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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: IrishMuscle84 on May 21, 2008, 12:05:15 PM
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I just did my first shot of Test(Cyp) 5 min ago. How long can i expect the TEST to start working?
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keep on shooting for about 4 weeks and then come back and tell us what is happening. long ester gear takes a little longer to kick in, but you will feel it.
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All steroids start working immediately. Now how long til you can really measure the progress... that's a different question.
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I just did my first shot of Test(Cyp) 5 min ago. How long can i expect the TEST to start working?
If it's human grade you'll feel it a lot faster then most UG test...at least that's how it is these days since most UG gear is shit.
If you're a first time user, it may be a good 4wks before you notice anything, but if you're someone who's used a handfull of times, you'll notice the effects a lot faster...give it time.
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Pretty much what AJ said. I can feel HG test working the day I inject it. Now, that doesn't equat to massive gains and huge increase in lifts in the gym the first day. But I can definitely feel it, usually vivid dreams and libido increase follow shortly after a week or so.
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Pretty much what AJ said. I can feel HG test working the day I inject it. Now, that doesn't equat to massive gains and huge increase in lifts in the gym the first day. But I can definitely feel it, usually vivid dreams and libido increase follow shortly after a week or so.
vivid dreams are a result of aas?
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If you guys are feeling test cyp in the first few days then its simply a placebo effect. Things do not change that fast in the body. Your muscles grew bigger and stronger in a few days on a tiny dose that would be available up to that point? kinda like Incredable Hulk muscles i guess :-\
I agree with what Vet has been saying about placebo being very strong indeed.
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No one said anything about muscle changes at all, i said in fact that does not occur. But I can feel the hormones in my system the first couple of days, easy. I was pretty clear that my strength and body comp did not change obviously.
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the day after i did my first shto i swear i felt more self confident and just had a much better over all sense of well being.
and i am not one for the placebo effect. i always wait and see what th effects of a drug are one me.
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the day after i did my first shto i swear i felt more self confident and just had a much better over all sense of well being.
and i am not one for the placebo effect. i always wait and see what th effects of a drug are one me.
Of course, because you knew you are now "on cycle". There is power in just knowing what powerful hormones you are embarking on, so therefore you felt like it was working already. That is a true definition of placebo effect.
I remember when I first had to go on HRT. I got my tube of cream, applied on my forearms in the parking lot, went to the gym to train back and was lifting way more than I was the week prior. All placebo....but I swore it was because I just applied the test an hour ago! LOL!!
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no dude i dont allow these placebo effects to occur. :)
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Placebo is the strongest drug known to mankind. ;)
I will say, when I started HRT, I felt a difference within about 3-4 days. Now, at that time I had very, very low testosteron levels, so I wasn't going to supraphysiological levels, but rather just returning to normal. I'll also admit I was scared shitless of the whole HRT idea becuase as far as I'm concerned in my mind I'm no longer "drug free" in terms of powerlifting. I didn't want the drugs to work fast, I was strong already and there was a stupid little voice in the back of my mind telling me I was cheating.
The first effects were really psychological (and I really think this is what people are feeling when they are "kicking in" with supraphysiological doses of hormones)---it wasn't that I was physically stronger, but I mentally could focus. That translated into differences in the gym. This change in psyche also could be a source of percieved differences in appearance. Think about the ugly chick who thinks she's beautiful. Its a similar phenomena. You think you are seeing/feeling/having a difference and as a result you are and you will.
Its going to take days to weeks for you to see real changes (this includes fluid retention). Even with drugs, the body needs time to build new muscle tissue. It can't happen overnight.
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no dude i dont allow these placebo effects to occur. :)
Lmao.
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Placebo is the strongest drug known to mankind. ;)
I will say, when I started HRT, I felt a difference within about 3-4 days. Now, at that time I had very, very low testosteron levels, so I wasn't going to supraphysiological levels, but rather just returning to normal. I'll also admit I was scared shitless of the whole HRT idea becuase as far as I'm concerned in my mind I'm no longer "drug free" in terms of powerlifting. I didn't want the drugs to work fast, I was strong already and there was a stupid little voice in the back of my mind telling me I was cheating.
The first effects were really psychological (and I really think this is what people are feeling when they are "kicking in" with supraphysiological doses of hormones)---it wasn't that I was physically stronger, but I mentally could focus. That translated into differences in the gym. This change in psyche also could be a source of percieved differences in appearance. Think about the ugly chick who thinks she's beautiful. Its a similar phenomena. You think you are seeing/feeling/having a difference and as a result you are and you will.
Its going to take days to weeks for you to see real changes (this includes fluid retention). Even with drugs, the body needs time to build new muscle tissue. It can't happen overnight.
Whoa...this is way too weird, you and I had near idendictal situations and thoughts on the matter.
My test was at 100 when I first started HRT and I competed naturally in BB for years. When I first started that cream, I was almost ashamed. But besides what was going to happen physically, I too started to feel much better mentallhy right away. No more "brain fog", lathargy, etc...
With all that said, I am a true believer in placebo effect. 8)
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okay. sure. i agree. it takes time fror physical changes to manifest. bot psychological ones..? inject some heroin and tell me how long it takes you to feel that difference. :D
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Whoa...this is way too weird, you and I had near idendictal situations and thoughts on the matter.
My test was at 100 when I first started HRT and I competed naturally in BB for years. When I first started that cream, I was almost ashamed. But besides what was going to happen physically, I too started to feel much better mentallhy right away. No more "brain fog", lathargy, etc...
With all that said, I am a true believer in placebo effect. 8)
Yeah, it was mental first, then it became physical. I had been drug free (other than OTC stuff---which I think is a whole other topic and thread and the dangers of some of that shit and its effects on the HPT axis) except for insulin, which I have to take because of my diabetes and albuterol I took for asthasma when I was younger. After about 6 weeks I noticed I could feel the muscles working again. It was weird. I'd trained heavy as a powerlifter for years and I wasn't feeling things the way I am now. I just kept pushing the weights. I've been on HRT for almost 8 weeks now (test levels were still low last blood work two weeks ago), so the doses are going up again.
All that said, again, I've tried to objectively measure what I'm doing in the gym. On an absolute max weight, I'm not significantly stronger, I'm setting PR's at about the same pace as I was before.
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okay. sure. i agree. it takes time fror physical changes to manifest. bot psychological ones..? inject some heroin and tell me how long it takes you to feel that difference. :D
Different drug, different receptors. its not a good comparison in my mind. The closest thing I can come up with is how long does it take your girlfriend to become a psycho bitch after getting a depoprovera injection, and even thats a bit of a stretch. Unfortunately thats the only realistic exmaple I can think of off the top of my head right now
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yeah your right bad comparison but psycho actives work once they reach the brain... so i think that once youve got some extra test floating in your blood at that moment, no later, youll start to get the feel good effects of it
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If you guys are feeling test cyp in the first few days then its simply a placebo effect. Things do not change that fast in the body. Your muscles grew bigger and stronger in a few days on a tiny dose that would be available up to that point? kinda like Incredable Hulk muscles i guess :-\
I agree with what Vet has been saying about placebo being very strong indeed.
I agree with what Emmortal is saying...this is the same kind of thing I meant...especailly the part in red:
No one said anything about muscle changes at all, i said in fact that does not occur. But I can feel the hormones in my system the first couple of days, easy. I was pretty clear that my strength and body comp did not change obviously.
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My delt is fuckin sore as shit....
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My delt is fuckin sore as shit....
Welcome. ;)
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yeah your right bad comparison but psycho actives work once they reach the brain... so i think that once youve got some extra test floating in your blood at that moment, no later, youll start to get the feel good effects of it
To a degree, the thing is there are different types of opoid receptors located primarily within the nervous tissue where they have a virtually immediate effect, while there is essentially one type of testosterone receptor in multiple tissues in the body where that hormone doesn't directly have an effect but stimulates other effects. Thats why there is a delayed response with testosterone effects. Not only that but you aren't taking test IV, you are injecting it IM, so there will be a difference in absorption rates.
Anyway, its more or less a bunch of academic bullshit and really doesn't matter that much as far as the general topics of this board go and I'm probably splitting hairs over it anyway.
Sorry.
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To a degree, the thing is there are different types of opoid receptors located primarily within the nervous tissue where they have a virtually immediate effect, while there is essentially one type of testosterone receptor in multiple tissues in the body where that hormone doesn't directly have an effect but stimulates other effects. Thats why there is a delayed response with testosterone effects. Not only that but you aren't taking test IV, you are injecting it IM, so there will be a difference in absorption rates.
Anyway, its more or less a bunch of academic bullshit and really doesn't matter that much as far as the general topics of this board go and I'm probably splitting hairs over it anyway.
Sorry.
No Vet what the board needs more of is academic stuff. More facts less speculation.
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To a degree, the thing is there are different types of opoid receptors located primarily within the nervous tissue where they have a virtually immediate effect, while there is essentially one type of testosterone receptor in multiple tissues in the body where that hormone doesn't directly have an effect but stimulates other effects. Thats why there is a delayed response with testosterone effects. Not only that but you aren't taking test IV, you are injecting it IM, so there will be a difference in absorption rates.
Anyway, its more or less a bunch of academic bullshit and really doesn't matter that much as far as the general topics of this board go and I'm probably splitting hairs over it anyway.
Sorry.
so what your saying is testosterone itself doesn have any psycho active properties...but it does set off a sort of chain reaction that causes the psych change ?
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To a degree, the thing is there are different types of opoid receptors located primarily within the nervous tissue where they have a virtually immediate effect, while there is essentially one type of testosterone receptor in multiple tissues in the body where that hormone doesn't directly have an effect but stimulates other effects. Thats why there is a delayed response with testosterone effects. Not only that but you aren't taking test IV, you are injecting it IM, so there will be a difference in absorption rates.
Anyway, its more or less a bunch of academic bullshit and really doesn't matter that much as far as the general topics of this board go and I'm probably splitting hairs over it anyway.
Sorry.
We're all here to share our knowledge and to learn from one another, so don't ever be sorry for sharing what you know. I'm like a sponge and love learning new shit every day. Keep it up!
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so what your saying is testosterone itself doesn have any psycho active properties...but it does set off a sort of chain reaction that causes the psych change ?
No, what I'm saying is that the body has multiple opoid receptors: mu, kappa, delta as an example, and there are subtypes of each of these receptors These receptors are located directly on the nerves which are affected, so the drugs effects are direct without the insitution of any additional mechanisms.
Where as testosterone is essentially taken up by a single recptor type-- Free T is transported into the cytoplasm of a cell, where its taken up by the Androgen receptor or its converted to DHT, which binds to the androgen receptor. This single androgen receptor is really what causes the effects you see from Testosterone. Once that receptor is activated, it sets off a cascade of events that leads to the effects that are seen--for example increasing DNA transcription, leading to mRNA synthesis leading to ribosomal synthesis of cellular proteins leading to increased muscular cell size. There are steps in the pathway, its not "direct".
As far as psychological effects of testosterone, NO, I am NOT saying that Test has no psychological effects. The thing is the effects of test come from activation of other mechanisms. I am not aware of there being direct androgen receptors on nerve cells like there are opoid receptors on nerve cells, however, there is differences in the size of the male and female brain that are associated with androgen administration (neutered male dogs will have a proportionally smaller brain than intact male dogs of the same age, breed, and physical size). That makes me think there has to be a direct effect on nervous tissue in some way.
I know from my own experience, I have seen a definite difference in moods since starting HRT. I can focus again and think directly at what is going on. I have always been a posterchild for ADD, but now thoughts aren't bouncing all over the place without direction and I don't have the same mental fog I did 2 months ago. Now, that said, i'm still not at a normal Test level with HRT. I don't know how things will be once I get back to "normal".
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i bet youll be horny! LOL ;D
hey vet... do you know what causes the fat loss effects of testosterone? AND, could you explain how testosterone works to save and build muscle while losing body fat andin caloric defecit but positive nitorgen balance
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No, what I'm saying is that the body has multiple opoid receptors: mu, kappa, delta as an example, and there are subtypes of each of these receptors These receptors are located directly on the nerves which are affected, so the drugs effects are direct without the insitution of any additional mechanisms.
Where as testosterone is essentially taken up by a single recptor type-- Free T is transported into the cytoplasm of a cell, where its taken up by the Androgen receptor or its converted to DHT, which binds to the androgen receptor. This single androgen receptor is really what causes the effects you see from Testosterone. Once that receptor is activated, it sets off a cascade of events that leads to the effects that are seen--for example increasing DNA transcription, leading to mRNA synthesis leading to ribosomal synthesis of cellular proteins leading to increased muscular cell size. There are steps in the pathway, its not "direct".
As far as psychological effects of testosterone, NO, I am NOT saying that Test has no psychological effects. The thing is the effects of test come from activation of other mechanisms. I am not aware of there being direct androgen receptors on nerve cells like there are opoid receptors on nerve cells, however, there is differences in the size of the male and female brain that are associated with androgen administration (neutered male dogs will have a proportionally smaller brain than intact male dogs of the same age, breed, and physical size). That makes me think there has to be a direct effect on nervous tissue in some way.
I know from my own experience, I have seen a definite difference in moods since starting HRT. I can focus again and think directly at what is going on. I have always been a posterchild for ADD, but now thoughts aren't bouncing all over the place without direction and I don't have the same mental fog I did 2 months ago. Now, that said, i'm still not at a normal Test level with HRT. I don't know how things will be once I get back to "normal".
:) Thats a great post vet! reminiscent of Marble's posts, (he was legend here at one time) What is exceptional about your information is it is all very scientific but you have it written in a way it is easy for the layman to understand. Its not just some 2 page scientific journal that has been copied and pasted which are so hard for anyone to read. This reading is more interesting and accurate.
Marble had a huge thread on the effects of testosterone on the neurotransmitters, I looked but could not find it, its a few years old. One thing I remember from the thread was marble said that test may heighten the effect of other drugs you are taking. I was noticing at the time cause I was smoking some weed then, that in the am when i got high and had some caffeine, from coffee i was like on cloud 9. I mean I have smoked tons of weed over the years but never had this strong feeling of wellbeing from it, I have to say it was the best I have ever felt, high-straight-whatever, it was much more than just the pot.
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:) Thats a great post vet! reminiscent of Marble's posts, (he was legend here at one time) What is exceptional about your information is it is all very scientific but you have it written in a way it is easy for the layman to understand. Its not just some 2 page scientific journal that has been copied and pasted which are so hard for anyone to read. This reading is more interesting and accurate.
Marble had a huge thread on the effects of testosterone on the neurotransmitters, I looked but could not find it, its a few years old. One thing I remember from the thread was marble said that test may heighten the effect of other drugs you are taking. I was noticing at the time cause I was smoking some weed then, that in the am when i got high and had some caffeine, from coffee i was like on cloud 9. I mean I have smoked tons of weed over the years but never had this strong feeling of wellbeing from it, I have to say it was the best I have ever felt, high-straight-whatever, it was much more than just the pot.
Was it haze??? If so that would explain it. Not purple haze bought the brown haze that kinda tastes like a musty basement smells ;Its the best!
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Here ya go candid this may help answer your question:
ncrease in Bone Density and Lean Body Mass during
Testosterone Administration in Men with Acquired
Hypogonadism
Our results show that gonadal steroids have a significant
impact on fat distribution. In normal men, serum testosterone
levels correlate negatively with fat deposition (4). Because
androgen receptors are present on adipose cells, and
testosterone enhances lipolysis (25, 26), testosterone may
affect adipose metabolism directly. In addition, testosterone
therapy preferentially enhances triglyceride turnover in abdominal
compared to femoral adipose tissue in men with
abdominal obesity and relatively low serum testosterone
levels (27). This finding suggests that androgen therapy can
regulate lipolysis in a site-specific manner. Using QCT, a
sensitive technique for assessing site-specific fat deposition,
we have shown that testosterone replacement therapy results
in a substantial reduction in SC fat that is associated with a
marked decrease in the percentage of body fat. There was a
trend toward a decrease in visceral fat, and it is possible that
inclusion of more subjects may have increased the power of
the analysis and resulted in statistical significance. Our data
show that testosterone replacement therapy increases lean
muscle mass in adult hypogonadal men. The changes in lean
muscle mass reflect both an increase in skeletal muscle mass
and a reduction in muscle fat content. Androgens increase
protein synthesis in skeletal muscle, which may lead to an
increase in muscle mass (28). These data show a beneficial
effect of testosterone treatment on body composition in adult
men with acquired hypogonadism. Additional studies are
necessary to determine whether the increase in lean muscle
mass is associated with functional improvements, such as
increased strength.
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damnit ! i need to start asking more questions LOL..
dude knowledge thank you that is awesome info. androgen receptors on the adipose cell? holy fuck thats awesome !
okay guys... i want everybody to tell me everything they know hahahaha
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Was it haze??? If so that would explain it. Not purple haze bought the brown haze that kinda tastes like a musty basement smells ;Its the best!
LOL I think it was northen lights. Better stop this talk of the herb its been about a year since i smoked any and wanna keep it that way, lol
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LOL I think it was northen lights. Better stop this talk of the herb its been about a year since i smoked any and wanna keep it that way, lol
Mmm Northern Lights...gets my mouth watering.
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damnit ! i need to start asking more questions LOL..
dude knowledge thank you that is awesome info. androgen receptors on the adipose cell? holy fuck thats awesome !
okay guys... i want everybody to tell me everything they know hahahaha
I bet you didn't know that estrogen is lipolytic too :D
ESTROGENIC FAT
By Karl Hoffman
Estrogen makes a person fat, doesn’t it? Well, women do have a higher body fat content in general than do men, especially in the gluteofemoral (hips and buttocks) region. Is estrogen really the cause of this gender dimorphism in adiposity? Probably not. In fact, there are a wealth of data that implicate estrogen as both an anorectic and antiadipogenic hormone. It is much more likely that progesterone is the culprit in supporting higher levels of gluteofemoral fat in women (1). The model described in (1) has progesterone as the lipogenic hormone. Before menopause, both estrodiol and progesterone are secreted by the ovaries. After menopause, estrone becomes the primary circulating estrogen produced from aromatization of adrenal androgens (primarily the aromatization of androstenedione to estrone by adipose tissue), while progesterone levels drop dramatically since adrenal production of progesterone is minimal.
In premenopausal women, progesterone increases lipoprotein lipase activity, which is greater in the gluteofemoral region, while estrogen suppresses it. Lipoprotein lipase is the body’s primary fat storage enzyme; it is responsible for allowing fats to leave the circulation and enter adipocytes. The progesterone wins out however and before menopause, women tend to have more gluteofemoral fat and less abdominal fat.
Why do women have more gluteofemoral fat while men have more central (abdominal) fat? One popular theory is that women hold fat in the gluteofemoral region where it is far removed from the liver and has fewer fat mobilizing enzymes/more fat retaining enzymes than in men. Men hold fat in the visceral and abdominal subcutaneous region where it is closer to the liver and richer in fat mobilizing enzymes. Proximity to the liver is a factor because the portal circulation connects abdominal fat deposits directly to the liver. Free fatty acids released from abdominal deposits can act directly on the liver to promote gluconeogenesis, providing the body with a ready supply of glucose for “fight or flight” situations.
From an adaptational viewpoint, women's fat is designed to be stored until needed for lactation and child rearing. Men's fat on the other hand is designed to be readily mobilized for fight or flight situations during defense and hunting. This theory may be a bit simplistic as well as sexist; but it does make sense to some degree.
Most likely the notion of estrogenic fat originated from the belief that estrogen upregulates alpha 2 receptors in fat cells, retarding lipolysis. This may be just one facet of estrogen’s actions. If one looks at the net result of estrogen’s effects, to quote a leading expert in the field
“Testosterone and GH inhibit LPL and stimulate lipolysis markedly. Oestrogens seem to exert net effects similar to those of testosterone.” (2)
For example, animal studies have shown that testosterone promotes alpha 2 adrenoreceptor mediated antilipolytic activity, just as it promotes beta adrenoreceptor mediated lipolysis.
Interestingly, recent research has even attributed at least part of testosterone's fat burning properties to its local aromatization to estradiol (3). For instance when testosterone is administered along with an aromatase inhibitor, LPL activity increases, showing that the testosterone itself is devoid of any ability to lower LPL. (4)
There are a number of animal studies where estradiol administration led to significant weight and fat loss. Citing just one, for example:
"The administration of 17 beta-estradiol (500 micrograms/kg, 2 or 4 weeks) to male rats significantly reduced the body weight...Basal lipolysis and adrenaline-induced lipolysis [due to increase in HSL action] were also significantly enhanced in the epididymal adipose tissue from the male rat treated either with 7 mg/kg estradiol 12 h ahead or with 500 micrograms/kg estradiol for 2 weeks. These results indicate that estradiol exerts strong effects on metabolism of the adipose and these effects seems to be mediated through cyclic-AMP." (5)
This research indicates that in addition to the abovementioned inhibition of LPL, estrogen also stimulates the lipolytic enzyme hormone sensitive lipase.
Some of the most compelling evidence for the antiadipogenic effect of estrogen in both males and females comes from studies of estrogen receptor knockout mice and humans with aromatase deficiency. Both the afflicted humans and the knockout mice exhibit obesity. A detailed look at this topic can be found here:
I also mentioned that estrogen is a potent hunger-suppressing hormone. Research is a bit sketchier here, but the effect is thought to be due to an estrogen-induced inhibition in melanin-concentrating hormone (MCH) signaling (6). MCH is a neuropeptide found in the hypothalamus that is also thought to be involved in leptin’s regulation of appetite. Leptin, an anorectic hormone secreted from the adipose tissue, acts on the specific receptor present on its target neurons in the brain, and suppresses the expression of both MCH and its receptor. So we see that the actions of both estrogen and leptin are at least partly mediated through interactions with MCH.
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I bet you didn't know that estrogen is lipolytic too :D
whhhaaaattttttttt
so its both lipogenic and lipolytic????
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Was it haze??? If so that would explain it. Not purple haze bought the brown haze that kinda tastes like a musty basement smells ;Its the best!
Uh...dude that "musty basement smell" is mold on your weed..you don't wanna be smoking that.
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Im on my second week of doing my first cycle. I did my second shot a few hrs ago. Now, when i Aspirate, does it matter how far i pull it back?? I dont sound confusing, and hope someone understands what im saying but when i aspirate, its hard for me to pull it back soo i start getting nervous and impatient so i dont if i Aspirate correctly. I just want my injections to go nice and smooth, and dont wanna fuck them up and get an infection or some shit. One more thing, i doubt its from the Test Cyp But does Test make you sweat alot??
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You just need to pull back enough so that you feel resistance. The point is to know you aren't hitting a vein. If you hit a vein you'll get no resistance and blood will enter the syringe.
Could be the test, some people get the sweats on test alone. It's not really anything to worry about.
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yes, test can make you sweat!
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Sometimes the plunger can be sticky, so I know what you mean. As you pull you'll notice a small amount of air or tiny bubbles but no blood. Once you see that, you know the plunger has moved and would have drawn blood if you were in a vein, so you're good to inject.
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Ya, i actually do notice some air bubbles when i aspirate. Well, where i live it was hot and muggy all afternoon soo it could have been from both the weather and the Test. Aight cool guys, thnx. 8) 8)
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Since im doing delt injections, should alternate delts every week? meaning this week, do my injections in my left delt then next week right delt, so on and so forth....or it doesnt really matter? cuz ive noticed that since ive been doing my injections in my left delt, its gotten a little bigger than my right delt, i know its a little swollen and its a little red right around the injection site. Tomorrow I was gonna start injecting in my right delt and ive been trying to find the same spot on my right delt that ive been injecting into my left delt but its hard cuz my right delt doesnt look the same as my left.
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Since im doing delt injections, should alternate delts every week? meaning this week, do my injections in my left delt then next week right delt, so on and so forth....or it doesnt really matter? cuz ive noticed that since ive been doing my injections in my left delt, its gotten a little bigger than my right delt, i know its a little swollen and its a little red right around the injection site. Tomorrow I was gonna start injecting in my right delt and ive been trying to find the same spot on my right delt that ive been injecting into my left delt but its hard cuz my right delt doesnt look the same as my left.
Always rotate sites as much as possible.
It shouldn't be red around the injection site.
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I know from my own experience, I have seen a definite difference in moods since starting HRT. I can focus again and think directly at what is going on. I have always been a posterchild for ADD, but now thoughts aren't bouncing all over the place without direction and I don't have the same mental fog I did 2 months ago. Now, that said, i'm still not at a normal Test level with HRT. I don't know how things will be once I get back to "normal".
I agree man just finishing finals week, best focus I have ever had. Placebo? who knows but if I can get more hg test I certainly will... Its for the grades only I swear