Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: boonstack on September 26, 2008, 08:51:04 AM
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we all saw what happened to Luke Wood in 3 weeks. Didnt Frank Zane have a few issues too
Whatever happened to good ol DNP ::)
t3 = cytomel
t4 = triacana
Reports say a beginner should use t4 to become "accustomed" to t3, but it is a much weaker and compound. I dont think its as easy to find either.
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how is t3 and t4 exotic?
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Yeah t3/t4 are hardly exotic. You don't to be a fucking biochemist to use these drugs. But many old timers have fucked up their thyroid by abusing them. I'm sure a lot of pros will be on some sort of thyroid replacement for the rest of their lives aka Yates.
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Cytomel.
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Don't go over 100Mcg/day
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thats t3
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Internet bullshit. The thyroid is quite resilient.
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Internet bullshit. The thyroid is quite resilient.
Yes so is the liver, the heart, the testicles etc. But when you cross a line there is a point of no return.
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its hard to kill your thyroid with t3 or t4 contrary to the myths you hear.
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Provide ONE example of someone who has permanently shut down their thyroid by using t3. :)
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Whats t4?
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Provide ONE example of someone who has permanently shut down their thyroid by using t3. :)
Yates and Zane are on permanent thryoid replacement therapy. There are a few others I was told as well from the 70's who are as well.
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Provide ONE example of someone who has permanently shut down their thyroid by using t3. :)
exactly, the problem is tbombz, seems to be a lack of bear dads, so many cubs wondering around aimlessly now days not knowing what is what without a teacher..
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Yates and Zane are on permanent thryoid replacement therapy. There are a few others I was told as well from the 70's who are as well.
Give me some proof of that claim. ;)
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Don't go over 100Mcg/day
big pros are ussually in the 300 micrograms range .. ask around ...get a clue
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Give me some proof of that claim. ;)
None will be provided. People just spit out bullshit as if it's truth! The beauty of the Internets ;D
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I don't think there's ever been a reported case of thyroid not returning to normal operation within 4 weeks of discontinuing t3 use. I've never experienced any crazy side effects with it, going up to 125mcg/day
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(for full text = http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=344199 )
It has been over 100 years since the discovery by Magnus-Levy that thyroid hormones play a central role in energy homeostasis, and 75 years since the hormones were first used for weight loss. Despite this great length of time, the precise mechanisms by which thyroid hormones exert their calorigenic effect are not completely characterized, and still actively debated. Despite numerous clinical studies having shown that the administration of thyroid hormone induces weight loss, it is not currently indicated as a weight loss agent. This is probably due to the number of side effects observed during thyroid hormone use at the relatively high doses used in the majority of obesity treatment studies. These deleterious effects include cardiac problems such as tachycardia and atrial arrhythmias, loss of muscle mass as well as fat, increased bone resorption and muscle weakness. Nevertheless, thyroid hormones, particularly triiodothyronine (T3) are a mainstay in the arsenal of drugs used by bodybuilders for fat loss. The widespread underground use of T3 warrants an understanding of its mechanism of action, as well as a knowledge of how it is most effectively and safely used, with an eye to minimizing side effects.
Thyroid Function and Physiology
Before jumping right into a discussion of the use of thyroid hormone for fat loss, a little review of thyroid function and physiology might be in order. The thyroid gland secretes two hormones of interest to us, thyroxine (T4) and triiodothyronine (T3). T3 is considered the physiologically active hormone, and T4 is converted peripherally into T3 by the action of the enzyme deiodinase. The bulk of the body's T3 (about 80%) comes from this conversion. The secretion of T4 is under the control of Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) which is produced by the pituitary gland. TSH secretion is in turn controlled through release of Thyrotropin Releasing Hormone which is produced in the hypothalamus. This is analogous to testosterone production, where GnRH from the hypothalamus causes the pituitary to release LH, which in turn stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.
In addition to T3, it has recently been recognized that there exist two additional active metabolites of T3: 3,5 and 3,3' diiodothyronines, which we will collectively call T2. Studies have shown that 3,3'-T2 may be more effective in raising resting metabolic rate when hypothyroid subjects are treated with T3, than when normal (euthyroid) subjects are given T3. Therefore in normal subjects 3,5-T2 may be the principal active metabolite of T3 (1)
Like the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, the thyroid gland is under negative feedback control. When T3 levels go up, TSH secretion is suppressed. This is the mechanism whereby exogenous thyroid hormone suppresses natural thyroid hormone production. There is a difference though between the way anabolic steroids suppress natural testosterone production and the way T3 suppresses the thyroid. With steroids, the longer and heavier the cycle is, the longer your natural testosterone is suppressed. This is not the case with exogenous thyroid hormone.
An early study that looked at thyroid function and recovery under the influence of exogenous thyroid hormone was undertaken by Greer (2). He looked at patients who were misdiagnosed as being hypothyroid and put on thyroid hormone replacement for as long as 30 years. When the medication was withdrawn, their thyroids quickly returned to normal.
Here is a remark about Greer's classic paper from a later author:
"In 1951, Greer reported the pattern of recovery of thyroid function after stopping suppressive treatment with thyroid hormone in euthyroid [normal] subjects based on sequential measurements of their thyroidal uptake of radioiodine. He observed that after withdrawal of exogenous thyroid therapy, thyroid function, in terms of radioiodine uptake, returned to normal in most subjects within two weeks. He further observed that thyroid function returned as rapidly in those subjects whose glands had been depressed by several years of thyroid medication as it did in those whose gland had been depressed for only a few days" (3)
These results have been subsequently verified in several studies.(3)(4) So contrary to what has been stated in the bodybuilding literature, there is no evidence that long term thyroid supplementation will somehow damage your thyroid gland. Nevertheless, most bodybuilders will choose to cycle their T3 (or T4 which in most cases works just as well) as part of a cutting strategy, since T3 is catabolic with respect to muscle just as it is with fat. As previously mentioned, long term T3 induced hyperthyroidism is also catabolic to bone as well as muscle. .............
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Summary
We have discussed a number of ways by which T3, and its active metabolite T2 act to increase resting energy expenditure. Also discussed were some drawbacks of T3 use, such as cardiac stress, as well as the potential loss of muscle mass. It is ironic that the latter may be of more concern to many bodybuilders that the other more serious potential impacts on health. Nevertheless, used moderately and for short periods (a couple of months or less) in people with no preexisting cardiovascular disease T3 has a relatively safe medical profile, compared to other lipolytic agents like DNP. Perhaps most importantly we have presented substantial evidence that even the long-term use of supraphysiological levels of T3 does not damage the thyroid gland.
References:
(1) Endocrinology 2002 Feb;143(2):504-10 Are the effects of T3 on resting metabolic rate in euthyroid rats entirely caused by T3 itself? Moreno M, Lombardi A, Beneduce L, Silvestri E, Pinna G, Goglia F, Lanni A.
(2)(Greer,M. N Engl J Med 244:385, 1951)
(3)N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4 Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy. Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.
(4) J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80 Patterns off recovery of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis in patients taken of chronic thyroid therapy. Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN
(5) Int J Obes 1983;7(2):123-31 The effect of a low-calorie diet alone and in combination with triiodothyronine therapy on weight loss and hypophyseal thyroid function in obesity. Koppeschaar HP, Meinders AE, Schwarz F.
(6) Am J Med 2002 Jul;113(1):30-6 Effect of 6-month adherence to a very low carbohydrate diet program. Westman EC, Yancy WS, Edman JS, Tomlin KF, Perkins CE.
(7) J Endocrinol Invest 2001 Dec;24(11):897-913 Control of energy metabolism by iodothyronines.
Lanni A, Moreno M, Lombardi A, de Lange P, Goglia F
(8) Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1980 Nov;13(5):489-506 Metabolic aspects of the calorigenic effect of thyroid hormone in mammals. Sestoft L.
(9)Annu Rev Nutr 1995;15:263-91 Thermogenesis and thyroid function. Freake HC, Oppenheimer JH.
(10) J Clin Invest 2001 Sep;108(5):733-7 Effect of triiodothyronine on mitochondrial energy coupling in human skeletal muscle. Lebon V, Dufour S, Petersen KF, Ren J, Jucker BM, Slezak LA, Cline GW, Rothman DL, Shulman GI.
(11)J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Jan;84(1):207-12 Testosterone administration preserves protein balance but not muscle strength during 28 days of bed rest. Zachwieja JJ, Smith SR, Lovejoy JC, Rood JC, Windhauser MM, Bray GA.
(12) Genome Res 2002 Feb;12(2):281-91 In vivo regulation of human skeletal muscle gene expression by thyroid hormone. Clement K, Viguerie N, Diehn M, Alizadeh A, Barbe P, Thalamas C, Storey JD, Brown PO, Barsh GS, Langin D.
(13) J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2003 Jan;88(1):358-62 Related Articles, Links Differential anabolic effects of testosterone and amino Acid feeding in older men. Ferrando AA, Sheffield-Moore M, Paddon-Jones D, Wolfe RR, Urban RJ.
(14) J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9 Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man. Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
(15) Cardiovasc Res 1998 Oct;40(1):211-22 Terbutaline-induced desensitization of human cardiac beta 2-adrenoceptor-mediated positive inotropic effects: attenuation by ketotifen. Poller U, Fuchs B, Gorf A, Jakubetz J, Radke J, Ponicke K, Brodde OE.
(16) Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1996;50(3):167-70 Ketotifen in HIV-infected patients: effects on body weight and release of TNF-alpha. Ockenga J, Rohde F, Suttmann U, Herbarth L, Ballmaier M, Schedel I.
(17)Endocrinology 1998 Jun;139(6):2863-8 Tumor necrosis factor-alpha inhibits leydig cell steroidogenesis through a decrease in steroidogenic acute regulatory protein expression. Mauduit C, Gasnier F, Rey C, Chauvin MA, Stocco DM, Louisot P, Benahmed M.
(18) Growth Horm IGF Res 2001 Aug;11(4):250-60 Tissue-specific regulation of IGF-I and IGF-binding proteins in response to TNFalpha. Lang CH, Nystrom GJ, Frost RA.
(19) Exerc Immunol Rev 2001;7:18-31 Exercise and cytokines with particular focus on muscle-derived IL-6. Pedersen BK, Steensberg A, Fischer C, Keller C, Ostrowski K, Schjerling P.
(20) Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 Sep;281(3):E449-54 Catecholamines inhibit Ca(2+)-dependent proteolysis in rat skeletal muscle through beta(2)-adrenoceptors and cAMP. Navegantes LC, Resano NM, Migliorini RH, Kettelhut IC
(21) J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2002 Feb;87(2):630-4 Regulation of human adipocyte gene expression by thyroid hormone Viguerie N, Millet L, Avizou S, Vidal H, Larrouy D, Langin D.
(22) Metabolism 1987 Nov;36(11):1031-9 Alpha 2- and beta-adrenergic receptor binding and action in gluteal adipocytes from patients with hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism. Richelsen B, Sorensen NS
(23) Br J Pharmacol 2000 Feb;129(3):448-56 Regulation of beta 1- and beta 3-adrenergic agonist-stimulated lipolytic response in hyperthyroid and hypothyroid rat white adipocytes. Germack R, Starzec A, Perret GY
(24) Braz J Med Biol Res 1994 May;27(5):1269-72 Role of thyroid hormone in the control of growth hormone gene expression. Volpato CB, Nunes MT.
(25) Am J Physiol 1999 Aug;277(2 Pt 1):E370-9 Related Articles, Links Low-dose T(3) improves the bed rest model of simulated weightlessness in men and women. Lovejoy JC, Smith SR, Zachwieja JJ, Bray GA, Windhauser MM, Wickersham PJ, Veldhuis JD, Tulley R, de la Bretonne JA.
(26) Life Sci 2002 Jul 19;71(9):1059-70 Evidence for a deficient pancreatic beta-cell response in a rat model of hyperthyroidism. Fukuchi M, Shimabukuro M, Shimajiri Y, Oshiro Y, Higa M, Akamine H, Komiya I, Takasu N.
(27) Diabetologia 2002 Jun;45(6):851-5 Thyroxine induces pancreatic beta cell apoptosis in rats.
Jorns A, Tiedge M, Lenzen S.
(28) Am J Physiol 1985 May;248(5 Pt 1):E593-601 Effect of thyroid hormone excess on action, secretion, and metabolism of insulin in humans.= Dimitriadis G, Baker B, Marsh H, Mandarino L, Rizza R, Bergman R, Haymond M, Gerich J
(29) Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care 2000 Jan;3(1):67-71 Effects of insulin on muscle tissue.
Wolfe RR.
(30) J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 2001 Jan-Mar;76(1-5):31-42 Selective modulation of thyroid hormone receptor action. Baxter JD, Dillmann WH, West BL, Huber R, Furlow JD, Fletterick RJ, Webb P, Apriletti JW, Scanlan TS.
Mind and Muscle Magazine is a division of Par Deus, Inc.
© 2001 — 2003 Par Deus Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Author Info:
Karl Hoffmann, MS, is a science writer and regular contributor at Cutting Edge Muscle.
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Wood is a fucking idiot. You have to be a pro bodybuilder not to notice that something is fucked up that badly... whoops!! He is!! ;D
I don't know how he didn't notice his body rot in half... what a fucking moron.
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tbombz great articles
Whats t4?
t4 is weaker than t3, i forgot exactly what it is called, but you need like twice or three times as much to equal the effects of t3. Some people thought combining t4 with gh you got better fat loss effects. I remember some guys from ssb use to make pills combined t3 and t4 in them, not sure who it was but never tried them myself.
jt
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I think Luke's T3 had something else in it. DNP perhaps. He made a comment that he was burning up from the inside out.
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t3 is what keeps my muscle daddy able to look lean all year round and eat chocolate off my butt anytime he wants :)
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its hard to kill your thyroid with t3 or t4 contrary to the myths you hear.
oh.... really is it ::)
What are u?
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oh.... really is it ::)
What are u?
Read the bolded section in that article I posted up above. :)
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how many people you know who have bro? It is so exaggerated, many people are on year long and once they get off thyroid comes back within 3 weeks.
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how many people you know who have bro? It is so exaggerated, many people are on year long and once they get off thyroid comes back within 3 weeks.
Correct.
The fact of the matter is that your thyroid will always bounce back as quickly as it can. Whether youve been on t3 for a week or a decade, the studies indicate that recovery is always quick and always complete. The thyroid gland is not damaged by exogenous t3, it just stops producing the hormones untill you stop putting extra in your body.
I know one guy who swears up and down that t3 permanently increased his metabolism after he came off.
:)
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we all saw what happened to Luke Wood in 3 weeks. Didnt Frank Zane have a few issues too
Whatever happened to good ol DNP ::)
t3 = cytomel
t4 = triacana
Reports say a beginner should use t4 to become "accustomed" to t3, but it is a much weaker and compound. I dont think its as easy to find either.
What this situation tells me, if true, is that the drug situation really is fucked up in the US. That or some pros completely lack common sense... buying UG thyroid drugs...wtf! I hate to think what kind of bathtub steroids Luke shoots in himself. Thyroid drugs aren't even scheduled so why the hell not buy pharm grade?
As far as fucking yourself up on them... not a big concern unless you are totally reckless.
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yea van,
actually bodybuilders over here in "america" dont have any idea what they are putting in their bodies other than what some "guru" tells them, they get bloodwork tho, so they are safe. ::)