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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: candidizzle on June 09, 2008, 01:45:52 PM
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whats up
watching justin harris in the trenches training videos on legs.. he is doing 100 rep sets , 50 rep set.. just a high volume lots of reps style of training...
i have always heard different people talk about high volume for legs being good
but ive always thought that was bullshit; that the legs are a musclke just like anyother and that 6-12 is ideal for legs just like every other...
anyone think th elegs actually do respond better to high volume? any experience or good gains from going high rep sets like that ? and if so, d you know what the science behind higher reps being better for legs, if they are better, than compared to other muscles...
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My legs have always responded best to high volume. I do switch things up from time to time though, going lower reps higher weight for strength for a while then go to lighter weight higher reps for size. I do this about every 12-16 weeks and use periodization throughout. I don't know the 'science' behind why high volume works, but if you think about the fact that your legs are carrying you around all day then they are going to respond best to higher volume work.
Obviously this isn't' the case for everyone, it's just a general thought. I do know of one guy that can't get his legs to grow at all on high volume work.
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what kind of workouts do you do..? would you mind posting up an example of a tough high volume workout..?
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Most people legs respond much better to higher reps and more overall volume.
Read more Candi,this has been talked about by experts for over 50-60 years cat leat.
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Most people legs respond much better to higher reps and more overall volume.
Read more Candi,this has been talked about by experts for over 50-60 years cat leat.
lol
give me the name of a book and ill read it dude i love that shit
anyways, what kind of rep ranges do you do wes? and how many sets? and # exercises ?
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try higher reps for quads and lower for hams
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I train legs 10-12 reps. I seem to need the heavy weights to stay full.
Justin harris trains DC style.and also, powerlifts.
if you do a search on youtube. you can pull up videos of Justin squatting 600 for x15,16 good reps.
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what kind of workouts do you do..? would you mind posting up an example of a tough high volume workout..?
BB Squats - 3x10-12
Front Squats/Hack Squats -3x10-12
Leg Press -3x10-12 Superset with SLDL's
I'll usually then superset Ham Curls with Leg Curls to finish things off, usually just do 2 sets of 12-15 reps of these.
That's one example, right now I'm training hams seperate from quads because my hams need some work. I also switch up stances on all the above exercises, going wide one workout and narrow the next.
I have to be pretty careful with high weight on legs, especially squats. I have arthritis in both of my knees from playing soccer in my younger years so going really heavy is becoming less of an option for me.
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lol
give me the name of a book and ill read it dude i love that shit
anyways, what kind of rep ranges do you do wes? and how many sets? and # exercises ?
Just Google "benefits of high rep leg work or high rep squats".
I usually do around 12-16 sets for quads.............can`t squat anymore because of my back injury.
My workouts are never the same in a row.
A few things I do for legs:
Unilateral leg press,followed by regualar leg press:
I do 20 reps on each leg seperately,then with no rest,20 more with both legs,rest a bit,add weight then 15,rest,add wt.12,108,then another set of 12-15 or so to polish them off.
Gruelling stuff, and one set = each leg seperately,followed by both legs.
Another scenario might be loading 3 plates a side and doing 100 reps...............truly torturous to sat the least.
when I was squatting I would take a heavy weight and do one set of 20 no matter how long it took.............Google "breathing squats".
I also do other leg exercises and at times do super-sets,tri-sets,giant-sets,drop-sets,etc.
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whats up
watching justin harris in the trenches training videos on legs.. he is doing 100 rep sets , 50 rep set.. just a high volume lots of reps style of training...
i have always heard different people talk about high volume for legs being good
but ive always thought that was bullshit; that the legs are a musclke just like anyother and that 6-12 is ideal for legs just like every other...
anyone think th elegs actually do respond better to high volume? any experience or good gains from going high rep sets like that ? and if so, d you know what the science behind higher reps being better for legs, if they are better, than compared to other muscles...
If you want to try higher reps, why not do giant sets? Different exercises, each 10 reps.
Lay out 5 exercises, do 10 reps each back to back, three pyramiding sets on all exercises.
Try it if you're interested in doing high reps in that range.
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squat: 3x5-8 + back off set 1x12-15. thats all you need for quads as long your adding weight to the bar.
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assuming you're built for squats, got the technique right etc etc
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squat: 3x5-8 + back off set 1x12-15. thats all you need for quads as long your adding weight to the bar.
Spot on.
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i will say this: muscles can be different. one reason is that you DO walk on your legs. however, making my 1-3RM go up on squats did more for me than all those huge 100 rep sets.
everyone gets all wrapped up in the tom platz theory of leg training even though for 99.999% of us it'll never work. because leg day is considered the "hardest day", i think too many trainers get caught up not in doing what's necessary to cause growth, but in making leg day the most balls out painful workout possible, which can be really, really counterproductive.
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1-3 reps is fine for power but more reps = more time under tension.
I have used low reps and got pretty strong for my size (405 squat below paralell at 160 pounds bodyweight,315-10,370-3 all legal legit depth at about 165 and in my 50`s.)but my legs which were always hard to grow,still looked like sticks.
More reps as well as more total sets helped to bring them up a lot.
Still not tree trunks by any stretch of the imagination,but big big gains for this genetically deficient stickman! :)
Best bet is to experiment with different scenarios and weigh the results yourself............actu ally this is the only way to find out what you respond best to.
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in my leg training today i did alot of sets for 15 reps each. DAMN i couldnt do half tthe weight i normally use, and my legs were just FRIED.
4 hours later they are still looking full pumped jacked
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in my leg training today i did alot of sets for 15 reps each. DAMN i couldnt do half tthe weight i normally use, and my legs were just FRIED.
4 hours later they are still looking full pumped jacked
tell tale signs of pump addiction.
your pump addicted.
did you 'shock' your muscles and use totally different exercises from last week? how did you measure progress? the thing is that if you change everything every workout, you have no baseline to compare too. but hey it feels good and your pumped, has to be working right? :D
muscle growth isnt about going to the gym to get a pump, its about lifting more than you did last time (obviously you wont be able to add weight or reps every workout...but its should be the no 1 goal). never change exercises so much that progression becomes forgotten and hard to track.
simplify your training, so you can control it, dominate it, numerize it, and so you have total overview of the all the different training variables.
-log your workouts
-keep workouts comparable inorder to facilitate measurement of progress
-focus on strength increases
-be consistant
-deload after 3-6 weeks of heavy training
never be a pump addict.
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tell tale signs of pump addiction.
your pump addicted.
did you 'shock' your muscles and use totally different exercises from last week? how did you measure progress? the thing is that if you change everything every workout, you have no baseline to compare too. but hey it feels good and your pumped, has to be working right? :D
muscle growth isnt about going to the gym to get a pump, its about lifting more than you did last time (obviously you wont be able to add weight or reps every workout...but its should be the no 1 goal). never change exercises so much that progression becomes forgotten and hard to track.
simplify your training, so you can control it, dominate it, numerize it, and so you have total overview of the all the different training variables.
-log your workouts
-keep workouts comparable inorder to facilitate measurement of progress
-focus on strength increases
-be consistant
-deload after 3-6 weeks of heavy training
never be a pump addict.
LOL, you're in for it now. ;D
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tell tale signs of pump addiction.
-log your workouts
-keep workouts comparable inorder to facilitate measurement of progress
-focus on strength increases
-be consistant
-deload after 3-6 weeks of heavy training
Good advice. I don't ever recommend changing up workouts every workout. You have no way to see effectiveness of an exercise. I think staying on an exercise at least 8 weeks is a good minimum. I personally change things up every 12 weeks. I also deload every 4 weeks and take an entire week off (only doing cardio) every 12-16 weeks.
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lol, slaveboy on the attack.
"pump addiction" is hilarious once you evolve past it. i remember doing all sorts of stupid giant sets and drop sets for legs, mixing things up all the time. i measured "progress" by how "jacked" i felt at the end. progress? neh.
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we need to set up rehab centers for these pump addicts.
one type of medication that has often helped in curing pump addiction is powerlifting.
bodybuilding training is for aas users
powerbuilding is how naturals should build muscle.
PAA (Pump Addicts Anonymous) meetings should be held all across the world.
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i train to failure in the 6=12 rep range normally. weight does not matter but reaching true failure in that rep range does.
for legs ive always used that same rep range
today i train the same way i always do except my target rep range for failure was 15-20.
:)
silly slave, the muscle doesnt know how much weight its moving, it only know how much it FEELS like its lifting. :D
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silly slave, the muscle doesnt know how much weight its moving, it only know how much it FEELS like its lifting. :D
small, weak people say this a lot. they don't seem to figure out that it's completely nonsensical.
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tell tale signs of pump addiction.
your pump addicted.
did you 'shock' your muscles and use totally different exercises from last week? how did you measure progress? the thing is that if you change everything every workout, you have no baseline to compare too. but hey it feels good and your pumped, has to be working right? :D
muscle growth isnt about going to the gym to get a pump, its about lifting more than you did last time (obviously you wont be able to add weight or reps every workout...but its should be the no 1 goal). never change exercises so much that progression becomes forgotten and hard to track.
simplify your training, so you can control it, dominate it, numerize it, and so you have total overview of the all the different training variables.
-log your workouts
-keep workouts comparable inorder to facilitate measurement of progress
-focus on strength increases
-be consistant
-deload after 3-6 weeks of heavy training
never be a pump addict.
TRUTH!!!!
8)
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small, weak people say this a lot. they don't seem to figure out that it's completely nonsensical.
hahahaaha
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small, weak people say this a lot. they don't seem to figure out that it's completely nonsensical.
ummm.... so, what; our bodies have little scales and gauges inside that know exactly how much tension in lbs is being put on each muscle fiber ? ::)
you sure are a training genius
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For the most part, I agree with S'80's protest against the pump. Do stay on a solid workout plan for at least 6 weeks. Takes 2 to 3 weeks to get adjusted to something new. Keeps a log book.
One rule that had been ingrained into me by a couple of old BB'ing vet's is, avoid going to failure at any time. Have 1 or 2 (at the most) reps left in the tank. If progress is slow or stopped than have more days between workouts or take a whole week off from training. I usually take two weeks after Power Rack and partial heavy training cycles.
Advancing weight on the bar is important. But with the progressive load system (the backbone of training), increasing the reps to the desired number is also importent. So if you are doing 200lbs on the BP for 5 reps on a 5-8 rep protocol, do not increase the weight on the bar the next workout until you can do the full 8 reps. Than the next workout add weight weight and go back the 5 reps again. See too many guy's getting caught up with adding weight with no mind as to how many reps they should do. Rushing the weight before the body becomes adapted to that new load with more reps. Good Luck.
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working 2 reps short of failure is a complete waste of a set.
heres the deal. working to complete failure the desired rep range for you goals, will result in achieving what that rep range is supposed to do. if you are constantly reaching true muscular failure in the rep range of 6-12, then every workout you will HAVE to increase the weight SOME because the last workout did stimulate SOME strength gains. but you dont move up in weight any quicker than what your strength progression naturally occurs at while training t complete failure in th 6-12 rep range
lets say your bench pressing 245. you reach complete failure at 8 reps. next workout you do 245 again, well your a little big stronger from your last workou so this time you hit 9 reps. next workout, still a litttle stronger, so you hit 10 reps. then 11, then 12. now because yove gotten to the upper end of the rep range you increase the weight to lets say 265 and now you should be back down to hitting true failure at 6-8 reps. then as your strength progresses you move higher into the rep range...then ocne youve reached your upper end you up the weight and go back to the lower end.
its not the weigth but the reaching of muscular failure that is going to make your satellite cels activiate and cause those micro tears and make you grow.
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To the Mercurial Messiah of Manteca:
Three Words...Central Nervous System (CNS)
Two Words.....Fuzzy Logic
One Word......Recovery
Final Words........Good Luck, you will need it.
Side Bar: Catch Phase...Satellite Cells
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To the Mercurial Messiah of Manteca: whoa epic stalking/lurking for somebody i have never seen posin before to name my town
Three Words...Central Nervous System (CNS)what bout it
Two Words.....Fuzzy Logic to me it seems pretty clear maybe you need some glasses
One Word......Recovery what does that have to do with this ? lol..
Final Words........Good Luck, you will need it. i agree !
Side Bar: Catch Phase...Satellite Cells do you even know what those are ? ;D
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i'mma agree with candi that leaving 2 reps in the tank is pointless with two exceptions:
1) when on an INCREDIBLY specific training protocol that calls for sets with a % of your 1RM.
2) isolation/auxiliary work (depending if you're BB or PL). going to balls-out failure on things like curls, side raises, flyes, or leg curls is just crazy.
positive failure is your best bet for general purposes. go as far as you can take it but don't grind any more out. forced reps are a stupid idea and i think HIT has wrecked many an otherwise diligent trainer.
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lets say your bench pressing 245. you reach complete failure at 8 reps. next workout you do 245 again, well your a little big stronger from your last workou so this time you hit 9 reps. next workout, still a litttle stronger, so you hit 10 reps. then 11, then 12. now because yove gotten to the upper end of the rep range you increase the weight to lets say 265 and now you should be back down to hitting true failure at 6-8 reps. then as your strength progresses you move higher into the rep range...then ocne youve reached your upper end you up the weight and go back to the lower end.
Looks great on paper but virtually impossible for most in the real world.
Sattelite cells = too much reading and not enough real world experience!! LOL :)
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Looks great on paper but virtually impossible for most in the real world.
Sattelite cells = too much reading and not enough real world experience!! LOL :)
at that SPEED yes, but as a hypothetical it works.
point is with straight sets you can gauge progress much better than trying mega weird giant sets. i used to use the 2x9 theory pretty well. soon as i hit two sets of 9 i moved up. then i could usually hit the first set of 9 with the new weight, but set 2 would die early.
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Looks great on paper but virtually impossible for most in the real world.
Sattelite cells = too much reading and not enough real world experience!! LOL :)
print in bold = small, close minded foolish way of thinking
:D
first i need to read more then i read too much
the only reason you grow AT ALL from working out is because you create trauma to the muscle which activates things called SATELLITE CELLS that signal for your body to come down and repair and build up the muscle tissue
they are normally dormant and in most human beings they only get activated after physical injury occurs... but as a bodybuilder you are constantly tricking your body into using these satellite cells to make you grow more muscular..
you know how guys will say, i want to hit my upper chest, my middle chest, my lower chest, my inner chest..so i get a big full chest ?? why do you think hat is ? if all you do if flat bench, then most of the tension from those sets occurs on a portion of muscle fibers in the middle portion of the chest. and all the trauma from that sets occurs in those fibers. and only satellite cells in those fibers where trauma occurs get activated. so only growth occurs where those satellite cells were activated, and only satellite cells get activated where trauma occurs.
;)
take some notes old man youve ben taken to school and NO haters theres no google no copy and past no referencing others this is straight from the brain and 100%acurate
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you know how guys will say, i want to hit my upper chest, my middle chest, my lower chest, my inner chest..so i get a big full chest ??
bench press.
hope that helps.
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bench press.
hope that helps.
why do you think hat is ? if all you do if flat bench, then most of the tension from those sets occurs on a portion of muscle fibers in the middle portion of the chest. and all the trauma from that sets occurs in those fibers. and only satellite cells in those fibers where trauma occurs get activated. so only growth occurs where those satellite cells were activated, and only satellite cells get activated where trauma occurs.
;)
hope that helps
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hope that helps
i'm not sure you were listening.
Bench.
Press.
it's always teenage know-it-alls and FLEX magazine hucksters that talk about how if you only flat bench you'll have a droopy chest, despite the fact that even EMG tests don't support that ludicrous statement. if you want a big chest, move all your benching to a 30 degree incline and use dumbbells. bam.
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;D
okay do your bench press
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;D
okay do your bench press
you want studies? here's the first one i found (though i'm not going to spend six hours finding all of them): http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=471725 . i had seen this study in its original form but cannot find it off-hand. you can look around all you want.
what i want you to notice is how the decline uses 93% of the chest, for example. not 93% of the lower chest, just 93% of the chest. the fact of the matter is that the "common wisdom" of "this hits lower, this hits inner, this hits outer" is complete and utter bunk. you can find other such studies, they're all about the same.
the point is that no exercises target vastly different areas of the chest, they're all within 5-8 percentage points in terms of how much of your chest is activated. if you want an idea for what that is, put your hand on your pec and realize that 5% of the surface area is about the pad of one of your fingers. even if that 93% was the lower 93, it'd be irrelevant.
am i saying all you need is one exercise? no, it'll get stale and the mental aspect is often bigger than the physical. but what i am saying is you're actually wasting both time and effort by trying to attack it from different angles.
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you do realize that that study says nothing about which area of the chest is stressed the most ?
sure 93% of the entire pectoralis is firing to some extent. but which portion is undertaking the biggest workload and being stimulated the most ?
:D
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you do realize that that study says nothing about which area of the chest is stressed the most ?
sure 93% of the entire pectoralis is firing to some extent. but which portion is undertaking the biggest workload and being stimulated the most ?
:D
according to you, without studies to back up your words, your opinion is worthless.
thus, until you provide a study to prove your claims, you're basically full of shit. just, you know, using the logic you've been proclaiming in every debate we have. :)
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according to you, without studies to back up your words, your opinion is worthless.
thus, until you provide a study to prove your claims, you're basically full of shit. just, you know, using the logic you've been proclaiming in every debate we have. :)
you havent provided any studies that show that inclines dont stress the upper chest and flat becnh doesnt stress the middle chest and declines dont stress the lower chest....
so i guess were both full of shit
but the difference is
i have every bodybuilding trainer and expert and almost every professional there ever was agreeing with me. and youve got slave and panda. ;D
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::)
find a way to draw out 93% of the chest that doesn't hit every part of it. even if you cut off the entire top 7% that's an incredibly negligible area. my point was that decline, flat, and incline hit pretty much everything. that's why people say dips are the best for the chest despite being, basically, an extremely declined press.
as for who agrees with who, again, you're just making shit up now. the "people" who agree with you are flex magazine articles and milos's wonky methods.
but you know what, fine. you keep on keepin' on with your "methods". you are somewhere between 19 and 25 years old and could not naturally get much above 200 pounds, regurgitating crap you read in a magazine that you undoubtedly did not buy with your own money, and you're going to use your drug-inflated physique as "proof" that you know what you're talking about even as you increase your dosages and still remain smaller and weaker than naturals who "don't know what they're talking about".
thanks for playing, candy pants. you're off my radar now.
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Zach,I agree with you on the straigt sets and increasing reps to gauge progress,BUT only if strength is a priority.
I guage my progress on how I look in the mirror.
I use as heavy a weight as possible for the targeted rep range of any set.
I increase weight each set and decrease reps.
There is a point where no further weight can be added to the bar and no more reps done with a certain weight,except for long periods of time,then you may be able to eke out another rep,maybe even two but this could take foreverotherwise we`d all be benching 1000 pounds in a few years of training.
Intensity is key for me...........getting the most possible work done in the shortest amount of time while going as heavy as possible with good form.
Candi,thanks for teaching this old man something new ...............I must have missed that issue of Flex magazine!! :)
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Magoo your study only says that 93 percent was involved. thats pretty much obvious regardless of your stance on this issue. the study doesn't at all address how the tension from each movement is dispersed in those regions activated.
I'm pretty stupid Magoo, but even i can see that.
try again if you have a study that actually proves what your saying then ill concede
Wes, i don't read flex, BRO; its called MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT :P
anyways nice try to avoid my point and avoid the fact that you don't really have any kin of real knowledge
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Dude,I`m not a scientist by any stretch but I`ve forgotten more than you will ever know about lifting weights.
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My high rep leg workout which i do when in my 'cuttin phase' aka now ...
Smith Squat 20X(45 on each side),15 (two 45s),12 (three 45s), 8 (four 45s) (drop two 45s for ss of 8 more), 6 (four 45s and a 25 ) (drop to two 45's to ss for 6 more)
Leg press 25,20,15,10 superset all sets with Sissy Squats(usually on 6-8)
Leg Extensions 30,25,20,15
Lying Leg Curls 20,15,10
Seated Leg Curl 20, 10
Lower Back Ext. (really streching out and contracting the hams here) 15,15,15
Calves 5 sets of whatever after 2 warm up sets. I ussually jack the wieght up to the most it can hold.
------------------------
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My high rep leg workout which i do when in my 'cuttin phase' aka now ...
Smith Squat 20X(45 on each side),15 (two 45s),12 (three 45s), 8 (four 45s) (drop two 45s for ss of 8 more), 6 (four 45s and a 25 ) (drop to two 45's to ss for 6 more)
Leg press 25,20,15,10 superset all sets with Sissy Squats(usually on 6-8)
Leg Extensions 30,25,20,15
Lying Leg Curls 20,15,10
Seated Leg Curl 20, 10
Lower Back Ext. (really streching out and contracting the hams here) 15,15,15
Calves 5 sets of whatever after 2 warm up sets. I ussually jack the wieght up to the most it can hold.
------------------------
looking at your legs there is no way those squats are deep.
as for the rest of your workout, epic pump addiction.
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looking at your legs there is no way those squats are deep.
as for the rest of your workout, epic pump addiction.
ass to the floor deep brah!!! ...
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ass to the floor deep brah!!! ...
floor must be real high.
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This arguement pops up often and it seems Candi is always the culprit...lol
Once again, for the 235,876,523th time...The ENTIRE chest works as a unit, you cannot isolate the Upper/lower portion of the chest. you cannot work your "middle" chest...lol
My proof, i studied Kinesiology in college. Time to hit the books and throw out the bodybuilding nonsense.
Good luck.
8)
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To The Mercurial Messiah of Manteca:
When can we expect your exercise philosophy and superior training methods book to come out? Has your publisher set a release date yet? I heard a rumor it will be around the 1st of September. Is it true that you are also going to kick off your book signing tour starting from your satellite cell in Manteca? And end the tour in Dec, 2012 in Mexico City, at one of your other satellite cell's?
I do not want to seem foreward but a lot of us here at GetBig can hardly wait for "The Word According to the Mercurial Messiah of Manteca". The best of luck.
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To The Mercurial Messiah of Manteca:
When can we expect your exercise philosophy and superior training methods book to come out? Has your publisher set a release date yet? I heard a rumor it will be around the 1st of September. Is it true that you are also going to kick off your book signing tour starting from your satellite cell in Manteca? And end the tour in Dec, 2012 in Mexico City, at one of your other satellite cell's?
I do not want to seem foreward but a lot of us here at GetBig can hardly wait for "The Word According to the Mercurial Messiah of Manteca". The best of luck.
you are familiar with manteca arent you ? whats with the obsession with the CNS i see occuring throughout your posts ? your from so-cal huh ? i can see that form your posts too...
why the hate ?
everything ive written is accurate
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This arguement pops up often and it seems Candi is always the culprit...lol
Once again, for the 235,876,523th time...The ENTIRE chest works as a unit, you cannot isolate the Upper/lower portion of the chest. you cannot work your "middle" chest...lol
My proof, i studied Kinesiology in college. Time to hit the books and throw out the bodybuilding nonsense.
Good luck.
8)
there is a monstrous difference between isolating a band/portion of fibers and putting the majority of the stress on a certain area of fibers..
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you are familiar with manteca arent you ? whats with the obsession with the CNS i see occuring throughout your posts ? your from so-cal huh ? i can see that form your posts too...
why the hate ?
everything ive written is accurate
If you wear the CNS down too much, you will never recover and not make any progress...that's the "cliff notes" version.
Read up about physical stress and how it effects the CNS.
We are all here to learn bro, just try to keep an open mind.
8)
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there is a monstrous difference between isolating a band/portion of fibers and putting the majority of the stress on a certain area of fibers..
You are correct.
One is impossible.
The other is possible.
Study my friend, hit the books and come debate me. :)
I don't have the time to explain years of college study to you, but you are welcome to address any and all of my comments with documented studies.
8)
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You are correct.
One is impossible.
The other is possible.
Study my friend, hit the books and come debate me. :)
I don't have the time to explain years of college study to you, but you are welcome to address any and all of my comments with documented studies.
8)
Overload bringing the brutality ;D
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well most of the growth from a workout happens in the first 48 hours after a workout. and actually, protein synthesis is at its higest immidietly post workout. so if you really have to wait for the CNS to recover then it seems that the cns recovers pretty much immideietly.
and on the issue of bringing up a protion of a muscle..like upper chest. well you just agreed with me, and pretty much admitted that the only reason you contraqdicted me was either for EGO, or because you want to fit in with the ignorant training board regulars.
overload i dont know why you feel compelled to find reasons to come here and argue with me.. they are over semantics and mute points. ive always been pretty coool with you..
anyways; i would bring up a bunch of charles glass and other guys who would support me in this...and those guys are pretty much the be-all-end-all on the issue...but if i did so no one would respond to the point they would just say "are you comparing yourself to charles glass?" like thats an argument at all..
::)
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well most of the growth from a workout happens in the first 48 hours after a workout. and actually, protein synthesis is at its higest immidietly post workout. so if you really have to wait for the CNS to recover then it seems that the cns recovers pretty much immideietly.
and on the issue of bringing up a protion of a muscle..like upper chest. well you just agreed with me, and pretty much admitted that the only reason you contraqdicted me was either for EGO, or because you want to fit in with the ignorant training board regulars.
overload i dont know why you feel compelled to find reasons to come here and argue with me.. they are over semantics and mute points. ive always been pretty coool with you..
anyways; i would bring up a bunch of charles glass and other guys who would support me in this...and those guys are pretty much the be-all-end-all on the issue...but if i did so no one would respond to the point they would just say "are you comparing yourself to charles glass?" like thats an argument at all..
::)
I don't even know where to start...lol
I am stating FACTS based on SCIENCE. I lost my EGO(ID) many years ago, i'm only trying to educate people.
Let me know when you take some Anatomy or Kinesiology.
Take care young grasshoppa.
8)
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I`d be willing to wager that 99 % of the people on the board have no knowledge of sattelite cells and how they work..........epic parrotting from the mags or the internet!!!!!!!!!!
Train,Eat,Rest,Repeat...........K*I*S*S*>KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!!
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My high rep leg workout which i do when in my 'cuttin phase' aka now ...
Smith Squat 20X(45 on each side),15 (two 45s),12 (three 45s), 8 (four 45s) (drop two 45s for ss of 8 more), 6 (four 45s and a 25 ) (drop to two 45's to ss for 6 more)
Leg press 25,20,15,10 superset all sets with Sissy Squats(usually on 6-8)
Leg Extensions 30,25,20,15
Lying Leg Curls 20,15,10
Seated Leg Curl 20, 10
Lower Back Ext. (really streching out and contracting the hams here) 15,15,15
Calves 5 sets of whatever after 2 warm up sets. I ussually jack the wieght up to the most it can hold.
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Jae,You`re saying that you squat 455 for 8 and it`s in a drop-set??
::)
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I`d be willing to wager that 99 % of the people on the board have no knowledge of sattelite cells and how they work..........epic parrotting from the mags or the internet!!!!!!!!!!
Train,Eat,Rest,Repeat...........K*I*S*S*>KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!!
wes whats with your obsession with blsting anything that goes into detail ?
no one here is saying... lift like a pussy eat like a girl and stay up all night; but if you know the science youll be huge ! thats not it at all. obviously we all kick our own ass in the gym and we all eat whatever it is we need to eat to reach our current goals, and we all make sure to rest enough...
so whats wrong with trying to learn the science so you can get more out of all your efforts?
your over simplistic approach is great for keeping on track but theres no reason to be hateful of getting more intricate as long as you keep up the intensity.....
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Attention MMM... A very short cliff note follows:
The CNS has the affect of governing the majority of muscle nerve functions (including those satellite cell message units). In referring to maintenance, recovery/repair/advancement and general body health. The CNS will need (as the mean average) 72 hours (some disagreement on that) to return to a somewhat normal state after a hard workout. That normal state will allow the muscle fibers/cells to have the opportunity/time to heal and grow a little larger than before that workout (in theory anyway). And be ready to adapt to the next demanding workout. To say the the CNS is one of the most important factors in steady gains, including slow or no gains, would be an understatement.
Some say a complete return to a normal state for the body may require 2 to 3 weeks, as some sports medicine people suggest, though that may be to the extreme. To function at near 100% the CNS has to return to at least that, or near that. Mike Mentzer (Art Jones ,though they may differ slightly) seemed to had been of this opinion of having workouts few and far between in his training protocol. After his Black Flag training day, you would need all the extra rest you could get before the next battle with the weights.
There is another important element that also uses the letters CNS, that may need quick attention. It is "Candidizzle Needs Study". Now he seems like a nice enough chap, though tending to be a mite arrogant and self absorbed. I am sure as he matures in life and learns to respect and listen to the experiences of others, in the lifting game or anything else, he can improve himself greatly. Both with knowledge and a physically superior body. Knowledge is a liftime pursuit but you can get impressive muscle mass in not that many years, if you know what you are doing. Not talking about drugs here. Good Luck.
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Once again, for the 235,876,523th time...The ENTIRE chest works as a unit, you cannot isolate the Upper/lower portion of the chest. you cannot work your "middle" chest...lol
My proof, i studied Kinesiology in college. Time to hit the books and throw out the bodybuilding nonsense.
We've gone through this before-those who get bogged down in anatomy and having to mention degrees sometimes miss the point. Those things can actually distract from reality, not help. Whether a muscle is in fact all one area or dispirate poritions is beside the actual point, which is that different exercises do in fact hit different areas. I think those who focus too much on the literal structure of the bod sometimes miss this.
Getting in to pissing contests based on education reminds me of designing & then flying a jetliner based soley on CAD, it's absurd. Plenty of experienced guys including moi would strongly suggest that it takes more than texbooks to render an informed opinion.
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Attention MMM... A very short cliff note follows:
The CNS has the affect of governing the majority of muscle nerve functions (including those satellite cell message units). In referring to maintenance, recovery/repair/advancement and general body health. The CNS will need (as the mean average) 72 hours (some disagreement on that) to return to a somewhat normal state after a hard workout. That normal state will allow the muscle fibers/cells to have the opportunity/time to heal and grow a little larger than before that workout (in theory anyway). And be ready to adapt to the next demanding workout. To say the the CNS is one of the most important factors in steady gains, including slow or no gains, would be an understatement.
Some say a complete return to a normal state for the body may require 2 to 3 weeks, as some sports medicine people suggest, though that may be to the extreme. To function at near 100% the CNS has to return to at least that, or near that. Mike Mentzer (Art Jones ,though they may differ slightly) seemed to had been of this opinion of having workouts few and far between in his training protocol. After his Black Flag training day, you would need all the extra rest you could get before the next battle with the weights.
There is another important element that also uses the letters CNS, that may need quick attention. It is "Candidizzle Needs Study". Now he seems like a nice enough chap, though tending to be a mite arrogant and self absorbed. I am sure as he matures in life and learns to respect and listen to the experiences of others, in the lifting game or anything else, he can improve himself greatly. Both with knowledge and a physically superior body. Knowledge is a liftime pursuit but you can get impressive muscle mass in not that many years, if you know what you are doing. Not talking about drugs here. Good Luck.
you call me a dophead head and drug addict , what the fuck do you think mike mentzer was?
when 90% of all ifbb professionals, 90% aof all well respected bodybuilding trainers, and 90% of all the research shows one thing.... but one meth addict steroid using h.i.t. proponent says another... i guess its only rational to follow suit and go with the crazy guys opinion on things.
me personally i am going to listen to lee naey ronnie coleman jay cutler makus ruhl justin harris victor martinez..ect ect... ill listen to those guys and follow what has always worked for me
you know i tried your way once, the h.i.t. CNS based training... yeah, i lost an inch off my arms in about one months time.. i will say that my chest improved a tiny but only because for e first time i was using a spotter so i could etch out those last reps and realy reach failure...
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Candi,not hating bro,and not a thing wrong with learning new things but a lot of that stuff doesn`t make much of a difference in the long run if you keep it basic and a lot of it is merely minutia.
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Candi,not hating bro,and not a thing wrong with learning new things but a lot of that stuff doesn`t make much of a difference in the long run if you keep it basic and a lot of it is merely minutia.
Very true. I can respect someone wanting to know every last detail about the science of things, but really, it's WAY too easy to get bogged down in the little bullshit that's really not necessary. I doubt Yates or Coleman ever worried about satellite cells or the such.
I've found myself in the past to fall into the same trap, but honestly, it's just not something to worry about. I love to research things and find out details, but over the years, I've just relegated the majority of that information as "cool" stuff to know and not anything I worry about in the gym.
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Some heavy duty gym's I have been at have a sign or banner with K.I.S.S. written on it. It's great advice because it's true. Also suggested by Wes in this thread. When in doubt and trainings seems to get bogged down, go back to the basics. Lifting is pretty simple stuff. Forget about what MR So and So of 2003 does. Take a few compound exercises and lift like your mean it, with serious intent. Get that extra rest and stoke up on the good quality food. Now watch yourself grow pure muscle. Good Luck.
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you call me a dophead head and drug addict , what the fuck do you think mike mentzer was?
when 90% of all ifbb professionals, 90% aof all well respected bodybuilding trainers, and 90% of all the research shows one thing.... but one meth addict steroid using h.i.t. proponent says another... i guess its only rational to follow suit and go with the crazy guys opinion on things.
me personally i am going to listen to lee naey ronnie coleman jay cutler makus ruhl justin harris victor martinez..ect ect... ill listen to those guys and follow what has always worked for me
you know i tried your way once, the h.i.t. CNS based training... yeah, i lost an inch off my arms in about one months time.. i will say that my chest improved a tiny but only because for e first time i was using a spotter so i could etch out those last reps and realy reach failure...
100 % of the IFBB BBers are drugged out of their minds and would grow doing anything. If you look at those guys after they stop training and juicing they retain little if any muscle. Compare their lifting to that of a strong man or athlete and you will see who grows REAL muscle. Most guys, myself included, follow the pros and don't do much.
As far as HIT, I think most people don't eat and rest enough to fully benefit from it.
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I don't even know where to start...lol
I am stating FACTS based on SCIENCE. I lost my EGO(ID) many years ago, i'm only trying to educate people.
Let me know when you take some Anatomy or Kinesiology.
Take care young grasshoppa.
8)
tip from me to you:
nevermind that you are both bigger and FAR stronger with more experience than candi. he will argue that he knows more until he is blue in the face and, coincidentally, will resume doing what he's doing and getting nothing from it. at some point pumpster will back him up and when you argue against him, expect a shitload of ad hominem personal attacks and for your posts to get deleted.
the training board is starting to get hard to get through simply because of a pair of guys with huge egos that think they know everything despite demonstrating nothing.
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tip from me to you:
nevermind that you are both bigger and FAR stronger with more experience than candi. he will argue that he knows more until he is blue in the face and, coincidentally, will resume doing what he's doing and getting nothing from it. at some point pumpster will back him up and when you argue against him, expect a shitload of ad hominem personal attacks and for your posts to get deleted.
the training board is starting to get hard to get through simply because of a pair of guys with huge egos that think they know everything despite demonstrating nothing.
That's what the Positive Board is for! :D
I gave up trying to give candidildo any type of "training" advice or my opinion on what works/what doesn't. He read it in MD and Charles Glass said so, so it's true for everyone.
And pumpster is blinded by his hatred for anyone that disagrees with him, he goes into delete mode when his boytoy candidildo gets blasted.
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What amazes me is the knuckle heads that come on here, think this forum is THEIR personal domain and only their information matters. We are all men and if you can't handle differing opinions then tough, but if you cause unnecessary trouble then it becomes a problem. If someone wants to train a certain way, let them. If guys disagree, fine, but don't get pissy, which is what I see a few people doing. Enjoy the training advice from guys pushing big weight and getting results, and learn a thing or two. Meltdown complete.
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Enjoy the training advice from guys pushing big weight and getting results, and learn a thing or two.
This is where it gets tricky, because candi says big, strong, experienced guys are wrong and MD and Charles Glass are right. Anyone saying otherwise is just a plain ol idiot. ::)
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This is where it gets tricky, because candi says big, strong, experienced guys are wrong and MD and Charles Glass are right. Anyone saying otherwise is just a plain ol idiot. ::)
no no no... big jacked bodybuilders wh have been lifting their entire lives and have been successful at building quality physiques are the people i listen to.
oh and dont give me no bullshit about them being filled with drugs because SO AM I ;D
i agree absolutely100% that the best way for a natural lifeter, regardless of bodybuilding or powerlifting oriented, should ALWAYS lift bigger and heavier and ALWAYS do basic compound heavy intense movements.
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oh and dont give me no bullshit about them being filled with drugs because SO AM I ;D
So how is that working out for you?
What strength gains have you made in the basic lifts, bench, dead, rows, squats, overhead presses?
How has your body changed size wise? Are you bigger, leaner?
I'm asking because you are constantly saying how you are "on", yet you refuse to show progress pics, and your "log" was a short lived memory.
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So how is that working out for you?
What strength gains have you made in the basic lifts, bench, dead, rows, squats, overhead presses?
How has your body changed size wise? Are you bigger, leaner?
I'm asking because you are constantly saying how you are "on", yet you refuse to show progress pics, and your "log" was a short lived memory.
im a lot stronger but i don give a shit about that
yeah sure my body has changed alot.. i started fat and 190 lbs... i got up to a fat 235 lbs... been dieting for two and a half weeks and now my body fat % if at 13 % (legit 13 % ) and i am only down to 230.. once i get to about 8 % then ill increase my calories a little , add in dbol, and drop all the cardio.. hopefully get up to 250 10%....then i want to take the winter off and just train naturally till maybe next april? and then ffrom there on out ill probably be on at least a cruising dose for as long as i am still bodybuilding.. which will be untill i am done competing probably about 45 ?
but who really knows? all of this is speculation and what i hope ideally happens... hell i am doing all i can and just hoping for the bets outcome knowing im giving it 110% every minute every hour every day..
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im a lot stronger but i don give a shit about that
yeah sure my body has changed alot.. i started fat and 190 lbs... i got up to a fat 235 lbs... been dieting for two and a half weeks and now my body fat % if at 13 % (legit 13 % ) and i am only down to 230.. once i get to about 8 % then ill increase my calories a little , add in dbol, and drop all the cardio.. hopefully get up to 250 10%....then i want to take the winter off and just train naturally till maybe next april? and then ffrom there on out ill probably be on at least a cruising dose for as long as i am still bodybuilding.. which will be untill i am done competing probably about 45 ?
but who really knows? all of this is speculation and what i hope ideally happens... hell i am doing all i can and just hoping for the bets outcome knowing im giving it 110% every minute every hour every day..
So getting to a specific bodyweight is your goal? 250?
How much of that weight/strength do you think you'll lose over the winter?
You didn't answer my ? about your lifts, stronger yes, but how much?
Give me a specific example.......say, deads...how much have your poundages gone up?
What are some specific measurements, before/now.......let's say arms, it's an easy one, how big are they now vs before?
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So getting to a specific bodyweight is your goal? 250?
How much of that weight/strength do you think you'll lose over the winter?
You didn't answer my ? about your lifts, stronger yes, but how much?
Give me a specific example.......say, deads...how much have your poundages gone up?
What are some specific measurements, before/now.......let's say arms, it's an easy one, how big are they now vs before?
okay well no 1250 lbs bodyweight isn the goal itself, but i think the body that is my goal will probably weigh 250...i have very large bones and joints so in order for me to look 230 i need to weigh 250... but its only really about what i look like in the mirror not what i weigh
well i wouldnt be suprised if i lose everythin over the winter. im not TOO worried about it. of course, i would hate to lose any muscle. BUT, i realize that steroids are pretty much just 'renting" the muscles... i just want to stay lean and keep as much as possible over the break.. ill still train 110% and be spot on with my diet...but everything else is out of my hands..
okay well before i started i benched probably 185 for working sets of 12. now i can easily incline 245 for sets of 10, and im on low carbs low cals. so thats a pretty big strength increase. umm.. most every machine in the gym i have to use the full stack now, and a few i have to pin into the stack an extra quarter. like on seated rows and dips.. got to pin a 25 lb plate into those stacks... cg bench press is the exact same as bench press... was probably at 185 now i can work with 245... umm..... my legs have always been damn strong and i am nto sure they are really any stronger only because i rarely ever put them to the test. they are ahead of the rest of my body and even at 14-15% i see the cutz... i guess i am gifted with decent quads...
dude i got no idea about the measurements... i was going to take some for my log but i got too scared ;D if i had to guess ive added a solid inch and a half to my arms.. the biggest improvement in my whole physique is definitely in my shoulders and back... my shoulders finally start to llook somewhat round and my back is pretty thick, it always had a little width but now its got thickness equal to width
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and now my body fat % if at 13 % (legit 13 % ) and i am only down to 230..
Why don't you post a pic then ???
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Why don't you post a pic then ???
i still look like shit ... i think its because i have large joints...idk..or maybe thick skin.. probably a combo of both... ive never said i look great and i dont.
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well i wouldnt be suprised if i lose everythin over the winter. im not TOO worried about it. of course, i would hate to lose any muscle. BUT, i realize that steroids are pretty much just 'renting" the muscles... i just want to stay lean and keep as much as possible over the break.. ill still train 110% and be spot on with my diet...but everything else is out of my hands..
Of course your strength has gone through the roof, but what I wonder is, if you focused on getting stronger on major lifts.......would you hold more mass/strength when you came off? You know, instead of sets of 10, doing sets of 3-5, working towards building strength first, then using that strength to work towards size.
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i still look like shit ... i think its because i have large joints...idk..or maybe thick skin.. probably a combo of both... ive never said i look great and i dont.
It's not about looks, it's about comparing where you are now to the pictures we have seen of you before.
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Of course your strength has gone through the roof, but what I wonder is, if you focused on getting stronger on major lifts.......would you hold more mass/strength when you came off? You know, instead of sets of 10, doing sets of 3-5, working towards building strength first, then using that strength to work towards size.
well i do plan on changiong my diet and training when i come off. much more power oriented and more h.i.t style training. and probably do the anabolic diet...because i tried that last fall and it worked pretty good for the short amount of time i did it... just doing anythign and everything i can to hold onto muscle and keep my natty test as high as possible... ill probably run some kind of ai for the majority of the time too
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i still look like shit ... i think its because i have large joints...idk..or maybe thick skin.. probably a combo of both... ive never said i look great and i dont.
If you're 230 @ 13%, I seriously doubt you look like shit.
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well i do plan on changiong my diet and training when i come off. much more power oriented and more h.i.t style training. and probably do the anabolic diet...because i tried that last fall and it worked pretty good for the short amount of time i did it... just doing anythign and everything i can to hold onto muscle and keep my natty test as high as possible... ill probably run some kind of ai for the majority of the time too
I'm telling you as a guy who has a hard time naturally putting on and keeping muscle, lift infrequently and heavy when you're off because naturally you need more rest and need to lift heavier.
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panda , ill be real, i look good compared to everybody else in the gym, but compared to what i want to look like i cant stand my body its fucking disgusting and i cant work hard enough or progress fast enough to change this fucking pile
cap ! yeah dude i am thinking i will do heavy super intense split like this mon upper, wed lower, fri upper, mon lower, wed upper, ect ect.. plus a high fat diet lots of clean calories and lots of rest
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panda , ill be real, i look good compared to everybody else in the gym, but compared to what i want to look like i cant stand my body its fucking disgusting and i cant work hard enough or progress fast enough to change this fucking pile
Like I said, if you legit weigh 230 @ 13% and you're not 7 foot tall, you can't look that bad.
I'm curious, what are you hoping to get out of this? Are you gonna compete? Are you just a recreational lifter who just wants to get bigger?
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panda , ill be real, i look good compared to everybody else in the gym, but compared to what i want to look like i cant stand my body its fucking disgusting and i cant work hard enough or progress fast enough to change this fucking pile
cap ! yeah dude i am thinking i will do heavy super intense split like this mon upper, wed lower, fri upper, mon lower, wed upper, ect ect.. plus a high fat diet lots of clean calories and lots of rest
Think of it this way dude, Coleman and Jay started with heavy power lifts and look what they did. They were both football players and Coleman was a powerlifter at first. You will pack on muscle that will stay and later you do workouts to "refine" that muscle if you want. Think of yourself as building a statue. It's easier to work with a big block of marble rather than piecing together a bunch of shards little by little.
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Like I said, if you legit weigh 230 @ 13% and you're not 7 foot tall, you can't look that bad.
I'm curious, what are you hoping to get out of this? Are you gonna compete? Are you just a recreational lifter who just wants to get bigger?
i think i have voiced this before... but i will repeat..
okay
i dont care about "being big", lets get that out of the way first. i dont give two shits about being intimidating, looking powerful, being manly, or being strong.
simply
i want to create ...err..sounds very cliche..but a piece of art with my body.. being massive is only a bi product of a body that looks good and shapely and aethtic when hitting a twisting rear double bicep, or doing a one hand on the hip, one hand doing a most muscle clench....
what i want to get out of doing this is simply that everyday when i am in front of the mirror posing and hitting shots is that i can look at pride at a physique that i can honestly asses as being aesthetic and pleasing to MINE OWN EYE... something that i can walk around in feeling confident and loving life..
ALSO to a lesser extent, it has somethign t do with me being somewhat of a romantic... a pipedream where there is some kind of perfection out there that one day i will meet... and i think that that female perfection deserves male perfection and i want to be that perfection.. and part of perfectios not only physical but as well as mental and in order to have that i know within myself i need to have that confidence
aaaaaahhhhhhh
i ammaking a huge fool of myself by telling you this.. but i dont mind really. its nice to be honest
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tip from me to you:
nevermind that you are both bigger and FAR stronger with more experience than candi. he will argue that he knows more until he is blue in the face and, coincidentally, will resume doing what he's doing and getting nothing from it. at some point pumpster will back him up and when you argue against him, expect a shitload of ad hominem personal attacks and for your posts to get deleted.
the training board is starting to get hard to get through simply because of a pair of guys with huge egos that think they know everything despite demonstrating nothing.
Yeah, i've already been through the hate filled PM's and deleted posts from Pumpster about a year ago. That is why i never post in here.
I've learned it is quite pointless to argue facts over the internet.
I mean, Candi and Pump have more knowledge of muscles in action than the thousands of intelligent Scientists that have laid the foundation for Anatomy and Kinesiology over the last thousand years...i keep forgetting that!
Now, i'm going to throw my Engineering degree and my MBA in the trash, because obviously they mean nothing. Next time i calculate the Chloramine conversion for a water plant, i'll just "follow my gut" and forget all the Science i learned in school...lol
Take care.
8)
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This arguement pops up often and it seems Candi is always the culprit...lol
Once again, for the 235,876,523th time...The ENTIRE chest works as a unit, you cannot isolate the Upper/lower portion of the chest. you cannot work your "middle" chest...lol
My proof, i studied Kinesiology in college. Time to hit the books and throw out the bodybuilding nonsense.
Good luck.
8)
QFTWT!
the only reason why there are inclines, declines, and flat benches is to give us some variety..that's really it. Dumbbells add a little more stimulation but if you're lacking stimulation in the pressing movemetns..add more weight.
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QFTWT!
the only reason why there are inclines, declines, and flat benches is to give us some variety..that's really it. Dumbbells add a little more stimulation but if you're lacking stimulation in the pressing movemetns..add more weight.
Bingo!
I'm not telling people to not do inclines or anything else, i'm just stating that your entire chest is worked the same, incline, decline, or flat. Changing the angle only changes stress points, it doesn't change fiber recruitment or stimulation enough to be a concern.
8)
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Small world Overload. Just a little over a year/year and a half ago I got the royal treatment from his Holiness, The Mod. Personal messages with ramblings that seem to come from a crazy man or a heavy drinker. Deleted posts and some that were complety rearranged so that they presented an opposite meaning. Even had the honor of being blocked from posting for 2 week. I amoung many others.
A muscle area always acts as a unit. Any pressing off of and away from the chest requires the total effort of the chest/pec muscles, acting as that unit. Even dips, which are pressed/pushed down and along side the body, are a wonderfull chest movement.
Changing the angle of the press/push does not reduce the stress on the whole chest area, just the degree of the stress. Just saying that the degree of measured stress can change, as the angle of the exercise can. There is never any muscle isolation of any muscle group.
Inclines may demand more work/stress on the upper portion, so receive that much more tension than the lower portion of the chest area would. In that respect, men who favor that impressive delt/pec tie-in would want to pay more attention in incline presses (prefered with DB's). Men who want a better lower pec line might pay attention to Dips.
And some men can do flat benches and build massive chest, upper and lower. Muscle inserts, joint structure and bone length/structure will have a lot to do with getting results from any pressing style. If people would experiment with different grips, elbow placements and where the bar is lowered upon the chest area the common BP might be the only great chest exercise they would ever need. Good Luck
Side Bar: No big deal but wonder if candidizzle is related to Milo Candini?
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nah man i didnt even know who that was i just googled it.. some baseball dude from 1917..lol.... candidizzle is just a ghetto-ized version of candidate.. my name is taylor
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Don't think too much about it Candid... just do it.
Your looks are a goodie, but not the main thing.