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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: 4thAD on July 03, 2008, 08:57:04 AM
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This was found and posted by a really good bro from Xtraxxl.com(Gustavo77). The study is about the effectiveness of lowdose(25mged) clomid for those worried about or experiencing sides related to the use of clomid.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118719310/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
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Gus is a good bro.
i've never used more than 50mg per day.
8)
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247 to 610. Nice bump on only 25mg/day.
I don't understand some of the clomid doses I read about, like guys taking 300mg/day. Is that supposed to be for guys who took no AI and are brimming over with E or something? I'd like to see the dose/response data on clomid if anyone has it. Otherwise, I'll keep calling those guys nutz.
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I don't understand some of the clomid doses I read about, like guys taking 300mg/day. Is that supposed to be for guys who took no AI and are brimming over with E or something?
That's a front load due to the long half-life. Unnecessary.
If you use Nolva instead you might not need much either:
Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men.
Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM.
Administration of the antiestrogen tamoxifen for one month to 12 patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia significantly increased the mean basal testosterone (T) level and the responses of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) to constant luteinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) infusion but did not significantly influence the mean oestradiol (E2) levels or the E2 over testosterone ratio. Mean sperm concentration and total sperm output increased by about 70% after a mean treatment period of 5.5 +/- 0.4 months. No statistically significant difference was found between the two subgroups of patients treated with either the lower (5 or 10 mg once daily) or higher dose of tamoxifen (10 mg twice daily) with respect to basal or LHRH stimulated gonadotropin and testosterone response or the E2/T ratio and the effect on sperm density and total sperm output. In both subgroups the sperm motility and morphology remained unchanged. In conclusion higher doses of tamoxifen in this study prove not to be superior to lower doses in improving mean sperm density and total sperm output. The relative small percentage of patients achieving normalisation of only these sperm parameters pleads for further search for more effective selection of patients and other more effective treatment modalities in patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia.
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i got an error, can someone post it in the thread?
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Here you go worm! I just got an error also, but I think its the websites server.
Clomiphene Citrate Effects on Testosterone/Estrogen Ratio in Male Hypogonadism
Ahmad Shabsigh, MD 1 , Young Kang, MD 1 , Ridwan Shabsign, MD 1 , Mark Gonzalez, MD 1 , Gary Liberson, MD 1 , Harry Fisch, MD 1 , and Erik Goluboff, MD 1
1 Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA
Correspondence to Harry Fisch, MD, 944 Park Ave, New York, NY 10020, USA. Tel: 212-879-0800; Fax: 212-988-1634; E-mail: harryfisch@aol.com
Copyright Blackwell Publishing Ltd 2005
KEYWORDS
Endocrinologic Studies of Sexual Function • Testosterone • Male Hypogonadism
ABSTRACT
Abstract Introduction Materials and Methods Main Outcome Measures Results References
Aim. Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testostosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio.
Methods. Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.
Results. The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 ± 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 ± 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4–6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 ± 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.
Conclusions. Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estadiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway. Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, and Goluboff E. Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism. J Sex Med 2005;2:716–721.
DIGITAL OBJECT IDENTIFIER (DOI)
10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00075.x About DOI
Related Articles
* Find other articles like this in Wiley InterScience
* Find articles in Wiley InterScience written by any of the authors
Wiley InterScience is a member of CrossRef.
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This was found and posted by a really good bro from Xtraxxl.com(Gustavo77). The study is about the effectiveness of lowdose(25mged) clomid for those worried about or experiencing sides related to the use of clomid.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118719310/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
I've had nothing but bad experiences from using Clomid.
Estrogen rebound and fat gain big time!
I'd recommend those coming off to stay with HCG/Nolvadex......
DIV
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I've had nothing but bad experiences from using Clomid.
Estrogen rebound and fat gain big time!
I'd recommend those coming off to stay with HCG/Nolvadex......
DIV
I'd say it's best to try out both and see what works for you as an individual. Not everyone experiences the same side effects so it's important people find out what works for them.
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I'd say it's best to try out both and see what works for you as an individual. Not everyone experiences the same side effects so it's important people find out what works for them.
Of course side effects differ from person to person.......
Based on my experience, though, it's not worth the risk when Nolvadex/HCG are better for PCT.
DIV
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Of course side effects differ from person to person.......
Based on my experience, though, it's not worth the risk when Nolvadex/HCG are better for PCT.
DIV
elaborate
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elaborate
some experience the side effects, some dont!
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some experience the side effects, some dont!
oh, yeah i know THAT, i want him to explain why nolva/hcg is better for pct tho.
'cuz as far as I know...in theory they work the exact same , but in studies clomid is shown to boost test and i havent yet seen a study to show that nolva does.. ive only heard that nolva is a serm the same as clomid and that price per effective dose its cheaper..
im wondering why he says it "is better"
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A lot of guys cant/wont use clomid because of the blurry vision, depression, and emotional ups and downs they get from clomid. I have only seen a couple of studies that show nolvadex to increase natural test, and one of them Van posted today. Visions(for those that know him) has posted many that show nolva not to increase test at all. I have even seen one that showed an increase in semen output, but no increase in test. On that note I have had very good success with nolvadex and aromasin post cycle. Granted I ran HCG from start to finish witch IMO helps recovery dramatically.
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A lot of guys cant/wont use clomid because of the blurry vision, depression, and emotional ups and downs they get from clomid. I have only seen a couple of studies that show nolvadex to increase natural test, and one of them Van posted today. Visions(for those that know him) has posted many that show nolva not to increase test at all. I have even seen one that showed an increase in semen output, but no increase in test. On that note I have had very good success with nolvadex and aromasin post cycle. Granted I ran HCG from start to finish witch IMO helps recovery dramatically.
^That's the best way to run HCG, IMO.
You will not experience as hard a crash if you do it this way.
Clomid does increase semen output, but I think it's overrated compared to Nolvadex when used for PCT.
Too many sides, and some of them are just not worth.
DIV
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^That's the best way to run HCG, IMO.
You will not experience as hard a crash if you do it this way.
Clomid does increase semen output, but I think it's overrated compared to Nolvadex when used for PCT.
Too many sides, and some of them are just not worth.
DIV
Just curious, what dosages did you run when you experienced the sides?
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Just curious, what dosages did you run when you experienced the sides?
50MG ed.........
I decided to give a bit of time before giving up on it.
The fat I gained took weeks to get rid of.
DIV
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Visions(for those that know him) has posted many that show nolva not to increase test at all. I have even seen one that showed an increase in semen output, but no increase in test.
I'd like to see those studies.
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Why does clomid cause fat gain or cause depression?
I thought these were caused by lack of testosterone....and clomid is suposed to increase test???
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I'd like to see those studies.
I think what he means is that Nolvadex in and of itself doesn't increase Testosterone, yet during PCT due to the tapering of exogenous Testosterone, the Nolvadex reduces anabolic crash by inhibiting the endegenous Estrogen circulating in the body, specifically in those target tissues it was designed for.
Why does clomid cause fat gain or cause depression?
I thought these were caused by lack of testosterone....and clomid is suposed to increase test???
I think for me, it was a combination of using HCG in conjunction with Clomid.......the Clomid caused an excess of Testosterone which in turn aromatized to Estrogen.....and there was no coming back from that.
DIV
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I think for me, it was a combination of using HCG in conjunction with Clomid.......the Clomid caused an excess of Testosterone which in turn aromatized to Estrogen.....and there was no coming back from that.
DIV
why would excess estrogen make you fat ? why would an increase in aromatized testosterone effect your if your taking clomid, which effectively desensitizes your body(the part that counts, anyways) to the estrogen?
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I think what he means is that Nolvadex in and of itself doesn't increase Testosterone,
Yes. But my hunch is that it pretty much always does increase testosterone when given to a male. If Clomid works in a situation Nolva should too. I can't recall seeing a study where it failed to increase T. But if there are I'd like to see it.
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Clomid gives me fucked up dreams. :-\
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Yes. But my hunch is that it pretty much always does increase testosterone when given to a male. If Clomid works in a situation Nolva should too. I can't recall seeing a study where it failed to increase T. But if there are I'd like to see it.
I tend to think that Nolvadex is less problematic than Clomid given the same PCT variables.
DIV
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division you want to expand on these questions dude? id love for you to teach me what you know
why would excess estrogen make you fat ? why would an increase in aromatized testosterone effect your if your taking clomid, which effectively desensitizes your body(the part that counts, anyways) to the estrogen?