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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Sports Discussion Boards => Topic started by: pumpster on June 18, 2008, 06:14:28 PM
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Barking at the officials and his teammates --- when he wasn't missing 78 of the 131 shots he attempted against the Celtics in the NBA Finals --- Kobe Bryant gave critics plenty of ammunition to question his leadership abilities.Everything is magnified in the playoffs, but what order of enlargement would be necessary to find the Los Angeles Lakers' hearts?
To spot an NBA Finals performance worthy of his hype by Kobe Bryant, the league's alleged Most Valuable Player?
Watching Bryant, the alleged MVP, gripe at, berate and complain about his unworthy teammates recalled Michael Jordan's stormier moments, only without the body of work to support the poor behavior. The next time somebody makes the case of Kobe Bryant, team guy, I offer Game 2 of The Finals as the rebuttal.
You have seen this divisive player before, in the off-season, when Bryant tried to force his own trade, then tried to play general manager and trade Andrew Bynum. But apologists insisted he had changed. The leopard and his spots come to mind.
If LeBron James had been on the floor when the Cavaliers lost a 24-point lead at home in the NBA Finals, as Bryant was in Game 4, the criticism would never end. Swarmed by defenders, James got ripped from coast-to-coast for making the correct play and passing to a wide-open teammate for a game-winning 3-pointer that missed against Detroit in the 2007 playoffs.
Regardless of the MVP vote totals, LeBron James' true value can be measured by a simple question: What GM wouldn't trade his best player for a chance at James?Critics point to the "King of Ak" license plate, the "Chosen 1" tattoo on his back, and the third-person references. They say he's full of himself. It is true, to a point, but James has to believe in his own legend. Ego, when it does not become megalomania, helps talent grow.
His precocity records -- youngest to all those point totals, youngest to infinity and beyond -- make him a player who can't be just good or even great. He has to be phenomenal.
He is the age-group Wilt Chamberlain. By setting all the individual records, Wilt was vulnerable to criticism when he could not lead others to the top.
Except on rare occasions, however, Wilt did not play with as good a supporting cast as the Celtics or Knicks. The players around James also are not that good.
Even when James was bad, in the first game against Boston, he had nine assists. He always helps his team win in ways beyond scoring. His 45-point seventh game at Boston was one of his greatest playoff performances.
Yet in the MVP voting James got one first-place vote. It was a joke.
Kevin Garnett set a great defensive tone in Boston, but he finished ahead of James without a go-to move inside or a willingness to force contact around the basket and get to the line. Paul Pierce was Boston's playoff MVP.
Bryant thrived, but mostly after Memphis made the worst trade (Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown) since Ted Stepien's days here.
Chris Paul had a great year. It's hard to fault him.
But how do you define the MVP? The best player on the best team? The most talented player, period? The best "leader," a vague category that allowed Garnett voters to swoon over his screaming and jersey-popping?
How about the one guy any general manager would trade for, the one around whom you can build a contender most quickly, the one who kept an injury-ravaged team from imploding?
In age, size, talent, and willingness to be coached, it's LeBron.
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Kobe didn't dominate the game like he should have. In game 6 he was throwing up erratic jumpers and not even going to the basket. I don't think for a second that Lebron or even MJ would have let their team slide into nothingness the way Kobe did. Kobe matches Jordan in terms of skill, but in terms of sheer will he falls short just like his jump shots did throughout most of game 6 ;D
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Kobe averaged 26 points a game, dont know what his % was but he cant do it alone. Odom and Gasol never stepped up. put Lebron on the lakes instead of Kobe and they would not have beat San Antonio. yes 24 isnt 23 never will, but you cant blame 24 when he averages 26 against the D of the Celts.
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Kobe averaged 26 points a game, dont know what his % was but he cant do it alone. Odom and Gasol never stepped up. put Lebron on the lakes instead of Kobe and they would not have beat San Antonio. yes 24 isnt 23 never will, but you cant blame 24 when he averages 26 against the D of the Celts.
Completely wrong to think entirely in terms of numbers, besides which 26 a game's insufficient on that team with that player in the finals.
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Completely wrong to think entirely in terms of numbers, besides which 26 a game's insufficient on that team with that player in the finals.
completely wrong to consider the lakers performance a flop due to Kobe, he is the reason they won 2 games.
its easy to blame Kobe after the fact, anyone could do that, i prefer to give credit to the Celts D which won them the series. you expect Kobe by himself to beat the best D in the league in 4 out of 7 games?
and observation in terms of numbers is how everything is graded..assists, turnovers, rebounds, touches, interceptions, attempts, completions, yards per carry etc.
analysis of the winning teams will tell you that with the far majority of the winners comes a higher percentage of numbers that equal productivity.
being more successful in terms of numbers than your opponent will give you the best chance to win.
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completely wrong to consider the lakers performance a flop due to Kobe, he is the reason they won 2 games.
its easy to blame Kobe after the fact, anyone could do that, i prefer to give credit to the Celts D which won them the series. you expect Kobe by himself to beat the best D in the league in 4 out of 7 games?
and observation in terms of numbers is how everything is graded..assists, turnovers, rebounds, touches, interceptions, attempts, completions, yards per carry etc.
analysis of the winning teams will tell you that with the far majority of the winners comes a higher percentage of numbers that equal productivity.
being more successful in terms of numbers than your opponent will give you the best chance to win.
I agree, and blaming this all on Kobe is a cop out. I think the lakers where highly overrated going into this series, and the Celtics where a lot better than anyone thought. Don't know how you can win 66 games, and be underrated, but they where.
I think the Spurs tried to do what the Celtics did, but their age and injuries prevented them from doing it effectively. The Celtics d was formulated to focus on Kobe, and make his supporting cast beat them. the cast showed flashes, but couldn't match up with the Celtics.
Odem sure put that wagging tongue away quick, eh?
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yes, after the fact i realize that the lakes were a bit overrated, i dont know how they beat the spurs. i would still take the spurs over the lakes today. if the celts played the spurs in the finals it would have been alot more competitive, but in the end result would be the same i think.celts have too many weapons and have a great D. i never saw KG as a defensive presence until the finals. pierce either for that matter it would be nice to see him get another ring being that he is soo underrated even with the finals win i still dont think he will get the credit he deserves. i guess the celts have a good young point with rondo now.
i thought it would be a nice gesture for paul to bring Antwone Walker out onto the court after the game 6 win to celebrate, he was there for all those bad years after all.
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you expect Kobe by himself to beat the best D in the league in 4 out of 7 games?
i believe that if you gave Michael Jordan 7 tries, he'd bring it 4 times and win the ring.
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i believe that if you gave Michael Jordan 7 tries, he'd bring it 4 times and win the ring.
Thats why 23 is greater than 24
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i dont know how they beat the spurs. i would still take the spurs over the lakes today.
You . . . are . . . quite insane.
PS "Finals Flop" a quite "retarded" premise. Ask the Nets who lost in 4 games, not 6, what a "flop" is (a 15-1 historic playoff run, by the way). While you're at it, ask ther 76'ers, who won the first barely in overtime, then lost four straight what a "flop" is. The Celts deserve praise, but the east coasters are being just a tad "over the top." Bynum's back, the biggest front court in the history of the NBA, mail in the trophy now (funny, a title built upon a major injury on starter of the opposing team, quite impressive . . .) Bring it on bitches.
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Thats why 23 is greater than 24
Stupid is as stupid does, ahhh Forrest?
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You . . . are . . . quite insane.
PS "Finals Flop" a quite "retarded" premise. Ask the Nets who lost in 4 games, not 6, what a "flop" is (a 15-1 historic playoff run, by the way). While you're at it, ask ther 76'ers, who won the first barely in overtime, then lost four straight what a "flop" is. The Celts deserve praise, but the east coasters are being just a tad "over the top." Bynum's back, the biggest front court in the history of the NBA, mail in the trophy now (funny, a title built upon a major injury on starter of the opposing team, quite impressive . . .) Bring it on bitches.
True, but the celts had injuries to three key starters.
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Stupid is as stupid does, ahhh Forrest?
Lets see you back up your opinion opposed to using simple rhetoric.
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Kobe, tell me how my ass tastes.
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You . . . are . . . quite insane.
PS "Finals Flop" a quite "retarded" premise. Ask the Nets who lost in 4 games, not 6, what a "flop" is (a 15-1 historic playoff run, by the way). While you're at it, ask ther 76'ers, who won the first barely in overtime, then lost four straight what a "flop" is. The Celts deserve praise, but the east coasters are being just a tad "over the top." Bynum's back, the biggest front court in the history of the NBA, mail in the trophy now (funny, a title built upon a major injury on starter of the opposing team, quite impressive . . .) Bring it on bitches.
or ask the Lakes who were favored to win the series over the Celts, but got beat in game six by the largest margin ever.
so go ahead and imagine you'd have won w/ Bynum, imagine in your head that the lakes didnt quit and get blown out by 40 in game six and that they went on to win game 7, imagine the lakes pulling up the banner, imagine yourself at the parade for the lakes, imagine Kobe on the Tonight Show walking out with the trophy...the rest of us will deal with reality and the fact that the Celts are the champs.
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or ask the Lakes who were favored to win the series over the Celts, but got beat in game six by the largest margin ever.
so go ahead and imagine you'd have won w/ Bynum, imagine in your head that the lakes didnt quit and get blown out by 40 in game six and that they went on to win game 7, imagine the lakes pulling up the banner, imagine yourself at the parade for the lakes, imagine Kobe on the Tonight Show walking out with the trophy...the rest of us will deal with reality and the fact that the Celts are the champs.
i like this Athiest guy..
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or ask the Lakes who were favored to win the series over the Celts, but got beat in game six by the largest margin ever.
so go ahead and imagine you'd have won w/ Bynum, imagine in your head that the lakes didnt quit and get blown out by 40 in game six and that they went on to win game 7, imagine the lakes pulling up the banner, imagine yourself at the parade for the lakes, imagine Kobe on the Tonight Show walking out with the trophy...the rest of us will deal with reality and the fact that the Celts are the champs.
I don't have a problem with saying the Celts are champs. Here" "The Celts are the Champs!!!"
The team that wins a series is the better team. Period. That is why I said you were insane for your post that the Spurs were better than the Lakers. Live by your own rules.
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True, but the celts had injuries to three key starters.
The Celts deserve praise, no doubt. I'm just saying a series win in 6 games, regardless of the score of the last game, in itself is not a historical achievement. Again, look at the Lakers team that went 15-1 in the playoffs and finished with a 4 game sweep. I don't mind the celt fans basking in the glory, but the Laker haters are overblowing it.
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The Celts deserve praise, no doubt. I'm just saying a series win in 6 games, regardless of the score of the last game, in itself is not a historical achievement. Again, look at the Lakers team that went 15-1 in the playoffs and finished with a 4 game sweep. I don't mind the celt fans basking in the glory, but the Laker haters are overblowing it.
That was the Shaq Era, i love them days
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That is why I said you were insane for your post that the Spurs were better than the Lakers. Live by your own rules.
i dont know how they beat the spurs. i would still take the spurs over the lakes today. i
really how is that so insane? who has won more championships in the past six years? lakes or the spurs?
and the fact that i would take the spurs over the lakes again is clearly my opinion and im sure i wouldnt be the only one..the difference is youre making excuses as to why the lakes lost.
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I don't mind the celt fans basking in the glory, but the Laker haters are overblowing it.
what do expect it was the LAKERS VS. the CELTICS!! for crying out loud, it may be news to you but **whisper voice** they have a bit of history
*some cliffs notes for you..back in the 80's they had a huge rivalry which saved the NBA. A player by the name of Magic(no thats not his real name) Johnson led the Lakers, and their team was given the nickname "Showtime" the Celtics were led by a great player by the name of Larry Bird, who was a tenacious player himself. the two teams styles contrasted so vastly but yet both were very successful and their rivalry grew to epic proportions. both teams had multiple hall of famers on them. it was a great time to be a fan of the NBA which I should also inform you Midnite stands for the National Basketball Association. hopefully this brief but im sure very informative synopsis for you will help you better understand why you feel some celtics fans are "overblowing" it. trust me when i say this that the lakers fans would be just as boastful.
**later when you have time google a guy by the name of Michael Jordan. he was pretty good
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The reality is that the Lakers (and I love 'em) had 1 superstar and a few decent players... Boston had 3 all stars on that team... Hell, 3 superstars really... The Lakers didn't have a chance this year.
Next year with Bynum healthy and a trade and we'll see what happens.
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Next year with Bynum healthy and a trade and we'll see what happens.
Nah i dont give them a chance, bynum is over-rated, all this hype is based on a few games.
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really how is that so insane? who has won more championships in the past six years? lakes or the spurs?
and the fact that i would take the spurs over the lakes again is clearly my opinion and im sure i wouldnt be the only one..the difference is youre making excuses as to why the lakes lost.
Which was the better team this year in terms of record during the regular season, Spurs or Lakers? Answer: Lakers.
Which was the better team this year in terms of postseason record, Spurs or Lakers? Answer: Lakers.
Which team went to the NBA finals, Spurs or Lakers? Answer: Lakers
Which team defeated the other in the playoffs 4-1, Spurs or Lakers. Answer: Lakers
Now, someone who is confronted with the above facts and states that he still would take the Spurs over the Lakers is denying reality. The fact that you cite to the fact of the Spurs records in prior seasons only adds more proof to my point. You are right, it is your opinion, an insane one.
As far as me denying reality, let me say again for all to hear: The Celts are champs, the Celts are Champs!!!! If the Celts and lakers played again the Celts would win because they're the better team this year!
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Which was the better team this year in terms of record during the regular season, Spurs or Lakers? Answer: Lakers.
Which was the better team this year in terms of postseason record, Spurs or Lakers? Answer: Lakers.
Which team went to the NBA finals, Spurs or Lakers? Answer: Lakers
Which team defeated the other in the playoffs 4-1, Spurs or Lakers. Answer: Lakers
Now, someone who is confronted with the above facts and states that he still would take the Spurs over the Lakers is denying reality. The fact that you cite to the fact of the Spurs records in prior seasons only adds more proof to my point. You are right, it is your opinion, an insane one.
my opinion is heavily influenced by the lakes flop in the finals no doubt, i have never seen a team get dominated in the paint like that or much less simply give up in a game that they needed to win to stay in the series. you can take joyous pride in the fact that the lakes won the conference finals against the spurs reminisce about the victory over the spurs till your hearts content, pound your chest with all your might and hold your head up high, just do you best not to remember what happended in the finals.
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Nah i dont give them a chance, bynum is over-rated, all this hype is based on a few games.
i dont think he is overrated, i think he'll have a big impact once once he settles down. he seems like a solid double double guy. once the lakes can have a threat on the inside, kicking it out to 24 or whomever is on the perimeter will be much more effective. that and they're already a great passing team. they'll be one of the fav out of the west i think.
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my opinion is heavily influenced by the lakes flop in the finals no doubt, i have never seen a team get dominated in the paint like that or much less simply give up in a game that they needed to win to stay in the series. you can take joyous pride in the fact that the lakes won the conference finals against the spurs reminisce about the victory over the spurs till your hearts content, pound your chest with all your might and hold your head up high, just do you best not to remember what happended in the finals.
I should take this time in front of the board to admit I was wrong when I called you biased against Boston sports. Although I don't agree with your views on the patriots, I cannot call you biased. You have your opinion, which you are entitled to, but your actions in this thread have proven you are not a Boston hater, because if you where, you would be making excuses for the laker's.
Most view me as a yahoo when it comes to the pats, but admitting when I'm wrong is not something I have any issues with. I'm not wrong about my pats though ;)
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I should take this time in front of the board to admit I was wrong when I called you biased against Boston sports. Although I don't agree with your views on the patriots, I cannot call you biased. You have your opinion, which you are entitled to, but your actions in this thread have proven you are not a Boston hater, because if you where, you would be making excuses for the laker's.
Most view me as a yahoo when it comes to the pats, but admitting when I'm wrong is not something I have any issues with. I'm not wrong about my pats though ;)
no apology needed. i was never a Boston hater i usually go for the underdogs in most cases. there is nothing wrong with being a fan, the pats win just so damn much. unlike the Celtic and Pierce. also the fact that i probably would have said Pierce was way overrated and argued it to the ends of earth with you had he not did so well in the finals and won. i would have been wrong regarding Pierce. and from that i can see how my opinion can be wrong.
as for your Pats..yes im sure they werent the only ones taping illegally Im sure most teams were doing that...there I said it. you have no idea how much work i had to push aside at my job to argue and research my point with you on the spygate thing. its all in good fun.. ;)
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i dont think he is overrated, i think he'll have a big impact once once he settles down. he seems like a solid double double guy. once the lakes can have a threat on the inside, kicking it out to 24 or whomever is on the perimeter will be much more effective. that and they're already a great passing team. they'll be one of the fav out of the west i think.
Cool post.
I think the lakers had lady luck on there side this season ( just kidding, they played great all year) now i dont mind bynum but his not going to take them over the hill, but its way to early to make predictions now, for now i say the Celts are champs and deservingly so...
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Nah i dont give them a chance, bynum is over-rated, all this hype is based on a few games.
I dunno... he's had constantly better numbers over the past two years... The more he plays, the better he does.
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I dunno... he's had constantly better numbers over the past two years... The more he plays, the better he does.
i hope he does play good and become a all-star.
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my opinion is heavily influenced by the lakes flop in the finals no doubt, i have never seen a team get dominated in the paint like that or much less simply give up in a game that they needed to win to stay in the series. you can take joyous pride in the fact that the lakes won the conference finals against the spurs reminisce about the victory over the spurs till your hearts content, pound your chest with all your might and hold your head up high, just do you best not to remember what happended in the finals.
I remember. Trust me, I will never forget the carnage. We take no joy in conference championships in Lakerland. But I will not sit back and let Spurs fans say they had the better team this year when the facts say otherwise. And I am by no means anti-Spur, they are a fantastic organization, they changed the way scouting is done on the international front, and I've said all of this before on the sports board many times.
If a Celts fan says they have a better team I say "absolutely."
If a Pistons fans says they have a better team I say "maybe."
If anyone in the Western Conference says that after the Lakers went 12-4 against the toughest Western Conference in years, they are going to receive a beat down. So be a man, admit the facts, the Lakers were not the best in the NBA this year but better than the Spurs and say "we'll get you next year." That is what I try to teach my 6 year old is "good sportsmanship." Try it.
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I remember. Trust me, I will never forget the carnage. We take no joy in conference championships in Lakerland. But I will not sit back and let Spurs fans say they had the better team this year when the facts say otherwise. And I am by no means anti-Spur, they are a fantastic organization, they changed the way scouting is done on the international front, and I've said all of this before on the sports board many times.
If a Celts fan says they have a better team I say "absolutely."
If a Pistons fans says they have a better team I say "maybe."
If anyone in the Western Conference says that after the Lakers went 12-4 against the toughest Western Conference in years, they are going to receive a beat down. So be a man, admit the facts, the Lakers were not the best in the NBA this year but better than the Spurs and say "we'll get you next year." That is what I try to teach my 6 year old is "good sportsmanship." Try it.
im not a spurs fan, in the nba i tend to follow players more than teams. when it comes to playoffs and finals i usually go for the veterans that havent won a ring. figure the young guys have ten years left. in this case Pierce and the gang were all ring-less plus they were the under dog, i made the mistake of thinking the lakes would take it in 6 and Pierce impressed me and proved me wrong. as much as i think kobe is the best player in the league if they were the same age, picking between the two to start a team would be difficult for me. and i hold kobe in high regard. another factor is that people underestimate how great Bird was, that was another factor that lead me to favor the celts. he wasnt that athletic but he was a gritty obsessive winner who could ball. also McKale sp? was one of the best PF ever and is also over looked today. i would have him in my top two PF of all time.
as far as the spurs go i would still take them over the lakes in a seven game series, i also dont think the money line on that series would be that lop sided if they played tomorrow. partly because the celts exposed the lakes so much.
but next year the lakes will be better with Bynum, but so will the spurs. spurs tend to do well every other year if you look at history. i would like to see the celts repeat or the mavs with dirk and stack to get in the finals. Pierce needs more ring for people to appreciate how good he is, which is unfortunate.
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im not a spurs fan, in the nba i tend to follow players more than teams. when it comes to playoffs and finals i usually go for the veterans that havent won a ring. figure the young guys have ten years left. in this case Pierce and the gang were all ring-less plus they were the under dog, i made the mistake of thinking the lakes would take it in 6 and Pierce impressed me and proved me wrong. as much as i think kobe is the best player in the league if they were the same age, picking between the two to start a team would be difficult for me. and i hold kobe in high regard. another factor is that people underestimate how great Bird was, that was another factor that lead me to favor the celts. he wasnt that athletic but he was a gritty obsessive winner who could ball. also McKale sp? was one of the best PF ever and is also over looked today. i would have him in my top two PF of all time.
as far as the spurs go i would still take them over the lakes in a seven game series, i also dont think the money line on that series would be that lop sided if they played tomorrow. partly because the celts exposed the lakes so much.
but next year the lakes will be better with Bynum, but so will the spurs. spurs tend to do well every other year if you look at history. i would like to see the celts repeat or the mavs with dirk and stack to get in the finals. Pierce needs more ring for people to appreciate how good he is, which is unfortunate.
I agree the Celts exposed a need the Lakers have which is tough, physical rebounding presense. I'm pretty sure Bynum is most of the solution although I would like to also see the addition one tough gritty veteran who adds something more off the bench (e.g. Kurt Thomas). The Lakers exposed the Spurs need for a younger more athletic offensive presence (Parker could not do it alone). It will be interesting to see in what direction they go.
As far as Pierce getting the recognition he deserves, I say better late than never.
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Word is the lakers are offering Posey a mid level contract. Celtics won't let him go :D
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I'm pretty sure Bynum is most of the solution although I would like to also see the addition one tough gritty veteran who adds something more off the bench (e.g. Kurt Thomas).
Bynum will make a heck of a difference. and they do need a solid gritty vet like a PJ Brown or a Posey. Phils teams always had one, Rodman, Grant and such. they need someone who can show the euro player how to be tough, it cant be Kobe cause i think they feel for him its a natural talent.
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i hope he does play good and become a all-star.
i think he will be. i thought he was going to be a bust when he was drafted, but he kept improving.
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Bynum will make a heck of a difference. and they do need a solid gritty vet like a PJ Brown or a Posey. Phils teams always had one, Rodman, Grant and such. they need someone who can show the euro player how to be tough, it cant be Kobe cause i think they feel for him its a natural talent.
Yup - word is the lakers have already offered Posey a mid level contract.... Boston will have to match, and I think they will.
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Yup - word is the lakers have already offered Posey a mid level contract.... Boston will have to match, and I think they will.
I think Boston is one of the only teams in the east with a solid starting core and a deep failry deep bench. Detroit being the other, but they're in turmoil now i think, they're trying to shop Sheed i heard. Posey will be much more appreciated in Boston than in LA by the fans i think. LA fans are so fickle, no offense Midnite. but they arrive late and leave early to the games or only show up when they're winning.
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I think Boston is one of the only teams in the east with a solid starting core and a deep failry deep bench. Detroit being the other, but they're in turmoil now i think, they're trying to shop Sheed i heard. Posey will be much more appreciated in Boston than in LA by the fans i think. LA fans are so fickle, no offense Midnite. but they arrive late and leave early to the games or only show up when they're winning.
That's because of LA traffic actually.