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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: SHUTUPANDTRAIN on July 16, 2008, 09:00:48 AM
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The Great Oral Debate: Anadrol vs. Dianabol
By Gavin Kane
For many years, a great debate has raged over which oral is superior for mass gains, and two of them have stood the test of time; dianabol and anadrol. The debate has continued, arguing which of the two is superior, yet no conclusive evidence has proven one better than the other. People respond to each one differently, some swearing by dbol and some swearing by anadrol. Before we declare one the winner, I am going to go over a bit of history and chemical structure on both products.
Anadrol (oxymetholone) was first made available in the 1960’s by Syntex. It is very effective at increasing red blood cell production and was promising for treating severe cases of anemia. With the advent of newer and more advanced drugs such as Erythropoietin, which have less androgenic side effects, Anadrol was discontinued. New studies in AIDS/HIV patients revealed Anadrol was particularly effective at reducing wasting symptoms so it was re-released in the late 1990’s.
Oxymetholone is a derivative of dihydrotestosterone, which in theory means it should not convert to estrogen. Since it does not aromatize but still causes gynecomastia in some users, there are other pathways by which it converts. After looking at studies on AIDS patients, I found that it may convert by actively activating the estrogen receptor, so this is a product that would need an anti-estrogen such as Nolvadex.
Dianabol (methandrostenolone) was first made in 1956 by John Zieglar of Ciba fame. Dianabol has been one of the most popular oral steroids of all time, exploding in popularity in the 1970’s with bodybuilders and football players and expanding into all avenues of athletics during the 1980’s. It somewhat waned during the 1990’s with the steroid control act, but was hot again in the early 2000’s with reproduction in mass quantities by Mexican labs and underground labs.
Methandrostenolone is a derivative of testosterone and hence will convert to estrogen. Gyno will be a concern for sure, in almost all users, whereas only less than 25% have problems with Anadrol. Again water retention will be a problem, usually due to the estrogenic properties.
Both products will have similar androgenic side effects, which include; acne, water retention, oily skin, male pattern baldness, and increased body hair growth. Both drugs are c17 alpha alkylated, therefore liver protection will be necessary, especially when combining the two.
So we come to the premise of this article, Anadrol vs. Dianabol. Why, the great debate over which product to take? They work on different pathways, have similar side effects you will have to combat, and both are liver toxic. So why is there a debate over which is better and which one should you take? Well, as I stated earlier, different people have different responses to each product. Many people, including myself, find high doses of Anadrol to be too much to handle in trade of the results you get. With this product, I have an extreme loss of appetite, massive water retention, and overall aches and pains and headaches.
On the other hand, when I take Dianabol, I get a general sense of well-being, good but not great size gains, and the ability to keep eating. It sounds like I should keep taking Dianabol and drop the Anadrol, right? Wrong. I get massive male pattern baldness from Dianabol, which I do not experience from Anadrol. I have an increase in blood pressure levels at doses that are high enough to match my gains from Anadrol, and I have to shorten my cycles because of the massive dosages I take to get good gains. So in all, I get some side effects from each that I would like to avoid, while still retaining the great benefits that I can only get from each product.
Anadrol is well known for its ability to cause massive size and strength increases, and as we all know, a stronger muscle has to become a bigger muscle with enough calories to feed it. Dianabol gives me large, quality muscle gains without as much water retention as Anadrol. So what is the compromise? Do I take one during one cycle and then the other product during my next cycle?
The answer is no to both. There is no need to short change yourself gains in either department when you can have your cake and eat it too. I am not alone in my assessments of both products. Most guys have similar issues of massive water retention, headaches and loss of appetite with Anadrol, and MPB and fewer gains with Dianabol comparatively. So, the best thing we can do is decrease our dosages of both products to cut down on side-effects and take them at the same time to increase the benefits.
My recommendation is to take both products in lower dosages but for longer periods of time. Dianabol has been found to work much better for quality gains when taken in lower dosages but for longer periods of time. High doses have severe side effects in some users, a loss of all gains with cessation of the product because of the short cycle (4-6 weeks) and most of the aforementioned side-effects.
Your dosages will be cycle history dependent but when I was at the peak of my career, I was taking cycles of 200mg Dianabol for 6 weeks per cycle, or 250-300mg Anadrol per 6 week cycle. In later cycles when I decided to combine the two products together, I was able to drop my Dianabol use to 50mg per day, and my Anadrol use to 100mg per day and because of the synergistic effect of the two products combined, the effect was similar to high doses of each but with none of the sides. There is something very synergistic when taking these two products together with just a simple cycle of testosterone and deca-durabolin.
I would run my Anadrol cycles for 8 weeks at that dose and my Dianabol cycles for 10 weeks at that low dose with no liver toxic effects as proven by my quarterly blood tests. I did not have to take liver protectants, but I recommend them for most users. I no longer had to watch my blood pressure, my water retention was minimal compared to earlier cycles, and I was able to continue eating massive amounts of food because I did not experience appetite loss from a massive dose of Anadrol.
I highly recommend on your next bulking cycle you try the following: A base cycle of test and deca, add in the Anadrol and Dianabol mix, and some Nolvadex. You will be able to control your water retention, liver toxicity, and other side effects by controlling your dosages. Your doses will vary from mine, but just adjust accordingly and run them for longer periods of time. You will be amazed at the simplicity of this cycle and yet the synergy is un-describable. Your gains will be far better than you have ever had when taking each product alone, your side effects will be less than if you were to take either product in higher doses, thanks to the different biochemical pathways. Everyone already knows that test and anadrol, and deca and dbol are very synergistic. Now combine all four in a cycle and watch yourself just blow up.
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50mg Dbol and 50mg Anadrol has been proven many times.
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For strength training, I prefer Anadrol.
The sides aren't exhibited when I take it.
D-bol on the other hand just makes me lethargic and "lazy".
I don't get a great sense of well-being on D-bol......it's takes me out of the mood to work out at all.
DIV
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For strength training, I prefer Anadrol.
The sides aren't exhibited when I take it.
D-bol on the other hand just makes me lethargic and "lazy".
I don't get a great sense of well-being on D-bol......it's takes me out of the mood to work out at all.
DIV
Div,
What do you think of the validity of his argument???
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Div,
What do you think of the validity of his argument???
There's nothing scientific backing his argument for both at lower dosages for longer periods of time......
It's strictly his opinion, presumably based on his own experience.
Like anything, opinions vary.
Personally, I think he's missing one important point.
Though A-drol is a deriavtive of DHT and D-bol a deriative of Test, he's assuming that using both concurrently won't somehow reduce the effectiveness of one or both.
The last thing you want to do is lose the full benefit of one or the other or both because you "want to have your cake and eat it too".
Assuming both drugs work for you without major sides, I'd recommend cycling one or the other full then alternating if you're resolute to use both.
DIV
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why would using dianabol along with anadrol cause one to be less effective? that goes against the general trend of all aas and hormones and hormone derivatives in general.
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Thanks for a good article.
Although i would not call 50 mg of dianabol and 100 mg of anadrol a low dose.
I haven't tryid anadrol, but dianabol in my book is magic in a bottle. Some say that anadrol is better, but anadrol is usually used in much higher doses. I don't think it's reasonable to say that anadrol is better if you are taking three times the doses that you would take dianabol in.
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i perfer anadrol over d-bol makes we hold way to much water i blow up and feel like a fat ass
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Thanks for a good article.
Although i would not call 50 mg of dianabol and 100 mg of anadrol a low dose.
I haven't tryid anadrol, but dianabol in my book is magic in a bottle. Some say that anadrol is better, but anadrol is usually used in much higher doses. I don't think it's reasonable to say that anadrol is better if you are taking three times the doses that you would take dianabol in.
They work in very different ways, so comparing them MG to MG isn't really applicable.
Anadrol makes me strong as fuck, dbol is about half as strong MG to MG, in my experience.
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They work in very different ways, so comparing them MG to MG isn't really applicable.
Anadrol makes me strong as fuck, dbol is about half as strong MG to MG, in my experience.
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???
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???
It's not applicable, but i gave my opinion anyway.
It's like comparing Tren to Primo, different action, but you can still compare personal results.
Why do i even reply to you... ;D
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so you think 100mg of dbol = 50mg anadrol ?
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so you think 100mg of dbol = 50mg anadrol ?
From my experience, yes.
You can google the other question, you already know they work differently.
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its all based on speculation. he has zero scientific backing , zero reference to the actual bilogical actions of the steroids, and no mention to any reasoning why the pairing would be beneficical.so the validdity is horseshit.
but as far as whther he is correct...lots of dudes say that the combo works awesome.
Do you really think there's any "Scientific evidence" to back up the validity behind today's typical pro cycle? Scientists wouldn't even give a Lab animal the ridiculous high doses some of these guy's take, let alone humans. These guys are Pioneers into uncharted areas of Hormone usage..no one really knows how severe the long term effects will be. I admire their courage, on one hand, but feel the risk/reward ratio is off. Yes, you'll have a freaky, superhuman physique this will boost your esteem, get you a lot of attention, and if you're in the top 5 at the O, maybe a bit of money. But unlike Ball players who juice and end up with multi-million dollar contracts, the average heavily juicing bodybuilder will probably end up with a variety of Chronic health problems and very litlle money to show for it. Not too bright if you ask me.
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Do you really think there's any "Scientific evidence" to back up the validity behind today's typical pro cycle?
yeah , plenty of it
not specific case studies
but plenty of science in regards to modes of actions and dose related effects of androgens and gh(igf) and insulin
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yeah , plenty of it
not specific case studies
but plenty of science in regards to modes of actions and dose related effects of androgens and gh(igf) and insulin
Sorry, they don't administer Humans 3000 mg of testosterone, in case studies.
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im sorrry, did you miss this part ?
not specific case studies
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im sorrry, did you miss this part ?
My point is that you wre saying there's no scientific studies that would show that dianabol and anadrol combined have certain effects. I'm saying most bodybuilder's drug combo's or stacks aren't backed up by any studies. How can you argue that? People do their stacks because of trial and error or following what others are doing. Unless they have a guy like Patrick Arnold advising them.
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My point is that you wre saying there's no scientific studies that would show that dianabol and anadrol combined have certain effects. I'm saying most bodybuilder's drug combo's or stacks aren't backed up by any studies. How can you argue that? People do their stacks because of trial and error or following what others are doing. Unless they have a guy like Patrick Arnold advising them.
oh, it was a critique of his article
he makes absolutely no argument based on the physiological actions of the two steroids.
it seems very weak to me.
i would agree most guys using steroids arent using them in any kind of strategic manner. and if they are, their strategies are based off speculation and here-say.
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Do you really think there's any "Scientific evidence" to back up the validity behind today's typical pro cycle? Scientists wouldn't even give a Lab animal the ridiculous high doses some of these guy's take, let alone humans. These guys are Pioneers into uncharted areas of Hormone usage..no one really knows how severe the long term effects will be. I admire their courage, on one hand, but feel the risk/reward ratio is off. Yes, you'll have a freaky, superhuman physique this will boost your esteem, get you a lot of attention, and if you're in the top 5 at the O, maybe a bit of money. But unlike Ball players who juice and end up with multi-million dollar contracts, the average heavily juicing bodybuilder will probably end up with a variety of Chronic health problems and very litlle money to show for it. Not too bright if you ask me.
This is why I don't think the risk/reward ratio favors bodybuilding.......at least for me.
Just not worth it.
DIV
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I've tried both and for what it's worth while on anadrol I had the BIGGEST size gains and the BIGGEST strength gains all while getting the leanest (fat free) that I've ever been in my life.
I'm all for Anadrol. But ALWAYS have some clomid and Nolvadex on you when you cycle down.
I've never had any bad side-effects with Anadrol either.
I've never tried both at the same time though. I really don't understand whay anyone would want to put their liver through some heavy duty shit like that either.
But it didn work great for me.
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I'm running 100mg of drol and 60mg of dbol right now in my 4th week, will be going another 2 weeks or so. I'm running liv52 with it and haven't had any sides of liver hepatoxicity, appetatie is fine and my urine color is clear as a whistle. So far I love it, the strength gains from this have been pretty incredible. I'll run it again later in my cycle (this is a 6 monther) so I'll get a little better picture of it since I'm running a ton of other shit right now as well.
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what is the best liver protection to use while running 60mg dbol per day?
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what is the best liver protection to use while running 60mg dbol per day?
Liv52
Im prefer to run the Liv52 after i quit the orals.
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Liv52
Im prefer to run the Liv52 after i quit the orals.
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Why is that? ???
I heard when you take liver protection along with your oral cycle, it reduces gains....
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Why is that? ???
I heard when you take liver protection along with your oral cycle, it reduces gains....
It was based on some pretty weak theoretical evidence. I doubt anyone has noticed reduced gains from the combo (?).
As far as the best liver protection when running orals, ursodesoxycholic acid looks like it might be the best - on paper. Hard to know without studies, but it's used to treat cholestasis and bile build-up which is what orals can cause. The antioxidants and glutathione boosters and bitter herbs won't hurt but hard to know if they help protect your liver when cycling.
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I saw this study on Essentiale Forte and steroid users
1: Clin Toxicol (Phila). 2007 Aug 30;:1-10
Multivitamins and phospholipids complex protects the hepatic cells from androgenic-anabolic-steroids-induced toxicity.
Introduction. Androgenic-anabolic-steroids (AAS)-induced hepatotoxicity typically occurs with C-17 alkylated oral agents abused by exercising individuals at clinically recommended doses. Injectable compounds appear to have the same risk for hepatotoxicity, but are applied in doses three to six times higher than clinically recommended. AAS users occasionally try to avoid the well-known hepatotoxic effects associated with the abuse of a multitude of AAS agents, by using the pharmaceutical agent compound N a phospholipid/vitamin preparation. Primary Objective. The investigation of the actual hepatoprotective effect of compound N against AAS-induced toxicity. Methodology. This was an observational cohort study of 320 athletes; 160 were AAS users and the other 160 were not abusing any substances. Of the 160 users, 44 were using AAS and compound N (group A), and 116 were using solely AAS (group B). The 160 athletes abstaining from substances abuse acted as controls (group C). All athletes were tested for alterations in serum levels of hepatic enzymes. Enzyme levels before the study's onset and after the end of the 8-week AAS regimes were compared among the three groups, in order to delineate the hepatoprotective effect of compound N. Results. Prior to our research all groups showed normal values in all enzymes except creatine kinase (CK). After the 8-week period, CK levels were slightly lower in group A, but without variation in Groups B and C; gamma-Glutamyl Transferase (gammaGT) levels remained normal. Groups A and C had no elevations in any of the enzymes, except CK, while in group B all enzymes' values were elevated above the normal range. The only factor differentiating AAS users in group A from those in group B was the use of compound N, thus the results being suggestive of the compound's detoxification effect. The severity of AAS abuse was positively associated with the degree of changes (Delta values) in all measured enzymes except gammaGT and CK. Conclusions. Previous suggestions that serum hepatic enzyme elevations in exercising AAS abusers are connected to muscle fiber damage rather than the abuse itself, are contradicted by our results. Since all AAS abusing athletes were prone to exhibit elevations in enzymes' values, the mean values of group A were to be similar to those observed in group B, exceeding normal values. The group hepatic enzyme values of group B were significantly higher than the group C (control). Notably, group A did not have any statistically significant difference in the hepatic enzyme values compared to group C. The effect of exercise on these enzymes' elevations was ruled out by the comparability of training regimens and AAS toxicity was correlated to the severity of AAS abuse.
Here's the product:
http://www.amazon.com/Essentiale-Forte-N-30-Capsules/dp/B000EE9GFM
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Why is that? ???
I heard when you take liver protection along with your oral cycle, it reduces gains....
Not sure about that.
I have never seen proof that taking Liv 52 with orals made it any safer. i have been under the impression that Liv 52 is best when taken after the orals are done with. But i could be wrong.
A friend of mine in Med school refers to Liv 52 as "PCT for your liver" after a cycle...kind of makes sense.
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Not sure about that.
I have never seen proof that taking Liv 52 with orals made it any safer. i have been under the impression that Liv 52 is best when taken after the orals are done with. But i could be wrong.
A friend of mine in Med school refers to Liv 52 as "PCT for your liver" after a cycle...kind of makes sense.
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I've always taken it while on orals and for two weeks after orals are done. It's never hurt anything and never effected gains at all so never really thought anything negative of it.
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yep I agree with E, I run it while on the orals and then even when the orals are done. I have not noticed any lack of gains while running liv-52.
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Yeah i don't really think it hurts anything, we all just have our own protocols.
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Yeah i don't really think it hurts anything, we all just have our own protocols.
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Oh absolutely. I have never seen proof that it makes orals any safer either, so I agree with you also. It makes sense as a pct for your liver though. I just run it pretty much the whole cycle, even front load before cycle starts.
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I saw this study on Essentiale Forte and steroid users
Here's the product:
http://www.amazon.com/Essentiale-Forte-N-30-Capsules/dp/B000EE9GFM
Is it good to run both of these at the sAme time:
Essentiale Forte N 30 Capsules & Liv. 52 or is the Liv. 52 good enough???
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Is it good to run both of these at the sAme time:
Essentiale Forte N 30 Capsules & Liv. 52 or is the Liv. 52 good enough???
How can I get Liv52???? In Europe.
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How can I get Liv52???? In Europe.
Ask your local pharmacy. :)
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Ask your local pharmacy. :)
I usually run Legalon, but I am willing to give it a try with Liv52. What is the daily dose?
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I don't know how you react to Liv52 but it does some great things to me.Positive and negative.
Whenever my liver hurts when on AAS Liv52 takes the pain away in a few days.
I had done the following cycle with Liv52 with great success and without any issues concerning my liver health.
1-4 100mg Drol/d,1g Test E/w
5-8 100mg Dbol/d,1g Primo/w
Liv52 was ran throught the whole cycle.Had zero liver pain and after a month i did some blood work.Everything was back to normal.
Liv52 and Milk Thistle does hurt MY gains always.
I didn't know what was going wrong at first.I was taking from 50mg Dbol to 100mg Drol and thought the source was bad.
After doing the same cycles with and without liver protect i found out what was the problem.
When i was taking liver protect was like taking only 5mg of Dbol.I could hardly see any gains coming.I dropped the liver protect and gains skyrocket.
I would suggest to run a normal amount of orals for 4-6 weeks at around 50mg without liver protect and then continue with injectables as Test which is rather safe at least for your liver.
By the way never tried the combo of Drol/Dbol,but for me 25mg of Drol is like 25mg of Dbol.Don't find any significant difference in gains.