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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: NEOFARQ on October 20, 2008, 09:39:13 AM
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In about 3-4 weeks I'm gonna start my bulking stack for a show in may, test e & c, d-bol, deca, pretty standard stack. Gonna run it till about 10 weeks out from my show. Then I will begin to cut. Here's what I'm thinking. If I decide to start cutting at 12 weeks out I will just add an additional 2 weeks to the cutting cycle. Here's my base:
Cutter:
Test prop 500 mg. a week, weeks 10-1
Equipoise 250 mg. a week, 10-1
Tren A 100 mg. EOD, weeks 10-1
winni 50 mg. ED, weeks 8-1, injectable for 3 weeks then oral for last 5
Proviron 20 mg. ED, weeks 10-1
As far as fat burners:
I am going to run clen for 3 week cycles then 2 weeks of ECA, I will do this two times. Probably will also run Hydroxycut hardcore for the duration of the cycle, taken in Mornings before cardio.
How would t3 phase into this?
Could I run it for the entire 10 weeks? Would that be too much? What would the doeses be in mgs.?
HGH?
Would HGH be worthwhile for to run at 2 iu a day for 10 weeks while cutting or just a waste of time and money?
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*Run your test-e or cyp till 8wks out then switch to prop
*250mg/eq/ wk is a waste IMO...eq needs to be at 400-600mg/wk to be worth anything.
*I'd start the eq at 16wks out and then drop it 8wks out and then add in the tren-a
*On the prop, I'd run 100mg-150mg/eod
*I'd run arimidex or letrozol during the diet at 1mg/eod
*Clen, I don't care for the on/off clen approach, I also don't care for ECA...personal preference. I prefer to use clen on a more slow and gradual pyramid and stay on the entire time.
*T-3, yes, you can use it the whole time. Start at 25-50mcg/ed and bump it up 12.5-25mcg every 2wks or so...no exact protocol here, use your judgment as to how and when you need to bump it up. When your show is over, stay on the t-3 another 1-2wks at 25mcg/ed to help ease off of it. No need to do a slow gradual downward pyramid.
*HGH, a low dose of HGH will help with fat loss and conditioning, 16wks IMO is the minimum and 4iu/ed would be more like it to see effects. You will get some use out of 2iu/ed for 10wks but probably not enough to really notice IMO.
If you want more precise advise, lay out both of your cycles in more specific terms, i.e. lay out the specifics of your bulking cycle, mg's, wks, etc. Also, are these two cycles back to back or is there a break in the middle? You didn't say
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http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=105619.0
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Yes I agree, the drugs don't work if you eat like shit and don't do cardio!! I eat clean year round and do 500-600 minutes of cardio a week during show prep. The drugs are the added edge over other competitiors!!
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I would run the test e or c all the way to 4 weeks out, double the eq but stop it 3 weeks out ( never run eq all the way to show), start the winny 10 weeks out and the tren 8 weeks out, at 4 weeks switch to prop and when you drop the eq do tren every day but drop to 75mg instead of 100mg. Inhibitor of your choice, my preference is arimidex eod, clen why not do 2 weeks on 2 weeks off with alternative weeks on eca, t3 is overrated imo. and gh is more of an individual thing so no help there, good luck.
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clen why not do 2 weeks on 2 weeks off with alternative weeks on eca, t3 is overrated imo.
you cant do that - ephedrine and clenbutreol both stimulate the beta 2 adrenoreceptors. clen down regulation = ephedrine down regulation. t3 is not overrated.
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you cant do that - ephedrine and clenbutreol both stimulate the beta 2 adrenoreceptors. clen down regulation = ephedrine down regulation. t3 is not overrated.
Agreed on all accounts. And T3 is most certainly not over rated. The thyroid is amazing. If you use T3/T4 correctly it can do amazing things. Just don't think that it's a miracle drug that'll strip the fat off with no work because THEN you'll be disappointed. Also appreciate the fact that lots of UGL T3 is under dosed, especially liquid T3.
I haven't done long, continuous cycles of T3 but I've used small amounts with amazing results. I can only imagine how much improvement I'd make if I ran a little bit more for a little bit longer.
I like ephedrine for fat loss and energy as well. Clen, not so much. I don't care for the heart palps and the necrosis. EC trumps clen for fat loss as well, at least as far as risk vs reward is concerned. When beta 2 receptors down regulate people use antihistimines a lot, but be careful as they are anticholinergic. I don't know much about ketofin but I know lots of folks in town who use lots of Benadryl and Gravol (it has a lot more diphenhydramine than Benadryl). If you use it for long periods of time, supplement with nootropics like acetylcholine. Your brain will appreciate it. I have some aniracetam that I didn't care for all too much, but whenever I smoked weed before bed or took Benadryl before bed it really burned me out. The aniracetam, acetylcholine and GABA that I occasionally took really helped to clear up the grogginess. I wake up early in the mornings so it's a lot more apparent. Just thought I'd throw that out there because I saw some discussion regarding Benadryl and acne. I also find that it keeps me clear, but I try to take no more than 50mgs a day with all my health and wellness supplements.
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im always groggy..i could sleep 10 hours a night for three weeks straight and ill still need a mid day nap.. ;D ... when i take clen / ephedrine i take 100mg diphenhydramine (four 25 mg pills) every night from day one. never taken either clen or ephedrine for longer than 2 weeks without taking a break. for caffiene i like to just use lots of concentred egcg, i have 300mg capsules of egcg which contain 50mg caffiene .. the benefits of egcg at high doses 1500mg each day and higher really is something i think more people should know about.. that along with lots of fish oil ...
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Onetimehard has shown us what his advice can do.
The guy is ripped to the bone.
Don't always throw out advice from people who actually compete.
T3 is a great drug but it is not for everyone, i personally don't care for it.
8)
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Yes I agree, the drugs don't work if you eat like shit and don't do cardio!! I eat clean year round and do 500-600 minutes of cardio a week during show prep. The drugs are the added edge over other competitiors!!
I know I agree 100%. I just think too many people who use them as magic pills. With the right diet & cardio almost any drug could be a cutter.
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I know I agree 100%. I just think too many people who use them as magic pills. With the right diet & cardio almost any drug could be a cutter.
For sure.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, the leanest i have ever been was on 1g Sust and 400mg Deca, with 45 mins of cardio every day and 2200 calories, carb cycled to small degree.
8)
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Not many will agree but I've tried this with great results.
Tren A @ 100mg/daily
Halotestin @ 20mg/daily
ECA stack @ 150-200mg of ephedrine divided into 3-4 does a day
cialias as need (and you WILL need it but not all the time like everyone leads you to believe w/o test :D)
cardio- 30 min four times a week for 40 min
moderate carbs
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you cant do that - ephedrine and clenbutreol both stimulate the beta 2 adrenoreceptors. clen down regulation = ephedrine down regulation. t3 is not overrated.
Of course you can do that because the use of eca is not only for metabolism purposes, in fact I don't care for it in this way, I use it as a stimulent for my workout while I'm in Ketosis and I also use it as an appetite supressent, 2 weeks on the clen at a time is all you need so this sinerio is the best case IMO, plus while off the ephedrine he will be stimulted by the affects of the caffeine via hydroxycut. But I do see what you are saying. I don't use clen myself so I just keep upping the doses of ephedrine as I see fit. T3 may work for some but it dose squat for me.Onetimehard has shown us what his advice can do.
The guy is ripped to the bone.
Don't always throw out advice from people who actually compete.
T3 is a great drug but it is not for everyone, i personally don't care for it.
8)
Thanks ;)
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Of course you can do that because the use of eca is not only for metabolism purposes,
well you can do whatever you like, ture, but doing 2 weeks clen 2 weeks eca 2 weeks clen 2 weeks eca makes absoltely no sense. both clen and ephedrine are for 'metabolism purpouses', and they both work through the beta adrenoreceptor. clen is beta 2 specific, while ephedrine is non specific and hits beta 1 beta 2 and beta 3. when using clen your body will build a tolerance to the agonizing of the beta 2 adrenorecoptor, switching to ephedrine will still be hitting beta 2, and wont alow for the tolerance to fade, in fact youll only grow more tolerant to the fat burning effects of BOTH ephedrine and clen.
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Not many will agree but I've tried this with great results.
Tren A @ 100mg/daily
Halotestin @ 20mg/daily
ECA stack @ 150-200mg of ephedrine divided into 3-4 does a day
cialias as need (and you WILL need it but not all the time like everyone leads you to believe w/o test :D)
cardio- 30 min four times a week for 40 min
moderate carbs
Halo is extremely effective as an anti-catabolic and shuts down cortisol HARD. Besides being a stronger competitor than most steroids for the GR, its alterations at C-9 and C-11 were specifically intended to increase affinity for the 11bHSD1 enzyme that converts cortisone into cortisol. Extremely good for cutting. Couple that with tren which also alters cortisol receptors increasing cortisol inhibition and you've got one great combo.
(Big Cat made some posts about Halo which is where I got that info from, very informative)
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well you can do whatever you like, ture, but doing 2 weeks clen 2 weeks eca 2 weeks clen 2 weeks eca makes absoltely no sense. both clen and ephedrine are for 'metabolism purpouses', and they both work through the beta adrenoreceptor. clen is beta 2 specific, while ephedrine is non specific and hits beta 1 beta 2 and beta 3. when using clen your body will build a tolerance to the agonizing of the beta 2 adrenorecoptor, switching to ephedrine will still be hitting beta 2, and wont alow for the tolerance to fade, in fact youll only grow more tolerant to the fat burning effects of BOTH ephedrine and clen.
Ephedrine and Clenbuterol don't work through the same mechanism of action.
That's been known for years........since the days of Duchaine.
Why are you spreading your "internet knowledge" on here to people who have been doing this longer than you've been alive?
"2 weeks on/2 weeks off" has been done for a long time with great success.
Clen burns the brown fat that regulates body temperature, which has nothing to do with Ephedrine.
Whatever book or internet article you read to come to the conclusion that Ephedrine and Clen work the same is wrong.
The whole idea of alternating them is with this in mind.
DIV
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heres some quick proof, division.
proof clenb works through beta 2 adrenoceptor =
Clenbuterol, a 2-Adrenoceptor Agonist, Improves Locomotor and Histological Outcomes after Spinal Cord Contusion in Rats
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/els/00144886/1999/00000159/00000001/art97146
and a link to a whole shit load of proof that ephedrine works through the beta 2 adrenoceptor
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:59989
its fact.
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bump, ...only because you deleted one of my post. :-*
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heres some quick proof, division.
proof clenb works through beta 2 adrenoceptor =
Clenbuterol, a 2-Adrenoceptor Agonist, Improves Locomotor and Histological Outcomes after Spinal Cord Contusion in Rats
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/els/00144886/1999/00000159/00000001/art97146
and a link to a whole shit load of proof that ephedrine works through the beta 2 adrenoceptor
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:59989
Rats are humans?
Show me some human studies, then I'll pay attention.
When are you going to stop quoting internet folklore and start gaining knowledge from your own experience?
I've used Clen many times, ECA as well.
They don't work the same, they don't feel the same.
DIV
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Ephedrine and Clenbuterol don't work through the same mechanism of action.
That's been known for years........since the days of Duchaine.
Why are you spreading your "internet knowledge" on here to people who have been doing this longer than you've been alive?
"2 weeks on/2 weeks off" has been done for a long time with great success.
Clen burns the brown fat that regulates body temperature, which has nothing to do with Ephedrine.
Whatever book or internet article you read to come to the conclusion that Ephedrine and Clen work the same is wrong.
The whole idea of alternating them is with this in mind.
DIV
Thanks Division, Tbombs is cool shitt but this science is far from being figured out because there is simply so may varibles that vary per individual, I know two pros that do it this way and it is the norm, in fact this book shitt people live by is sometimes the reason people short change themselves in the long run. Here is my proof.....I would use 120-150 mg of ephedrine per day at the end of two weeks i jumped on clen for 2 weeks without the ephedrine, after 2 weeks on clen no ephedrine my body could not handle more then 50 mg of ephdrine, with the same effects as 150 mg of ephdrine, for at least the first 3 days back. so obviously this method is highly effective.
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Wow.
okay let me take a little time and explain this for you.
the fat burning effects from Clenbuterol come from clenbuterol's beta-2 adrenoceptor agonization.
the fat burning effects of ephedrine come through ephedrines beta 1, beta 2, and bet3 adrenoceptor agonization.
the reason you cycle off of clenbuterol, is because over time your body builds a tolerance to beta 2 agonization.
the reason you cycle off of ephedrine is because over time your boy builds a tolerance to all three beta adrenoceptors (1,2, and 3).
if you cycle off of clenbuterol, and then start taking ephedrine, you will not be coming off of beta-2 adrenoceptor agonization, so you will not be loosening your tolerance to clenbuterols fat burning.
if you cycle off of ephedrine, then start taking clenbuterol, you will not be using a beta 1 or beta 3 agonizer, but you will be using a beta 2 agonizer, so you will not lose your tolerance that that particular aspect of the ephedrine fat burning.
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Wow.
okay let me take a little time and explain this for you.
the fat burning effects from Clenbuterol come from clenbuterol's beta-2 adrenoceptor agonization.
the fat burning effects of ephedrine come through ephedrines beta 1, beta 2, and bet3 adrenoceptor agonization.
the reason you cycle off of clenbuterol, is because over time your body builds a tolerance to beta 2 agonization.
the reason you cycle off of ephedrine is because over time your boy builds a tolerance to all three beta adrenoceptors (1,2, and 3).
if you cycle off of clenbuterol, and then start taking ephedrine, you will not be coming off of beta-2 adrenoceptor agonization, so you will not be loosening your tolerance to clenbuterols fat burning.
if you cycle off of ephedrine, then start taking clenbuterol, you will not be using a beta 1 or beta 3 agonizer, but you will be using a beta 2 agonizer, so you will not lose your tolerance that that particular aspect of the ephedrine fat burning.
Have you actually tried cycling the two? I have and have gotten excellent results from doing it as others have stated. What you're saying may be true on paper, but it just doesn't fit in what I've experienced.
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Bro, I knew that when I was 12, this is kinder garden stuff, but unfortunately this isn't the way it works in the real world. Now since you decide to treat me like I had a learning disability ;D, I'll return the favour 8)
2 weeks clen then stop so you don't build a tolerance, 2weeks ephedrine then stop so you don't build a tolerance
according to your book knowledge when you go back on the clen the tolerance level hasn't changed because you been using ephedrine and they both use your beta 2 adrenoceptor, as you put it.
Now listen, because this is real life experience not only from me but from everyone i know. Its a fact when you go back on the clen your tolerance levels have in fact gone down a bit, if this wasn't so then how come I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack when I take clen after 2 weeks of ephedrine and it takes me a couple days to get use to it because the dose seems at least 3 times as stronger then 2 weeks ago and when I go back on the ephdrine after using celn for 2 weeks how come first day back on ephedrine I can barely shove 2 pieces of chicken breast down because my hunger is supresses 10 fold and how come first day back on ephedrine I have the best workout and throwing heavier wieghts around, Why?... simple beause the 2 weeks off aloud my tolerance levels to drop. I know what your saying and i can't explain it sientifically but if your saying that the tolerance levels will stay the same, well this simply isn't true.
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well no i wasnt treatign you like a kindergardner, i was treating didvision like one. ;D
and yes, your right, your tolerance to clen might actually drop a little tiny bit when using ephedrine, since ephedrine is non selective and hits soemtimes 1 sometimes 2 sometimes 3.. so you do have some breaks from beta 2.. thats the schience behind what you saying.. IMO its gonna be much more effective to run clen and eca at the same time, take a break, then run them togethor again.. the ONLY reason i continued posting was because division made it quite easy to make a fool out of him, and thats something i just love doing to division ;D
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well no i wasnt treatign you like a kindergardner, i was treating didvision like one. ;D
and yes, your right, your tolerance to clen might actually drop a little tiny bit when using ephedrine, since ephedrine is non selective and hits soemtimes 1 sometimes 2 sometimes 3.. so you do have some breaks from beta 2.. thats the schience behind what you saying.. IMO its gonna be much more effective to run clen and eca at the same time, take a break, then run them togethor again.. the ONLY reason i continued posting was because division made it quite easy to make a fool out of him, and thats something i just love doing to division ;D
Well then, I'll just leave you 2 love birds alone ;D,
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lol.
gonna update your pre contest photo thread on positive board anytime soon ? should be pretty close to stage ready now, huh ?
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lol.
gonna update your pre contest photo thread on positive board anytime soon ? should be pretty close to stage ready now, huh ?
Actually I'm waiting to carb load on sat, and wake up nice and dry on sunday, witch will be 2 weeks out, closer to 3 but on sunday I take it as 2 weeks, I am down another 5 pounds, shoulders and chest striations, but I don't stop till the glutes are striated, so will post by monday night, and I'm probably going to load up with 20 pancakes ;D
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giants stack of pancakes with syrup and butter. :'( its a beautiful thing.
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giants stack of pancakes with syrup and butter. :'( its a beautiful thing.
I'll skip the butter, but the syrup is a must, but I'm in total ketosis right now, so I can take the amount of syrup you put on one pancack for 4 of mine and it will taste just as good. :D
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*Run your test-e or cyp till 8wks out then switch to prop
*250mg/eq/ wk is a waste IMO...eq needs to be at 400-600mg/wk to be worth anything.
*I'd start the eq at 16wks out and then drop it 8wks out and then add in the tren-a
*On the prop, I'd run 100mg-150mg/eod
*I'd run arimidex or letrozol during the diet at 1mg/eod
*Clen, I don't care for the on/off clen approach, I also don't care for ECA...personal preference. I prefer to use clen on a more slow and gradual pyramid and stay on the entire time.
*T-3, yes, you can use it the whole time. Start at 25-50mcg/ed and bump it up 12.5-25mcg every 2wks or so...no exact protocol here, use your judgment as to how and when you need to bump it up. When your show is over, stay on the t-3 another 1-2wks at 25mcg/ed to help ease off of it. No need to do a slow gradual downward pyramid.
*HGH, a low dose of HGH will help with fat loss and conditioning, 16wks IMO is the minimum and 4iu/ed would be more like it to see effects. You will get some use out of 2iu/ed for 10wks but probably not enough to really notice IMO.
If you want more precise advise, lay out both of your cycles in more specific terms, i.e. lay out the specifics of your bulking cycle, mg's, wks, etc. Also, are these two cycles back to back or is there a break in the middle? You didn't say
I agree with everything else, and to a certain degree with the statement about EQ IF it's UG, BUT
if you have legit Vet EQ like Equigan or Ganabol then 200mg will be more then enough, the legit Vet stuff is incredible and comes in (for the most part) 50cc jugs.
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I agree with everything else, and to a certain degree with the statement about EQ IF it's UG, BUT
if you have legit Vet EQ like Equigan or Ganabol then 200mg will be more then enough, the legit Vet stuff is incredible and comes in (for the most part) 50cc jugs.
what do you like about equipoise? ive never tried it, but i hear alot from guys who have tried both eq and deca and they say they dont find any reason to use eq when they have the option of deca.
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I used EQ and was completely underwhelmed. In a fit of rage I bombed about 1.5g a week and felt nothing. It was bunk.... I got my shit refunded and got some legit EQ and 600mgs a week was nice, but nothing spectacular. I'm naturally vascular and if I took any over the counter bodybuilding supplement, I'd get the same vascularity from EQ without the sky rocketing RBCs. Very unimpressed. I used it because I thought it'd help to put on lean, retainable gains but I should have just used more test instead.
I guess if you want it there for collagen synthesis that's not a bad idea. But like tbombz said there's always deca... people are so afraid of deca dick and gyno, but just take something to help with prolactin/progesterone and you won't have any challenges. You can also opt for something that's faster acting like NPP. People are super quick to jump to high tren doses but fear deca somehow. There's a reason why it was cherished during the Golden era! :)
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what do you like about equipoise? ive never tried it, but i hear alot from guys who have tried both eq and deca and they say they dont find any reason to use eq when they have the option of deca.
Real clean , properly synthesized Vet EQ is fucking amazing... it's one of the cleanest steroids around, great gains and has the best of both worlds, meaning you get big (like with test) and lean (like with tren,anavar) also keeps you incredibly full (due to increasing red blood cell count like EPO - which is also why it's used frequently in fighting sports and martial arts) and lean and vascular. For me at least it's a wonder drug. Personally I hate deca, deca to me means tons of bloat, water and deca dick.. I've run deca on 4 seperate ocassions, each with plenty of test and everytime had bad results with it, oh and I'm talking human grade doctor prescribed nadrolone decanoate , not underground shit. Also ran NPP few cycles, had better results with that product, way less water then deca.
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Real clean , properly synthesized Vet EQ is fucking amazing... it's one of the cleanest steroids around, great gains and has the best of both worlds, meaning you get big (like with test) and lean (like with tren,anavar) also keeps you incredibly full (due to increasing red blood cell count like EPO - which is also why it's used frequently in fighting sports and martial arts) and lean and vascular. For me at least it's a wonder drug. Personally I hate deca, deca to me means tons of bloat, water and deca dick.. I've run deca on 4 seperate ocassions, each with plenty of test and everytime had bad results with it, oh and I'm talking human grade doctor prescribed nadrolone decanoate , not underground shit. Also ran NPP few cycles, had better results with that product, way less water then deca.
what doseage of eq? honest dosseage though, not some lee preist bullcarb oh i only use a little bit kind of doseage, lol.
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what doseage of eq? honest dosseage though, not some lee preist bullcarb oh i only use a little bit kind of doseage, lol.
When I used to use underground vet (denkall, QV and british dragon) I would use 400mg/week, the REAL Canadian vet stuff I get now, I use 200mg/week (it's 50mg/cc but it's legit) I get better results @ 200mg of the real shit then I had at 400mg of the underground! I've always done small/low dosed cycles, highest I ever went in a cycle was 1250mg of sustanon w 600mg of eq + orals, usualyl I keep test around 500-750, just enough to offset the other products and keep my sex drive in check.
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I agree with everything else, and to a certain degree with the statement about EQ IF it's UG, BUT
if you have legit Vet EQ like Equigan or Ganabol then 200mg will be more then enough, the legit Vet stuff is incredible and comes in (for the most part) 50cc jugs.
You may be right. I've never had access to legit Vet grade EQ...only UG stuff, which is why I never use it anymore. I've run upwards of 900mg/wk of that junk and felt like I was injecting vegetable oil.
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You may be right. I've never had access to legit Vet grade EQ...only UG stuff, which is why I never use it anymore. I've run upwards of 900mg/wk of that junk and felt like I was injecting vegetable oil.
World of difference, although such is the always the case between UG and HG... I rarely stray from HG anymore, unless it's something I can't get in hg.. or unless cost starts to become an issue.. but that Vet EQ is insane... it's only 50mg/cc but u don't need more then 200mg a week , you feel pumped and full all the time
great stuff.
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The best vet shit I ever used was back in 1998 - 1999. Injectable Winstrol by Upjohn. Ah the good old days when the winny was good and actually worked.
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When I used to use underground vet (denkall, QV and british dragon) I would use 400mg/week, the REAL Canadian vet stuff I get now, I use 200mg/week (it's 50mg/cc but it's legit) I get better results @ 200mg of the real shit then I had at 400mg of the underground! I've always done small/low dosed cycles, highest I ever went in a cycle was 1250mg of sustanon w 600mg of eq + orals, usualyl I keep test around 500-750, just enough to offset the other products and keep my sex drive in check.
whats the name brand of the candian veterenarian equipoise? i think ill try it in a few months
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whats the name brand of the candian veterenarian equipoise? i think ill try it in a few months
It's made by a company called Wyeth
50ml bottle, 50mg/cc
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damn, thats my size bottle ! ;D
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It's made by a company called Wyeth
50ml bottle, 50mg/cc
I'll have to look into this. Even when I was running EQ that was supposedly legit, I was still unimpressed. I have heard good things about Wyeth however. I just hate my RBCs jumping up so high. They get high enough on test alone and I'm already crazy vascular even when I'm fat. I did like the fullness however.
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I'll have to look into this. Even when I was running EQ that was supposedly legit, I was still unimpressed. I have heard good things about Wyeth however. I just hate my RBCs jumping up so high. They get high enough on test alone and I'm already crazy vascular even when I'm fat. I did like the fullness however.
For me it has (as stated above) my favourite qualities of other drugs I like, the fullness of test , hardness and vascularity of winny