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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: columbusdude82 on May 12, 2008, 06:57:29 AM
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Two weeks ago, The Observer revealed how 17-year-old student Rand Abdel-Qader was beaten to death by her father after becoming infatuated with a British soldier in Basra. In this remarkable interview, Abdel-Qader Ali explains why he is unrepentant - and how police backed his actions. Afif Sarhan in Basra and Caroline Davies report
* Afif Sarhan in Basra and Caroline Davies
* The Observer,
* Sunday May 11 2008
* Article history
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This article appeared in the Observer on Sunday May 11 2008 on p8 of the News section. It was last updated at 00:03 on May 11 2008.
For Abdel-Qader Ali there is only one regret: that he did not kill his daughter at birth. 'If I had realised then what she would become, I would have killed her the instant her mother delivered her,' he said with no trace of remorse.
Two weeks after The Observer revealed the shocking story of Rand Abdel-Qader, 17, murdered because of her infatuation with a British solider in Basra, southern Iraq, her father is defiant. Sitting in the front garden of his well-kept home in the city's Al-Fursi district, he remains a free man, despite having stamped on, suffocated and then stabbed his student daughter to death.
Abdel-Qader, 46, a government employee, was initially arrested but released after two hours. Astonishingly, he said, police congratulated him on what he had done. 'They are men and know what honour is,' he said.
Rand, who was studying English at Basra University, was deemed to have brought shame on her family after becoming infatuated with a British soldier, 22, known only as Paul.
She died a virgin, according to her closest friend Zeinab. Indeed, her 'relationship' with Paul, which began when she worked as a volunteer helping displaced families and he was distributing water, appears to have consisted of snatched conversations over less than four months. But the young, impressionable Rand fell in love with him, confiding her feelings and daydreams to Zeinab, 19.
It was her first youthful infatuation and it would be her last. She died on 16 March after her father discovered she had been seen in public talking to Paul, considered to be the enemy, the invader and a Christian. Though her horrified mother, Leila Hussein, called Rand's two brothers, Hassan, 23, and Haydar, 21, to restrain Abdel-Qader as he choked her with his foot on her throat, they joined in. Her shrouded corpse was then tossed into a makeshift grave without ceremony as her uncles spat on it in disgust.
'Death was the least she deserved,' said Abdel-Qader. 'I don't regret it. I had the support of all my friends who are fathers, like me, and know what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion,' he said.
Sitting on a chair by his front door and surrounded by the gerberas and white daisies he had planted in the family garden, Abel-Qader attempted to justify his actions.
'I don't have a daughter now, and I prefer to say that I never had one. That girl humiliated me in front of my family and friends. Speaking with a foreign solider, she lost what is the most precious thing for any woman. 'People from western countries might be shocked, but our girls are not like their daughters that can sleep with any man they want and sometimes even get pregnant without marrying. Our girls should respect their religion, their family and their bodies.
'I have only two boys from now on. That girl was a mistake in my life. I know God is blessing me for what I did,' he said, his voice swelling with pride. 'My sons are by my side, and they were men enough to help me finish the life of someone who just brought shame to ours.'
Abdel-Qader, a Shia, says he was released from the police station 'because everyone knows that honour killings sometimes are impossible not to commit'. Chillingly, he said: 'The officers were by my side during all the time I was there, congratulating me on what I had done.' It's a statement that, if true, provides an insight into how vast the gulf remains between cultures in Iraq and between the Basra police the British army that trains them.
Sources have indicated that Abdel-Qader, who works in the health department, has been asked to leave because of the bad publicity, yet he will continue to draw a salary.
And it has been alleged by one senior unnamed official in the Basra governorate that he has received financial support by a local politician to enable him to 'disappear' to Jordan for a few weeks, 'until the story has been forgotten' - the usual practice in the 30-plus cases of 'honour' killings that have been registered since January alone.
Such treatment seems common in Basra, where militias have partial control, especially in the districts on the outskirts where Abdel-Qader lives.
While government security forces and British troops have control over the centre, around the fringes militants can still be seen everywhere on the streets or at the checkpoints they have erected. And they have imposed strict laws of behaviour for all the local people, including what clothing should be worn and what religious practices should be observed. There are reports of men having their hands cut off for looting and women being killed for prostitution.
Homosexuality is punishable by death, a sentence Abdel-Qader approves of with a passion. 'I have alerted my two sons. They will have the same end [as Rand] if they become contaminated with any gay relationship. These crimes deserve death - death in the name of God,' he said.
He said his daughter's 'bad genes were passed on from her mother'. Rand's mother, 41, remains in hiding after divorcing her husband in the immediate aftermath of the killing, living in fear of retribution from his family. She also still bears the scars of the severe beating he inflicted on her, breaking her arm in the process, when she told him she was going. 'They cannot accept me leaving him. When I first left I went to a cousin's home, but every day they were delivering notes to my door saying I was a prostitute and deserved the same death as Rand,' she said.
'She was killed by animals. Every night when go to bed I remember the face of Rand calling for help while her father and brothers ended her life,' she said, tears streaming down her face.
She was nervous, clearly terrified of being found, and her eyes constantly turned towards the window as she spoke. 'Rand told me about the soldier, but she swore it was just a friendship.
'She said she spoke with him because she was the only English speaker. I raised her in a religious manner and she never went out alone until she joined the university and then later when she was doing aid work.
'Even now, I cannot believe my ex-husband was able to kill our daughter. He wasn't a bad person. During our 24 years of marriage, he was never aggressive. But on that day, he was a different person.'
The mother is now trying to raise enough money to escape abroad. 'I miss my two boys,' she said. 'But they have sent a message saying that I am wrong for defending Rand and that I should go back home and live like a blessed Muslim woman,' said Leila, who is now volunteering with a local organisation campaigning for better protection for women in Basra.
One of those running the organisation, who did not want to be identified, said that Rand's case was similar to so many reported in Basra, with the only difference being she was in love with a foreigner, rather than an Iraqi.
'There isn't too much to say. Rand is dead. It is a tragedy and will be a tragedy for many other families in Iraq in the days to come.
'According to information we have been given, some from Rand's colleague, we have doubts that her love was reciprocated. We have the impression that Rand was in love, but the English soldier wasn't. But, for a girl to be paid nice compliments about her beauty and her intelligence, it was enough for her to think she was in love.
'She isn't here any more for her mother to ask any of the questions she would like to. Rand's case had repercussions because she fell in love with a foreigner. But what about the other girls murdered through "honour" killings because they fell in love with some of a different sect, or lost their virginity, or were forced to become prostitutes?'
Rand's mother used to call her 'Rose'. 'That was my nickname for her because when she was born she was so beautiful,' she said.
'Now, my lovely Rose is in her grave. But, God will make her father pay, either in this world ... or in the world after.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights)
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The "Religion of Peace" strikes again!!!
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that is horrible, i think pre-martial sex and homosexuality are wrong, but i dont think that they are punishable by death. All she did was talk to the soldier and they beat her to death
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that is horrible, i think pre-martial sex and homosexuality are wrong, but i dont think that they are punishable by death. All she did was talk to the soldier and they beat her to death
What if someone gets married???? SO, according to you, they should never experience SEX?? That is horrible and SUCH a backwards way of thinking. You taught you this? Your parents?
ANYWAYS, as for the story of that poor little girl. The British soldier should have taken her away from the land of the Barbarians before it was too late for her. They should blow up that entire region (ALL Muslims) and this way they can all be with ALLAH.
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600 years ago, that scenario might have played out in a Christian society as well. In modern times it's barbaric though, and it must be awfully strange to grow up in a household where your own father would slit your throat at the drop of a hat.
Didn't some girl recently get murdered for having an unknown phone number on her cell? Sad!
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600 years ago, that scenario might have played out in a Christian society as well. In modern times it's barbaric though, and it must be awfully strange to grow up in a household where your own father would slit your throat at the drop of a hat.
Didn't some girl recently get murdered for having an unknown phone number on her cell? Sad!
600 years ago, that scenario might have played out in a Christian society as well.
Then I would not call that a Christian society because this goes totally against Christianity.
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Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University states that honor killing is:
A complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society. .. What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honor killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.
Unreal, see this pisses me off!
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What if someone gets married???? SO, according to you, they should never experience SEX?? That is horrible and SUCH a backwards way of thinking. You taught you this? Your parents?
What? I said pre-martial sex, sex before marriage
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Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University states that honor killing is:
A complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society. .. What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honor killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.
Unreal, see this pisses me off!
These people are inferior. As simple as that. Completely inferior.
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There's more sad news to this story. The mother, who left her husband after he killed their daughter, was murdered the day she was planning to flee Iraq and move to Jordan to campaign for women's right. How tragic!
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600 years ago, that scenario might have played out in a Christian society as well. In modern times it's barbaric though, and it must be awfully strange to grow up in a household where your own father would slit your throat at the drop of a hat.
Didn't some girl recently get murdered for having an unknown phone number on her cell? Sad!
Aren't you intelligent enough to discuss this without bringing in another religion?
Why try to reduce the negative impact this story has on islam by bringing up Christianity?
What do you expect us to get from your statement? ??? Please help me understand.
Do you honestly believe Christianity is as bad as islam?
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fucking camels. leave them to their own devices and they'll all kill each other, we don't need to be helping. TURKA TURKA TURKA ALLLLLAH!!!!
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Aren't you intelligent enough to discuss this without bringing in another religion?
Why try to reduce the negative impact this story has on islam by bringing up Christianity?
What do you expect us to get from your statement? ??? Please help me understand.
Do you honestly believe Christianity is as bad as islam?
As far as I'm concerned, this is an example of women being relegated to less than human justice. Today the world is disgusted by Sharia law and all the other barbaric crap Islam foists on us. But take a look at the old testament if you want to find a history of similar treatment of women. Read a book about how women have fared throughout our glorious christian history. Then I suggest you pick up a book about the priest Urbain Grandier to discover all the succulent details of how a heretic like you would have been punished in "our" world. They made it a point to write down every last torment.
You don't have to glorify christianity to make your point about your extremely visceral hatred of muslims. Being a Brit, I can understand your feelings... but really! You always do this, and what does that say about your intelligence? It's ridiculous to think we didn't behave in similar ways 600 hundred years ago. And that was my point. They're living 600 years in the past and no one in the modern Western world really wants to go back there.
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As far as I'm concerned, this is an example of women being relegated to less than human justice. Today the world is disgusted by Sharia law and all the other barbaric crap Islam foists on us. But take a look at the old testament if you want to find a history of similar treatment of women. Read a book about how women have fared throughout our glorious christian history. Then I suggest you pick up a book about the priest Urbain Grandier to discover all the succulent details of how a heretic like you would have been punished in "our" world. They made it a point to write down every last torment.
You don't have to glorify christianity to make your point about your extremely visceral hatred of muslims. Being a Brit, I can understand your feelings... but really! You always do this, and what does that say about your intelligence? It's ridiculous to think we didn't behave in similar ways 600 hundred years ago. And that was my point. They're living 600 years in the past and no one in the modern Western world really wants to go back there.
I have always said it: the middle east is a portal to the 14th century in many ways.
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These people are inferior. As simple as that. Completely inferior.
Yes
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As far as I'm concerned, this is an example of women being relegated to less than human justice. Today the world is disgusted by Sharia law and all the other barbaric crap Islam foists on us. But take a look at the old testament if you want to find a history of similar treatment of women. Read a book about how women have fared throughout our glorious christian history. Then I suggest you pick up a book about the priest Urbain Grandier to discover all the succulent details of how a heretic like you would have been punished in "our" world. They made it a point to write down every last torment.
You don't have to glorify christianity to make your point about your extremely visceral hatred of muslims. Being a Brit, I can understand your feelings... but really! You always do this, and what does that say about your intelligence? It's ridiculous to think we didn't behave in similar ways 600 hundred years ago. And that was my point. They're living 600 years in the past and no one in the modern Western world really wants to go back there.
Christianity is bollocks, but I must admit without its centralizing influence in Europe, the developed world would be far behind where it is today.
The bible and sharia law are wholly different subjects and cannot possibly be compared as simply as you put it, and quite clealry displays a lack of understanding from you.
Read up on the koran, its infallibility, and the laws subscribed by "god". Then you will understand the fallacy in your comparison and also why islam, quite frankly, in my opinion is a dangerous ideology designed for control over primitive tribal cultures.
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Christianity is bollocks, but I must admit without its centralizing influence in Europe, the developed world would be far behind where it is today.
The bible and sharia law are wholly different subjects and cannot possibly be compared as simply as you put it, and quite clealry displays a lack of understanding from you.
Read up on the koran, its infallibility, and the laws subscribed by "god". Then you will understand the fallacy in your comparison and also why islam, quite frankly, in my opinion is a dangerous ideology designed for control over primitive tribal cultures.
How can the same not be said of the bible, ...and the organized religion(s) it has spawned?
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Simply the concept is not the same.
For a muslim, the koran is the infallible word of god, a perfect copy of the mother of all books which rests at god side since eternity, it transcends time. Ergo, it's laws transcend time. Laws in muhammad's time ARE APPLICABLE now. That means among other things, leaving islam is punishable by death, muslim women cannot marry outside of islam whilst men can (expansion via demographics), women's voice in a sharia court requires more evidence than that of a man.
The koran lays out laws, ways of life for the WHOLE system, your life, morals and that of the government.
Now tell me how that can be directly compared to the ambiguous text of the Christian bible?
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Christianity is bollocks, but I must admit without its centralizing influence in Europe, the developed world would be far behind where it is today.
The bible and sharia law are wholly different subjects and cannot possibly be compared as simply as you put it, and quite clealry displays a lack of understanding from you.
Read up on the koran, its infallibility, and the laws subscribed by "god". Then you will understand the fallacy in your comparison and also why islam, quite frankly, in my opinion is a dangerous ideology designed for control over primitive tribal cultures.
I didn't explain myself well. I realize there are differences between the two, but since this is a thread about women, I'll just go there and the differences are virtually transparent.
The mistake you're making (in my mind) is focusing on RELIGION versus the BEHAVIOR. It doesn't matter if Islam is a dangerous ideology. As soon as "my religion is better than yours" enters the equation so do questions of the freedom to practice religion in a democratic society. That in turn makes room for appeasements of all kinds, which is what extremists count on. It hasn't worked anywhere there is mass immigration.
The argument falls short anyway because Islam = horrible, doesn't automatically mean Everything Judeo-Christian = fantastische.
Don't you think we've come very far in 6-900 years. We used to stick pins into peoples' eyes to divine if they were witches. Any woman in the 14th century was the possession of her father and brothers and if she didn't do what they said, she got the shit beat out of her, or was thrown into the oubliette. If we look at our past we can see how far we've come and how much we have to lose.
THAT makes it much easier to tell women who can't roll up their sleeves to be sterile... fine don't be a nurse. Go work in an ice cream factory. Want to be a cypher with a schmata on your head? Fine, don't be a school teacher and stay out of government buildings. Go home and cook. Want to kill your daughter... here's a prison cell. End of story.
Btw the Netherlands has started to take that very practical and effective approach. So has Australia.
The West has fought for our hard-won freedoms and civility, and guess that's why I keep comparing our past to their present.
Actually, if all women would throw off their burkas, the whole concept of fundamentalist Islam would totally fall apart, since their domination is central to the tribal culture, like Hustle Man said. As for the girl and her mother... oh well, it's their country, and that's how it's done. Besides, it always takes a few martyrs to start a revolution.
This Paul must be a hottie. :D
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It doesn't matter if Islam is a dangerous ideology.
That is just horseshit. If the dogma itself is more clear on the dominate the woman/expand Islam through violence shit, it will become much more difficult to have behavior that deviates from the scripture than it the "dominate the women/kill the infidel" shit was less clearly written.
Nordic Superman: HAve you found any expert on Islam that can flat out refute the points you made in your last post by using evidence from the Islamic dogma?
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Actually, if all women would throw off their burkas, the whole concept of fundamentalist Islam would totally fall apart, since their domination is central to the tribal culture, like Hustle Man said. As for the girl and her mother... oh well, it's their country, and that's how it's done. Besides, it always takes a few martyrs to start a revolution.
This Paul must be a hottie. :D
Frivolous issues aside, can you explain to me the difference between your politically correct perverse concept of "islam", and how it is different to "fundamentalist islam".
Most of your post is frivolous because you clearly missing on some of the key points of islam.
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That is just horseshit. If the dogma itself is more clear on the dominate the woman/expand Islam through violence shit, it will become much more difficult to have behavior that deviates from the scripture than it the "dominate the women/kill the infidel" shit was less clearly written.
Nordic Superman: HAve you found any expert on Islam that can flat out refute the points you made in your last post by using evidence from the Islamic dogma?
I'm speaking only with regards to women's issues. What I was trying to tell NS is we should forget religion altogether, take it out of the equation, and judge actions based on our secular Western sensibilities, laws and fundamental freedoms. As soon as we do that, the justification for all those religious appeasements that are so nauseating fly out the window.
I don't want to see women in burkas all over the streets. The significance of them is offensive to all Western women who have fought for their freedoms. NS thinks I'm politically correct. It's the opposite. The Netherlands has banned them from public areas. Good.
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I'm speaking only with regards to women's issues. What I was trying to tell NS is we should forget religion altogether, take it out of the equation, and judge actions based on our secular Western sensibilities, laws and fundamental freedoms. As soon as we do that, the justification for all those religious appeasements that are so nauseating fly out the window.
I don't want to see women in burkas all over the streets. The significance of them is offensive to all Western women who have fought for their freedoms. NS thinks I'm politically correct. It's the opposite. The Netherlands has banned them from public areas. Good.
Hopefully, Gert Wilders will come to ultimate power in the Netherlands. >:(
And why the fuck are you Brits still threating these inferior idiots with silk hands? Where the fuck did your ginger cock and balls attitude from WW2 go? >:(
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Frivolous issues aside, can you explain to me the difference between your politically correct perverse concept of "islam", and how it is different to "fundamentalist islam".
Most of your post is frivolous because you clearly missing on some of the key points of islam.
As you wish. I do know this. Your country, and France as well, has appeased a barbaric culture and you do this within the context of christian values. Take religion out of the picture, make no room for it, look at the issues in a more historical and secular context, i.e. that was us then, not now, and we want no part of it, and the problem goes away. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's how I look at it.
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Hopefully, Gert Wilders will come to ultimate power in the Netherlands. >:(
And why the fuck are you Brits still threating these inferior idiots with silk hands? Where the fuck did your ginger cock and balls attitude from WW2 go? >:(
Are you talking to NS cause I'm not a Brit and have no ginger cock and balls attitude. ;D
I'm Germanish, Canadianish.
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I'm Germanish, Canadianish.
Ops.
Are Muslims a big problem in Canada too?
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Ops.
Are Muslims a big problem in Canada too?
There has been immigration to Quebec as many Arabs speak French and it's been estimated that Arabic would surpass French at some point as most widely spoken language. There was some rumbling to institute Sharia law in Toronto a while back but that got squashed.
But Canada is huge, the people who come here do seem to be more educated. I was shocked though, the last time I was on a trip to France at the amount of full on schmata wear (which is what I call it ;D) I saw. I think European countries tend to get more village educated people than we do. I couldn't stand it if we became like Europe.
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There was some rumbling to institute Sharia law in Toronto a while back but that got squashed.
WTF, that this was even a question is so fucked up that it is sickening.
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WTF, that this was even a question is so fucked up that it is sickening.
Well yes!!! It was, and there were mass protests, even in Europa. But this is my argument with NS. The reason the door was open to it, is because there were already tribunal systems for orthodox Jews and Catholics I think. Give it to one and you have to give it to another. That's why everyone should be beholden to the same secular laws only, across the board.
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Well yes!!! It was, and there were mass protests, even in Europa. But this is my argument with NS. The reason the door was open to it, is because there were already tribunal systems for orthodox Jews and Catholics I think. Give it to one and you have to give it to another. That's why everyone should be beholden to the same secular laws only, across the board.
Was it just some muslim creeps wanting the Sharia law and speaking loud about it, or was the process of getting it instated actually on its way?
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Well yes!!! It was, and there were mass protests, even in Europa. But this is my argument with NS. The reason the door was open to it, is because there were already tribunal systems for orthodox Jews and Catholics I think. Give it to one and you have to give it to another. That's why everyone should be beholden to the same secular laws only, across the board.
Yup....
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Was it just some muslim creeps wanting the Sharia law and speaking loud about it, or was the process of getting it instated actually on its way?
I'm not sure as I wasn't around then, but must have been more than just a blip cause there were protests in France and Deutschland over it. I do remember it was a middle-eastern women who led the fight against it, and if I'm not mistaken, the Jewish/Catholic tribunal thing was renounced as a result.
Yup....
Yup. :)
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Why hasn't jaguarenterprises the lying coward responding to my question? ??? ::) :-*
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Why hasn't jaguarenterprises the lying coward responding to my question? ??? ::) :-*
NS the old testament isn't particularly ambiguous regarding the way punishments should be meted out. We already went through this in the IS GOD CRUEL? thread.
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NS the old testament isn't particularly ambiguous regarding the way punishments should be meted out. We already went through this in the IS GOD CRUEL? thread.
It is open to more interpretation than the koran, simply for the koran is sold as "the perfect infallible word of god".
The bible doesn't do this other than the 10 commandments.
Of course even you didn't refute this when I pressed you for response earlier in this thread.
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It is open to more interpretation than the koran, simply for the koran is sold as "the perfect infallible word of god".
The bible doesn't do this other than the 10 commandments.
Of course even you didn't refute this when I pressed you for response earlier in this thread.
Both the bible and the koran are pieces of silly, old trash; they have equal standing in my eyes, equally useless and equally dangerous...
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Both the bible and the koran are pieces of silly, old trash; they have equal standing in my eyes, equally useless and equally dangerous...
The difference lies in followers. Muslims tend to be a lot less educated on average when compared to christians.
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The difference lies in followers. Muslims tend to be a lot less educated on average when compared to christians.
Central and South America are filled with poor, uneducated Christians, but they don't go around killing their daughters and blowing themselves up to kill innocent people.
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NS the old testament isn't particularly ambiguous regarding the way punishments should be meted out. We already went through this in the IS GOD CRUEL? thread.
Deedee, if you are trashing Christianity, why do you keep bringing up the Old Testament? That's Judaisms holy text too, and I don't see you trashing the Jews too. What about the Gospels and Jesus' words. Don't they have anything good to say? Are you comparing the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace, to teachings of Mohammad, "The Prophet of the Sword"? ::)
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Deedee, if you are trashing Christianity, why do you keep bringing up the Old Testament? That's Judaisms holy text too, and I don't see you trashing the Jews too. What about the Gospels and Jesus' words. Don't they have anything good to say? Are you comparing the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace, to teachings of Mohammad, "The Prophet of the Sword"? ::)
All three monotheisms are a bane upon this world; just think how much further we would be without them...sad really.
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It is open to more interpretation than the koran, simply for the koran is sold as "the perfect infallible word of god".
The bible doesn't do this other than the 10 commandments.
Of course even you didn't refute this when I pressed you for response earlier in this thread.
I didn't see it at first NS... I was focusing on your other post.
Actually we know how it was interpreted, since we only have to look at our past. There weren't many toothless villagers intellectualizing over a glass of merlot, and the days of yore goatherds loved a good disemboweling and/or burning at the stake.
I'm curious. You spend a lot of time comparing religions, and always speak up when there's a chance to dissect the koran and its evils, but what use is it? Your country is losing its culture, you appease age-old goatherd religious customs, there are fatwas on your artists... and didn't that archbishop whoever recently say that Sharia law was inevitable and might be a good thing? It seems all that bitter intellectualizing is just an exercise in impotence.
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We can't judge them by our values.
Things wouldn't be much different if fundamentalist whack jobs had total power in the US as they take the bible to be very literal.
It is cute how we're so morally superior to them, LOL!
Thousands of Iraqi people die and that doesn't mean much. One girl dies and everyone's writing articles about the abuse of women, how the war will stop stuff like this from happening, how brutal Islam is, etc....
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Deedee, if you are trashing Christianity, why do you keep bringing up the Old Testament? That's Judaisms holy text too, and I don't see you trashing the Jews too. What about the Gospels and Jesus' words. Don't they have anything good to say? Are you comparing the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace, to teachings of Mohammad, "The Prophet of the Sword"? ::)
Says the resident latin hothead. ::) Instead of flying off the emotional handle, maybe you should read the thread instead to find out what it's all about.
And hate to burst your bubble, but honor and revenge killings happen everywhere, including Latin countries. Did you not see the Sopranos episode where Vito gets wacked for being a finnochio? It's all about reputation and security and def has not been relegated to islamic countries exclusively.
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We can't judge them by our values.
Things wouldn't be much different if fundamentalist whack jobs had total power in the US as they take the bible to be very literal.
It is cute how we're so morally superior to them, LOL!
Thousands of Iraqi people die and that doesn't mean much. One girl dies and everyone's writing articles about the abuse of women, how the war will stop stuff like this from happening, how brutal Islam is, etc....
No we can't judge them by our values, which is a little bit what I've been saying. We can however, not tolerate ancient barbaric customs in our modern day Western world. I can't imagine who would say that the war will stop anything. The US put the taliban into power the first place... which sent women's rights, such as they were, right into the toilet. Meh.
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I'm curious. You spend a lot of time comparing religions, and always speak up when there's a chance to dissect the koran and its evils, but what use is it? Your country is losing its culture, you appease age-old goatherd religious customs, there are fatwas on your artists... and didn't that archbishop whoever recently say that Sharia law was inevitable and might be a good thing? It seems all that bitter intellectualizing is just an exercise in impotence.
Don't count the British gingers out yet. When the mussies has pissed them off enough, it will be game over. Brits might be tolerant, but just like Israel, don't piss them off too far ;D
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No we can't judge them by our values, which is a little bit what I've been saying. We can however, not tolerate ancient barbaric customs in our modern day Western world. I can't imagine who would say that the war will stop anything. The US put the taliban into power the first place... which sent women's rights, such as they were, right into the toilet. Meh.
Why many americans think all Europeans = spineless fuckers? And why do many Americans think that Europe = already taken by immigrant scum? News: It ain't and it wont.
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Don't count the British gingers out yet. When the mussies has pissed them off enough, it will be game over. Brits might be tolerant, but just like Israel, don't piss them off too far ;D
;D
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Says the resident latin hothead. ::) Instead of flying off the emotional handle, maybe you should read the thread instead to find out what it's all about.
And hate to burst your bubble, but honor and revenge killings happen everywhere, including Latin countries. Did you not see the Sopranos episode where Vito gets wacked for being a finnochio? It's all about reputation and security and def has not been relegated to islamic countries exclusively.
Way to avoid my questions. How about answering my questions, Deedee?
How about you show us proof that Latin American fathers kill their daughters and that it is inspired by Christianity? Go ahead.
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All three monotheisms are a bane upon this world; just think how much further we would be without them...sad really.
Yeah, right. We would be so much further because secular leaders and secular ideals have done so much better in modern times. ::)
WWI(1914 - 1918): 19,772,701
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties#References
WWII(1930s – 1945): 62,000,000
- World War II: Combatants and Casualties (1937 — 1945). Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- World War II Fatalities. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
Great Leap Forward(1958 - 1960): 43,000,000
- Peng Xizhe (彭希哲), "Demographic Consequences of the Great Leap Forward in China's Provinces," Population and Development Review 13, no. 4 (1987), 639-70.
Great Purge(1937 -1938): 1,200,000
- Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments by Historian Michael Ellman, 2002
Pol Pot's agrarian collectivization (1975 -1979): 1,700,000
- Sophal Ear (May 1995). The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.In Chapter 1: Introduction
- The Cambodian Genocide Program. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.
That's what? 127,672,701 casualties for just these few, that's not counting the emotional, cultural, economic trauma, etc. Keep in mind that the above did not happen in ancient times. It was done by "modern civilized people", moved by secular ideologies.
Deedee,
You are missing the point for me bringing this up. OzmO pointed out that there is harm in believing that the OT is the word of God because that makes us "more" vulnerable to manipulations from politicians. He said that there is "more potential" for believers in the OT to be manipulated into killing.
But as you can see, anybody whether secular or religious has as much potential to be manipulated or is just as vulnerable to be manipulated into killing. People can be manipulated by ideals, whether they believe in the OT or not, whether those ideals are secular or religious. To say that if nobody today believed in the OT is going to make people less vulnerable to such manipulations is naive.
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Way to avoid my questions. How about answering my questions, Deedee?
How about you show us proof that Latin American fathers kill their daughters and that it is inspired by Christianity? Go ahead.
PWNED
Deedee, I honestly believe you have little knowledge on islam or christianity to make the comparisons you've made in this thread.
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PWNED
Deedee, I honestly believe you have little knowledge on islam or christianity to make the comparisons you've made in this thread.
Who has been pwned? If you think it was I, then how so?
You seem to be very proud of your knowledge of islam, and no, I am not overly familiar with the texts. As far as christianity goes, more. I don't really enjoy quoting scripture back and forth, it frankly bores me, and loco has already sucked me into a few of these time-wasters. I made a comment that 600 years ago our societies behaved in ways similar to theirs today. I've given you some choice examples of old world punishments, but there are dozens. Marriages were arranged, children were hung for stealing bread, etc. If you don't see those similarities, well then I suppose you don't.
You only picked up on my comment because your visceral hatred of Islam is so intense that you can't stomach even the slightest potentially critical comment regarding Judaism or Christianity, no matter how innocuous it is. You did the same in calling me an apologist simply because I said a person of Jewish faith shouldn't have been dovening on a plane when told to sit. It was simply a statement with no emotion or loyalties behind it at all. But that was your interpretation, based on your own emotions.
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Who has been pwned? If you think it was I, then how so?
You seem to be very proud of your knowledge of islam, and no, I am not overly familiar with the texts. As far as christianity goes, more. I don't really enjoy quoting scripture back and forth, it frankly bores me, and loco has already sucked me into a few of these time-wasters. I made a comment that 600 years ago our societies behaved in ways similar to theirs today. I've given you some choice examples of old world punishments, but there are dozens. Marriages were arranged, children were hung for stealing bread, etc. If you don't see those similarities, well then I suppose you don't.
You only picked up on my comment because your visceral hatred of Islam is so intense that you can't stomach even the slightest potentially critical comment regarding Judaism or Christianity, no matter how innocuous it is. You did the same in calling me an apologist simply because I said a person of Jewish faith shouldn't have been dovening on a plane when told to sit. It was simply a statement with no emotion or loyalties behind it at all. But that was your interpretation, based on your own emotions.
Nordic's problem is that he does not approach Islam from a secular perspective and ignores the silliness, absurdity and former brutality of the other invented monotheisms.
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Who has been pwned? If you think it was I, then how so?
You seem to be very proud of your knowledge of islam, and no, I am not overly familiar with the texts. As far as christianity goes, more. I don't really enjoy quoting scripture back and forth, it frankly bores me, and loco has already sucked me into a few of these time-wasters. I made a comment that 600 years ago our societies behaved in ways similar to theirs today. I've given you some choice examples of old world punishments, but there are dozens. Marriages were arranged, children were hung for stealing bread, etc. If you don't see those similarities, well then I suppose you don't.
You only picked up on my comment because your visceral hatred of Islam is so intense that you can't stomach even the slightest potentially critical comment regarding Judaism or Christianity, no matter how innocuous it is. You did the same in calling me an apologist simply because I said a person of Jewish faith shouldn't have been dovening on a plane when told to sit. It was simply a statement with no emotion or loyalties behind it at all. But that was your interpretation, based on your own emotions.
You believe comparing islam with Christianity is a fair comparison?
Of course I see the similarities of cultural comparisons. Christianity doesn't as far as I am aware prescribe death to children that steal, the koran however does:
"the thief male, and female: cut off the hand of both, as a recompense of what they have earned, and a punishment exemplary from God; God is All-mighty All-wise."
Remember, the koran is supposed to be rectified as the source of all laws under islam. VERY different to Christianity.
Where's this quote about the Jew? If a jew started praying on a plane I was on I would almost be as pissed as it being a muslim.
Nordic's problem is that he does not approach Islam from a secular perspective and ignores the silliness, absurdity and former brutality of the other invented monotheisms.
I can discuss the absurdity of the beliefs of any religion, especially those with belief in an impossibility (a all-knowing, all-controlling "God").
It just appears that this thread is on the topic of possible influence from the ideology of islam, and can be discussed exclusive of that of Christianity.
The really boring thing about all this is the continual inclusion and comparison to Christianity 500 years ago.
A simply see islamic ideology as the current threat so that is why it receives most of my critical responce.
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I could not read past the stomping and suffocating his daughter.
Insert <Why Muslims should leave America thread>
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I could not read past the stomping and suffocating his daughter.
Insert <Why Muslims should leave America thread>
It is against islamic law for a muslim women to have relations with a non-muslim.
His actions were prescribed by the ideology he subscribes to.
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The culture of the people is why these heinous acts occur. The religion becomes the word to hide behind and offers it acceptance. The only way it will go away is if the customs change. These people have isolated and cut themselves off from the Western world, so the odds of that occurring are slim to none. The war hasn't and won't change anything.
The Western world changed dramatically since the days of the Inquisitors roaming around judging and torturing women with a copy of the Malleus Maleficarum as their morally righteous and religiously accepted guideline. Christian society's interpret the bible much differently today, as was pointed out, than they did 600 years ago. Our culture changed, became more civilized, less barbaric, though if it could be gotten away with legally I'd hate to see how far some of these religious zealots today would go.
There are always those that want out of a culture and will get away. I have a neighbor who's one. Perhaps the military presence has given the strength to some of those that otherwise wouldn't have left, to leave, good for them. I'm sure however that most women of Islam are very happy and content. It's a part of them, their custom, their culture. They live by the guidelines of the Koran as Christian women do the commandments of the Bible. They live in their happy corner of the world and what happens in it is their business. If you don't want to see the instances of barbarism don't look.
Their culture has existed throughout the centuries without any need for the good judgement of the Western world and they certainly aren't asking for it now. It's not too dissimilar from the Amish, only they get a no-strings attached opportunity to walk away. Oddly enough almost all of them go back, yet none of the people who read this board would consider that lifestyle for a millisecond. It doesn't make any sense in our world and we wouldn't want any part of it. We would question these people endlessly about why, yet they're very content, perhaps more so than us educated, civilized folk.
It's an unfortunate, isolated incident and if she looked anything like my neighbor, Paul should've just taken himself a little Muslim chicka back to the Island :)
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The Western world changed dramatically since the days of the Inquisitors roaming around judging and torturing women with a copy of the Malleus Maleficarum as their morally righteous and religiously accepted guideline. Christian society's interpret the bible much differently today, as was pointed out, than they did 600 years ago.
Whoever pointed that out is wrong. Christian societies did not interpret the bible much differently 600 years ago because they did not interpret the Bible at all. It was forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church for anyone who wasn't a Church leader to own a Bible, it was forbidden for the people to read the Bible on their own, the Bible was read to the people in Latin only by Church leaders and it was forbidden to translate it. The Inquisitions, Crusades, judging and torturing women was justified, not using the Bible, but using Roman Catholic Church dogma and traditions, which contradict the Bible.
I'm sure however that most women of Islam are very happy and content. It's a part of them, their custom, their culture. They live by the guidelines of the Koran as Christian women do the commandments of the Bible. They live in their happy corner of the world and what happens in it is their business. If you don't want to see the instances of barbarism don't look.
Their culture has existed throughout the centuries without any need for the good judgement of the Western world and they certainly aren't asking for it now. It's not too dissimilar from the Amish, only they get a no-strings attached opportunity to walk away. Oddly enough almost all of them go back, yet none of the people who read this board would consider that lifestyle for a millisecond. It doesn't make any sense in our world and we wouldn't want any part of it. We would question these people endlessly about why, yet they're very content, perhaps more so than us educated, civilized folk.
Good points.
The Amish people still live in the past today, and they believe in the Bible laterally, but they don't go around killing their daughters in the name of the Gospel.
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Whoever pointed that out is wrong. Christian societies did not interpret the bible much differently 600 years ago because they did not interpret the Bible at all. It was forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church for anyone who wasn't a Church leader to own a Bible, it was forbidden for the people to read the Bible on their own, the Bible was read to the people in Latin only by Church leaders and it was forbidden to translate it. The Inquisitions, Crusades, judging and torturing women was justified, not using the Bible, but using Roman Catholic Church dogma and traditions, which contradict the Bible.
The Proverbs are loaded with with proper ways and suggestions to torture and/or keep people in line with violence. If you want it to read otherwise, it had better be open to plenty of interpretation. You're drawing a very fine line between the Inquisitors, Crusaders etc., having the blessing and protection of the church and saying that the written word was interpreted with evil intent and the masses fed misinformation by the Church leaders of the time. Where does one end and the other begin?
Are the masses being fed misinformation, misled by the religious leaders of today? Is it possible?
The Amish people still live in the past today, and they believe in the Bible laterally, but they don't go around killing their daughters in the name of the Gospel.
I don't think this creature over in Iraq killed his daughter because of the Koran loco. It's a part of their custom and culture. He and others can hide behind the blessing of the Koran, the acceptance from their peers and the protection from criminal prosecution in their country to treat women and family members in this barbaric fashion. Fairly similar m/o as the Inquisitors for the most part, only I have a feeling the Friars family members were safe, but god forbid you lived in the next town and were an attractive young woman.
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Whoever pointed that out is wrong. Christian societies did not interpret the bible much differently 600 years ago because they did not interpret the Bible at all. It was forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church for anyone who wasn't a Church leader to own a Bible, it was forbidden for the people to read the Bible on their own, the Bible was read to the people in Latin only by Church leaders and it was forbidden to translate it. The Inquisitions, Crusades, judging and torturing women was justified, not using the Bible, but using Roman Catholic Church dogma and traditions, which contradict the Bible.
Hence, you have the reason for the Reformation. People (when they read Scripture for themselves) found huge discrepancies, between what the Bible actually said and what the RCC claimed it said. When Gutenberg came up with his version of the printing press, he was able to "mass-produce" the Bible in the plain language of the people.
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Islam the religion of peace! ::)
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You believe comparing islam with Christianity is a fair comparison?
Of course I see the similarities of cultural comparisons. Christianity doesn't as far as I am aware prescribe death to children that steal, the koran however does:
"the thief male, and female: cut off the hand of both, as a recompense of what they have earned, and a punishment exemplary from God; God is All-mighty All-wise."
Remember, the koran is supposed to be rectified as the source of all laws under islam. VERY different to Christianity.
If you look at the Levitical/Deuteronomical laws regarding theft (from the Bible), most of them emphasize giving restitution to the victim of theft (i.e. giving the victim two sheep for stealing one sheep; or being in servitude to the wronged party to pay off debt).
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It is against islamic law for a muslim women to have relations with a non-muslim.
His actions were prescribed by the ideology he subscribes to.
Yeah I know. Same goes for men also I think.
At the office, a mulim friend who is young fell in love with an American girl from Alabama (haha) and proposed to her, but he had to talk it over with his whole family and they did not approve and the guy was getting tormented by it, finally they relented he was cut from the family fortune or something and he married her.
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Yeah I know. Same goes for men also I think.
At the office, a mulim friend who is young fell in love with an American girl from Alabama (haha) and proposed to her, but he had to talk it over with his whole family and they did not approve and the guy was getting tormented by it, finally they relented he was cut from the family fortune or something and he married her.
No, a muslim women CANNOT marry a non-muslim man.
A muslim man IS allowed to marry a non-muslim women.
This is simply expansion by demographics. As per the koran.
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The culture of the people is why these heinous acts occur. The religion becomes the word to hide behind and offers it acceptance. The only way it will go away is if the customs change. These people have isolated and cut themselves off from the Western world, so the odds of that occurring are slim to none. The war hasn't and won't change anything.
The Western world changed dramatically since the days of the Inquisitors roaming around judging and torturing women with a copy of the Malleus Maleficarum as their morally righteous and religiously accepted guideline. Christian society's interpret the bible much differently today, as was pointed out, than they did 600 years ago. Our culture changed, became more civilized, less barbaric, though if it could be gotten away with legally I'd hate to see how far some of these religious zealots today would go.
There are always those that want out of a culture and will get away. I have a neighbor who's one. Perhaps the military presence has given the strength to some of those that otherwise wouldn't have left, to leave, good for them. I'm sure however that most women of Islam are very happy and content. It's a part of them, their custom, their culture. They live by the guidelines of the Koran as Christian women do the commandments of the Bible. They live in their happy corner of the world and what happens in it is their business. If you don't want to see the instances of barbarism don't look.
Their culture has existed throughout the centuries without any need for the good judgement of the Western world and they certainly aren't asking for it now. It's not too dissimilar from the Amish, only they get a no-strings attached opportunity to walk away. Oddly enough almost all of them go back, yet none of the people who read this board would consider that lifestyle for a millisecond. It doesn't make any sense in our world and we wouldn't want any part of it. We would question these people endlessly about why, yet they're very content, perhaps more so than us educated, civilized folk.
It's an unfortunate, isolated incident and if she looked anything like my neighbor, Paul should've just taken himself a little Muslim chicka back to the Island :)
Good post Count G. :)
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You believe comparing islam with Christianity is a fair comparison?
Of course I see the similarities of cultural comparisons. Christianity doesn't as far as I am aware prescribe death to children that steal, the koran however does:
"the thief male, and female: cut off the hand of both, as a recompense of what they have earned, and a punishment exemplary from God; God is All-mighty All-wise."
Remember, the koran is supposed to be rectified as the source of all laws under islam. VERY different to Christianity.
Where's this quote about the Jew? If a jew started praying on a plane I was on I would almost be as pissed as it being a muslim.
I suppose my views on cultural influences were already answered by Deicide and Count G. so don't need to go there.
I think the basic difference between christianity and islam is the latter's fatalistic approach which translates into... the more deaths the merrier. Is that fair?
There are admonishments in the OT to put degenerate children to death, stone women who don't scream out when they're being raped, etc... as someone said, there are plenty of examples to be found.
The dovening jew comment was made on the Political board.
If you found my comment boring, and preferred this to be a thread with 100 comments on "islam sucks" why didn't you just say so instead of questioning my intelligence?
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I never said the Bible didn't say that, you're still not getting the POINT.
The POINT being the concept of the koran in comparison to that of the Bible.
The Bible doesn't assert itself in the same manner the koran does.
This is my point.
Can anyone disprove this fact? ???