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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Deicide on June 06, 2008, 05:13:52 AM
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Everyone is different, but what is your take?
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I don't see why not. Theres a lot of people out there who swear by programs such as 5x5.
As you said though, everyone is different. It may work for some, whilst for others, they may be better suited to more "traditional" hypertrophy style training.
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I suppose it depends on how your muscle fibres are genetically predisposed to that type of training - more white/fast twitch muscle fibres and you will probably be able to get away with using the 5 x 5 training routine and get good results. Guys with a more even proportion of white/red muscle fibres would have to train with higher reps to get results.
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For a lot of people that's too low for optimal development. Lower reps are better suited for strength training plus you have to factor in the heightened risk of injury; alot will find it too harsh on the joints and ligaments then you have some who never get injured on any scheme in which case this is more viable as an alternative tho i don't think it's the best one for development.
5x5 works better IMO if you use a GVT approach with rests shortened to a minute or less, which will further emphasize the pump/keep the area warm in the face of higher lbs./stress and increase the intensity.
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5x5 would work better IMO if the rests are shortened to under a minute, that will further emphasize the pump/keep the area warm in the face of higher lbs./stress and increase the intensity.
my answer in a nutshell. you can definitely grow on a low rep scheme (i know i have), but if everything's that low and paired with long rest periods, i can't see it working too well for hypertrophy.
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my answer in a nutshell. you can definitely grow on a low rep scheme (i know i have), but if everything's that low and paired with long rest periods, i can't see it working too well for hypertrophy.
Exactly my point about shorter rests helping to counter the extra stress of higher weights.
Also, ask yourself whether 5 reps works as well as reps somewhere in the 6-12 range, stricly in terms of development. It's hard to know after the fact but it's likely the same development or more would happen with moderate reps, without the added joint/ligament stress. As long as the weights are increased over time the development will be at least the same or more with moderate reps, IMO. Lower reps create development but the skew is towards strength over development.
Some just prefer a certain lower or higher rep range, so do what works but keep in mind the heightened risk of injury with lower reps and the increased potential for development in the 6-12 range.
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By and large, I've usually stuck with lower rep schemes (5-6 reps per set) for the compound movements, though on squats I have gone and still do go as high as 10 reps. When I've done direct arm "isolation" movements, I've tended to go to 12 reps. If you opt for lower (i.e., no less than 5) rep schemes, I think the key is to go all-out on each set, and as heavy as possible. This has worked well for me. BUT, that being said, not everybody gets the same benefits from the same training protocols. It's best, I think, to experiment with different protocols, keeping in mind that you need to stick with a given protocol for a decent amount of time to see the optimal gains you'd get from it. This takes time and patience, but it's worth it.
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yes, but your compromising maximum hypertrophy for more strength ..
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Exactly my point about shorter rests helping to counter the extra stress of higher weights.
Also, ask yourself whether 5 reps works as well as reps somewhere in the 6-12 range, stricly in terms of development. It's hard to know after the fact but it's likely the same development or more would happen with moderate reps, without the added joint/ligament stress. As long as the weights are increased over time the development will be at least the same or more with moderate reps, IMO. Lower reps create development but the skew is towards strength over development.
Some just prefer a certain lower or higher rep range, so do what works but keep in mind the heightened risk of injury with lower reps and the increased potential for development in the 6-12 range.
i want to say that i read somewhere that a combination works best. to the tune of doing a heavy 4-6 rep set and then following up with a 20 rep set.
whether going for strength or hypertrophy, limiting your rep range to one end of the spectrum is a bad idea.
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i want to say that i read somewhere that a combination works best. to the tune of doing a heavy 4-6 rep set and then following up with a 20 rep set.
whether going for strength or hypertrophy, limiting your rep range to one end of the spectrum is a bad idea.
thats how phil heath trained off season this past year and thats what his trainer contributes his huge gain in size too.
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thats how phil heath trained off season this past year and thats what his trainer contributes his huge gain in size too.
funny thing is, i swear the 225 rep-out training has made a heck of a difference in my appearance. not sure how well my strength did, but i know my chest is at its best! :D
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low reps is fine for hypertrophy as long as you up the no of sets. more volume is needed which means more sets! 5x10 rather than 5x5!
rest 60-90 seconds between sets.
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funny thing is, i swear the 225 rep-out training has made a heck of a difference in my appearance. not sure how well my strength did, but i know my chest is at its best! :D
yeah i try variations and high volume seems to work well as long as you also have high intensity/heavy weight in there as well
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funny thing is, i swear the 225 rep-out training has made a heck of a difference in my appearance. not sure how well my strength did, but i know my chest is at its best! :D
That's what I always do with squats. I usually do a 5x5 scheme with them, unload some weight and rep out 20 reps to finish. Has worked really well for me personally.
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You most certainly can. Don't do 5x5 forever but I have been using 8-4 reps in my training as of late (with intermittent breaks of higher reps) and my muscles are def denser. Let us know what results you get in 2-3 months. If you start to feel achy then throw in a week at higher reps 10-15.
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I suppose it depends on how your muscle fibres are genetically predisposed to that type of training - more white/fast twitch muscle fibres and you will probably be able to get away with using the 5 x 5 training routine and get good results. Guys with a more even proportion of white/red muscle fibres would have to train with higher reps to get results.
he hit it.. big j is right on the money. Depends on what your dominate muscle fiber makeup is in that area.
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thats not the way ive learned it... all muscle fibers are pretty much the same... less weight=less muscle fiber recruitment.. more weight=more muscle fiber recruitment.. not two different sets of muscle fibers altogether... although i could be wrong...
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thats not the way ive learned it... all muscle fibers are pretty much the same... less weight=less muscle fiber recruitment.. more weight=more muscle fiber recruitment.. not two different sets of muscle fibers altogether... although i could be wrong...
are you sure you've been reading poliquin's writings? ;D
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are you sure you've been reading poliquin's writings? ;D
that wasnt poliquin that was some soviet dude from the 40's..
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You most certainly can. Don't do 5x5 forever but I have been using 8-4 reps in my training as of late (with intermittent breaks of higher reps) and my muscles are def denser. Let us know what results you get in 2-3 months. If you start to feel achy then throw in a week at higher reps 10-15.
Whole reason I asked was because of a shoulder injury I got on a low rep scheme (5)...
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With out a doubt 5X5's have put slabs of muscle on many men throughout the years (just caught an article at T-nation.com about it being used by Reg Park and other BB'ers back in the very old day's). Some trainee's have used set's of 2's & 3's on lifting program. PL'ers and Olympic lifters come to mind. Very thick muscled men. Though at times they have used slightly higher reps on assistance exercises, but low, heavy reps are their main protocol. Of course we must remember that low reps do not always mean handling super heavy weight.
You will find that lower reps can actually build up the strength of the joints/ligaments when approached with a logical understanding of working out. Another reason why so many heavy lifters apply a form of periodization when planning out a long range training scheme. 6-8 weeks of heavy 6-8 weeks of light & 6-8 weeks of moderate. Of course this is just a general loose outline, many versions of periodization. Or similar styles of yearly training. And than again, a few lifter ignore it all together. Each one of us has to pick are own poison
It would come down to the amount of rep's done, and rest between, in a total specific workout. With 5X5's there is a total of 25 reps with a rest range of 120 to 180 seconds seconds, nothing more. Compound exercise (usually 3 at the most each workout) are, and should be, the only exercises feature in a course like this. To the extreme, doing GVT (during lighter phrase) will involve 100 reps with a rest period of 90 to 120 seconds. In each case you want to set a good pace for any workout protocol. good Luck.
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I have grown off sets of 5, though as you say, it's dependent on the person and a few other things
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you know the problem here is the assumption that it's the ONLY rep scheme you do. as though you'd be doing 5x5 on everything from squats to shrugs to calf raises.
low reps are good, high reps are good. mix 'em all up.
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The assumption is correct if 5X5's are the only protocol, when including Squats, DL's, BP, curls and even ab and calf raises. That's 5 reps of 5 sets on every exercise( you want 25 reps the full workout). If the assumption is being that anyone mixes up the rep scheme, with higher reps, on different exercises, on a basic 5X5 protocol, than they are totally wrong. That would be tweaking a very sound and proven workout principle.
Trouble being that too many excellent programs are rearranged to suit those who use them. Misguided Tweaking again. 8X8's and 10X10's given as a good example. And it may be surprising that few people really know how to put into practice a simple SS, Tri set or pre-exhaust BB'ing workout plan. Not really taking full advantage of what they can offer in way of muscle size. Any system, including 5X5's are meant to be used for a shorter period of 6 to 8 weeks (12 at the very most for some people with special requirements) and than change to something else. Good Luck.
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Everyone is different, but what is your take?
everyone is more alike than different.
and yes hypertrophy can be achieved using 5s. why do you even need to ask?
5s will give you the best of two worlds. heavy tension and lots of metabolic work. if i could only do one number of repetitions it would be 5s.
another aspect is motor unit recruitment which reaches its maximum at 80-85% of 1RM which is about 5-8 reps. so if you use heavier loads than 85% it wont increase motor unit recruitment instead you will train neural processes.
= a repetition range of 5-8 is magic for a bodybuilder. combined with some higher (8-12+) rep work and occasionally some lower rep work (1-4reps)
and finally, there is no need to limit yourself to one repetition range. a bodybuilder should do most work in the 5-8 rep range tho. (can you grow using 3s?..for sure..but you need to increase sets to some extent if you choose to do that. and i wouldnt recommend doing 3s on isolation exercises. and even tho 3s can increase muscle size, i dont see it as 'optimal' for a bodybuilder).
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5-8 is the best compromise between size and strength gains. 8-12 is the best for overall size. 1-4 is the best for strength.
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5-8 is the best compromise between size and strength gains. 8-12 is the best for overall size. 1-4 is the best for strength.
life is full of compromises. 5-8 is what you should do most of the time. add a couple of sets of 8-12 (-15 for legs) and your good to go. then do a couple of periods of lower rep training (for example 3s) per year...(3-4 weeks at a time), to increase strength further. which lets you use heavier weights when you go back to the somewhat higher reps.
in other words:
if your a powerlifter get strong in the 1-5 rep range. (lower the reps the closer to competition you get)
if your a bodybuilder get strong in the 5-8(12) rep range.
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ill personally never go into the 1-4 rep range... thats not me and not how i train and not why i train..... and getting too strong just makes lifting a pain in the ass;;; i already have to do so much loading and unloading of plates that shit gets annoying
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I would only use the 5 x 5 approach on the big major power moves and include some isolation exercises with higher reps (6-12).
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5-8 is the best compromise between size and strength gains. 8-12 is the best for overall size. 1-4 is the best for strength.
Lower reps with heavy weight = power.
Diet regardless of rep scheme = size.
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Lower reps with heavy weight = power.
Diet regardless of rep scheme = size.
do you mean to say rep range has no effect on hypertrophy only diet does ?
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It all depends on a persons genetics.
Heavier weight will build a thicker denser looking muscle but calories,calorie expenditure,and maco amounts give you size as long as muscle tissue is broken down with decent weight...............8-12 reps,with a spot-on diet and you will gain size.
You don`t necessarily have to do 1-6 reps for mass.
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calories,calorie expenditure,and maco amounts give you size as long as muscle tissue is broken down with decent weight
why would i want to break down muscle tissue ?
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So it can repair and grow.
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i don think i want to break my muscles down
id prefer to keep them intact and full and just activate growth through reaching failure and switching on the satellite cells..
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All you intellectuals suck. Debussey don't understand anything of what you = writing. What is a satelite cell?
Shut up and lift.
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Whole reason I asked was because of a shoulder injury I got on a low rep scheme (5)...
Then be careful with it but I have one too and generally a weak shoulder is also a sign of muscular imbalances.
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I`ve used the 5 reps to great effect. In fact 3-5 reps is almost all I ever use.
I only change the number of sets & rest periods between them to differentiate a mass program from a power program from a strength program.
But you`re saying:
Whole reason I asked was because of a shoulder injury I got on a low rep scheme (5)...
How could that be due to anything other than poor form or
muscular imbalances.
?
Are you getting any external rotation exercises in with your shoulder program? What kind of programs have you been on for the last 12 months?
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The injury suffered by this thread's author's a perfect example of the heightened injury potential actually, regardless of whether some here like low reps and haven't suffered the same thing. Not to say it will happen to everyone, but the probability for injury goes up with higher weights and lower reps, it's pretty much common sense. That's why top BBs don't go with low reps in general using very heavy weight, they know better than to let ego get in the way. They go with fairly heavy weight relative to their strength in the 6-12 range for the most part with some changeups once in a while for contrast.
On a cost-benefit basis it's debatable whether lower reps will make any significant difference in terms of development. Those espousing low reps might've made the same or better gains on other programs. On the other hand the cost in terms of increased risk of injury is beyond debate.
Poor form is only possibly cause of injury. Even with perfect form the potential for injury's always higher with heavy weights for most people, period. The connective tissues and joints are overloaded with resistance they're not totally in control of when the reps are low. There's also precious little mind-muscle connection with very heavy weight.
Shoulder imbalances are only one cause of injury, there are plenty of people who are candidates for injury including Bob Chick who had no imbalance at all. Many just don't have the physique to handle low reps and very heavy poundages. It's pretty much common sense that huge poundages put tremendous strain on the joints and connective tissues.
I really believe that some here like the low reps due to ego. That's great for powerlifting, but notice that most of the strong BBs don't go with low reps on a regular basis for the reasons i've outlined both heightened risk of injury and also the fact that it's not as good in general for development. And once they're injured the don't have to be told twice on avoiding low reps. ;)
Varying the reps for shock value's cute but isn't essential either, both because there are many ways to add shock value outside of doing this, and because the truth is everyone has a sweet spot in terms of a rep range that works best for each muscle. That's not to say changing it up once in a while's not a good idea but bottom line those sweet spots generally don't change, which is why you'll notice that the ranges in routines of guys like Scott, Oliva and Schwarzenegger didn't change that much over the decades. They had maybe two ranges for each muscle, one off-season the other pre-contest.
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I really believe that some here like the low reps due to ego.
as opposed to lifting for bigger muscles, which ISN"T about ego? ???
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kinda depends on if we're talking failure or not going to failure here. say you're stopping short of failure and still got 2-3 reps in you then 5 reps isnt that low. but if you're going to failure on your last set and is struggling reaching 5 reps and maybe just get 4 in say shoulder presses, then there might be a risk for injury there.
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All you intellectuals suck. Debussey don't understand anything of what you = writing. What is a satelite cell?
Shut up and lift.
pol pot
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kinda depends on if we're talking failure or not going to failure here. say you're stopping short of failure and still got 2-3 reps in you then 5 reps isnt that low. but if you're going to failure on your last set and is struggling reaching 5 reps and maybe just get 4 in say shoulder presses, then there might be a risk for injury there.
thats one aspect that alot of idiots on here forget when talking about 'low reps'. they think doing 5s = going to failure with heavy weight. (which increases risk of injury alot more compared to avoiding failure) in general i think its best to avoid failure, and stay 1-2 reps away from it. altho failure will happen from time to time when you try to push the poundages.
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The injury suffered by this thread's author's a perfect example of the heightened injury potential actually, regardless of whether some here like low reps and haven't suffered the same thing. Not to say it will happen to everyone, but the probability for injury goes up with higher weights and lower reps, it's pretty much common sense. That's why top BBs don't go with low reps in general using very heavy weight, they know better than to let ego get in the way. They go with fairly heavy weight relative to their strength in the 6-12 range for the most part with some changeups once in a while for contrast.
On a cost-benefit basis it's debatable whether lower reps will make any significant difference in terms of development. Those espousing low reps might've made the same or better gains on other programs. On the other hand the cost in terms of increased risk of injury is beyond debate.
Poor form is only possibly cause of injury. Even with perfect form the potential for injury's always higher with heavy weights for most people, period. The connective tissues and joints are overloaded with resistance they're not totally in control of when the reps are low. There's also precious little mind-muscle connection with very heavy weight.
Shoulder imbalances are only one cause of injury, there are plenty of people who are candidates for injury including Bob Chick who had no imbalance at all. Many just don't have the physique to handle low reps and very heavy poundages. It's pretty much common sense that huge poundages put tremendous strain on the joints and connective tissues.
I really believe that some here like the low reps due to ego. That's great for powerlifting, but notice that most of the strong BBs don't go with low reps on a regular basis for the reasons i've outlined both heightened risk of injury and also the fact that it's not as good in general for development. And once they're injured the don't have to be told twice on avoiding low reps. ;)
Varying the reps for shock value's cute but isn't essential either, both because there are many ways to add shock value outside of doing this, and because the truth is everyone has a sweet spot in terms of a rep range that works best for each muscle. That's not to say changing it up once in a while's not a good idea but bottom line those sweet spots generally don't change, which is why you'll notice that the ranges in routines of guys like Scott, Oliva and Schwarzenegger didn't change that much over the decades. They had maybe two ranges for each muscle, one off-season the other pre-contest.
i wont comment 'low' reps vs 'high' reps as i already expressed my opinion on that.
you forget that most pros did work heavy with pretty low reps when they were up and coming and growing. you cant build your argumentation on pros who have basically already achieved all the mass they need. when a pro says he is refining his muscle with higher reps and that he doesnt go heavy any more its because he has become a pussy (built the mass already) and/or injury preventention (as you said)
finally: both oliva and schwarzenegger did do alot of low repetition training in the beginning of their training careers. as they years went by for these two, the percentage of time spent doing low rep work decreased. (arnold always said you have to keep some heavy work in there tho, which is correct)
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you cant build your argumentation on pros who have basically already achieved all the mass they need. when a pro says he is refining his muscle with higher reps and that he doesnt go heavy any more its because he has become a pussy (built the mass already) and/or injury preventention (as you said)
this is what always drove me nuts about the "such and such pro used HIT" argument.
when you read interviews with the bodybuilders, they almost all, nigh universally, talk about how when they were younger they lifted ultra heavy, but now they lift "smart".
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thats one aspect that alot of idiots on here forget when talking about 'low reps'. they think doing 5s = going to failure with heavy weight. (which increases risk of injury alot more compared to avoiding failure) in general i think its best to avoid failure, and stay 1-2 reps away from it. altho failure will happen from time to time when you try to push the poundages.
you know alot of experts will tell you stopping two reps sort of complete failure is a completete waste of time
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you know alot of experts will tell you stopping two reps sort of complete failure is a completete waste of time
lol
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Have to agree with SlaveBoy1980 for the most part. Also that Sergio and Arnold (believe he set some records in his home country) both got their start as Olympic lifters. Sergios older brother, back in Cuba, was well into lifting. And according to Sergio, much bigger and stronger than he...that would be something to see). And with most Pro's, the mass was already there. It was the refinement and detail work that caused their most attention. And of course the chemical boost that added to their already large muscle mass.
From those that I have seen workout, some of the top guy's and Pro's never really go to the point of failure, at any time. Always appear to have a couple of reps left in the tank. Not that they are coasting though, but not exactly busting their nuts on every exercise either.
May surprise a lot of folks but muscle mass can be built with higher reps (up to and inclucing 20) as well as with lower reps. As said before, 3 can do for you what 20 can not and vice versa. Experiment on your own to find the millon dollar workout for you alone. Good Luck.
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lol
why is that funny
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i think we need all 3 rep ranges for maximum benefits for weight training. the last few years i have used all rep ranges and grown very well, i also have gained a lot of strength this way.
Example.
Heavy bench day...chest(for bodybuilders)
Flat bench - warm ups, triple, double, triple
Incline DB - 3 sets of 6-10 reps
cable flyes - 3 sets of 12-15 reps
This routine has helped myself and many other people make steady strength gains while adding a good amount of size...assuming you are eating enough and resting.
8)
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overload but you are a powerlifting bodybuilder.. you care about how strong you are... for myself; the low rep range (like doubles and triples) arent going to do anything but make me carry more plates my next workout ! LOL.. the lowest i ever go is 5 reps... and i do that just about every workout for at least one set on a major compound movement... but most of my sets ly somewhere between 6-12 reps
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overload but you are a powerlifting bodybuilder.. you care about how strong you are... for myself; the low rep range (like doubles and triples) arent going to do anything but make me carry more plates my next workout ! LOL.. the lowest i ever go is 5 reps... and i do that just about every workout for at least one set on a major compound movement... but most of my sets ly somewhere between 6-12 reps
To each his own my friend...we all like our own little protocols.
It's all about doing what we like and what works for us...you are on the right track, so just stick to what you enjoy.
i promise you those doubles and triples made my "sets of 6-12" go up quite a bit... ;)
But you are right, i've always focused my training on how much weight i can move.
8)
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i want to stay as weak as i can so i NEVER have to load up 22 plates on a leg press like ronnie had to do ! LOL !! ;D
no, but seriously, i do like to move more weight..it definitely feels good to be pushing more plates and FEELING more muscular as well as looking more muscular.. but i just let the strength come along at whatever pace it wants while i push the growth as fast as it can
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i want to stay as weak as i can so i NEVER have to load up 22 plates on a leg press like ronnie had to do ! LOL !! ;D
no, but seriously, i do like to move more weight..it definitely feels good to be pushing more plates and FEELING more muscular as well as looking more muscular.. but i just let the strength come along at whatever pace it wants while i push the growth as fast as it can
yea but if your moving more weight progressively then your bound to get bigger...you cant really get stronger without getting bigger...so to get big you have to move big...(thats my understanding)
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yea but if your moving more weight progressively then your bound to get bigger...you cant really get stronger without getting bigger...so to get big you have to move big...(thats my understanding)
well imo yes and no
yes, there has to bbe some kind of strength increase while you grow..
BUT look at powerlifting meets where 170 lb guys are benching over 350.. these guys werent born benching that much...they grew much much stronger, but because of the way they train and probably the way they eat too they dont grow they just get stronger
the low rep ranges dont cause much hypertrophy activation.. the best is 6-12 to complete failure...weight doesnt really matter what matters is reaching failure within the desired rep range...
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well imo yes and no
yes, there has to bbe some kind of strength increase while you grow..
BUT look at powerlifting meets where 170 lb guys are benching over 350.. these guys werent born benching that much...they grew much much stronger, but because of the way they train and probably the way they eat too they dont grow they just get stronger
the low rep ranges dont cause much hypertrophy activation.. the best is 6-12 to complete failure...weight doesnt really matter what matters is reaching failure within the desired rep range...
i know what your saying and its a real valid point but like you said about the powerlifters i mean they arent trying to get bigger but they are getting stronger and still getting bigger but still you get bigger as long as your getting stronger...and im not going to speak on the going to failure ive never done it till today and it was a hell of a workout...and for my persoanl goals i want to get stronger and bigger...and hopefully this new program with going to failure HIT style is a perfect combo of strength gain and size gain...
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well imo yes and no
yes, there has to bbe some kind of strength increase while you grow..
BUT look at powerlifting meets where 170 lb guys are benching over 350.. these guys werent born benching that much...they grew much much stronger, but because of the way they train and probably the way they eat too they dont grow they just get stronger
the low rep ranges dont cause much hypertrophy activation.. the best is 6-12 to complete failure...weight doesnt really matter what matters is reaching failure within the desired rep range...
you're talking singles, and you're also talking a sport in which large jumps are made in strength by fixing form and working on efficiency.
if you lock down your form and go from benching 225x5 to 315x5, every single muscle involved is going to be considerably bigger.
as for that 170 guy, chances are when he was benching 135 he also weighed the same. you'll almost never see a guy who weighs 165 that puts 150 pounds on his bench and stays the same weight unless he lost a lot of fat along the way.
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going from 225 for 5 to 315 for 5, sure, regardless of how you train; if your eating half way decent there will be some kind of muscular growth. HOW MUCH GROWTH is dependant on the rep range you utilize to progress from the one strength to other. if your lifting in a rep range of 1-4 when your make the strength progression, you are goin to reach that strength very quickly, but your not going to grow very much. if you make that jump in strength utilizing rep ranges 6-12, making the jump in strength is going to take longer, but during that progression you will grow much more than using the rep range of 1-4.
:)
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going from 225 for 5 to 315 for 5, sure, regardless of how you train; if your eating half way decent there will be some kind of muscular growth. HOW MUCH GROWTH is dependant on the rep range you utilize to progress from the one strength to other. if your lifting in a rep range of 1-4 when your make the strength progression, you are goin to reach that strength very quickly, but your not going to grow very much. if you make that jump in strength utilizing rep ranges 6-12, making the jump in strength is going to take longer, but during that progression you will grow much more than using the rep range of 1-4.
:)
you need to make up your mind. :D
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going from 225 for 5 to 315 for 5, sure, regardless of how you train; if your eating half way decent there will be some kind of muscular growth. HOW MUCH GROWTH is dependant on the rep range you utilize to progress from the one strength to other. if your lifting in a rep range of 1-4 when your make the strength progression, you are goin to reach that strength very quickly, but your not going to grow very much. if you make that jump in strength utilizing rep ranges 6-12, making the jump in strength is going to take longer, but during that progression you will grow much more than using the rep range of 1-4.
:)
well sure, because at the extremely low rep end a lot of the progress comes in the form of recruitment and neuron efficiency. that's how you can literally put 50 pounds on someone's bench through a few form tweaks and teaching him how to use leg drive and the lats.
but i'm talking about straight up increases in muscular strength. it's like Dante said, take one guy and put him through all the crazy giant sets and drop sets for his legs you want, he might grow a little. take that same guy and put 200 pounds on his max squat and his legs will grow a lot.
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you need to make up your mind. :D
not everything is cut and dry one way or the other, SLAVE, ive been consistant with what im saying...
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not everything is cut and dry one way or the other, SLAVE, ive been consistant with what im saying...
lol
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slave ive seen nothing from you displayin any actual knowledge on this board. your arrogance is not backed up by anything to be arrogant about.
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slave ive seen nothing from you displayin any actual knowledge on this board. your arrogance is not backed up by anything to be arrogant about.
thats because you only talk and never listen. not that your small brain has any analytical capabilities, so it doesnt really matter :D. your all copy and paste , 'bro'.
hope this helps
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slave ive seen nothing from you displayin any actual knowledge on this board. your arrogance is not backed up by anything to be arrogant about.
To the contrary, I agree 100% with pretty much every piece of advice he's given on here. He obviously knows his stuff. Check out his training log. He's pushing poundages that you might be pushing, with luck and a lot of hard work, 6-8 years down the road. I think you'd be best served not dishing out your own advice and instead keeping an open mind and being receptive to what far more experienced guys say. Otherwise, you'll never get very far. Take that FWIW.
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but i'm talking about straight up increases in muscular strength. it's like Dante said, take one guy and put him through all the crazy giant sets and drop sets for his legs you want, he might grow a little. take that same guy and put 200 pounds on his max squat and his legs will grow a lot.
Yup. There are really no constants in things like this. I've never had a problem growing with lower rep ranges on the compound movements, though I used to and still do cycle rep ranges and throw in a few weeks here and there for higher reps for good measure and to keep from getting stale. Everybody's different, to a degree.
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slave if i EVER copy and paste something or write anything that isnt coming from my own knowledge and experience i ALWAYS make sure to put down the actual source of that information. "all copy and paste", ...lol.. you, my friend, are all "speculation".. ;)
panda strength claims are rediculous and, IMO, homophobic (LOL), but his lifts are very similar to what i do..and i do higher volume workouts
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slave if i EVER copy and paste something or write anything that isnt coming from my own knowledge and experience i ALWAYS make sure to put down the actual source of that information. "all copy and paste", ...lol.. you, my friend, are all "speculation".. ;)
panda strength claims are rediculous and, IMO, homophobic (LOL), but his lifts are very similar to what i do..and i do higher volume workouts
So you're inclining the 120 DBs for multiple sets of 10-12 reps?
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Hey, compare your dick size elsewhere.
I respect Pandy and Slave on this forum and their advices fall in line with friends of mine who are HEAD athletic and weight trainers at D1 universities. These guys get six figures a year to ensure that athletes gain the size, speed and strength they need to perform. Most football players I worked with are bigger and in better shape than most on here and they follow workouts similar to those proscribed by these two.
Candy, take it easy and learn from people with experience. If you disagree, fine, but do not assume that what you paste is the end all be all of lifting knowledge. Take what you like, leave the rest, and stay humble.
Train hard guys.
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Hey, compare your dick size elsewhere.
I respect Pandy and Slave on this forum and their advices fall in line with friends of mine who are HEAD athletic and weight trainers at D1 universities. These guys get six figures a year to ensure that athletes gain the size, speed and strength they need to perform. Most football players I worked with are bigger and in better shape than most on here and they follow workouts similar to those proscribed by these two.
Candy, take it easy and learn from people with experience. If you disagree, fine, but do not assume that what you paste is the end all be all of lifting knowledge. Take what you like, leave the rest, and stay humble.
Train hard guys.
HEY AWESOME WAY TO NOT TAKE SIDES AND STAY OBJECTIVE, MODERATOR ::)
you guys are fucking douchebags, honestly
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So you're inclining the 120 DBs for multiple sets of 10-12 reps?
what the fuck does it matter what i lift ?
sergio olivia rarely if ever used more than 185 lbs on the bench press throughout his career
pretty damn good chest, no?
weight doesnt mean jack fucking shit
read a book, or, better yet, learn how to isolate with mind+muscleconnection
and to answer your question, that is irrelevaant to the discussion of hypertophy rep ranges, yes i can easily do working sets with the 120's if i feel like being a fucking idiot and using that much weight...which is completely unnecessary... i can make myself grow faster using 90 lb dumbells and making them feel like 150 lb dumbells
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No, it's telling you to not dismiss everything you agree with and to keep an open mind. If you don't, that's fine but don't come on here and start fights by attacking members. Fair enough?
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No, it's telling you to not dismiss everything you agree with and to keep an open mind. If you don't, that's fine but don't come on here and start fights by attacking members. Fair enough?
id didnt attack anybody, untill afetr i was personally insulted for no reason, BRO.. re-read the posts
and saying "what you paste" in regards to my posts is also a blatant smack in the face, and BRO, for all i care your disrespectful ass can go suck a dick
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what the fuck does it matter what i lift ?
Settle down, sport. You claimed your lifts were similar to his (see below), except that you use those weights for higher reps than he does. I was just asking what your lifts were.
his lifts are very similar to what i do..and i do higher volume workouts
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Settle down, sport. You claimed your lifts were similar to his (see below), except that you use those weights for higher reps than he does. I was just asking what your lifts were.
yes i can lift the same amount of weight he does. and yes i can do it high reps high volume. i have good natural muscle stamina and i actually tend to get stronger as i go through a workout. to a point, of course.
but i dont use any more weight than i need to. and when im in the zone i can make one plate per side feel like 3 plates per side. and thats all that matters, what the muscle feels its lifting, not what it actually is lifting.
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id didnt attack anybody, untill afetr i was personally insulted for no reason, BRO.. re-read the posts
and saying "what you paste" in regards to my posts is also a blatant smack in the face, and BRO, for all i care your disrespectful ass can go suck a dick
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yes i can lift the same amount of weight he does.
No offense but you're lying through your teeth. We've all seen your "after" pics. One thing I hate more than anything else is a bullshitter. Be honest or don't say anything at all.
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No offense but you're lying through your teeth. We've all seen your "after" pics. One thing I hate more than anything else is a bullshitter. Be honest or don't say anything at all.
i dont give a fuck what you think i can lift and i have no reason to lie about how strong i am. i would prefer to lok like i lift 500 lbs and really only lift 50 lbs, than to lift 500 lbs and look like i can lift only 50
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No, it's telling you to not dismiss everything you agree with and to keep an open mind. If you don't, that's fine but don't come on here and start fights by attacking members. Fair enough?
LOL, haven't followed the new and improved candidizzle much have you?
Many guys much larger and more experienced have tried in vain to give him advice, he has pissed in all our faces and gone his own direction. An open mind is not in his vocabulary.
Fuck candidildo. That is all.
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chaos your welcome to come up here to my city with alex and try to start some shit with me too
fucking shit talker
i challenge any of you guys to find something i said in this thread in regards to the ACTUAL subject of the thread that is incorrect... ::)
and chaos whos bbetter developed than i am that i havent listened to, huh ? you, mr 200 lb conhead looking douche? LOL, thats laughable... panda here has decent size but is bloated realy doesnt look like hes carrying too much acttual muscle... so whos better developed?
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i dont give a fuck what you think i can lift and i have no reason to lie about how strong i am. i would prefer to lok like i lift 500 lbs and really only lift 50 lbs, than to lift 500 lbs and look like i can lift only 50
the problem is, though, you don't look like you "lift" (you mean "bench press"???) 500 lbs. You don't even look like you lift 200 lbs. Not flaming, just being honest.
I don't know why you're getting so edgy. You made a ridiculous, unbelievable claim, you got called on it, and now you're basically on suicide watch.
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Alright, back on track or I lock the thread. If anybody cannot take differing advice then don't post on the forum. You'd be surprised what you learn with an open mind. A year ago I never would have listened to JPM but his style of lifting made a difference from me but I certainly didn't flame him back then.
Enjoy gents.
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the problem is, though, you don't look like you "lift" (you mean "bench press"???) 500 lbs. You don't even look like you lift 200 lbs. Not flaming, just being honest.
I don't know why you're getting so edgy. You made a ridiculous, unbelievable claim, you got called on it, and now you're basically on suicide watch.
yeah, youve put me on suicide watch,m your sooooo intuitive at reading into peoples posts and really getting into their heads, panda, youve got me so depressed its killing me on the inside. i want to die !
::)
and you have got no idea what i look like bro ...the last pictures you have seen of me were taken late last summer...
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Alright, back on track or I lock the thread. If anybody cannot take differing advice then don't post on the forum. You'd be surprised what you learn with an open mind. A year ago I never would have listened to JPM but his style of lifting made a difference from me but I certainly didn't flame him back then.
Enjoy gents.
I agree with alot of things JPM says, he knows what works for him and has good ideas. I'm always up for trying new ideas, exercises and going outside the box to do it. That is half the fun of working out.chaos your welcome to come up here to my city with alex and try to start some shit with me too
fucking shit talker
i challenge any of you guys to find something i said in this thread in regards to the ACTUAL subject of the thread that is incorrect... ::)
and chaos whos bbetter developed than i am that i havent listened to, huh ? you, mr 200 lb conhead looking douche? LOL, thats laughable... panda here has decent size but is bloated realy doesnt look like hes carrying too much acttual muscle... so whos better developed?
That's 270lb conehead looking douche to you, and you know where to find me if you want to back up your tough talk. I'm finished with you here cap is a good guy and I won't f up his board.
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thanks you contribute nothing and you have ZERO knowledge of how to make a muscle grow, AND if you weigh 270 you have the absolute worst genetics for bodybuilding i have ever seen on a human being...
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thanks you contribute nothing and you have ZERO knowledge of how to make a muscle grow, AND if you weigh 270 you have the absolute worst genetics for bodybuilding i have ever seen on a human being...
???
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thanks you contribute nothing and you have ZERO knowledge of how to make a muscle grow, AND if you weigh 270 you have the absolute worst genetics for bodybuilding i have ever seen on a human being...
LMAO, look who's talking!
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chaos your welcome to come up here to my city with alex and try to start some shit with me too
fucking shit talker
i challenge any of you guys to find something i said in this thread in regards to the ACTUAL subject of the thread that is incorrect... ::)
and chaos whos bbetter developed than i am that i havent listened to, huh ? you, mr 200 lb conhead looking douche? LOL, thats laughable... panda here has decent size but is bloated realy doesnt look like hes carrying too much acttual muscle... so whos better developed?
mr down's syndrome 2008. ;D
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mr down's syndrome 2008. ;D
Come on, man, you know this kid can teach us all a thing or two in the gym. ;D
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i have grown up doing this... i know MY body and how to work it out better than i know how to walk or write or breathe... maybe i am not as familiar with your body's structure and how it is best stimulated... but as for my own body... im pretty damn good at working it out :)
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i have grown up doing this... i know MY body and how to work it out better than i know how to walk or write or breathe... maybe i am not as familiar with your body's structure and how it is best stimulated... but as for my own body... im pretty damn good at working it out :)
You talk the talk, why don't you post a current pic to back it up?
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You talk the talk, why don't you post a current pic to back it up?
my personal genetics has nothing to do with what i know or how wel i know my body..
if what your incinuating was true charles glass chad nicols and hany rambod would be 1,2,3 at the mr O every year
besides.. i already have said before that i dont like the way my body looks and that im far from looking dcent
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my personal genetics has nothing to do with what i know or how wel i know my body..
if what your incinuating was true charles glass chad nicols and hany rambod would be 1,2,3 at the mr O every year
besides.. i already have said before that i dont like the way my body looks and that im far from looking dcent
With every post you make, I'm convinced you're a troll. A very good one, I'll hand it to ya.
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With every post you make, I'm convinced you're a troll. A very good one, I'll hand it to ya.
what do you mean by calling me a troll
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if what your incinuating was true charles glass chad nicols and hany rambod would be 1,2,3 at the mr O every year
first off "insinuating". if you're gonna use a big word, spell it right.
secondly, the difference between you and glas, nicholls, and hany rambod is that they have taken their theories and produced champions. what the hell have you done with your "methods"? build a mediocre body that needed steroids to make it to 230 pounds?
people trust those men because they have trained and created the best of the best, thus it doesn't matter if they look like the champions they've made. you, on the other hand, have done NOTHING.
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first off "insinuating". if you're gonna use a big word, spell it right.
secondly, the difference between you and glas, nicholls, and hany rambod is that they have taken their theories and produced champions. what the hell have you done with your "methods"? build a mediocre body that needed steroids to make it to 230 pounds?
people trust those men because they have trained and created the best of the best, thus it doesn't matter if they look like the champions they've made. you, on the other hand, have done NOTHING.
dont forget to add milos to that list. someone who believes in giant sets and little weight.
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hjgkhgbmhbmhkb blah blah blah
magoo i have taken a 265 lb worthless fat body and turned it into something decent... :)
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magoo i have taken a 265 lb worthless fat body and turned it into something decent... :)
exactly. you dieted down. good job. you know how to lose fat. however, what you need to understand is that even your "big" natural pictures are scrawny as all get out. the back shot you posted showed absolutely no definition, something even my fat ass has a fair amount of.
you get credit for 'getting into shape'. you get lambasted for acting like a training guru. listen to me buddy, ANY fatass put on ANY lifting schedule, given a solid diet, will have your results. you look like every high school soccer player i knew.
props for trimming down and going from doughboy to underwear model, but don't get too big for your britches and think you can compare yourself to charles glass.
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you can COMPARE a high school second string wide receiver to terrell owens. ;)
nothign wrong with that... as long as your not arguing that they are similar or that the high school 2 stringer is superior in any way.
anyways; it doesnt matter what you guys think of what i know. it seems as if i were to post "good question" in response to a question you, panda, slave, and chaos would all jump in a try to create a 5 page debate over why what i said was wrong./.. LOL...
PATHETIC
keep doing your things tho,,, your all skinny fat big jointed wanna-bes
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you don't get it, candy-pants.
in the first place, you do look EXACTLY like MANY soccer players i knew. at least your "natural" pictures did. in those shots, if i put a soccer shirt and shorts on you you wouldn't have even been the biggest kid on the team. deal.
but that's irrelevant. the problem is that you think your knowledge is infallible. you think you know everything about everything and any contradictions obviously mean the person is wrong, because it's not what YOU think. chaos and panda, for whatever fat they carry, have FAR more muscle than you do. i would take lifting advice from them any day.
and how did you come about this knowledge? how do you know your theories are the best? what results have they gotten? mediocre results that necessitated steroid use when you're not even old enough to buy alcohol? it'd be different if you'd trained others and could actually SHOW something for yourself, but you can't.
you need a shit load of humility man. even wicked admits that he has a lot to learn and that dude's a monster compared to pretty much everyone here.
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magoo just because i dont show respect to a bunch of dumbshits who think things like strength=size, inclines hit the same area as declines, and all you need are compound movements...
for those people who do ACTUALLY know things... ask them if i have humility or if i think i know everything ?
;)
it robably seems like im a know it all t you because, well, compared to you ! i do kno it all ;D
love you babay
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magoo just because i dont show respect to a bunch of dumbshits who think things like strength=size
I'm damn confused over this point. Alot of guys on here swear by this, and others go for the pump
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magoo just because i dont show respect to a bunch of dumbshits who think things like strength=size, inclines hit the same area as declines, and all you need are compound movements...
for those people who do ACTUALLY know things... ask them if i have humility or if i think i know everything ?
;)
it robably seems like im a know it all t you because, well, compared to you ! i do kno it all ;D
love you babay
Would you mind running your messages through spell-check before posting them?
I'm getting sick of my eyes bleeding.
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I'm damn confused over this point. Alot of guys on here swear by this, and others go for the pump
in the basic exercises:
focus on getting stronger mainly in the 5-8 rep range. (if your into bodybuilding)
add in a couple of higher rep sets (10-12..up to 15 for legs) for metabolic work.
and once or twice per year do short periods of lower rep work (1-5), to really push strength. the strength you get from these short periods of low rep work will help you use heavier weights when you go back to slightly higher reps.
never base your training around the pump. a couple of high rep sets at the end of the workout will take care of the pump.
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okay theres my "in" to end this thread in agreement on a good note.
yes, i believe the pump is definitely NOT what you want to work for. pump addicts, like slave calls them, are not doing anything productive in regards to buliding muscle by just trying to get blood in the muscle.
if you work to failure in the 6-8 rep range you will defninitely grow
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okay theres my "in" to end this thread in agreement on a good note.
yes, i believe the pump is definitely NOT what you want to work for. pump addicts, like slave calls them, are not doing anything productive in regards to buliding muscle by just trying to get blood in the muscle.
if you work to failure in the 6-8 rep range you will defninitely grow
no, thats not enough. you have to add weight to the bar as time goes by. lots of pump addicted people forget this.
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no, thats not enough. you have to add weight to the bar as time goes by. lots of pump addicted people forget this.
that is the fundamental principle of growth. pick a rep range anywhere from 5 to 15 reps. if, over time, you add weight, your muscles will get bigger. end of story.
and candidizzle, you are the dumb shit. you have neither strength NOR size. so clearly you need to heavily re-evaluate.
oh wait, i forgot, you have a little size now. thanks to your steroid cycle genius training methods.
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no, thats not enough. you have to add weight to the bar as time goes by. lots of pump addicted people forget this.
And when you plateau on an exercise (everyone does) just switch to a new one (most forget that and get mentally frustrated).
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And when you plateau on an exercise (everyone does) just switch to a new one (most forget that and get mentally frustrated).
yes, and/or deload and start under your max and ramp it up again over a few weeks time.
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And when you plateau on an exercise (everyone does) just switch to a new one (most forget that and get mentally frustrated).
yep. there's a number of ways to switch it up. change your schedule. go from doing sets of 4-6 to sets of 8-12. do straight sets instead of pyramids.
there are tons of ways to mix it up without changing the fundamental principle of progressive overload.
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hmmmm so i offer a truce and an agreement and i get corrected and called a dumbshit.
:)
very mature, gentleman; and this is coming from an immature 19 year old too. so what does that tell you?
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I am honoured that so small a thread has grown to such length... ;D
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I am honoured that so small a thread has grown to such length... ;D
That's what she said.
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in the basic exercises:
focus on getting stronger mainly in the 5-8 rep range. (if your into bodybuilding)
add in a couple of higher rep sets (10-12..up to 15 for legs) for metabolic work.
and once or twice per year do short periods of lower rep work (1-5), to really push strength. the strength you get from these short periods of low rep work will help you use heavier weights when you go back to slightly higher reps.
never base your training around the pump. a couple of high rep sets at the end of the workout will take care of the pump.
You need to start charging some $ for this advice...lol
8)
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Actually I have no idea what a pump is; I think it is a genetic thing. I don't respond to creatine or NO either. I have never felt a pump during training, ever. Strange I guess.
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As Overload said in so many words........ Priceless!
Anyone does not need to crave a pump, but a pump is usually a bi-product of a good BB'ing workout. Notice I said BB'ing workout. Strength work and hypertrophy do not always go hand in hand. If you are getting stronger, that does not always mean you are getting bigger. Seeing a middleweight PL'er now days push up 420+ for reps with a body's that looks "in good shape" but not anywhere near overbearing in muscle size.
A lot of BB'ers morf into strength training, without them knowing it, rather than pure BB'ing. Who really cares if you can bench 400 with a 44" chest and the guy working out next to you can only bench 315, but he has a 49" chest. And is much more massive all over than you. Genetics or just smarter training?
If your workout is sound and you are making progress on 5-8 reps than there is no need to do a couple of sets of higher reps at the end of the workout. That would be refered to as a Finishing set. This would also apply to leg exercises. If training with serious intent in the first place, than a finishing set is never needed.
The pace of a workout can influence the amount of the pump one gets in true BB'ing. Anywhere from 60 to 90 seconds between sets. This is called Time Under Tension (TUT) ,which some folks think only means the actually exercise it's self. It's the whole time of that workout. You do not need higher reps to achieve this. If hitting chest and triceps on a certain day and it take an hour and a half than your going at a snell's pace. Or you just like to look at yourself in the gym mirrors. Cutting that chest work time down to under 45 minutes (or less) might be a goal to keep in mind. Might surprise yourself as to renewed muscle gains.
If Deicide wants to experience the thrill of a pump than he might try running the rack. As one example; These are done non stop, no rest at all:
DB curls starting with a pair of 10's for 2 reps (some prefer 1 rep) when done grap the pair of 20's and do 2 more reps, than 30's, 40's etc. After getting into heavier DB's you may be limited to 1 rep. Keep advancing up until you fail at whatever the top weight might be. Now without any rest run the rack back done to the next set of lighter DB's. Go all the way back down to the original pair of 10's. If you prefer delts than do DB overhead presses. Remember again, this is non stop...no water breaks or short pauses. Top guy's do these ever so often. Not as part of a general workout plan, more of a shock value. Also consider the One and One Half system for a pump. Or Quad sets, again non stop.
As far as I am concerned (on a personal bases..others can do what they wish) an excessive pump just gives a bloated look to the muscles. Some tend to look like a over grown marshmallow after awhile when just working for the pump. And a hyper pump is never a indication that there is any real muscle growth to be had. It gives a false value to the workout. Good Luck.
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Not so much about rep range that provides the aspect of growth. Has more to do with TUT, or Time Under Tension.
You can do five reps at a 302 tempo, and your total TUT is 25 seconds. You can do 6 reps at 31X, 2 reps at 525, or 8 reps using a count of 211. All these tempos are between 20-60 seconds, which in studies it's been shown that is where hypertrophy takes place. Lower reps, 20 seconds and under, tend to make the muscles thicker.
Depending on your goal, you should use all tempos, and rep ranges. Vary them accordingly though. If you're a marathon runner, you probably won't be doing many singles attempting to break records. On the other side, if you are a sprinter, it will help you since the hamstrings are fast twitch based and respond favorably to heavy training.
Just as you would not eat steak every day, all day at each meal...why should you stay with one type of training and/or tempo/rep range?
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Actually I have no idea what a pump is; I think it is a genetic thing. I don't respond to creatine or NO either. I have never felt a pump during training, ever. Strange I guess.
In most cases, it = very beneficial to be on a calorie surplus if you wanna feel the pump.
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In most cases, it = very beneficial to be on a calorie surplus if you wanna feel the pump.
Way too stressed and fat for that... ;D
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Way too stressed and fat for that... ;D
eat a meal with a shit load of salt and drink alot of water before and after and go with very high intensity...
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The injury suffered by this thread's author's a perfect example of the heightened injury potential actually, regardless of whether some here like low reps and haven't suffered the same thing. Not to say it will happen to everyone, but the probability for injury goes up with higher weights and lower reps, it's pretty much common sense. That's why top BBs don't go with low reps in general using very heavy weight, they know better than to let ego get in the way. They go with fairly heavy weight relative to their strength in the 6-12 range for the most part with some changeups once in a while for contrast.
On a cost-benefit basis it's debatable whether lower reps will make any significant difference in terms of development. Those espousing low reps might've made the same or better gains on other programs. On the other hand the cost in terms of increased risk of injury is beyond debate.
Poor form is only possibly cause of injury. Even with perfect form the potential for injury's always higher with heavy weights for most people, period. The connective tissues and joints are overloaded with resistance they're not totally in control of when the reps are low. There's also precious little mind-muscle connection with very heavy weight. considering what we see at the gyms these days, it is the LIKELY cause of injury.
Shoulder imbalances are only one cause of injury, there are plenty of people who are candidates for injury including Bob Chick who had no imbalance at all. Many just don't have the physique to handle low reps and very heavy poundages. It's pretty much common sense that huge poundages put tremendous strain on the joints and connective tissues. evidence of that?
I really believe that some here like the low reps due to ego. That's great for powerlifting, but notice that most of the strong BBs don't go with low reps on a regular basis for the reasons i've outlined both heightened risk of injury and also the fact that it's not as good in general for development. And once they're injured the don't have to be told twice on avoiding low reps. ;) Every athlete I know working with lower reps looks better than every BBer I see in the gym.
Varying the reps for shock value's cute but isn't essential either, both because there are many ways to add shock value outside of doing this, and because the truth is everyone has a sweet spot in terms of a rep range that works best for each muscle. That's not to say changing it up once in a while's not a good idea but bottom line those sweet spots generally don't change, which is why you'll notice that the ranges in routines of guys like Scott, Oliva and Schwarzenegger didn't change that much over the decades. They had maybe two ranges for each muscle, one off-season the other pre-contest.
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Everyone is different, but what is your take?
Generally speaking, hypertrophy can be achieved through a variety of methods.
As others have said, it depends on your distribution and type of muscle fibers.
Six reps and less is fast-twitch and will help in terms of power and strength, which indirectly will lead to hypertrophy but if you are only concerned with maximizing lean muscle gain you would probably be served best by staying in the 8-10 rep range.
DIV