that will permit them to check on the girls and women.
It really is remarkable: American law enforcement routinely infiltrates criminal organizations in which the issues are drugs and money, but when the issue is widespread child abuse, they "have to" sit on their hands until somehow, some way one of those on the inside of a cult invites them inside.
If any court finds that the rescue of the FLDS children -- in light of the evidence gathered on the basis of a good-faith warrant during the raid and the evidence now piling up -- is a due process violation, it will be a giant step backward for the civil rights of children everywhere. Let's hope that erroneous ruling will never be made.
Predictably, the American Civil Liberties Union has chosen to take the side in opposition to the children, publicly wringing its hands over the process as it applies to the adults. It is one of the most underexamined phenomena in the American civil rights movement that the organization that has considered itself such a champion of individual rights has had such a consistently insensitive attitude toward the bodily suffering of children.
We are in the midst of a civil rights movement for children, yet the ACLU is woefully lagging behind.
The free exercise argument
The even weaker argument circulating, once again encouraged by the FLDS lawyers, is that the rescue somehow violated the FLDS' freedom of religion. There are two underlying theories, neither of which has much traction -- for good reason, because both should be quickly dismissed as totally unconvincing.
First, the FLDS argue that they have been "targeted" in violation of the First Amendment. The argument takes a First Amendment concept and grossly misapplies it.
The government cannot choose a particular religion to be treated differently from other religious (or similarly situated secular) organizations, but the government is not prohibited from stopping criminal conduct even if the only ones engaging in the behavior are religious or if the conduct is restricted to a religious organization's property. In short, a government may not discriminate against a group, but the Constitution does not force authorities to willfully close their eyes to criminal conduct.
This raid was about child abuse. It is no different from authorities entering a drug den or a private home where there are credible accounts of abuse. The child protective services universe is sufficiently stable by now that whoever is sexually abusing a child can be made to stop.
The best interest of the child determines government action. That is obviously what is happening in this case, and the attempts to misleadingly shift the focus to the perpetrators' religious identity is not justified by law or basic decency. There is simply no religious defense to criminal behavior. That this behavior was so heinous makes using the cover of religion all the more appalling.
Second, the FLDS argues that the government simply cannot interfere with a religious enclave and that it should have autonomy from the government's interference.
This latter theory has been touted by more mainstream religious organizations in recent years, especially those battling clergy abuse, but courts have not had much patience with the notion that autonomy includes a right to abuse children. I would hope that the mainstream religious organizations that have been pushing "church autonomy" are having second thoughts as they watch this particular group embrace their vision to justify systemic and systematic child sexual abuse.
Finally, some would argue that the age of sex and marriage is merely "cultural," and therefore the government has no business interfering with this sort of religious group. That argument is hopelessly behind the times, as it treats children as property rather than persons. It was not long ago that they were, in essence, nothing but property.
The Texas authorities give one hope that children are moving surely and steadily into the category of persons -- persons who have civil rights that protect their bodily integrity against adults who would use their position of power to take what these children cannot freely give.
Marci Hamilton is author of Justice Denied: What America Must Do to Protect Its Children. A version of this essay was originally published at findlaw.com, where you can find an archive of her columns on ch
http://www.star-telegram.com/245/story/620718.html
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Good article about some of the legal issues:
...
When Texas authorities entered the Yearning for Zion (YFZ) Ranch, one of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) compounds, on April 3, they did so using a warrant based on calls from a person who alleged that she was an underage girl being subjected to physical and sexual abuse, including rape, at the ranch.
...
We have to let parents be parents. What's with this governmental interference? That's government for you!
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We have to let parents be parents. What's with this governmental interference? That's government for you!
Yeah. How dare they interfere with the rape of 13 year-old girls. Not surprised the ACLU is all over this one.
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Yeah. How dare they interfere with the rape of 13 year-old girls. Not surprised the ACLU is all over this one.
Right, Mr. "I want government intruding in my life"...
Where are we going to be if we don't let people be all they can be as parents?
That doggone ol' ACLU sides with the parents? I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.
It's obvious big government is taking over.
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Right, Mr. "I want government intruding in my life"...
Where are we going to be if we don't let people be all they can be as parents?
That doggone ol' ACLU sides with the parents? I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.
It's obvious big government is taking over.
Nah. Call me "Mr. I want the government to arrest these rapists and lawbreakers."
Maybe the ACLU should team up with Planned Parenthood? They could start a campaign of aborting black babies fathered by adult males, with underage girls, and get free legal representation when the big bad government tries to interfere with their operation.
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Nah. Call me "Mr. I want the government to arrest these rapists and lawbreakers."
Maybe the ACLU should team up with Planned Parenthood? They could start a campaign of aborting black babies fathered by adult males, with underage girls, and get free legal representation when the big bad government tries to interfere with their operation.
"BIG GOVERNMENT" Beach Bum!
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Polygamy roll shows 21 wives for one member
By Susan Roesgen
CNN
(CNN) -- In the secretive, illegal world of American polygamy, life has been good to 67-year-old Wendell Loy Nielsen of Eldorado, Texas.
By his own account, Nielsen has 21 wives -- and 36 children.
His oldest wife is 13 years older than he is, and his youngest wife is 43 years younger -- she's just 24.
His oldest child is 21 years old, and his youngest is a 6-month-old baby.
That's one of the longer, single-family genealogies uncovered in a CNN review of the "Bishop's List" -- a series of documents listing the age, marital status, children and address of the members of the Yearning for Zion polygamist ranch in Eldorado, Texas.
. . . .
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/05/polygamist.families/index.html
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It makes you wonder......
How much freedom from on going accountability should places like this have?
On one hand you have the argument that people should be able to live the way they choose and if they decide to choose to live this way no one should bother them.
Then you have the issue of people's rights being violated and being kept from speaking out and alerting the authorities.
I say, places like this should have a system that allows the freedom and easy safe access of it's members to alert anyone of miss doings. Aside form that, that's all the government needs to be involved with other then it already is.
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It makes you wonder......
How much freedom from on going accountability should places like this have?
On one hand you have the argument that people should be able to live the way they choose and if they decide to choose to live this way no one should bother them.
Then you have the issue of people's rights being violated and being kept from speaking out and alerting the authorities.
I say, places like this should have a system that allows the freedom and easy safe access of it's members to alert anyone of miss doings. Aside form that, that's all the government needs to be involved with other then it already is.
For me the primary issue is the involvement of children. No one has the right to abuse kids. People are free to do whatever they want as consenting adults, so long as they don't break the law.
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For me the primary issue is the involvement of children. No one has the right to abuse kids. People are free to do whatever they want as consenting adults, so long as they don't break the law.
I agree. but when kids belong to a commune like society it's hard to monitor any abuses or even have the kids recognize they are being abused.
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I agree. but when kids belong to a commune like society it's hard to monitor any abuses or even have the kids recognize they are being abused.
True. Sounds like that's precisely what happened with these people. They groom these kids from birth.
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May 8, 11:16 PM EDT
Church records offer rare look inside polygamist families
By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press Writer
SAN ANTONIO (AP) -- Hand-scrawled records taken from a polygamist sect are helping untangle the spider-web network of family relationships at the Yearning For Zion ranch, where some husbands had more than a dozen wives.
The church records offer a peek into an intricate culture in which men related to the sect's prophet, Warren Jeffs, enjoyed favored-husband status in the distribution of wives and all young women were married by 24.
An Associated Press analysis of the records, which authorities seized in a raid last month, show that by the time a girl reached 16, she was more likely to be married than to live as a child in her father's household. The same was not true for boys.
Ben Bistline, a former member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who was raised in the sect, said Jeffs or other church leaders decided who got married and when. Jeffs is imprisoned on an accomplice-to-rape charge in Utah.
"It's just at the whim of the leader," said Bistline, who said successful businessmen who donate heavily to the sect or who are close to the prophet are generally favored. "There's a lot of nepotism involved."
The records, released by court officials last week, include 37 families totaling 507 individuals. At the time the lists were written from March through August of 2007, most of the people were living at the YFZ Ranch, though others were in homes along the Utah-Arizona line.
Two-thirds of listed households were polygamous, with the brothers of Jeffs and a senior elder claiming the most wives, up to 21 in one case.
Men still in their 20s made up most of the dozen monogamous marriages.
The husbands and wives were married in the FLDS, and none is believed to hold Texas marriage licenses.
Of the 19 youths listed as being 16 or 17, none of the boys are husbands, while nine of the girls are listed as wives. Only one 17-year-old girl remained unmarried.
Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult.
The young men in monogamous marriages will likely seek additional wives as they age, Bistline said.
"A man has to have at least three wives to get to the highest degree of heaven," he said.
After the raid, the state took custody of 464 children belonging to FLDS families, including one born later to a teen mother. Authorities alleged that teenage girls were being systematically abused and forced into underage marriages, while boys were being groomed to become future abusers.
Church officials insist they are being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
FLDS spokesman Rod Parker said the records indicate that many sect members "are either monogamous couples or adult couples, and that incidence of underage marriage is actually not very prevalent."
No criminal charges have been filed, though state authorities continue to investigate.
"Our investigation and prosecution will go where the evidence leads," Jerry Strickland, a spokesman for the attorney general's office, said in an e-mail statement.
As in many states, government-recognized marriage in Texas to more than one person at the same time is a felony. But the law also apparently applies to anyone who "purports to marry" - language used in Utah to target polygamists who marry in religious services but don't get marriage licenses.
Ken Driggs, an Atlanta lawyer who is an expert on the FLDS and the legal history of polygamy, said any prosecution of FLDS members for multiple marriages would be difficult because of the law's vagueness, questions of jurisdiction and the community's refusal to testify in previous instances.
"They have a tricky case in front of them," Driggs said.
The records are each labeled "Father's Family Information Sheet, Bishop's Record," and appear to be a kind of church census, with wives and children listed below the male head of household. The age and location of each individual is included, though some are incomplete.
Church elder Wendell Nielsen is listed as having the most wives at 21. Two of Jeffs' brothers also had numerous wives. His brother, Nephi Jeffs, had 14 wives listed. Isaac Jeffs, the brother who was driving Warren Jeffs when he was arrested outside Las Vegas in August 2006, had 10 wives listed.
The records, taken from a safe in an office at the ranch, were among the truckload of documents, computer disks and family Bibles seized from the ranch during a six-day search for records that showed underage marriages. Parker said he was unsure how complete the records are or what purpose they served.
Authorities raided the compound April 3 after a series of calls to a domestic-abuse hot line that purportedly came from a 16-year-old girl who was forced into a relationship at the ranch with a man three times her age. The girl has not been found, and authorities are investigating whether the call was a hoax.
Jeffs was convicted of being an accomplice to rape for arranging a marriage in Utah between a 14-year-old follower and a 19-year-old man. Jeffs awaits trial on other charges in Arizona.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMISTS_FAMILY_TREE?refresh=1
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I gotta admit, I'm pretty concerned about this shit too. I can't possibly see how they haven't shredded all law to do this and certainly crapped on the constitution. If they have definitive just cause on the abuse of a child sure, go in, let the law do their thing. But in this case, they just presumed guilt of every single family :-\ Are they fucking serious? That just doesn't fly ::) At least it didn't turn into another Wacko ::)
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Oh shit, somebody's been accused of breaking the law. Let's take his underage wife into custody and separate her from her kid. That'll show 'em.
I swear, BB has got to be a prize-winning douche.
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Here you go callous. Read up now. :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510NJ479P4L._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)
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Indefensible. >:(
Polygamist Sect Custody Hearings on Hold as Parents Await Court Decision
State Has Photos of Leader Warren Jeffs Kissing a Girl Alleged to Be 12
May 28, 2008
Texas officials say they have additional evidence of abuse among the hundreds of children who were taken into state custody last month from a polygamist sect's West Texas ranch.
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/TheLaw/ht_jeffs_080528_mn.jpg)
Lawyers for Texas Child Protective Services entered photos into evidence at a custody hearing on Friday that they said showed sect leader Warren Jeffs with a then-12 year old girl who they claimed was his spiritual wife.
(ABC)
More PhotosSome of that evidence, including testimony from an alleged child bride shown in photographs kissing sect leader Warren Jeffs, was to be presented Tuesday at a custody hearing for the child of one of the sect mothers.
But before any of the evidence, which state officials would not describe, was entered into evidence, the state and sect lawyers resolved the case, agreeing that Child Protective Services will maintain custody of Louisa Bradshaw's baby, who was born in state custody.
Bradshaw was initially taken into custody because officials thought she was a minor, although they have since said that she is older than 18. She will be allowed to stay with her baby in a shelter.
Photographs showing Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints leader Warren Jeffs kissing a girl, who Texas state officials have said was 12 at the time she entered into a spiritual marriage with Jeffs, were introduced as evidence in Bradshaw's case last week. The photographs, dated 2006, say "one year anniversary."
Child Protective Services has said Bradshaw and her husband lived in the same building as the girl, on the Yearning for Zion Ranch. Patrick Crimmons, a CPS spokesman, said the girl in photo the is in Child Protective Services custody.
Rod Parker, an attorney and spokesman for the church, said the photos were "just a publicity stunt by CPS because they feel their case caving in around them."
Last week, an appellate court ordered the release of hundreds of sect children, saying the state had not presented enough evidence that they were in immediate danger of abuse to justify keeping them in state custody.
The state has appealed to the Texas Supreme Court. If upheld, the ruling would unravel the largest child welfare case in U.S. history.
. . .
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4948876&page=1
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Hahahahah. I can tell your neanderthal ass what's going to happen next. The Texas Supreme Court will finesse some rules to determine when a child should be separated from its parents, and then remand to the lower court to apply. Most of the kids will be back with their parents...
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Why am I not surprised that the soulless, morally ambivalent callous has no problem with a man getting married to and raping 12 and 13 year old girls? ::)
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Go find someone else to play your "let's change the subject and make interminable pointless posts" game with, Douche Bum. :-*
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::) As usual, callous has nothing of substance to add. An empty suit.
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Well looks like calmus was right. Send the kids back to be raped.
Texas high court: Removal of sect kids 'not warranted'
SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- Texas officials had no right to remove about 460 children from a polygamist sect, the state Supreme Court ruled Thursday.
The Texas Supreme Court agreed with a lower court's ruling, that the state's Child Protective Services division did not present ample evidence that the children were being abused.
The state said it removed the children last month from the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, because in interviews with those living there, officials found what they called a "pervasive pattern" of sexual abuse through forced marriages between underage girls and older men.
The high court ruling could clear the way for the children to be returned to their families. The sect subscribes to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.
"We are not inclined to disturb the court of appeals' decision," the ruling said. "On the record before us, removal of the children was not warranted." Watch what the ruling may mean »
The court's 6-3 ruling came in the case of 38 mothers who had appealed the removal of their children, but attorneys in the case have said the reasoning behind the court rulings can be applied to the removals of all the children from the ranch during the raid, which began April 3.
About 460 children were removed, although 20 were found in court to be adults.
It's unlikely the children will be returned to their homes soon, because it's unclear which child belongs to which parent. A DNA testing order by the district court is incomplete.
And even if the children do return to the YFZ Ranch, the case may not be over. The justices noted that Texas law gives the district court "broad authority to protect children short of separating them from their parents and placing them in foster care."
Examples of those conditions might be a court order saying a child must remain in a certain geographical area or an order removing an alleged perpetrator from the child's home, the district court said.
An FLDS member applauded the Texas Supreme Court ruling Thursday.
"When we'd given up hope on the system and we'd made a plea to every politician there is, it ends up being some kindhearted attorneys that were willing to take up this fight," Willie Jessop said outside the courthouse in San Angelo after the ruling was issued.
"Put these families back. There has been a catastrophic emotional and physical trauma to these families, permanent damage that will be left on them for a lifetime. Two wrongs do not make a right, and the court has the ability to load these children up and return them." Watch Jessop urge that the children be returned »
He emphasized that the fellow FLDS members he knows do not allow their children to marry unless they are of age.
"I would like to call on [Child Protective Services] and the state of Texas to end this nightmare," said Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City, Utah, attorney who has been a spokesman for FLDS families. "It is time for the children to come home. It is time for the state of Texas to lay down arms here and solve this problem."
State officials have said the sect, with its polygamist beliefs, groomed young boys on the ranch to be abusers. FLDS members deny any sexual abuse at the ranch and claim that they are being persecuted because of their religion.
The district court said in its ruling that CPS did not demonstrate that all the children on the ranch faced imminent danger, as necessary for their removal.
CPS said it will work to reunite children covered under the ruling with their parents.
"We are disappointed, but we understand and respect the court's decision and will take immediate steps to comply," a statement reads. "Child Protective Services has one purpose in this case -- to protect the children. Our goal is to reunite families whenever we can do so and make sure the children will be safe."
CPS will continue working with the district court to make sure that the children remain safe and that the agency's actions comply with the ruling.
In the Texas Supreme Court decision, the three dissenting justices said in an attached opinion that they agreed that the state had no right to remove the young boys from the ranch but that the district court did not err in electing to remove pubescent girls from the ranch and keep them in state custody.
The pubescent girls are "demonstrably endangered," Justice Harriet O'Neill wrote.
FLDS leader and "prophet" Warren Jeffs, 52, is in a Utah prison, serving two consecutive terms of five years to life after being convicted on two charges of being an accomplice to rape in connection with a marriage he performed in 2001. He also faces trial in Arizona on eight charges, including sexual conduct with a minor, incest and conspiracy.
Jeffs' trial thrust the normally secretive FLDS into the national spotlight, and the raid on the YFZ Ranch last month intensified scrutiny on the sect.
In addition to the YFZ Ranch, the FLDS is prevalent in the twin border communities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona.
It was not immediately clear whether the Texas Supreme Court ruling would be appealed. In theory, it could be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, said CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, but the court would be unlikely to weigh in because the case relates exclusively to Texas law.
Texas attorney Barbara Elias-Perciful supported the state in her filing. She has been a guardian ad litem -- an attorney representing children's interests -- in child protection cases for 16 years and is also the director of Texas Lawyers for Children.
"This case involves the systematic rape of minor children -- conduct that is institutionalized and euphemistically called 'spiritual marriage,'" she wrote. "Typically, there is no media coverage of the horrific acts sexual predators commit against children ... if the media showed the actual events of adult males demanding sex with 11-year-old girls, there would be no one questioning the graphic danger of returning these children to their home at this time."
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/29/texas.polygamists/index.html
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Looks like a delayed return to the rapist compound.
Judge delays reunion for sect families
SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- A Texas judge on Friday refused to sign an order returning more than 300 children seized from a polygamist community, saying she wanted the mothers involved to sign the order first.
Members of the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints decried Judge Barbara Walther's decision, which followed a Texas Supreme Court ruling that the removals were unwarranted.
"The kids have been terrorized and put in the custody of the state for weeks and weeks," FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said Friday after the hearing to determine how to return the children.
"Every effort has been made to bring relief," Jessop said outside the courthouse. "It doesn't need to be a problem to go pick up the kids. It doesn't need to be any more difficult than picking them up after school."
The 3rd District Court of Appeals ruled this month that officials with Child Protective Services erred in removing the children from the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, effectively overturning Walther's ruling that the children remain in state custody.
On Thursday, the Texas Supreme Court let the ruling stand, clearing the way for the children to be reunited with their families. See a timeline of the FLDS case »
But in a conference Friday to discuss the children's fate, Walther left the courtroom without signing the final draft, saying she would do so after the mothers in the case signed it.
"It places a huge burden on attorneys who are already overburdened to begin with. It's not going to happen over the weekend even under the best circumstances," said Laura Shockley, an attorney for some of the children.
Shockley said Walther did not set a date for another hearing.
A draft of the agreement was circulated Friday to the media while Walther met with parties in the case.
The draft said the order applies to 330 children. It was not immediately known how the state would handle return of the other children, who number about 110.
Under the tentative order, the children would start to return Monday under a number of conditions, including that they remain under state supervision while a criminal investigation ensues.
Child welfare officials removed the children from the sect ranch based on a perceived pattern of abuse in the community that they say included forcing underage girls to marry older men.
Officials expressed concern that FLDS families might leave Texas if their children were returned.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/30/polygamist.order/index.html
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Well looks like calmus was right. Send the kids back to be raped.
Weird that TX, a state where repubs control everything, allows for child rape so easily.
Weird.
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I would assume that they are allowed back because allegations are false. Are all the girls who are married of legal age in Texas?? If this is true then oh well.....
One thing i just remembered is that even tho the men get married in their church to many girls....only the first wife counts legally...and the rest of the wives arent seen as married by the state. This allows them to be classified as single with lots of children and they live off of state aid for food stamps and utility bills paid and monies....
The men drop by to have sex, get a meal and collect the check. The next nite its a different "Spiritual" wife...... :-\
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I would assume that they are allowed back because allegations are false. Are all the girls who are married of legal age in Texas?? If this is true then oh well.....
One thing i just remembered is that even tho the men get married in their church to many girls....only the first wife counts legally...and the rest of the wives arent seen as married by the state. This allows them to be classified as single with lots of children and they live off of state aid for food stamps and utility bills paid and monies....
The men drop by to have sex, get a meal and collect the check. The next nite its a different "Spiritual" wife...... :-\
Yup, often the case.
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Pains me to quote the daughter (Lisa Bloom) of the most irritating woman in America (Gloria Allred), but I agree with her:
HAYS: It didn't because a good judicial conservative follows the statute. And the Texas statute, as written, requires that there be more of an evidentiary showing and it requires that reasonable efforts be made to avoid removal, such as having the alleged perpetrators leave the premises.
You know, there were nine votes here to return the boys and the younger girls and six votes to return the teenage girls. And that's a pretty strong vote count.
KING: Lisa Bloom, what's your read?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY, "OPEN COURT," TRUTV: Well, I agree with Justice Harriet O'Neill, the sole female member of the Texas Supreme Court, who was joined by two of her colleagues, who says look, what about the pubescent girls?
They are in serious danger of sexual abuse. There are at least five girls that were taken into custody who were underage and pregnant or already mothers, 16 or younger.
It's very clear what's going on in that community. There was testimony that spiritual marriage could take place at any age. At first menstruation, girls were eligible for pregnancy. Warren Jeffs is already a convicted felon, convicted of accomplice to rape Elissa Wall. The young girl -- now a woman -- who prosecuted him was 14 when she was forced to have sex with this underage marriage.
KING: But...
BLOOM: We know what's going on in the cult. They have to protect the children. I applaud the State of Texas for trying to do something.
KING: But, Lisa, all those children -- what about all the other children that have parents and weren't beaten?
There were no individual charges, as the courts say. This is a case by case basis in every district and jurisdiction in the country.
What about them?
BLOOM: We're not talking about beatings. We're talking about a culture that compels underage girls over and over again to have sexual relations they don't want to have. You know, this is America. We don't tolerate extremist sects that say this is what we're going to do to young girls. They have rights as American citizens not to have sexual relations...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0805/29/lkl.01.html
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Oh brother.
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They are in serious danger of sexual abuse. There are at least five girls that were taken into custody who were underage and pregnant or already mothers, 16 or younger.
It is well known that the girls are forced to marry old foggies and cousins. Holy hell...upon their first period!!!!!!! >:(
DNA tests still have to be done on the fathers also, right??
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It is well known that the girls are forced to marry old foggies and cousins. Holy hell...upon their first period!!!!!!! >:(
DNA tests still have to be done on the fathers also, right??
No, in Douche Bum's brave new world, we let the fathers run around untroubled while we wreak our vengeance upon the mothers, child-mothers and children.
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::) Says callous, the chief child rape defender. Are you like a paralegal with the public defender's office?
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::) Says callous, the chief child rape defender. Are you like a paralegal with the public defender's office?
It's gonna be ok, grumpy. ;D
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No, in Douche Bum's brave new world, we let the fathers run around untroubled while we wreak our vengeance upon the mothers, child-mothers and children.
Any guy that has sex with an underage child should be castrated immediatly...no trial.
Just take an axe, a treestump, and a clothespin to stop the blood from squirting and ruining my nice clothes.
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No, just use the callous solution: send the kids back to the rape compound and send the parents to "counseling." ::)
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Back to the rape compound so the girls can be groomed for their "spiritual husbands." ::)
Judge Orders Return of 430 Children to Polygamist Sect
Monday, June 02, 2008
SAN ANGELO, Texas — A Texas district judge on Monday ordered the immediate return of the more than 400 children taken from a polygamist sect's ranch, bringing a sudden end to one of the largest custody cases in U.S. history.
Texas District Judge Barbara Walther, responding to a state Supreme Court ruling last week, signed the order filed by attorneys for the parents and Child Protective Services, allowing the parents to begin picking their children up from foster care facilities around the state almost immediately.
The order requires the parents to stay in Texas, to attend parenting classes and to allow the children to be examined as part of any ongoing child abuse investigation. But it does not put restrictions on the children's fathers, require that polygamy is renounced or that parents live away from the Yearning For Zion Ranch.
"We're really grateful to get the order signed," said Willie Jessop, an elder for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the sect that runs the ranch.
Two months in foster care has taken a toll on the children, who previously lived an insular life on the self-contained ranch where church teachings dominated the way of life, and he hoped for a less restrictive order, he said, without elaborating.
Return to the Ranch Polygamist Retreat The order requires that parents allow CPS to make unannounced visits to the families and that they notify CPS if they plan to travel more than 100 miles from their homes.
The Supreme Court on Thursday affirmed an appeals court ruling ordering Walther to reverse her decision in April putting all children from the ranch into foster case. The Supreme Court and the appeals court rejected the state's argument that all the children were in immediate danger from what it said was a cycle of sexual abuse of teenage girls at the ranch.
Half the children sent to foster care were no older than 5.
The FDLS denies any abuse of the children and says they are being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
The Third Court of Appeals last week ruled that the state failed to show that any more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and had offered no evidence of sexual or physical abuse against the other children.
Roughly 430 children from the ranch are in foster care after two births, numerous reclassifications of adult women initially held as minors and a handful of agreements allowing parents to keep custody while the Supreme Court considered the case.
It's not clear how many might return to the ranch right away. Many of the parents have purchased or rented homes in Amarillo, San Antonio and other places around the state, where the children were placed in foster facilities.
The FLDS, which teaches that polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway sect of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361345,00.html
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A revelation. Girls will no longer be forced into a "marriage" unless they can legally consent (age 18). Funny how a little intervention changed their "spiritual" beliefs.
Polygamist sect clarifies marriage policy
Story Highlights
NEW: Parents rush to detention centers, leave with children
FLDS spokesman says church will not consent to underage marriage
Judge delays release of 16-year-old girl identified as victim of sexual abuse
Texas Supreme Court ruled state had no right to remove kids from sect ranch
SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- A polygamist sect under fire over allegations of underage marriage will now allow women to wed only when they are old enough to give consent under state law, a spokesman said Monday.
The legal age in Texas to marry without parental consent is 18.
"The church is clarifying its policy on marriage," said Willie Jessop, a spokesman for the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
He told reporters the church would advise FLDS families "neither request nor consent" to the marriage of underage girls, though he stopped short of saying the church ever violated the law.
"In the FLDS church, all marriages are consensual. The church insists on appropriate consent," he said.
. . .
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/02/texas.polygamists/index.html
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your thread sucks
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Criminal Case Against Polygamist Texas Sect Members Possible
Wednesday, June 04, 2008
SAN ANGELO, Texas — The polygamist sect raided by authorities two months ago has its children back. But with a criminal investigation under way into allegations of sexual abuse, the splinter group's troubles are not over.
Child-welfare officials have alleged that members of the sect pushed underage girls into marriages with older men, and while the last of 440 children seized from the ranch were returned to their parents Wednesday, prosecutors could still bring criminal charges.
"There have been criminal problems located out there," said Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran, who was with state troopers and child welfare authorities when they raided Yearning For Zion Ranch in west Texas on April 3.
The Texas Department of Public Safety and the attorney general's office have taken over the criminal investigation at the request of authorities in the rural ranching community. While they confirm they are investigating, neither will say how long the investigation may take.
Obtaining the DNA evidence and the testimony necessary to prove such a case could prove difficult.
DNA evidence acquired in the custody case is off limits to criminal investigators unless child welfare investigators find wrongdoing or law enforcement gets court permission, and a prosecution probably would go nowhere without at least one willing witness in the insular ranch community. Members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints had a strong distrust of outsiders even
Sect Families Reunite Return to the Ranch Polygamist Retreat Child-welfare officials had said that 31 teenage girls at the ranch were pregnant or had had children, but nearly all those the mothers turned out to be adults.
No more than five minors who are pregnant or have given birth were identified during the child custody hearings. Under Texas law, girls younger than 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult.
Children from the ranch were allowed to leave foster care after a judge bowed to a Texas Supreme Court ruling last week that the state overreached by taking all of them even though evidence of sexual abuse was limited to five teenage girls. Half the children taken from the ranch were no older than 5.
All 440 children were returned to parents by Wednesday, Child Protective Services spokesman Patrick Crimmins said.
The high court ruling and state District Judge Barbara Walther's orders returning the children do not affect the criminal investigation, which involves several trailer loads of documents confiscated during a raid lasting nearly a week. Authorities removed all documents and photos they say might show relationships between underage girls and older men.
"It's going to take awhile. With any criminal case we investigate, we do as much as we possibly can before turning the case over to the prosecutors," said public safety spokeswoman Tela Mange.
Last week, investigators from the attorney general's office took DNA from Warren Jeffs, the jailed prophet of the FLDS church, saying they were looking for evidence of relationships between Jeffs and four girls ages 12 to 15.
At a custody hearing, state attorneys introduced a photo they said was a wedding picture showing Jeffs embracing a girl and kissing her on the mouth.
Jeffs has been convicted in Utah as an accomplice to rape in the marriage of an underage sect member. He faces similar charges in Arizona, though no trial date has been set.
Authorities have DNA from all the children and many of the parents at the YFZ Ranch — 603 samples in all — but those results cannot be used by law enforcement without a finding of wrongdoing by child abuse investigators or a court order because they were taken from parents and children as part of a civil custody case, not with a criminal search warrant.
Even if the DNA shows children were born to underage girls and adult men, any prosecution will probably be difficult unless a victim testifies.
Utah successfully prosecuted three FLDS members and got a no-contest plea from Jeffs after years of investigation, but Arizona authorities have had to drop some charges because the victim quit cooperating.
Without a victim's testimony, it's impossible to establish jurisdiction for prosecution, a key element that has prevented some charges of members who frequently move among the sect's residences in Arizona, Utah, Texas and elsewhere.
In any sexual assault case, it can be difficult to persuade victims to assist in prosecutions, but such cases are even more challenging when they involve a community as insular as the FLDS, said Paul Murphy, a spokesman for the Utah Attorney General's Office.
Sect members are raised and work within the community, developing few financial or personal resources away from other members.
Texas authorities raided the YFZ Ranch after three calls to a domestic abuse hot line, purportedly from a 16-year-old mother who said she was being abused by her middle-age husband. The calls — which Doran said continued even after all the children were removed from the ranch — are now being investigated as a hoax.
The children and their mothers were taken to a shelter in San Angelo, where they were later separated. E-mails obtained by The Dallas Morning News under Texas public records laws show state officials had proposed sending them to another location because of fears of violence. A judge rejected conducting the separations in Midlothian, and the children were taken from their mothers without incident.
The e-mails also showed state officials' concerns that some of the mothers were planning a "run" from the shelter before they were separated, something FLDS elder Willie Jessop called absurd.
"We never, never did anything other than to comply and to endure what they put us through," he told the newspaper in a story published Wednesday.
The FLDS, which believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway sect of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago. Jessop said this week that the church would not preside over marriages between sect members who were not of legal age.
He sidestepped questions about whether such marriages ever occurred but has said the sect has been unfairly portrayed.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,363341,00.html
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Sect leader Jeffs is charged with child sex assault
ELDORADO, Texas (AP) -- Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs was indicted in Texas on a count of child sexual assault, a first-degree felony. Five members of the sect also face charges.
Attorney General Greg Abbott says four of Jeffs' followers are charged with one count of sexually assaulting girls under the age of 17.
One of the four faces an additional charge of bigamy.
Abbott says a fifth follower is charged with three counts of failure to report child abuse.
The charges follow an ill-fated child custody case in which more than 400 children were placed in foster care. The Texas Supreme Court ruled child welfare authorities overstepped in taking all the children from their parents even though many were infants and toddlers.
Abbott earlier Tuesday went into a small community building where a grand jury was meeting in the West Texas town of Eldorado.
Women and girls in prairie dresses, including a 16-year-old daughter of Jeffs, were escorted into the same building, while lawyers and members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints crowded a bench in front of the courthouse.
The grand jury met for one day in June without issuing indictments in the case. Timeline: Warren Jeffs and the FLDS »
Weeks later, the Texas Supreme Court directed the judge overseeing the case to return the children to their parents, saying the state had overstepped its authority because it didn't show that any more than a handful of teenage girls may have been abused.
FLDS leaders have consistently denied that there was any abuse at the ranch and vowed not to sanction underage marriages.
Grand jury proceedings are supposed to be secret, but documents released as part of the separate child custody case involving the FLDS children have revealed some of the evidence collected by law enforcement during the weeklong raid of the ranch.
Among the hundreds of boxes of photos, documents and family Bibles, investigators found photos of Jeffs kissing and intimately embracing several apparently teenage girls.
A journal entry purportedly from Jeffs attached to a report by a child advocate indicates that he married his daughter to a 34-year-old man the day after she turned 15. The girl turns 17 on Saturday and has denied being married, though the child advocate report indicates that intimate notes between the girl and man were also found in the raid.
The girl, who playfully climbed a giant oak tree while waiting to be called to testify last month, left the community building frowning as she talked to her lawyer. The Associated Press is not identifying her because authorities believe she may be a sexual abuse victim.
Under Texas law, a girl younger than 17 cannot generally consent to sex with an adult. Bigamy is also illegal in Texas, although FLDS members in plural marriages did not get Texas marriage licenses.
In addition to discussions of the girl's marriage, the Jeffs journal entry indicates that he blessed marriages of two other underage sect members.
The FLDS, which believes that polygamy brings glory in heaven, is a breakaway sect of the mainstream Mormon church, which officially renounced polygamy more than a century ago.
Jeffs, who is revered as a prophet, is jailed in Arizona awaiting charges related to the marriages of young girls. He was convicted in Utah of rape as an accomplice for his role in the marriage of a 14-year-old last year.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/22/flds.grand.jury.ap/index.html
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Fight for 8 FLDS children renewed
By TERRI LANGFORD Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle
Aug. 6, 2008, 12:36AM
SAN ANGELO — Texas Child Protective Services moved Tuesday to return eight polygamist sect children to foster care, the first such action since the Texas Supreme Court ordered these children and more than 400 others returned to their parents in May.
The six girls and two boys, ages 5 to 17, are in four Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints households that either refuse to condemn underage marriages in writing or are actively involved with the practice, according to CPS affidavits filed in San Angelo.
Asked if the eight children are in danger, Charles Childress, a CPS attorney from Austin who filed the agency's motions, would only say: "That's what the judge is being asked to decide."
A Sept. 25 hearing before state District Judge Barbara Walther has been scheduled.
The four petitions for state conservatorship, or custody, of the six girls and two boys were filed after CPS caseworkers say they could not get the parents of the eight to sign what is known as a safety plan.
The plan requires parents' promise to keep the child safe from harm and meet certain CPS requirements such as providing the child's parentage and medical documents.
On its face, Tuesday's filing for custody is no different than hundreds of others filed in Texas courts each year when parents retreat from the CPS bargaining table.
But it is the supporting documents, including caseworker affidavits, letters and diaries from FLDS members, including sect president Warren Jeffs, that offer a rare peek inside the state's sexual abuse investigation that started March 28 with a purported phone call from inside the sect's West Texas ranch to a women's shelter in San Angelo.
That call, now considered a hoax, sparked the largest child abuse investigation in the nation and locked the child welfare agency in a battle with FLDS, the largest breakaway Mormon sect in the country.
Flurry of child marriages
Among the evidence CPS workers filed are documents that show a flurry of underage marriages involving at least 10 girls in 2005 and 2006. Of those, two were 12 years old, two were 14, five were 15 and one was 16.
Interviews with the some of the eight children by CPS workers showed that they believed there was nothing wrong with underage marriage.
A 14-year-old who was "spiritually married" three weeks after her 12th birthday to Jeffs, the 52-year-old FLDS president, gave a CPS worker a "disgusted look," when the worker asked her if a 40-year-old man impregnating a 13-year-old girl was sexual abuse.
"(The girl) stated that it isn't what CPS is making it to be," CPS caseworker Ruby Gutierrez wrote in her affidavit. "She said that the marriages are pure. Further, (the girl) stated that this can't be a crime because Heavenly Father is the one that tells Warren (Jeffs) when a girl is ready to get married and that he is only following the word of Heavenly Father."
The eight children include two daughters of Dr. Lloyd Hammon Barlow and Alice Faye Barlow, one of the physician's four wives.
Barlow was indicted on July 22 on a charge of failure to report sex abuse. In an interview last May with The Salt Lake Tribune, the doctor insisted that sexual abuse did not occur at the FLDS' Yearning For Zion Ranch near Eldorado.
In an affidavit written by CPS caseworker Paul Dyer that was filed with the court Tuesday, Barlow said he had delivered many babies to minor girls.
"Dr. Barlow was asked if he had ever delivered children to girls under the age of 18 on the ranch and he said many times both on this ranch and in other places," Dyer wrote.
Elders handle abuse cases
Barlow also informed CPS that domestic violence is something handled internally by the FLDS.
"(A caseworker) asked Dr. Barlow what a young woman's recourse was should she be a victim of domestic violence," Dyer wrote. "Dr. Barlow stated that the church elders would handle the situation first."
Three of the children who may be removed belong to Jeffs' second-in-command, Frederick Merril Jessop, and his wife, Barbara. One of them was the girl married to Jeffs at age 12.
Last month, Jeffs and four followers: Raymond Merril Jessop, 36; Allan Eugene Keate, 56; Michael George Emack, 57; and Merril Leroy Jessop, 33, were indicted on sexual assault of a child charges.
Jeffs is in custody in Arizona where he is awaiting trial for his hand in arranging underage marriages. The other five surrendered a week ago.
Separated from mother
One of the children, a 10-year-old girl, told caseworkers how she had been moved from her mother's home in Utah to her uncle Merril Jessop's house. It was at least three years — until after the government raid — before the girl finally saw her mother again.
"(The girl) said that she misses her mother very much and when she asked her uncle Merril Jessop about where her mother is living he has told her it was none of her business so she has just gotten to the point that she had stopped asking," a caseworker wrote.
The girl told CPS when she grows up she wants to "be a good mother and have as many children as the Heavenly Father wants her to have."
She also told CPS officials that Merril Jessop "would make the decision as to when she would get married, at what age, and who she would marry."
Calls to FLDS spokesmen Willie Jessop and Rod Parker were not immediately returned.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5926113.html
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It is well known that the girls are forced to marry old foggies and cousins. Holy hell...upon their first period!!!!!!! >:(