Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: The True Adonis on August 24, 2008, 08:42:40 AM
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It is a question that boggles the mind. How do they view one as being acceptable and the other not?
What was the criteria in their choice?
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Also, do the naturals who took the PROHormones consider themselves still Lifetime Natural and did they consider PROHormones Natural at the time when they were using them?
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Fear of needles?
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/bttf/images/thumb/3/35/Needles.JPG/250px-Needles.JPG)
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If it was because of a legal standpoint or "my organization allowed it at the time" and not a "what is in the chemical" standpoint, then it would seem than by that criteria they would not be considered natural at all anymore as PROhormones now share the same designation as conventional anabolic steroids.
If the "Natruals" use this criteria, anyone who took steroids before 1990 would be considered just as natural.
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If it was because of a legal standpoint or "my organization allowed it at the time" and not a "what is in the chemical" standpoint, then it would seem than by that criteria they would not be considered natural at all anymore as PROhormones now share the same designation as conventional anabolic steroids.
By this criteria, anyone who took steroids before 1990 would be considered just as natural.
Do these "Naturals" who used that criteria in deciding to take Pro-Hormones also think Arnold Schwarzenegger was Natural because steroids were legal and allowed in their organization at the time?
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maybe they like all side effects and no gains.
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Sorry for interrupting. I didn't realize this was a monologue.
I still say the stigma of injecting leads people to believe they're not really a "drug user" if they just take a pill instead.
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Another Pondering:
Bodybuilder A injects or swallows enough conventional steroids to elicit X response in Testosterone levels.
Bodybuilder B Swallows enough PROHormones to elicit the same X response in Testosterone Levels.
Who is more natural?
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Sorry for interrupting. I didn't realize this was a monologue.
I still say the stigma of injecting leads people to believe they're not really a "drug user" if they just take a pill instead.
Its the "end" result that is achieved through whatever route of administration. Injecting coke gets u high, so does snorting it.
But, yes the uneducated part of society thinks "its worse" when the word 'needle' comes into play.
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Another Pondering:
Bodybuilder A injects or swallows enough conventional steroids to elicit X response in Testosterone levels.
Bodybuilder B Swallows enough PROHormones to elicit the same X response in Testosterone Levels.
Who is more natural?
What would the criteria be to pass judgement on who is "more natural"?
Guy A takes 5 x pills (aas,etc)
Guy B takes 20 x pills (pro)
If the same levels of test or hormones are present, then how can one be "more or less" than the other?
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What would the criteria be to pass judgement on who is "more natural"?
Guy A takes 5 x pills (aas,etc)
Guy B takes 20 x pills (pro)
If the same levels of test or hormones are present, then how can one be "more or less" than the other?
EXACTLY!
Which is why I find these "Naturals" who use or used Prohoromones so hypocritically amusing!
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Adam...
Heres my perspective on the whole pro-hormone thing....
Back when AST came out with their androstenedione/diol I tried a bottle of the Ultimate Nutrition Nor-19. Did I see anything from it? Nope. Do I think it was even potent? Nope. A lot of claims were made with it being 'just like steroids'. Yadda Yadda. Nothing is like steroids, except steroids. Now, fast forward a few more years and you start to see companies literally pushing the envelope on what they can sell as an OTC prohormone and what is a drug. Did that happen when I took them? Nope. Do I still think I am life-time drug free. Yep. If I did the whole M1-T (or whatever that was).....then nope.
As far as the Arnold thing...well, you couldnt very well go to a GNC-type of store and get that stuff. You had to go through dealer or a Walgreens type of store. Definitely a drug....definitely not a natural no matter what the DEA has classified it.
This is, and will be, a debate that will be as ongoing and never ending as the whole LaCour debate.
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TA,
do you think there is a universal "plateau" a natural can hit as far as gaining muscle mass/lowest bodyfat levels? When incorporating steroids, it seems there are unlimited levels anyone can reach, which is why there is such a diversity in the "bb'ing" world.
As gh15 always said, its very rare to find the avg. 5'9 bb'er 200lbs 12% bodyfat that doesnt juice....
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Adam...
Heres my perspective on the whole pro-hormone thing....
Back when AST came out with their androstenedione/diol I tried a bottle of the Ultimate Nutrition Nor-19. Did I see anything from it? Nope. Do I think it was even potent? Nope. A lot of claims were made with it being 'just like steroids'. Yadda Yadda. Nothing is like steroids, except steroids. Now, fast forward a few more years and you start to see companies literally pushing the envelope on what they can sell as an OTC prohormone and what is a drug. Did that happen when I took them? Nope. Do I still think I am life-time drug free. Yep. If I did the whole M1-T (or whatever that was).....then nope.
As far as the Arnold thing...well, you couldnt very well go to a GNC-type of store and get that stuff. You had to go through dealer or a Walgreens type of store. Definitely a drug....definitely not a natural no matter what the DEA has classified it.
This is, and will be, a debate that will be as ongoing and never ending as the whole LaCour debate.
Interesting Perspective.
That tells me a few things in your decision of ProHormones when you used them. You really had no idea of the potency or lack thereof, so it wasn`t a "whats in the chemical criteria", but rather a legal one as you took them blindly on faith in the hopes of working well.
Also, if you had gotten a very good result, you would not consider yourself lifetime natural anymore? Is that your contention? So there is also a potency factor involved.
So if a Steroid user got zero gains from steroids, he too would or could be considered Natural Post and Pre 1990?
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No need for 10 posts on the subject TA, you have your side of it. Why did you use prohormones?
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I think because the person who buys these prohormones looks on them as not being a steroid because they bought it from the same place they bought their protein or glutamine or whatever. So in their mind, because they bought it legally, it seems not like buying steroids. When you think of buying steroids, you think of the guy with the duffle bag at the gym loaded with d-dol and deca, not GNC or whatever online supplement company. Basiclly I think they tell themselves they are not really steroids because the way they were acquired, so they will keep calling themselves "lifetime natural". I know plenty of a-holes like this.
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Here's my take:
Pro-hormones were just another supplement sold in the stores making big promised when the came out in something like 1997-1998. It was no different in how they were marketed than ephedrine, creatine, NO2 or whatever.
It wasn't until Mark McGuire had it in his locker did any real questions come out about what this supplement supposedly did or does. Natural bodybuilders had no clue that they would be judged as doing something "wrong" in the minds of self-righteous people like TA 10 years later.
It's one thing for a natural to still be taking prohormones today AFTER the controversy and them being banned by organizations. It's another thing taking before all of this.
One knows they are doing something some would considered "wrong" and the other just ook the hot, new supplement on the market.
Steroids were ALWAYS banned from natural comp.
Adam, have you ever taken ephedra or ephedrine? Those are now banned form natural comps.
Would you consider someone who took ephedrine before it was banned to be a lying, cheating fraud claiming to be a natural TODAY?
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Interesting Perspective.
That tells me a few things in your decision of ProHormones when you used them. You really had no idea of the potency or lack thereof, so it wasn`t a "whats in the chemical criteria", but rather a legal one as you took them blindly on faith in the hopes of working well.
Also, if you had gotten a very good result, you would not consider yourself lifetime natural anymore? Is that your contention? So there is also a potency factor involved.
So if a Steroid user got zero gains from steroids, he too would or could be considered Natural Post and Pre 1990?
if someone bought fake UG steroids or some of Palumbo's "GH" they would still be natural. So I agree with him about the BS prohormones. It's not about intent in this case but rather about effect.
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No need for 10 posts on the subject TA, you have your side of it. Why did you use prohormones?
Never even once gave them a thought.
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Here's my take:
Pro-hormones were just another supplement sold in the stores making big promised when the came out in something like 1997-1998. It was no different in how they were marketed than ephedrine, creatine, NO2 or whatever.
It wasn't until Mark McGuire had it in his locker did any real questions come out about what this supplement supposedly did or does. Natural bodybuilders had no clue that they would be judged as doing something "wrong" in the minds of self-righteous people like TA 10 years later.
It's one thing for a natural to still be taking prohormones today AFTER the controversy and them being banned by organizations. It's another thing taking before all of this.
One knows they are doing something some would considered "wrong" and the other just ook the hot, new supplement on the market.
Steroids were ALWAYS banned from natural comp.
Adam, have you ever taken ephedra or ephedrine? Those are now banned form natural comps.
Would you consider someone who took ephedrine before it was banned to be a lying, cheating fraud claiming to be a natural TODAY?
So again,
Most view it as a legal conundrum rather than a Chemical one. That is your contention also. So by that definition Arnold Schwarzenegger was natural when he competed because he, like everyone else, was just simply taking "the hot new legal and available supplement" at the time.
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From what I understand, people obtained steroids(the hot and legal supplement) in the 70s, 80s and earlier from their gyms and Barbell Clubs and what have you.
The same place where many gym-goers today buy their supplements.
So the method of obtainment is the same with steroids then and with supplments now, so this should not be a factor. Correct?
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if someone bought fake UG steroids or some of Palumbo's "GH" they would still be natural. So I agree with him about the BS prohormones. It's not about intent in this case but rather about effect.
So if bodybuilder A takes a PROHormone at X dose and gets a 15 lb gain
and
Bodybuilder B takes a PROHormone at the same X Dose and gets a 0 lb gain
Bodybuilder A is not natural but Bodybuilder B is?
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isn't this like asking "if you commited an act before it became a crime are you guilty of that crime"? assuming ofcourse that the law is applied going forward only.
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Interesting Perspective.
That tells me a few things in your decision of ProHormones when you used them. You really had no idea of the potency or lack thereof, so it wasn`t a "whats in the chemical criteria", but rather a legal one as you took them blindly on faith in the hopes of working well.
Also, if you had gotten a very good result, you would not consider yourself lifetime natural anymore? Is that your contention? So there is also a potency factor involved.
So if a Steroid user got zero gains from steroids, he too would or could be considered Natural Post and Pre 1990?
Well..I did know the potency. I knew it SHOULD have given me a slight benefit. Much like the tribulus...or any of the other test products back then. If I would have gotten a great result I would have questioned if it truly was something that should be sold OTC.
As far as steroid user seeing zero results.....it would never happen. So, why bring that up. If they put fake shit in their body...then obviously they would be able to claim drug free....and idiot....but still drug free.
As far as procuring the drugs in a gym back in the day....they got it from dealers in the gym. You think they were on the wall and being sold as easily as protein powders?
Have to agree with what mwbb said though. When you know you are doing something wrong....you lilve with the consequences. I considered trying the prohormones again after a few years...found out they were banned...so I didnt. Also had to stop ephedrine and products like that.
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TA:
Are you making MORAL judgements or people or is this strictly PHYSICAL BODY OBSERVANCE judgements?
That will clear up everything.
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TA:
Are you making MORAL judgements or people or is this strictly PHYSICAL BODY OBSERVANCE judgements?
That will clear up everything.
I don`t see any drug as immoral. In fact, I think every single drug should be legalized with no criminal penalties from Cocaine to Steroids. People should be able to have the ability to put whatever they want into their bodies and also self-medicate. If they abuse it, then that is their own stupidity.
I am trying to make people question what it means to be natural is all.
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TA what was your reason for using PROHormones? Are you afraid of needles?
Do you consider yourself natural after using them? You never competed in BBing or any type of powerlifting, so what was your reason for using them?
:)
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isn't this like asking "if you commited an act before it became a crime are you guilty of that crime"? assuming ofcourse that the law is applied going forward only.
So by those standards Arnold Schwarzenegger was completely Natural then.
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It is a question that boggles the mind. How do they view one as being acceptable and the other not?
What was the criteria in their choice?
Insuline and hgh users are also lifetime naturals.
Adds about 20/30 pounds if you use them correctly.
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TA what was your reason for using PROHormones? Are you afraid of needles?
Do you consider yourself natural after using them? You never competed in BBing or any type of powerlifting, so what was your reason for using them?
:)
Never even considered using a Prohormone and yes I am afraid of needles.
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Insuline and hgh users are also lifetime naturals.
Adds about 20/30 pounds if you use them correctly.
Can someone take Insulin alone and gain muscle? Is it banned in competitions?
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Never even considered using a Prohormone and yes I am afraid of needles.
Maybe you should consider it.......
What's the fear of needles about? Was it a strange sexual fetish as a young adult that had you poking holes in your testes and posting videos on www.stileproject.com?
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I did it because I had no idea where to get the real thing. I'm not sure what you would call me as I would be honest with anyone asking me if I ever took anything. I took one and it was very detrimental to me to the point where I am back to less than square one so I got nothing out of it. I would explain to them what happened and let them make the determination. I don't consider PH's "natural" most certainly, however.
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Maybe you should consider it.......
What's the fear of needles about? Was it a strange sexual fetish as a young adult that had you poking holes in your testes and posting videos on www.stileproject.com?
I really don`t know why or where it comes from specifically. I get lightheaded even when I see a blood bank. I also can`t stand feeling or hearing a heart beat or feeling a pulse or someone grabbing my wrists.
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I did it because I had no idea where to get the real thing. I'm not sure what you would call me as I would be honest with anyone asking me if I ever took anything. I took one and it was very detrimental to me to the point where I am back to less than square one so I got nothing out of it. I would explain to them what happened and let them make the determination. I don't consider PH's "natural" most certainly, however.
Can you share your experience? A lot of people here claim they do nothing.
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I really don`t know why or where it comes from specifically. I get lightheaded even when I see a blood bank. I also can`t stand feeling or hearing a heart beat or feeling a pulse or someone grabbing my wrists.
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Therapy yet?
So you have never donated blood?
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:-\
Therapy yet?
So you have never donated blood?
Never. No need to now since it can be manufactured synthetically with your own cells.
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Can you share your experience? A lot of people here claim they do nothing.
It was discussed somewhat in-depth on here not too long ago. Suffice to say I gained some but lost everything and than some and have been shut down for going on a year, etc. Probably had some preexisting problems due to the supposed mildness of the ph. Anyway, I won't be doing it again. That is for certain.
Here's the thread:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=228223.0
disregard the last comment on there as the idiotic guy was quotting my before pics before I ever took anything.
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Never. No need to now since it can be manufactured synthetically with your own cells.
How do they get your cells?
Are you saving your $$ for a clone?
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How do they get your cells?
Are you saving your $$ for a clone?
Stem Cells.
Blood created out of stem cells
By Mitchell Hall | Thursday August 21 2008 - 04:11pm
(http://www.nbr.co.nz/files/article-images/stem_blood_cells.jpg)
Embryonic stem cells have been used for the first time to create blood, potentially leading to unlimited supplies of ‘universal’ type O-negative blood, prized for its versatility.
Robert Lanza, chief science officer at Advanced Cell Technologies, told Wired that, "We literally generated whole tubes in the lab, from scratch".
Matching blood types are usually required for transfusions as mismatches can be fatal – except in the case of type O-negative which can be used by anyone but is only present in approximately seven percent of humans, leaving stock short.
"The beautiful thing is that you start with one line, expand them indefinitely and generate as many as you want," said Lanza to Wired. "It's a literally inexhaustible source of cells for therapy."
The new technique’s safety however has yet to be proved in animals; let alone humans.
The research, published today in Blood, was conducted by devised by Lanza with colleagues at the Mayo Clinic and University of Illinois.
The Red Cross described the work as pioneering.
"At this stage, the work is very promising, but has not progressed to the stage where the cultured cells are fully equivalent" to natural cells, said the organization in a statement. "Much more work will yet be needed before this becomes a practical reality."
Safety is a key concern as embryonic stem cells can be unpredictable and develop genetic mutations during chemical reprogramming - with future side effects.
But if the process works it will be massively beneficial in places like emergency rooms and battlefields, where the need for type O-negative blood is acute and supplies are rare.
"There's always a great demand for type O blood," said Red Cross spokeswoman Molly Dalton to Wired. "It's always a worry that we don't have enough."
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5-10 Years and blood banks will be a thing of the past.
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Can someone take Insulin alone and gain muscle? Is it banned in competitions?
It is banned in all organizations. However it is undetectable so i can be used freely without fear.
And yes it is the most anabolic hormone in the body. You can easily gain 20 pounds in 2 months with proper nutrition.
However is you mess up your intake or food it can get you killed.
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Let's get something straight.
No one who takes gh, insulin, prohormones now, epheddrine now, steroids (of course) believe they are natural. Especially if they compete in contests.
So all you guys so worried about what other peole are doing, they don't think they are legitimae.
So this debate should end.
Now, why they lie is another question? Actually, that's probably a better question.
What do you guys think?
1. They don't want to admit doing criminal activity.
2. They don't want to admit cheating in a contest.
3. They don't want you to think they are "all drugs" becasue, in their mind, they work hard.
4. The truth is no one's business but their own.
5. They are worried about what their mommy and daddy might say.
6. They are worried about what their employer might say.
Why else?
And I might add I don't believe it it as common as TA, gh15 and other losers think. TA wants to believe that because he wants to think he is the "pinnacle" of being natural. gh15 does to increase drugs sales on getbig.com and justify his usage.
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Let's get something straight.
No one who takes gh, insulin, prohormones now, epheddrine now, steroids (of course) believe they are natural. Especially if they compete in contest.
So all you guys so worried about what other peole are doing, tehy don't think they are legitimae.
So this debate should end.
Now, why they lie is another question? Actually, that's probably a better question.
What do you guys think?
1. They don't want to admit doing criminal activity.
2. They don't want to admit cheating in a contest.
3. They don't want you to think they are "all drugs" becasue, in their mind, they work hard.
4. The truth is no one's business but their own.
5. They are worried about what their mommy and daddy might say.
6. They are worried about what their employer might say.
Why else?
And I might add I don't believe it it as common as TA, gh15 and other losers think. TA wants to believe that because he wants to think he is the "pinnacle" of being natural. gh15 does to increase drugs sales on getbig.com and justify his usage.
So when something was taken and rules implemented determine if one is natural. That is your contention via the above post.
So then Arnold Schwarzenegger was always Natural since what he took was legal and within the rules at the time.
Also, a "Natural" bodybuilder who took prohormones before they were considered under the Anabolic Steroid Act of 2004 is still Natural but a "Natural" bodybuilder taking the same Prohormones after 2004 is not natural even if they took the same Prohormone and same amount.
So yours is from a legal standpoint, not a chemical one also.
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Let's get something straight.
No one who takes gh, insulin, prohormones now, epheddrine now, steroids (of course) believe they are natural. Especially if they compete in contests.
So all you guys so worried about what other peole are doing, they don't think they are legitimae.
So this debate should end.
Now, why they lie is another question? Actually, that's probably a better question.
What do you guys think?
1. They don't want to admit doing criminal activity.
2. They don't want to admit cheating in a contest.
3. They don't want you to think they are "all drugs" becasue, in their mind, they work hard.
4. The truth is no one's business but their own.
5. They are worried about what their mommy and daddy might say.
6. They are worried about what their employer might say.
Why else?
And I might add I don't believe it it as common as TA, gh15 and other losers think. TA wants to believe that because he wants to think he is the "pinnacle" of being natural. gh15 does to increase drugs sales on getbig.com and justify his usage.
I don`t beleive I am the pinnacle of anything. No one person can ever hold that distinction in any field. There is no such thing.
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5-10 Years and blood banks will be a thing of the past.
How do they get your stem cells?
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It is banned in all organizations. However it is undetectable so i can be used freely without fear.
And yes it is the most anabolic hormone in the body. You can easily gain 20 pounds in 2 months with proper nutrition.
However is you mess up your intake or food it can get you killed.
Who has died that the coroner said was from abuse of insulin?
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How do they get your stem cells?
Stem Cells can be created from any cell in your body.
Here is something new!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7576131.stm
Stem cells 'created from teeth'
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44949000/jpg/_44949056_stemcells226.jpg)
Many religious groups object to using embryos for medical research
Japanese scientists say they have created human stem cells from tissue taken from the discarded wisdom teeth of a 10-year-old girl.
The researchers say their work suggests that wisdom teeth could be a suitable alternative to human embryos as a source for therapeutic stem cells.
Research involving stem cells is seen as having the potential to treat many life-threatening diseases.
But some people believe using human embryos is ethically controversial.
The researchers, based at the National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST), say it will be at least five years before their findings result in practical medical applications.
Dual benefit
Stem cells have the ability to develop into other kinds of human cells, and experts believe they may eventually lead to treatments for some of the most intractable conditions, such as cancer and diabetes.
The AIST researchers said they had identified a form of stem cell in the wisdom teeth which had the capability to develop and be grown successfully into other forms of cell outside the body.
The cells they harvested continued to grow in the laboratory for just over a month, they added.
The leader of the team, Hajime Ogushi, said the research was significant in two ways.
"One is that we can avoid the ethical issues of stem cells because wisdom teeth are destined to be thrown away anyway," he told the AFP news agency.
"Also, we used teeth that had been extracted three years ago and had been preserved in a freezer. That means that it's easy for us to stock this source of stem cells."
In the US, dentists are starting to offer to store stem cells taken from wisdom teeth and from baby teeth, another potential source, for therapeutic purposes in the future.
Last year, a team of US and Japanese scientists announced they had managed to produce stem cells from skin.
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Why is it so important to you how people classify themselves epsically when the lines are grey?
How does that affect you?
Why are you always on your soapbox?
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Who has died that the coroner said was from abuse of insulin?
Very hard to check indeed.
But inject yourself with 50 IU's of humalog/novorapid without food in the upcoming 30 mins and find out.
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Why is it so important to you how people classify themselves epsically when the lines are grey?
How does that affect you?
Why are you always on your soapbox?
Why is it an affront to you to have a meaningful debate and discussion?
I find other people`s opinions and justification of how they arrived at their point and contention rather intriguing.
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This is the way that I look at it. Pro-hormones have the ability to give you supraphysiological levels of androgens in your system. Except from perhaps a moral standpoint or a legal standpoint and varying degrees of efficacy, they are basically the same as anabolic steroids. So in using these substances one could not consider themselves truly natural. I believe that hormone boosting supplements like Tribulus and other herbal products can raise your hormone levels but they still will be within the normal range. Therefore I believe using those supplements would not endanger one's natural status.
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This is the way that I look at it. Pro-hormones have the ability to give you supraphysiological levels of androgens in your system. Except from perhaps a moral standpoint or a legal standpoint and varying degrees of efficacy, they are basically the same as anabolic steroids. So in using these substances one could not consider themselves truly natural. I believe that hormone boosting supplements like Tribulus and other herbal products can raise your hormone levels but they still will be within the normal range. Therefore I believe using those supplements would not endanger one's natural status.
VERY GOOD summary. I think a lot of PROHormone users have a strange justification of why they started using PROHormones in the first place but not steroids and also what they now refer to themselves having used a substance that is now classified the same as a steroid(which they avoided previously, but used the same justification for their PROHormone usage).
It is an interesting circumstance they have got themselves in.
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I must admit that I've become out of touch with regard to the supplement industry. To date, is there something you can buy in GNC that can actually make a significant difference in one's physique?
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So by those standards Arnold Schwarzenegger was completely Natural then.
No, he is/was a user of steroids before they became illegal.
Ragarding prohomes..a distinction can be made for people that used PH before they became illegal.
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No, he is/was a user of steroids before they became illegal.
Ragarding prohomes..a distinction can be made for people that used PH before they became illegal.
Why?
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VERY GOOD summary. I think a lot of PROHormone users have a strange justification of why they started using PROHormones in the first place but not steroids and also what they now refer to themselves having used a substance that is now classified the same as a steroid(which they avoided previously, but used the same justification for their PROHormone usage).
It is an interesting circumstance they have got themselves in.
First of all, I wouldn't make the assumption that most Pro-hormone users have the knowledge to know what they are actually ingesting. They may have just read that these are "food supplements" that supposedly give steroid like effects. They also probably figure that the fact that they are legal and are sold in health food stores that they probably are nothing like real steroids. The truth is whenever someone takes a testosterone molecule and alters it, they have created a steroid. Some are more potent than others, but they are still chemically classified as steroids. The original legal loophole used by the Pro-hormone manufacturers was that the hormones were inactive and required enzymes in the human body to activate them into the actual steroid compounds. Then when these substances were made illegal, the supplement companies found that progesterone based hormones were not on the banned list. So now there are several products on the market that are classified as Progestins and for the time being are still legal. Example of progestin based real steroids would be Nandrolone(deca) and trenbolone derivatives. So the average clueless gym guy (or top level "Natural" competitor) can say, "Hey Bro, I'm all natural. I just take this Superdrol stuff I get at GNC."
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Adam,
I just saw this post now. And I'd like to give an answer as I think this question maybe pretty much intended for me since you and I talked about this the other day and there was the whole post about it.
Here's the deal,
1. Have I ever taken Pro Hormones and what did I take? Yes I took pro-hormones a few years back, I did 2 andro cycles (don't remember which ones to be honest), and I did one cylce of M1-T. I didn't feel anything special from the Andro, but the M1-T, OH MY GOD YES, THAT SHIT WORKS, no ifs ands or buts. Is it as potent as real anabolic steroids? absoloutely not and this is based on many people who I know who took both? But M1-T works and works GOOOOD! Have I ever taken anabolic steroids out of the pro-hormone classification? No I have not.
2. Why did I do pro-hormones but not steroids? It was a combination of many things, a) a legal stand point, in that I could walk into a GNC and buy this stuff without being jumped by DEA lol, b) a competitive stand-point in that the organizations I competed in allowed it as long as my T/E ratios did not get effected, because if I faild a urinalysis due to Andro or M1-T or even Tribulus there was no re-test and no excuses, I wasn't competing, so I did it in the off-season and it was allowed. c) a sort of Moral dillemma thinking that I was doing the right thing by not breaking the law and injecting things into my body!
3. Do I still consider myself a lifetime natural? Yes I do, everyone's definition of natural is different, and I consider myself natural because to me natural is not taking Anabolic steroids, GH, Insulin, etc. And the organizations I compete in, as well as 99% of natural organizations consider me a lifetime natural. Many of you will jump on me and say that I'm not natural, and thats fine, your definition of natural is different than mine, and it makes no sense to argue about it, because I don't blame you for how you feel at the same time I'm going by what the organizations I compete in allow.
The fact that people say pro-hormones are steroids is PURE bullshit, any juicer who has tried both will tell you that, there is a BIIIIG THICK LINE separating the two, and in no way are pro-hormones are potent as the real thing. Again, this does not mean that they are not potent or do not work, its just different.
4. Would I ever juice or even taken pro-hormones again? See to me it is no longer a legal issue. I live in Egypt and here REAL ANABOLIC STEROIDS are PERFECTLY and 100% legal and really cheap, I can walk into any pharmacy and buy it, no prescription needed, no questions asked, no DEA jumping my ass, nothing at all, I can have a 10 year old kid go pick it up for me and there would be no problems at all. But I chose not to go down that route, I want to stay natural, and to be honest I'm not even sure why I made that decision, but I see it as almost a challenge to myself, I've gotten this far naturally, how much further can I get naturally, I think I'm still young (25) so I still have plenty of time to put on more size, maybe I'm wrong and I'm doomed to be stuck at this same weight/look/size, but I will give it a fighting shot and bust my ass to see where I can go from here, and wherever that takes me I'm pretty sure I won't have any regrets about never juicing.
Would I ever take pro-hormones again? NO! I wouldn't, not because of the side effects, or because i think they are steroids and I feel that I'm being a hypocrit, I'm not gonna take them again because natural competition rules and regulations are constantly changing, everyday I am seeing more and more substances being added, and I don't want to make the mistake of taking something that may get me disqualified after I bust my ass for 16-18 weeks getting ready for a show, the gains are not that worth it to me.
Some people may not understand where I'm coming from and may call me a hypocrit, but honestly I don't blame you for feeling this way, as I said I'm going on what I believe is the definition of a natural and what the organizations that I compete in believe. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here!
Oh I also took Tribulus once, dunno if that is considered a Pro-hormone or a natural test booster, but I didn't feel anything although I did read that it will mess up your T/E ratios in a urinalysis!
Hope that makes sense, and if you want me to go into more details just ask and I'll share, I see a lot of people that will take shit and try to hide it, but I think thats stupid! That is what I did!
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So if bodybuilder A takes a PROHormone at X dose and gets a 15 lb gain
and
Bodybuilder B takes a PROHormone at the same X Dose and gets a 0 lb gain
Bodybuilder A is not natural but Bodybuilder B is?
no I'm not talking about low responders I'm talking about crappy supplements. I think most everything that is sold in GNC is useless including the prohormones creatine and protein. I guess someone mentioned M1T and apparently there were stronger pro-hormones towards the end of their legal sale. SO using your notation it would be:
So if bodybuilders 1-1000 takes PROHormone A at X dose and get a 0 lb gain
and
Bodybuilders 1001-2000 takes a PROHormone B at the same X Dose and get a 15 lb gain
Bodybuilders 1-1000 are natural and 1001-2000 are not natural.
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I've had a strikingly similar conversation with a friend recently. A question I asked him was what if creatine became a banned substance? Would everyone who took it not be considered natural any more. I also asked this question of him, several natural BB organizations like the NANBF (http://www.nanbf.org/BannedSubstances/2007_NANBF_Banned_Substances_List.pdf) say that any substance banned by the FDA is banned in that organization. Back in 1991 Tryptophan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan) was banned by the FDA so I joked with him that I wasn't natural because I took some tryptophan to help me get to sleep in 1986. There have been supplements that were taken off the market because non-bodybuilders were abusing them or using them for illicit purposes like making street drugs. I guess if you want to claim natural for life you better just stick with food and not take anything that could be banned or pulled from the market in the future for any reason.
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It is an interesting circumstance they have got themselves in.
Hmmm. TA, you say you don't much care people use or not, but then make morally telling pronouncements like the above. ???
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Twice as toxic, half the results.
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The fact that people say pro-hormones are steroids is PURE bullshit, any juicer who has tried both will tell you that, there is a BIIIIG THICK LINE separating the two, and in no way are pro-hormones are potent as the real thing. Again, this does not mean that they are not potent or do not work, its just different.
No, what you're saying is bullshit. The term pro-hormone was invented by the supplement companies. The term pro-steroid was even more ridiculous. You took anabolic steroids. Period.
Read this:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37726
Lots of juicers will tell you M1T is stronger than any illegal steroid they've tired.
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Whatever one does with their body, or whatever they take is their business. What's the difference if they've taken a pro hormone before or if they've taken a AS. Everyone that's in the gym has a different goal in mind and their own version of what they'd like to look like. I don't understand how the same people claim that pro hormones do not work, and on the other hand they say if someone makes some gains (albeit small), "you're not natural...you took pro hormones". It's their money, let them waste it if they want. If they've made gains from it, well good for them.
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Hmmm. TA, you say you don't much care people use or not, but then make morally telling pronouncements like the above. ???
I am just the curious man looking at it from the outside, I am not the furious man on the inside. It makes for great observation sociologically as well as psychologically. All substances should be legal and available for consumption without any fear of criminality in my opinion. The ability to self-medicate on a whim should be available to all. If people and their stupidity does cause an accident, so be it. The burden falls on ignorance. Education and accurate research regarding any substance should also be freely available and easily accessible.
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No, what you're saying is bullshit. The term pro-hormone was invented by the supplement companies. The term pro-steroid was even more ridiculous. You took anabolic steroids. Period.
Read this:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37726
Lots of juicers will tell you M1T is stronger than any illegal steroid they've tired.
Why do you think people separate the two when the practical definition and chemical profile of both would be considered both as Conventional Anabolic Steroids?
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Adonis, just to make sure that we are using the same terms please define
1. ProHormones
2. Steriods (Anabolic)
3. Being natural
4. Being clean
5. If someone eat diary/meat products of animal feed steroids..what is his status in your opinion?
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Adonis, just to make sure that we are using the same terms please define
1. ProHormones
2. Steriods (Anabolic)
3. Being natural
4. Being clean
5. If someone eat diary/meat products of animal feed steroids..what is his status in your opinion?
1. Prohormones: are steroids
2. Steroids: anything synthetically manufactured or naturally occurring that raises your Testosterone levels above and beyond normal ranges for a sustainable duration due to whatever is ingested or injected.
3. Being Natural: No usage of number 1 or 2.
4.Being Clean: Prior usage of number 1 or 2.
5.Meat and Dairy products while animal is on rGh, etc..: Number 3, Natural as this will not have a significant effect of raising Testosterone levels above normal for a lengthy duration.
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TA have you ever taken ephedrine?
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that is the basis on which you claim people are not natural.
simply put - they are better than you therefore there is no way they can be natural.
I don`t beleive I am the pinnacle of anything. No one person can ever hold that distinction in any field. There is no such thing.
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the "steroid like effects" of pro-hormones is somewhat exaggerated by advertisements etc..
This is the way that I look at it. Pro-hormones have the ability to give you supraphysiological levels of androgens in your system. Except from perhaps a moral standpoint or a legal standpoint and varying degrees of efficacy, they are basically the same as anabolic steroids. So in using these substances one could not consider themselves truly natural. I believe that hormone boosting supplements like Tribulus and other herbal products can raise your hormone levels but they still will be within the normal range. Therefore I believe using those supplements would not endanger one's natural status.
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Until you actually qualify what makes someone "natural", discussions like this are basically pointless.
I mentioned this a few weeks ago; but some people think that ANYTHING that you consume, other than regular food, takes you out of the "natural" category.
Some of you may remember my story about the two college freshmen football players. For those who haven't heard it, basically one guy was putting something into his shaker bottle and having it with lunch. When his gridiron buddy joined him and saw what he was doing, he bascially said, "I don't mess with that @&^#. That #&@^ make your nuts shrink".
My guess is that he was referring to anabolic steroids, when referencing the whole testicular atrophy thing. The problem (thus the reason for my nearly spitting out my food in laughter) is that the substance the one player was drinking was......JOE WEIDER'S SUGAR-FREE BIG weight gainer.
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Until you actually qualify what makes someone "natural", discussions like this are basically pointless.
I mentioned this a few weeks ago; but some people think that ANYTHING that you consume, other than regular food, takes you out of the "natural" category.
Some of you may remember my story about the two college freshmen football players. For those who haven't heard it, basically one guy was putting something into his shaker bottle and having it with lunch. When his gridiron buddy joined him and saw what he was doing, he bascially said, "I don't mess with that @&^#. That #&@^ make your nuts shrink".
My guess is that he was referring to anabolic steroids, when referencing the whole testicular atrophy thing. The problem (thus the reason for my nearly spitting out my food in laughter) is that the substance the one player was drinking was......JOE WEIDER'S SUGAR-FREE BIG weight gainer.
1. Prohormones: are steroids
2. Steroids: anything synthetically manufactured or naturally occurring that raises your Testosterone levels above and beyond normal ranges for a sustainable duration due to whatever is ingested or injected.
3. Being Natural: No usage of number 1 or 2.
4.Being Clean: Prior usage of number 1 or 2.
5.Meat and Dairy products while animal is on rGh, etc..: Number 3, Natural as this will not have a significant effect of raising Testosterone levels above normal for a lengthy duration.
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1. Prohormones: are steroids
2. Steroids: anything synthetically manufactured or naturally occurring that raises your Testosterone levels above and beyond normal ranges for a sustainable duration due to whatever is ingested or injected.
3. Being Natural: No usage of number 1 or 2.
4.Being Clean: Prior usage of number 1 or 2.
5.Meat and Dairy products while animal is on rGh, etc..: Number 3, Natural as this will not have a significant effect of raising Testosterone levels above normal for a lengthy duration.
By that definition, people can take substances (drugs) to help them gain mass that DO NOT affect their testosterone levels, yet still be called "natural".
That would even include Synthol.
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By that definition, people can take substances (drugs) to help them gain mass that DO NOT affect their testosterone levels, yet still be called "natural".
That would even include Synthol.
I wouldn`t consider Synthol as cheating when all it does is make one look regressively worse. You would have to be a fool to use it in the first place and it never has looked pleasing on anybody.
Same thing with implants or wearing a muscle rubber suit. All are absurd.
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I wouldn`t consider Synthol as cheating when all it does is make one look regressively worse. You would have to be a fool to use it in the first place and it never has looked pleasing on anybody.
Same thing with implants or wearing a muscle rubber suit. All are absurd.
I'm not disagreeing with you on that one. My point was that it's been well-documented that many bodybuilders take certain substances that (to many) would knock them out of the "natural" category, which don't necessarily involve their testosterone levels.
Plus, whether prohormones are steroids or not is STILL subject to debate. So, to answer your question, there are some whose have (for lack of a better term) "liberal" definition of natural (i.e. they'll take anything but steroids and substance like Clenbuterol, GH, or insulin).
As I stated, when someone asked if I was a "natty", anything I take besides regular food can be easily purchased at your average nutrition store (GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, etc.). By your definition, I wouldn't be a "natty", because of the supplements I currently use, namely Vitamin Shoppe's Python and Natrol's DHEA, which I got at the grocery store, while buying some more chicken and yams.
Nor, would you consider me natural, based on my use of androstendione and norandrostendione in the late 90s.
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TA have you ever taken ephedrine?
did you answer this?
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did you answer this?
Hey True Adonis. I'll assume you are just missing this so I'll ask you again.
Have you ever taken ephedrine or ephedra?
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Hey True Adonis. I'll assume you are just missing this so I'll ask you again.
Have you ever taken ephedrine or ephedra?
Mau Huang and it is not necessary at all given enough time.
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Mau Huang and it is not necessary at all given enough time.
And even then, it is still pretty much useless.
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Did them because I wanted to get bigger and andro was legal at the time.yes they did work.stopped years ago when I started to find out about how bad they can be for you.