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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Painlayer69 on May 05, 2008, 09:50:12 AM
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How far away in weight should my close grip bench be to my regular flat bench? I dont know if im just useing to much triceps in my bench or what.
Any info will help thanx.
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To be honest I don't think it really matters - my close grip bench is only about 50lbs less than my normal flat bench. The trouble is, this is an estimate because I don't do flat benches due to it placing unnecessary stress on my front delts - I do inclines instead to take the pressure off that part of the delts somewhat. My delts don't really come into play too much with close grips because my triceps are always fully extended before I feel it in my delts anyway so I acn get away with doing them on a flat bench.
So to answer your question, don't worry about the flat benches "using too much tricep" because they are all worked to some extent anyway. You might find you are nearly as strong on close grips benches anyway if your triceps are naturally strong - don't worry about it.
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Thanx man really appreciate it and actually my close grip is about 50lbs away also. so that helps alot.
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Usually 6-8 inches on the thumbs. Keep the elbow flaring to a minimum.
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Usually 6-8 inches on the thumbs. Keep the elbow flaring to a minimum.
imo..
More Flaring = more triceps involvement & elbow/wrist strain
Less Flaring (elbows in) = more stress on the chest/shoulders, still triceps are involved but not as effective
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By elbow flaring do you guys mean how far the elbows come out at the bottom of the movement?????
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bingo
more or less, flaring means elbows moving away(pointing away) from the body at the bottome of the movement
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Ok thats what i thought it meant just checking.
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imo..
More Flaring = more triceps involvement & elbow/wrist strain
Use an E-Z curl bar, will get mainly the pros not the cons of flared elbow presses.
As far as the distance, trial & error with all variations, then decide which work best for you.
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bro. dont worry about the weight. worry about feeling the muscles work. I would go heavy but not heavy where your using your chest. your going to use less weight b/c the tris are small muscle group compared to the chest. If you go close grip its good advice to keep your elbows in. when you go close grip you put a lot of stress of the elbows
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imo..
More Flaring = more triceps involvement & elbow/wrist strain
Less Flaring (elbows in) = more stress on the chest/shoulders, still triceps are involved but not as effective
sometimes.
if you tuck your elbows, and the bar hits your chest low then i agree because there's minimal elbow bend and the wrists are above the elbows. but if your elbows are tucked and you hit your nipple line, part of the "press" is nearly an extension. it's why flared elbows work, your elbows aren't right under your wrists.
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Yeah man i was just wondering if i was actually useing to much tri's in my bench by asking that quistion, But i do appreciate the advice, I got one quistion though do i want to actually hit my chest with the bar on close grips or not??
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Yeah man i was just wondering if i was actually useing to much tri's in my bench by asking that quistion, But i do appreciate the advice, I got one quistion though do i want to actually hit my chest with the bar on close grips or not??
I've always brought it down to my chest, but I usually hold it there for a second or two then press up. I always bring the bar to my sternum which keeps the wrists above the elbows and flare them out when it comes down as Magoo and those guys are saying.
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im a big believer in "time under tesion", btu i also use rest pause sets after i hit failure. so i would say...dont touch your chest for the bulk of your set, but at the end go ahead and do a one or two second pause on the chest
and i agree with the guy above who said dont worry about weigh... its really about the triceps bro, not about some number of poundages
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Well in your guys opinion whats the best way to get the triceps to actually become shapely and bigger??
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Well in your guys opinion whats the best way to get the triceps to actually become shapely and bigger??
dips !
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dips !
Dips and close grip presses are the staples of tricep mass exercises. I usually start out with dips and move into close grip presses. I like overhead BB extensions and decline skullcrushers as well.
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check my log bro i always do cg bench and dips ! love em
incline ez crl over head extensions too
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Well as of right now my tri routine goes like this.
Close grip benches,10-8-6
skullkrushers,10-10-8
pressdowns,10-8-8
Let me know what you guys think.
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looks good. you have to play around with the amount of volume on your own. for me i need high volume on arms. other guys rarely ever train armas and thats what wroks best for them. but those core exercises are good choices to build a routine on .
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Well in your guys opinion whats the best way to get the triceps to actually become shapely and bigger??
heavy pressing. pick a variety. my triceps blew up best by just doing heavy benches, close-grips, and shoulder presses, always to lockout.
it doesn't matter for shit if you're isolating them, the point is if you're putting them under maximal loads, they will grow.
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it doesn't matter for shit if you're isolating them, the point is if you're putting them under maximal loads, they will grow.
Isolation OR compound, bottom line is whether it's hitting the muscle effectively + increasing the load over time using moderate reps.
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im a big believer in "time under tesion", btu i also use rest pause sets after i hit failure. so i would say...dont touch your chest for the bulk of your set, but at the end go ahead and do a one or two second pause on the chest
Good approach.
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Isolation OR compound, bottom line is whether it's hitting the muscle effectively + increasing the load over time using moderate reps.
exactly. but i really think ANYTHING isolation for mass is asinine. it's good to assist a bit, to keep joints healthy and the like, but pick a body part and a heavy fucking compound move is what will do it. presses, squats, pulls, rows. that hits every muscle of the body as hard as it can handle.
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exactly. but i really think ANYTHING isolation for mass is asinine. it's good to assist a bit, to keep joints healthy and the like, but pick a body part and a heavy fucking compound move is what will do it. presses, squats, pulls, rows. that hits every muscle of the body as hard as it can handle.
What matters is whether it works, not the type of exercise. Then work on increasing the weight
. Barbell curls aren't compounds and are almost universally considered the best size builder, as just one example, there are many. Pullovers aren't really a compound and are as good as any lat exercise.
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What matters is whether it works, not the type of exercise. Then work on increasing the weight
. Barbell curls aren't compounds and are almost universally considered the best size builder, as just one example, there are many. Pullovers aren't really a compound and are as good as any lat exercise.
i'll agree that curls are good and all, but come on. pullovers as good as weighted chins or heavy rows? come on, that's like saying face pulls are as good for traps as heavy shrugs or hyperextensions are as good for the back as deadlifts.
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a muscle contraction is a muscle contraction. i agree with pumpsetr... the exercise itself doesnt matter, what matters is the muscle stimulattion from the exercise. and i dont think there is any reaSON WHY ONE MOVEMENT wouldnt be as compabible as another to accomplish the same amount of stimulation.
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a muscle contraction is a muscle contraction. i agree with pumpsetr... the exercise itself doesnt matter, what matters is the muscle stimulattion from the exercise. and i dont think there is any reaSON WHY ONE MOVEMENT wouldnt be as compabible as another to accomplish the same amount of stimulation.
there are plenty of reasons. one is hormone release, a squat or a deadlift release a lot more hormones than a leg extension or a back raise.
another is that, thanks to the nature of a compound move versus isolation, you can truly go for maximal effort. try doing heavy triples on pushdowns or DB laterals, then try close-grip bench and military press. see which goes better.
...and so on.
there may not be many reasons why an exercise isn't as "compabible", but don't get tied up in FLEX magazine and internet pseudo-wisdom, people who try and "logic" their way through these things without actually getting out there, doing them, or viewing the results of others' attempts. if i limit myself to weighted chins and you to pullovers, one of us is going to have a much better back.
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weighted chins win
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pullovers as good as weighted chins or heavy rows?
Pullovers are just as good, especially machine pullovers. They should be a basic component of back work.
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there are plenty of reasons. one is hormone release, a squat or a deadlift release a lot more hormones than a leg extension or a back raise.
Please produce studies on:
-Hormone release per exercise.
-How hormone amounts effect muscle development.
-Studies proving that these studies are conclusive.
thanks to the nature of a compound move versus isolation, you can truly go for maximal effort. try doing heavy triples on pushdowns or DB laterals, then try close-grip bench and military press. see which goes better.
Compounds can be more taxing overall, because there are higher demands on oxygen consumption, but that has nothing to do with greater demands on the muscle. Non-compounds are often more effective. Please list the numbers of champion BBs who only did compounds for arm development.
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weighted chins win
One of the best. On the other hand, pulldowns using equivalent heavy resistance & the right form are equally good, similar yet slightly different. Both worth doing.
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Pullovers are just as good, especially machine pullovers. They should be a basic component of back work.
pumpster, i'm sorry, but this is starting to make my head hurt. i do not mean this as a personal flame, but this kind of advice is borderline irresponsible to be giving to newer trainees.
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but if i had to do one it would definetly be chins over puulldowns EVERYTIME
i take pulldowns as what i'd call a bitch movement... i do them on the end of my workout after all the real movements like deads rows.. and chins which i do at the beggining and the end of my workout...
i always consider pulldowns to be for guys who are too lazy to do chins... or cant do them ive seen guys pulling that whole stack down as me what i do for my back develoment i tell them lots of chins.. then wehen we go over to the chin bar they cant even pull off six reps..
chins all the way....for a wide back
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pumpster, i'm sorry, but this is starting to make my head hurt. i do not mean this as a personal flame, but this kind of advice is borderline irresponsible to be giving to newer trainees.
Getting bent out of shape over an opinion's an interesting reaction, especially when you're not offering any firm basis for refuting anything. I'm fine with my advice, based on 35 years of experience, besides which it's only an opinion.
Please take some aspirin, you're over-thinking this. Besides which, yours is not the only way. ;D
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but if i had to do one it would definetly be chins over puulldowns EVERYTIME
i take pulldowns as what i'd call a bitch movement... i do them on the end of my workout after all the real movements like deads rows.. and chins which i do at the beggining and the end of my workout...
i always consider pulldowns to be for guys who are too lazy to do chins... or cant do them ive seen guys pulling that whole stack down as me what i do for my back develoment i tell them lots of chins.. then wehen we go over to the chin bar they cant even pull off six reps..
chins all the way....for a wide back
Both are great, i'll take pulldowns. And the whole thing about pulldowns being for the lazy's just an assumption, depends on who's doing em. Some guys make a joke out of them and other exercises by using horrible form to make it easier to lift weights they shouldn't be. Probably the biggest advantage with chins is that it's harder to cheat, rather than it being a better exercise.
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Getting bent out of shape over an opinion's an interesting reaction, especially when you're not offering any firm basis for refuting anything. I'm fine with my advice, based on 35 years of experience, besides which it's only an opinion.
Please take some aspirin, you're over-thinking this. Besides which, yours is not the only way. ;D
there is a line between "differing opinions" and "wrong", though. i mean, if it's true that your 35 years of experience have yielded such fruits, you must have a world-class physique, yah? the proof is in the pudding, as they say.
now, i try not to get into these arguments, but to say something like "pullovers are as good as anything else" is just, well, crazy.
i do not have time to wade through The Google for the various articles i've found over the past six years, but here's the take home messages combined with what i've personally learned both through my own training and watching others:
1) compound over isolation
2) heavy over "pump"
3) body moving through space over weights moving only (squats over leg press, chins over pulldowns).
3 has exceptions when they violate the other rules. for example, you'd never want to do those goofy "dangling pullup/row" things because doing so heavily would be impossible, same with dips. heavy sets of 3-5 reps on dips is horribly dangerous.
other than that, you're set. but i'll tell you what. i'll eschew ALL isolation tricep, chest, and shoulder exercises for a while, you don't do ANY compound exercises. in six months we'll see who's doing better. sound fair?
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there is a line between "differing opinions" and "wrong", though. i mean, if it's true that your 35 years of experience have yielded such fruits, you must have a world-class physique, yah? the proof is in the pudding, as they say.
now, i try not to get into these arguments, but to say something like "pullovers are as good as anything else" is just, well, crazy.
i do not have time to wade through The Google for the various articles i've found over the past six years, but here's the take home messages combined with what i've personally learned both through my own training and watching others:
1) compound over isolation
2) heavy over "pump"
3) body moving through space over weights moving only (squats over leg press, chins over pulldowns).
3 has exceptions when they violate the other rules. for example, you'd never want to do those goofy "dangling pullup/row" things because doing so heavily would be impossible, same with dips. heavy sets of 3-5 reps on dips is horribly dangerous.
other than that, you're set. but i'll tell you what. i'll eschew ALL isolation tricep, chest, and shoulder exercises for a while, you don't do ANY compound exercises. in six months we'll see who's doing better. sound fair?
I find your reasoning or lackthereof interesting, your conclusions in each case aren't supported by solid facts but hey, keep yer head stuck in the sand if it suits you. The fact that you weren't aware just how good pullovers are really speaks volumes on this. ;D
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I find your reasoning or lackthereof interesting, your conclusions in each case aren't supported by solid facts but hey, keep yer head stuck in the sand if it suits you. The fact that you weren't aware just how good pullovers are really speaks volumes on this. ;D
this reminds me of when people would argue with Chick about training, and it would always be someone with a billion "studies" to reinforce what they're saying but built like a stick, while Chick had zero studies and could just tell you what he knows.
i'm not saying i'm Chick by any means, but i hate the "where are your studies" argument because i think we've established here that anyone can find a study to reinforce anything (i refer you to my battles with Adonis over nutrition).
now i guaran-fucking-tee you i can build a great back on someone without doing any pullovers. would you make that same guarantee about rows and chins? i can build great triceps without doing any pushdowns or extensions. would you say that about presses? the list goes on.
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this reminds me of when people would argue with Chick about training, and it would always be someone with a billion "studies" to reinforce what they're saying but built like a stick, while Chick had zero studies and could just tell you what he knows.
i'm not saying i'm Chick by any means, but i hate the "where are your studies" argument because i think we've established here that anyone can find a study to reinforce anything (i refer you to my battles with Adonis over nutrition).
now i guaran-fucking-tee you i can build a great back on someone without doing any pullovers. would you make that same guarantee about rows and chins? i can build great triceps without doing any pushdowns or extensions. would you say that about presses? the list goes on.
This must be a joke, did you start training yesterday..No one said anything about excluding chins or rows, this is another example of your arbitrary thought process. Some of us have a little more breadth of knowledge and want to know about everything that works, not just some things that work. That way someone can realize most or all of their potential, instead of limiting it as you do. Glad i could help enlighten ya after all these years. ;) Guys like Oliva and Yates with great backs are big believers in pullovers.
I asked about your studes because well, your logic sucks or is complete drivel.
As far as extensions, if Oliva, Coleman and Scott specifically say they're the best bulk builder, i'd say you're talking out of yer ass to leave em out and shortchanging your own potential development lol.
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Actually the Bent Arm pullover, as opposed to the straight arm variety, can be a superior lat builder. The straight arm version is somewhat limited because of the less amount of weight used, as is the case with most extension/leverage movements. I believe the record for bent arm BB pullovers is around 400lb. In any event, using a BB or DB (DB's can be easier on the wrist, elbows and shoulder joints for a lot of folks) can be with-in the class of weighted chins and BB rows for lat/back mass. And I do use both chins & rows at times for heavy lower rep's and partial rack training.
If you want a double bonus than do bent arm pullovers & presses (close grip) as a single compound exercise. Applying this with the GVT(10X10) system (for example,or any way you wish) has produced some very good results for me. Try that with a somewhat moderate pair of 100-120lb DB's and see how the lat's, triceps, pecs and ever abs respond. In a lesser way, DB bent arm pullovers can mock the actions of a good pullover machine
I favor heavy chins (understanding the body through space idea here, as well as it being applied to weighted dips) and other compound movements, over most extension exercise for building the most potential muscle mass. You learn that right away from everyday hands on gym experience. I also find that any version of pullovers can work well with these heavier compound back movements, at times in certain routines, for a complete lat/back workout and development. Good Luck.
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This must be a joke, did you start training yesterday..No one said anything about excluding chins or rows, this is another example of your arbitrary thought process. Some of us have a little more breadth of knowledge and want to know about everything that works, not just some things that work. That way someone can realize most or all of their potential, instead of limiting it as you do. Glad i could help enlighten ya after all these years. ;) Guys like Oliva and Yates with great backs are big believers in pullovers.
I asked about your studes because well, your logic sucks or is complete drivel.
As far as extensions, if Oliva, Coleman and Scott specifically say they're the best bulk builder, i'd say you're talking out of yer ass to leave em out and shortchanging your own potential development lol.
if you want to compare development, i'm MORE than happy to do so. ::)
as for my poor "logic", recall that you said pullovers == chins. thus, you can rely solely on one or the other and the result will be the same, right? that's perfectly logical. let's make it mathematics.
a = b
2a = 2b
a + b = 2a || a + b = 2b
thus, redoubling our efforts in A or B will yield the same effect as doing them together, if they are equal. we can then conclude that concentrating just on pullovers will yield the same effect as concentrating just on pullups or rows and what have you. my logic is rock-solid. don't start changing the debate into "i'm not saying you should exclude anything". you said they were equal. are you backing off on that now?
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if you want to compare development, i'm MORE than happy to do so. ::)
as for my poor "logic", recall that you said pullovers == chins. thus, you can rely solely on one or the other and the result will be the same, right? that's perfectly logical. let's make it mathematics.
a = b
2a = 2b
a + b = 2a || a + b = 2b
thus, redoubling our efforts in A or B will yield the same effect as doing them together, if they are equal. we can then conclude that concentrating just on pullovers will yield the same effect as concentrating just on pullups or rows and what have you. my logic is rock-solid. don't start changing the debate into "i'm not saying you should exclude anything". you said they were equal. are you backing off on that now?
a=b..wtf? This reminds me of a dog chasing it's tail.
if you want to compare development, i'm MORE than happy to do so.
Ahhh yes, another 5-grade level pissing contest. Shall we also meet out on a street corner and "settle this"? lol
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Is that you in that pic pumpster?
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Is that you in that pic pumpster?
Someone named Sergio, you've heard of him? ;D
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pullovers aren't exactly an isolation exercise, i would say very comparable to pullups/rows in terms of stimualting muscle growth.
ps- I've actually liked how pumpster's handled himself here.
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I think you mean sergio olivia right?
THE MYTH
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i think pumpster is right about muscle stimulation, however i think magoo is right about hormonal release from the exercie. he is right that heavy compound movements result in more growth in the non-enhanced athlete. but, when talking purely about stimulating growth at the level of the muscle fiber and satellite cell; then pumpster is correct !
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heavy pressing. pick a variety. my triceps blew up best by just doing heavy benches, close-grips, and shoulder presses, always to lockout.
it doesn't matter for shit if you're isolating them, the point is if you're putting them under maximal loads, they will grow.
i second this comment! My triceps finally blew the hell up when i started doing alot of compound exercises for my benching.. like floor presses, closed grip inclines or bench presses, jm presses, etc.
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i second this comment! My triceps finally blew the hell up when i started doing alot of compound exercises for my benching.. like floor presses, closed grip inclines or bench presses, jm presses, etc.
There are natural presses like you that will react to it more than most and virtually never get injured, get to bigger numbers. There are others who react differently, never get to great numbers and in fact get injured trying to get to big lifts and don't react that well to compounds. Count me in the second group after many years of presses and shoulder probs.
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There are natural presses like you that will react to it more than most and virtually never get injured, get to bigger numbers. There are others who react differently, never get to great numbers and in fact get injured trying to get to big lifts and don't react that well to compounds. Count me in the second group after many years of presses and shoulder probs.
exactly... try one..if it doens't work try the other..
number one killer of great triceps.. OVER TRAINING!
you don't work your back or chest or legs twice a week.. so why would you have a seperate arm day after all your pressing movements!
triceps only need one or two exercises a week with no more than 6-7 total sets like biceps and that's IT!
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you don't work your back or chest or legs twice a week.. so why would you have a seperate arm day after all your pressing movements!
triceps only need one or two exercises a week with no more than 6-7 total sets like biceps and that's IT!
i work everything twice a week.
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exactly... try one..if it doens't work try the other..
number one killer of great triceps.. OVER TRAINING!
you don't work your back or chest or legs twice a week.. so why would you have a seperate arm day after all your pressing movements!
triceps only need one or two exercises a week with no more than 6-7 total sets like biceps and that's IT!
Frequency is like exercise selection, try each for a while then decide. Once a week wouldn't cut if for me-2-3 days for complete recovery's enough, then hit it again. There's no proof that hitting a muscle 2 or 3 times a week with low or moderate sets is overtraining, that's just another theory that accompanies today's trend of less training.Most of the top BBs of the last 4-5 decades hit the muscle twice weekly-Coleman, Oliva, Schwarzenegger, etc. Schwarzenegger thrice weekly precontest.
Just as with exercise selection, you have to try each approach for a while and see the differences.