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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: MindSpin on September 05, 2008, 10:11:41 AM
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Who can decipher this?
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I don't know, but they better speak on it very soon, or risk losing most of the Getbig vote!!! ::)
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I don't know, but they better speak on it very soon, or risk losing most of the Getbig vote!!! ::)
lol
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obama will fvck you.
Mccain will let you slide.
you live in Cali, so your state is going to Obama anyway.
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Is this chart supposedly correct?
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4
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That is an awfully lot if you make more than 2.9 million... DRASTIC change... I mean... you're talking about another what? 35% of your salary?
Holy shit.
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Thanks Rob! So those are supposedly correct then?
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4
shouldnt the lower income get the biggest break
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That is an awfully lot if you make more than 2.9 million... DRASTIC change... I mean... you're talking about another what? 35% of your salary?
Holy shit.
No doubt. And how about people that make 5 million or 20 million or more? Seems pretty unfair.
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That is an awfully lot if you make more than 2.9 million... DRASTIC change... I mean... you're talking about another what? 35% of your salary?
Holy shit.
Yep. Those are the folks really affected my Mccain's cuts, and doing everything possible to convince all of use at 200k or below that we're screwed too.
The more you look at this chart, the more is makes sense. Of course Rush is against Obama... he'll cost him millions off his $40 mil annual salary.
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I don't know, but they better speak on it very soon, or risk losing most of the Getbig vote!!! ::)
haha
Some of us make over 2.9 Mil and still choose to live in our parents basement. Livin da dream baby!
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Yep. Those are the folks really affected my Mccain's cuts, and doing everything possible to convince all of use at 200k or below that we're screwed too.
The more you look at this chart, the more is makes sense. Of course Rush is against Obama... he'll cost him millions off his $40 mil annual salary.
Seems unfair don't you think?
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Ron Paul was the man when it came to taxes.
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Yep. Those are the folks really affected my Mccain's cuts, and doing everything possible to convince all of use at 200k or below that we're screwed too.
and obama doing all he can to say that he will help much more than mccain when in reality it will be at most a couple hundred bucks and that doesnt take into account how a raise in capital gains tax will effect individuals.
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shouldnt the lower income get the biggest break
No. They hardly pay any taxes.
As things currently stand the top 50 percent of income earners carry 97 percent of the tax burden.
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Seems unfair don't you think?
Extremely.
Ron Paul was the man when it came to taxes.
Do you have any chart that would show his proposed plan?
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Extremely.
Do you have any chart that would show his proposed plan?
You don't need a chart.
He wants to abolish the income tax and replace it with a consumption tax.
http://www.fairtax.org (http://www.fairtax.org)
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You don't need a chart.
He wants to abolish the income tax and replace it with a consumption tax.
http://www.fairtax.org (http://www.fairtax.org)
Thank you for the link!
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absolutely unfair to tax those who make more.
then again, most CEOs pay less in taxes than their secreateies.
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then again, most CEOs pay less in taxes than their secreateies.
???
Is this another Political Board inside joke.....I'm not inside :(
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4
Thanks for the heads up Stella. So Rob, if I'm reading this right, there is no tax increase for $226-603k under Obama but a decrease under McCain?
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Thanks for the heads up Stella. So Rob, if I'm reading this right, there is no tax increase for $226-603k under Obama but a decrease under McCain?
Correct. But, obama is going to flirt with cap gains taxes and a few other things, so Mccain is probably your man, if only marginally. Then again, one could argue Obama will stop the war borrowing, which will restore the dollars' strength (it's down 41% against Euro since bush took office).
If every dollar you own is suddenly worth 41% more in world value, then you may love Obama.
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That is an awfully lot if you make more than 2.9 million... DRASTIC change... I mean... you're talking about another what? 35% of your salary?
Holy shit.
They prolly pay piss all in tax if they make that much, they're brilliant to get to that level.
The tax haven Carib is 20 - 60 mins flight away to east coast USA. They base their businesses in the islands [on paper only] then semi-commute to the USA.
Check where many rich pols are tax domiciled - Bloomberg caught heat in the NY election for it, Perot, even good old Fox News down here as well. About 75% of Fortune 500s use the Carib to evade taxes legally, and numerous ppl. Check google. I could tell stories for days about what I see with my own eyes, but no one will believe me most likely.
Is why the irony strikes me at the wealthy repubs preaching patriotism, as they jet off like fiends to avoid tax and have for decades.
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Correct. But, obama is going to flirt with cap gains taxes and a few other things, so Mccain is probably your man, if only marginally. Then again, one could argue Obama will stop the war borrowing, which will restore the dollars' strength (it's down 41% against Euro since bush took office).
If every dollar you own is suddenly worth 41% more in world value, then you may love Obama.
Also a valid point... If the US dollar almost doubles, your net worth could be seen as basically twice what it was.
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???
Is this another Political Board inside joke.....I'm not inside :(
Nope it's true.
Don't fault the CEO. Blame the system.
Ten percent consumption tax across the board.
Everyone pays the same percentage regardless of income.
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They prolly pay piss all in tax if they make that much, they're brilliant to get to that level.
The tax haven Carib is 20 - 60 mins flight away to east coast USA. They base their businesses in the islands [on paper only] then semi-commute to the USA.
Check where many rich pols are tax domiciled - Bloomberg caught heat in the NY election for it, Perot, even good old Fox News down here as well. About 75% of Fortune 500s use the Carib to evade taxes legally, and numerous ppl. Check google. I could tell stories for days about what I see with my own eyes, but no one will believe me most likely.
Is why the irony strikes me at the wealthy repubs preaching patriotism, as they jet off like fiends to avoid tax and have for decades.
Sooo.... it's Patriotic to pay income taxes?
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Sooo.... it's Patriotic to pay income taxes?
I don't care recall, they subside my lifestyle. In fact I love it more than words can express. Seriously.
And my main point is, the mega wealthy pay a far lower tax than it appears on paper. You got 15 odd islands that literally exist as legal evasion, it's big business.
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Nope it's true.
Don't fault the CEO. Blame the system.
Ten percent consumption tax across the board.
Everyone pays the same percentage regardless of income.
It's not true in my case. I paid triple in taxes last year vs. what I pay my admin.
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It's not true in my case. I paid triple in taxes last year vs. what I pay my admin.
Are you the exception or the rule?
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Are you the exception or the rule?
I don't think it's a rule.
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I don't think it's a rule.
Like I said... which are you?
Or is there not one at all, in either direction?
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Like I said... which are you?
Or is there not one at all, in either direction?
If you take three then it doesn't work at all...
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They prolly pay piss all in tax if they make that much, they're brilliant to get to that level.
The tax haven Carib is 20 - 60 mins flight away to east coast USA. They base their businesses in the islands [on paper only] then semi-commute to the USA.
Check where many rich pols are tax domiciled - Bloomberg caught heat in the NY election for it, Perot, even good old Fox News down here as well. About 75% of Fortune 500s use the Carib to evade taxes legally, and numerous ppl. Check google. I could tell stories for days about what I see with my own eyes, but no one will believe me most likely.
Is why the irony strikes me at the wealthy repubs preaching patriotism, as they jet off like fiends to avoid tax and have for decades.
Not everyone does this but it would be interesting to know the percentage of people who do.
Nope it's true.
Not true in many, many people's cases.
Ten percent consumption tax across the board.
Everyone pays the same percentage regardless of income.
An interesting thought ...I wonder if it could really work
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No. They hardly pay any taxes.
As things currently stand the top 50 percent of income earners carry 97 percent of the tax burden.
True.
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shouldnt the lower income get the biggest break
The lowest income segment pays almost no taxes.
Why should they be getting any break?
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The lowest income segment pays almost no taxes.
Why should they be getting any break?
Exactly. By virtue of the fact that the poor earn little income, they pay little taxes. For those of you who are mathematically challenged, think of it like this:
If someone earns $100,000 per year and they pay 35% income tax, that comes to $35,000.
If someone earns $1 million per year and they too pay 35% in income tax, it comes to $350,000!
Even though they are paying the same percentage, the millionaire paid 10 times as much as the guy making $100k.
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Sooo.... it's Patriotic to pay income taxes?
Absolutely. It is damn near treasonous not to support our country by paying our taxes.
I saw you posted a link to the Fair Tax.
Don't you think that this push for a flat tax in the interest of fairness is just a little simplistic?
I agree with Ron Paul on several things, especially Iraq, but he does not know a damn thing about taxation. The Fair Tax is an unworkable mess that, strangely enough, will benefit the wealthy tax avoiders of this country.
Fairness? Life's not fair. That's a cliche but true. Think of how incompetently stupid the average person is and remember that half the people are dumber than that. Also remember that the world needs the minimum wage worker to work--who'll clean the sewers, make your coffee, pick your damn fruit?
The Fair Flat Tax by definition is a massive tax cut for the wealthy and tax increase for the poor.
Remember, the poor pay the same FICA/FUTA, sales and use taxes the rich pay. The income tax is graded and the rich have not stopped whining about it yet.
Is 23% of 2 million salary the same as 23% for some Joe LunchBucket making 25k a year? No. In fact the comparison is ridiculous. Let's see someone get by on 19K a year after that tax. God forbid JL has children.
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If someone earns $100,000 per year and they pay 35% income tax, that comes to $35,000.
If someone earns $1 million per year and they too pay 35% in income tax, it comes to $350,000!
Even though they are paying the same percentage, the millionaire paid 10 times as much as the guy making $100k.
This is the impression I'm under too. Are Mindspring and I misunderstanding the concept that makes people say that the secretary pays more taxes than the CEO?
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Mindspring
>:(
:D
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>:(
:D
;D ;D
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Absolutely. It is damn near treasonous not to support our country by paying our taxes.
Taxes are necessary. However, I think a tax on income (the profit from OUR hard work) is wrong.
I saw you posted a link to the Fair Tax.
Don't you think that this push for a flat tax in the interest of fairness is just a little simplistic?
I agree with Ron Paul on several things, especially Iraq, but he does not know a damn thing about taxation. The Fair Tax is an unworkable mess that, strangely enough, will benefit the wealthy tax avoiders of this country.
I'm sure you're familiar with the KISS principal: Keep It Simple Stupid. That's what a consumption or flat tax is. It's straight forward and simple enough for everyone to understand. No loopholes. No tax lawyers. No cheating the system.
Fairness? Life's not fair. That's a cliche but true. Think of how incompetently stupid the average person is and remember that half the people are dumber than that. Also remember that the world needs the minimum wage worker to work--who'll clean the sewers, make your coffee, pick your damn fruit?
The Fair Flat Tax by definition is a massive tax cut for the wealthy and tax increase for the poor.
Remember, the poor pay the same FICA/FUTA, sales and use taxes the rich pay. The income tax is graded and the rich have not stopped whining about it yet.
Is 23% of 2 million salary the same as 23% for some Joe LunchBucket making 25k a year? No. In fact the comparison is ridiculous. Let's see someone get by on 19K a year after that tax. God forbid JL has children.
Fair is what you pay to ride the bus, Decker. ;)
I respectfully disagree that a flat tax is a tax increase on the poor. Everyone pays the same percentage regardless of income or pays a consumption tax on what they buy. The sweet thing about an indirect tax like the consumption tax is that I can choose not to purchase a taxed item and we, the people, control how much money our incompetent government gets their grubby hands on. Now, in respect to a flat tax (and as Mindspin posted earlier) if the flat tax is 10 percent and I make 100k I'm going to pay more in taxes than a person making 10k. In the end those that make more still pay more. There is also no resentment towards the system when you're successful since your percentage doesn't go up like it does now. IMO, the current progressive tax system is unfair and wrong and (IMO) immoral. I would also of course agree to ZERO deductions. No write offs, no tax credits, nada, zilch, squat.
Everyone does their part. Everyone lifts the burden equally (percentage wise). No more politics of envy.
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Taxes are necessary. However, I think a tax on income (the profit from OUR hard work) is wrong.
Why?
I'm sure you're familiar with the KISS principal: Keep It Simple Stupid. That's what a consumption or flat tax is. It's straight forward and simple enough for everyone to understand. No loopholes. No tax lawyers. No cheating the system.
I understand your point. Clarity and simplicity are not concepts celebrated by the IRS or DOL.
Fair is what you pay to ride the bus, Decker. ;)
I think defining fairness in the tax arena should be done in terms of ability to pay.
I respectfully disagree that a flat tax is a tax increase on the poor. Everyone pays the same percentage regardless of income or pays a consumption tax on what they buy. The sweet thing about an indirect tax like the consumption tax is that I can choose not to purchase a taxed item and we, the people, control how much money our incompetent government gets their grubby hands on. Now, in respect to a flat tax (and as Mindspin posted earlier) if the flat tax is 10 percent and I make 100k I'm going to pay more in taxes than a person making 10k. In the end those that make more still pay more. There is also no resentment towards the system when you're successful since your percentage doesn't go up like it does now. IMO, the current progressive tax system is unfair and wrong and (IMO) immoral. I would also of course agree to ZERO deductions. No write offs, no tax credits, nada, zilch, squat.
Everyone does their part. Everyone lifts the burden equally (percentage wise). No more politics of envy.
As far as income tax is concerned, the poor pay nothing or 10% taxes. All national sales tax/fair tax proposals I've seen claim at least a 23% rate (which is really 30% and likely a lot higher but that's another story) of taxation. I've seen the magical 'prebates' to the poor but it's never said how they'll be paid for. 30% is a much higher tax than zero percent. (I don't believe that a zero tax burden is good b/c it disenfranchises the poor).
Mindspin's explanation of a flat tax is fine it doesn't show me anything. Everyone already pays the same tax rate at the same tax bracket in our progressive graded tax scale:
2008 Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Single Married Filing Jointly
10% Not over $8,025 Not over $16,050
15% $8,025 - $32,550 $16,050 - $65,100
25% $32,550 - $78,850 $65,100 - $131,450
28% $78,850 - $164,550 $131,450 - $200,300
33% $164,550 - $357,700 $200,300 - $357,700
35% Over $357,700 Over $357,700
The higher tax bracket applies only to the dollars earned in that bracket and not the gross amount. In other words, we do pay the same rates, it's just that as one earns more, he pays more tax.
There is a wisdom in basing a tax system on the ability to pay. You don't have your grandma move your barbells to the attic b/c it's her turn to clean the basement and you don't have the working poor pay the same income tax rate as those making $360,000 a year.
A national sales/consumption tax is a horrible idea for many reasons: a giant black market would spring up over night, Foreign business would prosper b/c people would forgo the US's 23%(30+%) sales tax rate in favor of Canada or Mexico's rate. Here's an insulting website that sums up the facts about a national sales tax very well http://www.fair-tax.org/NST.html#Neutral
The fair tax #s do not add up.
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Absolutely. It is damn near treasonous not to support our country by paying our taxes.
I saw you posted a link to the Fair Tax.
Don't you think that this push for a flat tax in the interest of fairness is just a little simplistic?
I agree with Ron Paul on several things, especially Iraq, but he does not know a damn thing about taxation. The Fair Tax is an unworkable mess that, strangely enough, will benefit the wealthy tax avoiders of this country.
Fairness? Life's not fair. That's a cliche but true. Think of how incompetently stupid the average person is and remember that half the people are dumber than that. Also remember that the world needs the minimum wage worker to work--who'll clean the sewers, make your coffee, pick your damn fruit?
The Fair Flat Tax by definition is a massive tax cut for the wealthy and tax increase for the poor.
Remember, the poor pay the same FICA/FUTA, sales and use taxes the rich pay. The income tax is graded and the rich have not stopped whining about it yet.
Is 23% of 2 million salary the same as 23% for some Joe LunchBucket making 25k a year? No. In fact the comparison is ridiculous. Let's see someone get by on 19K a year after that tax. God forbid JL has children.
No way paying income taxes is "patriotic".
Hell, this country didn't have an income tax for 150 years... In a capitalist society, there's nothing Patriotic about "giving away" your money.
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Why?
Because it's my personal opinion that the profits of my labor belong to me - not the government. Our country existed for a very long time without income tax. We need to get back to our roots. There are other (better) ways for the government to raise revenue. It's my opinion that taxing our income is not one of them.
I understand your point. Clarity and simplicity are not concepts celebrated by the IRS or DOL.
No argument there, buddy.
I think defining fairness in the tax arena should be done in terms of ability to pay.
I think it's wrong to penalize someone for success. I think it only encourages those that are tempted to cheat the system.
As far as income tax is concerned, the poor pay nothing or 10% taxes. All national sales tax/fair tax proposals I've seen claim at least a 23% rate (which is really 30% and likely a lot higher but that's another story) of taxation. I've seen the magical 'prebates' to the poor but it's never said how they'll be paid for. 30% is a much higher tax than zero percent. (I don't believe that a zero tax burden is good b/c it disenfranchises the poor).
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All the arguments I've heard and read claim that the poor (I don't know what the income level is) would be exempt from paying a consumption tax. I have not researched it enough to know how they claim to get the rebates back to the poor. I think the percentage of taxation can be negotiated. In the end I think a more simplistic system that everyone understands is better than the bureaucratic crapfest we have now.
Mindspin's explanation of a flat tax is fine it doesn't show me anything. Everyone already pays the same tax rate at the same tax bracket in our progressive graded tax scale:
2008 Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Single Married Filing Jointly
10% Not over $8,025 Not over $16,050
15% $8,025 - $32,550 $16,050 - $65,100
25% $32,550 - $78,850 $65,100 - $131,450
28% $78,850 - $164,550 $131,450 - $200,300
33% $164,550 - $357,700 $200,300 - $357,700
35% Over $357,700 Over $357,700
The higher tax bracket applies only to the dollars earned in that bracket and not the gross amount. In other words, we do pay the same rates, it's just that as one earns more, he pays more tax.
There is a wisdom in basing a tax system on the ability to pay. You don't have your grandma move your barbells to the attic b/c it's her turn to clean the basement and you don't have the working poor pay the same income tax rate as those making $360,000 a year.
A national sales/consumption tax is a horrible idea for many reasons: a giant black market would spring up over night, Foreign business would prosper b/c people would forgo the US's 23%(30+%) sales tax rate in favor of Canada or Mexico's rate. Here's an insulting website that sums up the facts about a national sales tax very well http://www.fair-tax.org/NST.html#Neutral
The fair tax #s do not add up.
Sorry, bud, but I still disagree on moral principles. It's my opinion that in a flat tax system if everyone pays the same percentage then the system is fair. If I have more money in my pocket that's more for me to purchase items and invest in the market. It's not like the rich keep all their money in burlap sacks under their floor boards - they spend it. That money ends up in the cash registers of small business owners which then makes it into the pockets of the people they employ. When we have a system that penalizes people and robs them of their discretionary funds they'll find ways to hide it from the government. Especially when people have little trust for their government due to it's poor handling of the economy and it's poor ability to manage what social programs we have.
Thanks for the link, Decker. I'll give it a look over.