Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: candidizzle on July 13, 2008, 12:47:41 PM
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what do you guys think would happen if somebody took metformin a half hour before administering insulin ?
exaggerate the effects?
no effect?
diminish te effect?
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it will definately increase the effects of slin, much higher chances of going hypo...supposedly it's good to take metformin on slin cycles every 30 days or so to improve the receptors sensitivity. I personally use Metformin only on CKD to get me faster into state of ketosis after carb laod days.
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It will increase the effect, but not to a great degree as it takes some time for the metformin to get in your system. Now, take metformin for two days straight before the slin and the slin will hit you much harder.
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Metformin and insulin is what my wife takes for her blood sugar. The metformin is taken daily and the slin for when the blood sugar does not drop. Usually she takes the slin when the metformin does not do the job.
Slin dropes it fast so she has to be watched. Her blood sugar can go from around 400 to 130 in an hour so it would be dangerious for the normal person to take
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I forgot to add. I honestly think it would kill a normal person
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I forgot to add. I honestly think it would kill a normal person
nah it ain't....but like i said insulin by itself is powerfull enough...so tehres no need really for the glucophage
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I don't see the use of combining the two. From what I remember metformin doesn't increase insulin stimulated glucose uptake in skeletal muscle. It also lowers IGF-1 IIRC.
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what would be the benefits of taking metformin pre workout?
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I ran a cycle of metformin, T3, GH, insulin , and anabolics and got to 260lbs around 12% at 26yrs and I am 5'7 I had to eat constantly and trained 2 times per day but it absolutely rocked!!!!
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I ran a cycle of metformin, T3, GH, insulin , and anabolics and got to 260lbs around 12% at 26yrs and I am 5'7 I had to eat constantly and trained 2 times per day but it absolutely rocked!!!!
how did you utlilize the metformin?
and if you dont mind could you outline your slin protocol?
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what do you guys think would happen if somebody took metformin a half hour before administering insulin ?
exaggerate the effects?
no effect?
diminish te effect?
You have to be kidding. ::)
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Metformin and insulin is what my wife takes for her blood sugar. The metformin is taken daily and the slin for when the blood sugar does not drop. Usually she takes the slin when the metformin does not do the job.
Slin dropes it fast so she has to be watched. Her blood sugar can go from around 400 to 130 in an hour so it would be dangerious for the normal person to take
Is your wife Type II who's had to go onto insulin or is she type I?
The reason I ask is I asked about that combination when I was having insulin resistance problems last year and was basically told it wouldn't work if there is no endogenous insulin production. I've argued back and forth about it, but in the end the endocrinologist won.
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You have to be kidding. ::)
no, ive always wondered why people dont use the two together... it seems to me that if metformin increases insulin sensitivity and insuling is INSULIN,, (lol), then the two would be synergistic.....woudl they not ?
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You have to be kidding. ::)
this is why i love this board :)
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I ran a cycle of metformin, T3, GH, insulin , and anabolics and got to 260lbs around 12% at 26yrs and I am 5'7 I had to eat constantly and trained 2 times per day but it absolutely rocked!!!!
Post pics......
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this is why i love this board :)
you didnt contribute anything to this thread and you have never displayed any kind of knowledge or helped anyone else out on ths board, benz.
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no, ive always wondered why people dont use the two together... it seems to me that if metformin increases insulin sensitivity and insuling is INSULIN,, (lol), then the two would be synergistic.....woudl they not ?
Um, insulin isn't Insulin in some cases.....
The exact mechanism of metformin is not known. It is thought to inhibit gluconeogensis by affecting carbohydrate and lipid metabolism in the liver and its thought to have some indirect action sensitizing insulin receptors, but to the best of my knowledge the exact mechanism is unknown.
Theres a lot of disent with metformin amoung diabetics. Ask one person and its a miracle drug, ask another and its the devil, the same as actos.
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you didnt contribute anything to this thread and you have never displayed any kind of knowledge or helped anyone else out on ths board, benz.
Im not that stupid to believe that a box of glucophage will help, but if you want i can take pics of the ones i got here to prove my knowledge isnt based on what i read over and over, sissy.
Anyway and back to the main point, vet's comment is why i love this board, wheres division for the smash :)
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Um, insulin isn't Insulin in some cases.....
The exact mechanism of metformin is not known. It is thought to inhibit gluconeogensis by affecting carbohydrate and lipid metabolism in the liver and its thought to have some indirect action sensitizing insulin receptors, but to the best of my knowledge the exact mechanism is unknown.
Theres a lot of disent with metformin amoung diabetics. Ask one person and its a miracle drug, ask another and its the devil, the same as actos.
when is insulin not insulin ?
so what your saying is that metformin DOES NOT promote insulin sensitivity ?
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I forgot to add. I honestly think it would kill a normal person
I honestly dont' know. I'm convinced it'd be safer to hit a stick of dynamite with a sledge hammer than do insulin like some people on the boards claim to do. I'm also convinced that majority of the people doing insulin who are also taking GH are severely insulin resistant (maybe even type II diabetic) and just don't know it.
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I know Dr. Atkins wasn't a big fan of insulin but was more fond of metformin.
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Im not that stupid to believe that a box of glucophage will help, but if you want i can take pics of the ones i got here to prove my knowledge isnt based on what i read over and over, sissy.
Anyway and back to the main point, vet's comment is why i love this board, wheres division for the smash :)
you still have contributed zero, you still have displayed zero knowledge,
division for the smash ?
grow up
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I honestly dont' know. I'm convinced it'd be safer to hit a stick of dynamite with a sledge hammer than do insulin like some people on the boards claim to do. I'm also convinced that majority of the people doing insulin who are also taking GH are severely insulin resistant (maybe even type II diabetic) and just don't know it.
Great comment man
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when is insulin not insulin ?
so what your saying is that metformin DOES NOT promote insulin sensitivity ?
Lets see.....
most of the insulins prescribed now days (humalog, novolog, lantis) are not "insulin". It used to be diabetics were treated with actual "insulin" by injecting bovine or pork insulin. These insulins are nearly identical to human insulin, differing by only a couple of amino acids each (pork is 1 or 2, bovine is 3). This stopped with the DNA recombinant technolgies in the 1980s. At that time, humulin R was developed which is a DNA recombinant technology "Human" insulin. From there the technology moved to insulin analogues which are chemical structures similar to insulin which act on the insulin receptor, but really aren't insulin chemically. They are an altered form, unlike anything occuring naturally in nature, but still have an insulin action.
And for the second question,
No, I'm saying its not known to the best of my knowledge.
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you still have contributed zero, you still have displayed zero knowledge,
division for the smash ?
grow up
I studied business and economy and i go to china once a year to check my biz over there, do you really think i need to prove anything to someone that think he's a roids master with a pt diploma bought at www.buyadiploma.com and that learned everything about meds by just reading google? haha sure :)
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I know Dr. Atkins wasn't a big fan of insulin but was more fond of metformin.
Again, its a lipid/carbohydrate metabolism thing.
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I studied business and economy and i go to china once a year to check my biz over there, do you really think i need to prove anything to someone that think he's a roids master with a pt diploma bought at www.buyadiploma.com and that learned everything about meds by just reading google? haha sure :)
;D
Sorry, that post is funny.
On the other side, I gotta run Candy. I'll try to get online later tonight if you are still confused.
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Lets see.....
most of the insulins prescribed now days (humalog, novolog, lantis) are not "insulin". It used to be diabetics were treated with actual "insulin" by injecting bovine or pork insulin. These insulins are nearly identical to human insulin, differing by only a couple of amino acids each (pork is 1 or 2, bovine is 3). This stopped with the DNA recombinant technolgies in the 1980s. At that time, humulin R was developed which is a DNA recombinant technology "Human" insulin. From there the technology moved to insulin analogues which are chemical structures similar to insulin which act on the insulin receptor, but really aren't insulin chemically. They are an altered form, unlike anything occuring naturally in nature, but still have an insulin action.
And for the second question,
No, I'm saying its not known to the best of my knowledge.
synthetic insulin that acts like insulin isnt insulin :-\
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;D
Sorry, that post is funny.
On the other side, I gotta run Candy. I'll try to get online later tonight if you are still confused.
:) i know google is a great source of information, no doubt, but that is a problem these days, people tend to believe they can learn the same without going to uni and later buy a diploma online ;)
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I studied business and economy and i go to china once a year to check my biz over there, do you really think i need to prove anything to someone that think he's a roids master with a pt diploma bought at www.buyadiploma.com and that learned everything about meds by just reading google? haha sure :)
you dont need to prove anything benz. you just need to keep your mouth shut and you negative baseless attacks off of this board.
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Is your wife Type II who's had to go onto insulin or is she type I?
The reason I ask is I asked about that combination when I was having insulin resistance problems last year and was basically told it wouldn't work if there is no endogenous insulin production. I've argued back and forth about it, but in the end the endocrinologist won.
I just called to ask her. She is type 2,
Metformin helps produce insulin in the body.
Insulin is injecting straight insulin into the body.
The metformin regulates natural insulin production.
Hope this helps
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You have to be kidding. ::)
......you can't blame the kid for asking questions.
The more he knows, the better, IMO.
DIV
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......you can't blame the kid for asking questions.
The more he knows, the better, IMO.
DIV
I'm not.
Thats why I tried to answer his questions to the best of my ability after I made my initial comment.
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I just called to ask her. She is type 2,
Metformin helps produce insulin in the body.
Insulin is injecting straight insulin into the body.
The metformin regulates natural insulin production.
Hope this helps
Yeah, it makes alot more sense.
Thanks.
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synthetic insulin that acts like insulin isnt insulin :-\
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Metformin helps produce insulin in the body.
The metformin regulates natural insulin production.
Hope this helps
Nope
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i can't remember the dose on the metformin but I took half a pill AM and PM any more than that and I got diareahh. Lantus 5 i.u. with 4-6 i.u.s GH upon waking. 25 mcgs of T3 twice daily. 10 i.u.s of log post workout. Some variations of that but that was basically it.
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i can't remember the dose on the metformin but I took half a pill AM and PM any more than that and I got diareahh. Lantus 5 i.u. with 4-6 i.u.s GH upon waking. 25 mcgs of T3 twice daily. 10 i.u.s of log post workout. Some variations of that but that was basically it.
You took a basal insulin with GH? That goes right along with my idea of insulin resistance with GH.
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I just called to ask her. She is type 2,
Metformin helps produce insulin in the body.
Insulin is injecting straight insulin into the body.
The metformin regulates natural insulin production.
Hope this helps
yeah...whatever
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You took a basal insulin with GH? That goes right along with my idea of insulin resistance with GH.
ive read many places that you need to take insulin wit gh because of the fact that with gh you become insulin insensitive. the exogenous insulin takes care of that. not too mention insulin and gh(igf-1) are counter balancing growth agents in the body,,, and having them circulatin in super physiological levels at one time would be super synergistic for muscular gains...
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how did you utlilize the metformin?
and if you dont mind could you outline your slin protocol?
Candi, you are getting way ahead of yourself. The last thing you need to take is insulin or the kinds of doses of Test of Deca that I hear you talking about.
You are on your first cycle and should stick to the basics. 500 mg of Test or less should make you grow like a weed. If you start with multiple drugs or with higher doses than necessary, where are you going to go from there? It's just not necessary...With proper training and a good diet (which I give you credit for understanding at a reasonable level) you will get great results.
I'm not trying to flame you, but you obviously have an addictive and(or) abusive personality when it comes to drugs. Take your time. You will get better results and less sides.
P.S. The Mods should make you add a signature to your account that says: "I have no actual experience in anything I discuss. Everything I say is hearsay and should not be misconstrued as well founded advice." ;D
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broseph
i only am asking questions
i am interested in all kinds of things
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Nope
If I'm wrong then please tell me. The gentlman wants an answer and so do I.
If the doctor is wrong then please enlighten us.
I could of not called and gave dizzle advice.
You know I'm joking dizzle
Your growing on me AND there is nothing wrong with asking questions.
Also believe nothing is set in stone, sometimes going against the grain and the rules
gets you were others have dared to go.
But don't take the combo, you will know what sucking really is
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If I'm wrong then please tell me. The gentlman wants an answer and so do I.
If the doctor is wrong then please enlighten us.
I could of not called and gave dizzle advice.
You know I'm joking dizzle
Your growing on me AND there is nothing wrong with asking questions.
Also believe nothing is set in stone, sometimes going against the grain and the rules
gets you were others have dared to go.
But don't take the combo, you will know what sucking really is
i was just interested , because metformin has been propagated as being a ptent insulin sensitizing agent.. and insulin is insulin.. so the combo on the surface seemed to be super synergistic...
i am wondering now just what kind of use met can have at all. gh15 said he used it pre workout. but idk why
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If I'm wrong then please tell me. The gentlman wants an answer and so do I.
If the doctor is wrong then please enlighten us.
I could of not called and gave dizzle advice.
You know I'm joking dizzle
Your growing on me AND there is nothing wrong with asking questions.
Also believe nothing is set in stone, sometimes going against the grain and the rules
gets you were others have dared to go.
But don't take the combo, you will know what sucking really is
metformin icreases insulin receptors sensitivity, thus makes the body produce less insulin..it's stacked togather with slin to help get maximal effect from the slin without using very high doses of slin or increasing the dose after a few weeks of use
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P.S. The Mods should make you add a signature to your account that says: "I have no actual experience in anything I discuss. Everything I say is hearsay and should not be misconstrued as well founded advice." ;D
Most people who post here on a regular basis know who Dizzle is....
No signature required.
DIV
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metformin icreases insulin receptors sensitivity, thus makes the body produce less insulin..it's stacked togather with slin to help get maximal effect from the slin without using very high doses of slin or increasing the dose after a few weeks of use
Another scientific way to explain it. When I go to the dr I just say "I need to take this when?" If blood sugar still is high then insulin added. Simple enough for me.
Mabe I need to ask the doc the specific function of medication, but I bet he would just say read the instructions on the prescription.
Then I'll say, Well I'm a bodybuilder and I want to add it to my HGH cycle.
:P
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Most people who post here on a regular basis know who Dizzle is....
No signature required.
DIV
is that why you dont have one that says "i dont know jackshit about steroids or how the endocrine system functions. " ? ..everybody already knows..?
:D
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Another scientific way to explain it. When I go to the dr I just say "I need to take this when?" If blood sugar still is high then insulin added. Simple enough for me.
Mabe I need to ask the doc the specific function of medication, but I bet he would just say read the instructions on the prescription.
Then I'll say, Well I'm a bodybuilder and I want to add it to my HGH cycle.
:P
glucophage by it self is a waste , just use humulin r + HGH, i personally am tsacking slin, IGFLR3, PEG MGF and pretty happy with the results( +AAS of course)
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ive read many places that you need to take insulin wit gh because of the fact that with gh you become insulin insensitive. the exogenous insulin takes care of that. not too mention insulin and gh(igf-1) are counter balancing growth agents in the body,,, and having them circulatin in super physiological levels at one time would be super synergistic for muscular gains...
Basically yes. GH is released during hypoglycemia to counteract the low blood sugar. They work in opposition of each other, so a person taking GH is likely to have insulin insensitivity.
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Basically yes. GH is released during hypoglycemia to counteract the low blood sugar. They work in opposition of each other, so a person taking GH is likely to have insulin insensitivity.
yes and thats one of the reasons why you put insulin WITH gh for best gains
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Basically yes. GH is released during hypoglycemia to counteract the low blood sugar. They work in opposition of each other, so a person taking GH is likely to have insulin insensitivity.
actually Insulin is a must when using more than 5 iu of gh, to keep the sugar levels stable
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metformin icreases insulin receptors sensitivity, thus makes the body produce less insulin..it's stacked togather with slin to help get maximal effect from the slin without using very high doses of slin or increasing the dose after a few weeks of use
That makes no sense.
From the Prescriber Information for metformin:
CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
Mechanism of Action
Metformin is an antihyperglycemic agent which improves glucose tolerance in patients
with type 2 diabetes, lowering both basal and postprandial plasma glucose. Its
pharmacologic mechanisms of action are different from other classes of oral
antihyperglycemic agents. Metformin decreases hepatic glucose production, decreases
intestinal absorption of glucose, and improves insulin sensitivity by increasing peripheral
glucose uptake and utilization.
http://www.fda.gov/cder/foi/label/2000/21202lbl.pdf
I'm going to post it again...... The primary action of metformin is by affecting liver glucose metabolism and glucose absorption. The exact mechanism of this action is not known. There is some thought that it will increase insulin sensitivity but that exact mechanism of action is also not kown.
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yes and thats one of the reasons why you put insulin WITH gh for best gains
Candi, that goes back to what I've been preaching about insulin being something that has to be taken as a result of GH supplementation. I'm willing to bet there are a large number of GH users who are "borderline" diabetic or type II diabetic.
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and improves insulin sensitivity by increasing peripheral
glucose uptake and utilization. [/b]
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exactly..tahts the only use of metformin in bulk cycles, combined with slin. Heres a good article from anthony roberts about metformin.
http://steroidsprofiles.com/steroid/info/68
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Candi, that goes back to what I've been preaching about insulin being something that has to be taken as a result of GH supplementation. I'm willing to bet there are a large number of GH users who are "borderline" diabetic or type II diabetic.
oh, no doubt, i 100% agree.
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is that why you dont have one that says "i dont know jackshit about steroids or how the endocrine system functions. " ? ..everybody already knows..?
:D
I've been designing cycles for people for years.........through personal experience.
No google searches required.
You don't have to like it, but it's a fact.
I give out cycle advice via PM and have been doing so since before I was a Moderator here.
I'm not sure why you think you have either the knowledge or credibility to claim anything about me, but I do know a computer cowboy when I see one.
Your obsession with lashing out at anyone and everyone who disagrees with you, despite the fact that you really have no experience with AAS tells me that you have some severe inadequacies in your life.
You're trying to fill the gaps in your life with a false sense of power gained through your behaviour here.
Most people can see through it.
Personally, I think you have OCD/ADD or ADHD because your obsession with getting the last word, in whether you actually know anything pertaining to the subject or not, is legendary.
I don't have anything against you, but you've got to realize your meltdowns aren't endearing you to anyone.
I think it's great you read the journals, but reading something and actually seeing it through the course of your own experience are two completely different things.
Alot of guys on here have run many, many cycles and still don't have the "know it all" attitude that you bring to the table.
I think you should take this as constructive criticism because other people have tried to tell you the same thing.
People don't hate you (for the most part), but you're just making yourself look like an ass when you challenge people's opinions, people who have more knowledge and experience than yourself.
What exactly are you trying to gain from that?
You'd do yourself some good by more reading, and less posting.........and you'll learn alot more that way.
DIV
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hey division, keep your long winded arrogant words to yourself. your "advice" is wasted here bro. i have no use for the opinions of some pathetic fuck with delsuions of grandeur and knowledge.
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hey division, keep your long winded arrogant words to yourself. your "advice" is wasted here bro. i have no use for the opinions of some pathetic fuck with delsuions of grandeur and knowledge.
What's pathetic, the fact that I pegged you so easily or the fact that you take everything so personal?
I don't know you as a person off the forum, but your behavour on the forum dictates how people see you.
Is that pathetic?
It's just basic observation.
DIV
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What's pathetic, the fact that I pegged you so easily or the fact that you take everything so personal?
I don't know you as a person off the forum, but your behavour on the forum dictates how people see you.
Is that pathetic?
It's just basic observation.
DIV
no, you as a person are pathetic.
your assessment of me is laughable. at best.
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hey division, keep your long winded arrogant words to yourself. your "advice" is wasted here bro. i have no use for the opinions of some pathetic fuck with delsuions of grandeur and knowledge.
Its posts like this one (and the ones immediately before it) that make me think you are an idiot.
Seriously dude, reread what you are posting. Why?
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Basically yes. GH is released during hypoglycemia to counteract the low blood sugar. They work in opposition of each other, so a person taking GH is likely to have insulin insensitivity.
So when a diabetic is having a hypo would he be producing alot more GH?
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So when a diabetic is having a hypo would he be producing alot more GH?
Yes.... Initially you have increased epinephrine production and glucagon release (this gives you a "shakey weak" feeling assocaiated with hypoglycemia), then if the hypoglycemia is prolonged, cortisol is released, then GH is released. Typically the GH release is later in the hypoglycemic episode. Basically if you would measure GH at the end of an "insulin reaction" in a diabetic, if the pituitary gland is functioning normally, there should be an elevation in GH levels because GH is one of the hormones released to counteract hypoglycemia (in addition to epinephrine and cortisol--which have much more detrimental effects than the GH will in terms of bodybuilding--which I'm guessing you are thinking about).
This GH release (in conjunction with epinephrine and cortisol release) is associated with the Somogyi effect some diabetics have--where they have low blood glucose, and then have a rebound higher blood glucose that lasts for up to several hours after the hypoglycemic episode.
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Yes.... Initially you have increased epinephrine production and glucagon release (this gives you a "shakey weak" feeling assocaiated with hypoglycemia), then if the hypoglycemia is prolonged, cortisol is released, then GH is released. Typically the GH release is later in the hypoglycemic episode. Basically if you would measure GH at the end of an "insulin reaction" in a diabetic, if the pituitary gland is functioning normally, there should be an elevation in GH levels because GH is one of the hormones released to counteract hypoglycemia (in addition to epinephrine and cortisol--which have much more detrimental effects than the GH will in terms of bodybuilding--which I'm guessing you are thinking about).
This GH release (in conjunction with epinephrine and cortisol release) is associated with the Somogyi effect some diabetics have--where they have low blood glucose, and then have a rebound higher blood glucose that lasts for up to several hours after the hypoglycemic episode.
Interesting stuff mate :)
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Most people who post here on a regular basis know who Dizzle is....
No signature required.
DIV
Yes, but it's those that are new or only stop by infrequently that I worry about, should they take his advice.
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Its posts like this one (and the ones immediately before it) that make me think you are an idiot.
Seriously dude, reread what you are posting. Why?
yo vet
guess what
i dont care what you think bro :D
lol
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Candi, that goes back to what I've been preaching about insulin being something that has to be taken as a result of GH supplementation. I'm willing to bet there are a large number of GH users who are "borderline" diabetic or type II diabetic.
Yes and I think that's part of why they can stay lean year round. If you are insulin sensitive in fat cells you put on fat easy. Some degree of insulin resistance helps promote the lean look.
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Candi, that goes back to what I've been preaching about insulin being something that has to be taken as a result of GH supplementation. I'm willing to bet there are a large number of GH users who are "borderline" diabetic or type II diabetic.
Now would this be a permanent stop at diabetes door, or just while running the GH with out insulin? Is it something these users can recover from being that they had normal functioning bodies before GH?
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yo vet
guess what
i dont care what you think bro :D
lol
The sad truth of this statement is until he said anything negative about you, you were all on his jock, so obviously you do care...IMO
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The sad truth of this statement is until he said anything negative about you, you were all on his jock, so obviously you do care...IMO
dude, i honestly appreciate you dedicating this "iamthegame" acount to me. whoever you are operating this. much thanks bro; really make feel special :D
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dude, i honestly appreciate you dedicating this "iamthegame" acount to me. whoever you are operating this. much thanks bro; really make feel special :D
How does it feel to really be loathed here??? Just asking....lol
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Yes and I think that's part of why they can stay lean year round. If you are insulin sensitive in fat cells you put on fat easy. Some degree of insulin resistance helps promote the lean look.
I disagree with that completely.
There is some thought that fat cells as an organ are more sensitive to the effects of insulin. This is why fat cells secrete Resistan, that causes insulin resistance. This goes along with the though that Insulin resistance actually leads to higher bodyfat levels because there is higher circulating amount of insulin in an attempt for the body to keep blood glucose levels "normal". Because the fat is "more sensitive" it will continue to take up nutrients in instances where insulin may be too low for other organs---ie muscle tissue and continue to inhibit insulin activity, leading to more insulin being secreted and more nutrient uptake. And if the body isn't so insulin insensitive that it slides towards ketoacidosis, fat may not be burned (as in subclinical insulin insensitivity where the only abnormality may be a slightly elevated AM blood glucose after an evening carbohydrate load or shifting fructosamine levels). This leads to fat accumulation, not depression of bodyfat.
Supposedly the omental fat (which contains intrabdominal fat bodies) are especially susceptable to this. I personally think that is part of the reason we are seeing so many bodybuilders with "GH" gut. Its not "intestinal or liver enlargement" or "organ bloating" like so many internet guru's claim secondary to GH use. It makes more sense for accumulation of fat within the omental fat bodies, leading to abdominal distension than "organs growing". This is brought on by GH causing insulin insensitivity.
Think in terms of central adiposity with Type II diabetics. Its very similar in my mind.
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I disagree with that completely.
There is some thought that fat cells as an organ are more sensitive to the effects of insulin. This is why fat cells secrete Resistan, that causes insulin resistance. This goes along with the though that Insulin resistance actually leads to higher bodyfat levels because there is higher circulating amount of insulin in an attempt for the body to keep blood glucose levels "normal". Because the fat is "more sensitive" it will continue to take up nutrients in instances where insulin may be too low for other organs---ie muscle tissue and continue to inhibit insulin activity, leading to more insulin being secreted and more nutrient uptake. And if the body isn't so insulin insensitive that it slides towards ketoacidosis, fat may not be burned (as in subclinical insulin insensitivity where the only abnormality may be a slightly elevated AM blood glucose after an evening carbohydrate load or shifting fructosamine levels). This leads to fat accumulation, not depression of bodyfat.
Supposedly the omental fat (which contains intrabdominal fat bodies) are especially susceptable to this. I personally think that is part of the reason we are seeing so many bodybuilders with "GH" gut. Its not "intestinal or liver enlargement" or "organ bloating" like so many internet guru's claim secondary to GH use. It makes more sense for accumulation of fat within the omental fat bodies, leading to abdominal distension than "organs growing". This is brought on by GH causing insulin insensitivity.
Think in terms of central adiposity with Type II diabetics. Its very similar in my mind.
Well, how do you explain the extremely lean bodybuilders then, especially since you say many of them are severely insulin resistant? With the use of GH they stay much leaner throughout the off-season nowadays, even despite using lots of insulin too.
GH leads to higher insulin levels. Doesn't translate to higher bodyfat, so apparently the increase in insulin isn't enough to override the fat burning effects. Research shows that if you block the raise in FFA's you improve insulin sensitivity. The fat burning effects of GH are what leads to insulin resistance.
Other diet drugs used by bodybuilders can cause insulin resistance as well: the beta agonists and T3.
You are also looking at sedentary type II diabetics, not hard training bodybuilders. Bodybuilders make their muscles sensitive constantly by training hard. This will help drive glucose into muscle preferentially. Mild insulin resistance IMO is correlated with an extremely lean bodybuilder look - a disease state like actual type II diabetes is another matter.
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Vet, take a look at this piece by Lyle McDonald from his forum. Explains it beautifully. Candidizzle, you read this too, very good stuff. 8)
I received this email at my bodyrecomp adress and the sender said he didn't mind (and sort of wanted me to) if I adressed it in the forum so here goes.
***
I was extremely shocked to see you writing that during dieting, it would be actually
GOOD to be insulin resistant. You argued that Clen/ephedrin actually cause insulin
resistance (IR), sort of implying that that's one of the mechanisms via which they
work whereas I always thought that they worked DESPITE that effect.
the thing to realize is what insulin resistance actually implies. Insulin is a storage hormone, stimulating nutrient uptake in many tissues (including liver, muscle, and fat cells). This is especially true for glucose.
So what happens when fat cells are insulin resistant? It means that insulin can't inhibit lipolysis (fat breakdown). Nor can it activate nutrient storage. This is part of why severely insulin resistannt individuals get increased blood levels of glucose, fatty acids and cholesterol, insulin is unable to either limit release from the cell or stimulate uptake. Since muscle is full (see below), they either get stored in inappropriate places (beta-cells of the liver) or float around in the bloodstream.
What about in muscle? An insulin resistant muscle cell is unable to uptake glucose. Without glucose to use for fuel, the cell has to find an alternative source. In this case, that alternative source is fatty acids.
So when fat cell insulin resistance is high, fatty acids are easier to mobilze. When muscle cell insulin resistance is high, glucose isn't used for fuel and fatty acids are. So in a caloric deficit, this means you use more fat for fuel b/c they are coming out of fat cells more easily and muscle is usingg them preferentially for fuel.
this is part of how things like clen, EC and GH work. By mobilizing fatty acids at a high rate and making the muscle cell insulin resistant, muscle has to forego glucose for fuel and use the mobilized fatty acids instead (note: this also spares protein in a carb insufficient state). A recent study on GH found that the fatty acid mobilizing effect of GH was THE key to its protein sparing effects: block the increase in fatty acids and you get the same amount of protein loss.
On that note, you should realize that studies examining predisoposition to obesity (for example, in the Pima indians) find that insulin sensitivity predicts weight gain and insulin resistance predicts weight loss or stability.
Insulin resistance develops with obesity and can be thought of as a way for the body trying to prevent further weight gain. Note that this is different in growing individuals such as children or pregnant women. More below.Well I always thought IR was extremely bad in all situations (gaining weight, losing
weight, fat guy, skinny guy).
To be even more accurate to what I wrote above you need to differentiate muscle insulin resistance from whole body insulin resistance. In general, the body will develop insulin resistance in this order:
liver then muscle then fat cell
There are some weird genetic exceptions but the above would be a typical progression with diet induced insulin resistance.
Now, when muscle becomes insulin resistant, this shuttles more calories to the fat cells preferentially. In that sense, localized (muscular) insulin resistance causes more fat to be gained for a given caloric load. It's negative calorie partitioning. Note that this isn't only local, there are central (brain effects) controlling these processes as well.
This makes perfect sense: if the muscle is plenty full of nutrients and there is still a surplus, they should get pushed into storage as effectively as possible. So the msucle stops accepting nutrients and the rest go to the fat cells. The best way to prevent this is not to overeat and to deplete muscular fuel stores with exercise. In modern society, we do both: eat too much and don't exercise often enough. So muscle gets full of nutrients, becomes insulin resistant, and the excess calroeis go to fat cells post haste.
But as fat cells get filled up, problems start. The fat cell starts releasing a lot of hormones such as leptin, TNf-alpha, resistin (may only be relevant in rats) and others that prevent further nutrient storage (you can also get an increase in fat cell number). Now you're developing full body insulin resistance.
Once full body insulin resistance develops (with obesity), this acts to LIMIT further weight gain. Note that insulin resistance also means higher basal levels of insulin (there are also higher levlels of leptin as you get this fat). Both insulin and leptin *should* act to signal the brain to make you stop eating but the system isn't very sensitive to that. Additionally, it serves to push nutrients towards oxidation when you diet for the reasons above.
It's interesting to note that individuals without fat cells (lipodystrophy), which mimicks full body insulin resistance are protected against weight gain. First their muscles and liver fill up with nutrients, then they develop severe hyperglycemia, hypercholesterolemia and all the rest. Individuals with severe genetic insulin resistance have the same effect occur: they don't gain weight. They get a bunch of other health problems if you overfeed them but the severe genetic insulin resistance makes it so tnutrients can't be stored in their cells.
Also consider that insulin sensitivity improves as you lose weight. And the single time you are most prone to gain wight is at the end of the diet: when you are most insulin SENSITIVE.
As above, insulin sensitivity predicts weight gain, insulin resistance (full body) weight/fat loss.
Basically insulin resistance isn't always BAD. Quite in fact, it can be adaptive.
Now, in the context of excess calories/carbs and no activity (i.e. weight gain), insulin resistance is a bad thing to have. If you have muscular insulin resistance, more calories go to fat cells. If you have ful lbody insulin resistance, excess calories either sit in the bloodsream or get stored in the wrong spots, causing cell death.
Actually, if the goal is muscle gain with limited fat gain, it'd be wonderful to have fat cells resistant to nutrient storage and locally increase muscular insulin sensitivity. This would cause preferential nutrient partitioning to muscle. The question is how to do it. I have an idea but it's not fully fleshed out. For fatter individuals who begin an exercise program, this occurs naturally which is (IMO) one reason they can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. The exercise preferentially improves muscular insulin sensitivity, the fat cells are releasing fat like nobody's business and you get calorie partitioning until the point that it all starts to balance out.
When you're dieting and not eating enough carbs (by definition, on a diet, carbs are reduced), insulin resistance is adaptive. By making muscle rely on fatty acids for fuel, glucose is spared for the brain and other tissues which require it.
Note that most of the current insulin sensitizing medications (especially the TZD drugs) cause further weight gain. Obesity docs don't care becuse they just want to see blood glucose and the rest levels go down.
As above, whole body insulin resistance develops in an effort to both limit further fat/weight gain and ensure that the body burns the fat off (sparing muscle) when you diet. This would have been adaptive in the context of our evolutionary dieting pattern, it's maladptive in our current environment.
I've been avoiding caffeine like the plague since I read it causes IR - should I now
start getting in massive amounts again? And acquire ephedrine which I haven't used
in years?
ONLY if you're going to diet.Should I also NOT get my fish oil in?
Fish oils are interesting, in rats at least (I have yet to see this studied in humans and I don't consider the rat research conclusive except for the fact taht humans demonstrate similar end effects) they decrease fat cell insulin sensitivity and improve muscle cell insulin sensitivity. They also improve fat oxidation and a host of other stuff but the net results is nutrient partitioning aways fomr fat cells and towards muscle cells.
And should I NOT try to acquire
Glugophage from the doc? If I should try to get a prescription for something, what
would you recommend?? . I am 29yrs old, 5' 11", weight around 300 lbs with fat%
around 32%.
Riht before his death, Dan Duchaine commented that adding insulin sensitizersr to a diet seemed to increase muscle loss.
However, if you're at the point medically that you need to control blood glucose, you need to listen to your doctor, not me. Getting your diet and exercise program in order and losing bodyfat should be your primary goal as that alone will improve insulin sensitivity.
Lyle
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Van, thank you for posting that. very good read.
on a side note.. the whole article as i was reading i was thinking about the fish oil question... thinking i was royally fucking myself... lol.. damn what a relief when he said it was the exception..
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Well, how do you explain the extremely lean bodybuilders then, especially since you say many of them are severely insulin resistant? With the use of GH they stay much leaner throughout the off-season nowadays, even despite using lots of insulin too.
GH leads to higher insulin levels. Doesn't translate to higher bodyfat, so apparently the increase in insulin isn't enough to override the fat burning effects. Research shows that if you block the raise in FFA's you improve insulin sensitivity. The fat burning effects of GH are what leads to insulin resistance.
Other diet drugs used by bodybuilders can cause insulin resistance as well: the beta agonists and T3.
You are also looking at sedentary type II diabetics, not hard training bodybuilders. Bodybuilders make their muscles sensitive constantly by training hard. This will help drive glucose into muscle preferentially. Mild insulin resistance IMO is correlated with an extremely lean bodybuilder look - a disease state like actual type II diabetes is another matter.
I'm really not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to present things in a bit of a different light because I think we are all missing the boat to a degree with some of the stuff posted on the internet now days. I'm not aware of any reasonable studies on the exact composition of "GH gut".
My understanding is that there should really be different considerations on what is defined as "fat". For instance there is subcutaneous vs peripheral vs central vs visceral adipodisity. There is some relatively new thought that fat isn't just fat. This goes so far as for some individuals to label fat as an "organ" not just a cellular type or a tissue type. Stop and think of the fat people we all know. I'm sure we can think of that one individual with rolls of arm fat but who don't have a huge abdomen relative to body size---this would be an individual with a high amount of subcutaneous fat or a predisposition for an individual to accumulate fat in that region of their body. This may be catagorized as "pheripheral fat" with individuals who carry a large amount of "limb" fat---think of the women you know with saddle bags or floppy fat legs, yet they are actually relatively lean (relatively).
Central adipodisity shouldn't be confused with visceral adipodisity, but they are often interrelated. Central adipodisity is the classic "bug guy" with a gut that we can all think of examples of also. Individuals like this tend to carry quite a bit of weight in the abdomen, but have very lean and even vascular arms and legs. A contributing factor to this are individuals with visceral adipodisity, where they carry a large amount of fat inside of their abdomenal cavity---which is what i'm talking about with bodbuilders. They are lean peripherally, but thats not to say that they don't have a HUGE amount of omental fat secondary to the drug use.
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either i am completely lost or you totally missed the point.
anyway, fat is stred in certain areas over other areas based on test/estro levels along with alpha and beta recpetor density in certain regions compared to other regions
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I'm really not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to present things in a bit of a different light because I think we are all missing the boat to a degree with some of the stuff posted on the internet now days. I'm not aware of any reasonable studies on the exact composition of "GH gut".
My understanding is that there should really be different considerations on what is defined as "fat". For instance there is subcutaneous vs peripheral vs central vs visceral adipodisity. There is some relatively new thought that fat isn't just fat. This goes so far as for some individuals to label fat as an "organ" not just a cellular type or a tissue type. Stop and think of the fat people we all know. I'm sure we can think of that one individual with rolls of arm fat but who don't have a huge abdomen relative to body size---this would be an individual with a high amount of subcutaneous fat or a predisposition for an individual to accumulate fat in that region of their body. This may be catagorized as "pheripheral fat" with individuals who carry a large amount of "limb" fat---think of the women you know with saddle bags or floppy fat legs, yet they are actually relatively lean (relatively).
Central adipodisity shouldn't be confused with visceral adipodisity, but they are often interrelated. Central adipodisity is the classic "bug guy" with a gut that we can all think of examples of also. Individuals like this tend to carry quite a bit of weight in the abdomen, but have very lean and even vascular arms and legs. A contributing factor to this are individuals with visceral adipodisity, where they carry a large amount of fat inside of their abdomenal cavity---which is what i'm talking about with bodbuilders. They are lean peripherally, but thats not to say that they don't have a HUGE amount of omental fat secondary to the drug use.
It would be great if we could see DEXA scans of some pros to see what the hell is going on internally. I know Disgusted believes the guts are due to visceral fat. I have seen some data showing that visceral fat isn't insulin sensitive and we know that it's the fat that is first metabolized in dieters... so who knows if the pros are holding a lot of it at contest time? Does it change things when they are on a bunch of different drugs?
There is some relatively new thought that fat isn't just fat. This goes so far as for some individuals to label fat as an "organ" not just a cellular type or a tissue type.
Yup. An example, something called dSAT
Obesity (Silver Spring). 2007 Aug;15(8):1933-43. Links
Deep subcutaneous adipose tissue: a distinct abdominal adipose depot.
Walker GE, Verti B, Marzullo P, Savia G, Mencarelli M, Zurleni F, Liuzzi A, Di Blasio AM.
Laboratory of Molecular Biology, Istituto Auxologico Italiano, Via L. Cadorna, 90, Piancavallo, VB 28921, Italy. walkergi68@yahoo.com.
OBJECTIVE: Abdominal visceral (VAT) and subcutaneous adipose tissue (SAT) display significant metabolic differences, with VAT showing a functional association to metabolic/cardiovascular disorders. A third abdominal adipose layer, derived by the division of SAT and identified as deep subcutaneous adipose tissue (dSAT), may play a significant and independent metabolic role. The aim of this study was to evaluate depot-specific differences in the expression of proteins key to adipocyte metabolism in a lean population to establish a potential physiologic role for dSAT. RESEARCH METHODS AND PROCEDURES: Adipocytes and preadipocytes were isolated from whole biopsies taken from superficial SAT (sSAT), dSAT, and VAT samples obtained from 10 healthy normal weight patients (7 women and 3 men), with a mean age of 56.4 +/- 4.04 years and a mean BMI of 23.1 +/- 0.5 kg/m(2). Samples were evaluated for depot-specific differences in insulin sensitivity using adiponectin, glucose transport protein 4 (GLUT4), and resistin mRNA and protein expression, glucocorticoid metabolism by 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type-1 (11beta-HSD1) expression, and alterations in the adipokines leptin and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha). RESULTS: Although no regional differences in expression were observed for adiponectin or TNF-alpha, dSAT whole biopsies and adipocytes, while intermediary to both sSAT and VAT, reflected more of the VAT expression profile of 11beta-HSD1, leptin, and resistin. Only in the case of the intracellular pool of GLUT4 proteins in whole biopsies was an independent pattern of expression observed for dSAT. In an evaluation of the homeostatic model, dSAT 11beta-HSD1 protein (r = 0.9573, p = 0.0002) and TNF-alpha mRNA (r = 0.8210, p = 0.0236) correlated positively to the homeostatic model. DISCUSSION: Overall, dSAT seems to be a distinct abdominal adipose depot supporting an independent metabolic function that may have a potential role in the development of obesity-associated complications.
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either i am completely lost or you totally missed the point.
anyway, fat is stred in certain areas over other areas based on test/estro levels along with alpha and beta recpetor density in certain regions compared to other regions
I got off on a tangent, which then led to another tangent, and then a cross over, and a curve. I'm trying to keep things as simple as I can, but I think in doing so, I'm losing something in the translation from scientific jibberish to normal jibberish.
Sorry.
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It would be great if we could see DEXA scans of some pros to see what the hell is going on internally. I know Disgusted believes the guts are due to visceral fat. I have seen some data showing that visceral fat isn't insulin sensitive and we know that it's the fat that is first metabolized in dieters... so who knows if the pros are holding a lot of it at contest time? Does it change things when they are on a bunch of different drugs?
Yup. An example, something called dSAT
I agree 100%. I wonder what it'd take to get DEXA scans of the pros with "GH" gut? I'm willing to bet thats a study that will never, ever be done unfortunately.
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ive always been under the impression it was enlarged organs inside the stomach, along with overdeveloped abdominal muscles.
and not just that, but some of these guys seem to take pride in the distension. i think it makes them feel powerful :-X
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and not just that, but some of these guys seem to take pride in the distension. i think it makes them feel powerful :-X
There are some chicks who like a big powerful belly too :D