Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Positive Bodybuilding Discussion & Talk => Topic started by: STANG50 on October 22, 2008, 10:16:52 AM
-
I went in to see my doctor for a check up yesterday. Before my appointment he had me go get blood drawn. My test level is part of the results I got yesterday. The doctor said I was normal showing 375. I asked if it wasn't on the low side of normal and he said yes because it ranges from 200 - 800. Any suggestions on how I can raise them without going on gear.
-
how old are u?
If ur old enough u probably qualify for HRT. Check it out
-
Combine the supplement 6-oxo by Ergo pharm (6 capsules a day) plus 2 capsules of Sci Fit's Eurycoma ectract for 6 weeks. I guarantee if you have your levels tested again, they will be much higher.
-
Combine the supplement 6-oxo by Ergo pharm (6 capsules a day) plus 2 capsules of Sci Fit's Eurycoma ectract for 6 weeks. I guarantee if you have your levels tested again, they will be much higher.
WTF is "Eurycoma"?
-
It's an herbal supplement called Eurycoma Longfolia, which has been shown to increase testoterone levels. I've tried it and it gave some serious libido increases, so I think it works well.
-
how old are u?
If ur old enough u probably qualify for HRT. Check it out
How old do you typically have to be?
And how commonly will they prescribe it?
My PCP doesn’t even like me using protein powders.
I presume that if/when I’m one day ready for HRT, I’ll need to get a Rx from a different Dr.
-
I went in to see my doctor for a check up yesterday. Before my appointment he had me go get blood drawn. My test level is part of the results I got yesterday. The doctor said I was normal showing 375. I asked if it wasn't on the low side of normal and he said yes because it ranges from 200 - 800. Any suggestions on how I can raise them without going on gear.
I would get a referral to an endocrinologist, one who specializes in male issues if possible. Being on the low end of "normal" sucks all around. Here's an article on reading and understanding blood work, as well as advice for improvements:
It's In Your Blood
by Will Brink
A down and dirty primer and intro to understanding the value of regular blood work with some strategies and pointers for optimizing hormones and other things that negatively or positively impact your health and ability to add lean body mass and minimize bodyfat levels
One topic that seems to be a never-ending source of confusion is blood, or more precisely, understanding blood work and which tests to get and why. It never fails to amaze me that the vast majority of bodybuilders and other athletes have no issue spending literally thousands of dollars on supplements (some of which have virtually no science behind them to justify their use) and gym memberships each year, but won't spend a penny on blood tests to see what's really going on with their hormones and other indicators of health (e.g., cholesterol, liver function, etc.).
This is odd considering the fact that it's those very hormones that are ultimately responsible for whether or not your hard work in the gym is a waste of time (read busting your ass and getting no place fast) or productive. Let me be as clear as possible here: if your blood chemistry is off, meaning your hormone levels are sub par, you can eat all the supplements you want, follow any fancy new routine you want, and eat all you want, and you will be spinning your wheels with little to no results!
Depending on how out of whack your hormones are, you will get less then optimal results from your hard work or virtually no results at all. Conversely, the person with naturally optimal levels of hormones, or the person that has optimized their hormone levels via external assistance (more on that later) is going to make the progress they expect from their training, nutrition, and supplement use.
Now, explaining everything there is to know about blood work, hormones, etc., is far beyond the scope of this article. What I hope to do is give people a primer, using my own recent blood tests as examples, so people understand the importance of regular blood work and will follow up by learning more about the topic via additional readings, talking to a doctor, surfing the net, and so on.
Cont:
http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=17
-
Combine the supplement 6-oxo by Ergo pharm (6 capsules a day) plus 2 capsules of Sci Fit's Eurycoma ectract for 6 weeks. I guarantee if you have your levels tested again, they will be much higher.
The 6-OXO will work, on paper. But it's very questionable whether it will have any positive physique effects at all. There's a big chance it will instead have a negative impact IMO. Even the study on 6-OXO failed to see any positive physique effects... the researchers speculated on reason might be because the hormone competes with testosterone at the androgen receptor. The AI's will also lower GH and IGF-1. Gaspari's Novedex study showed a 50% reduction in IGF-1, and the researchers here speculalted it could account for the lack of positive recomp effects despite a massive test boost.
What good is a nice lab result if there are no positive effects usually attributed to high test? None at all.
-
the researchers speculated on reason might be because the hormone competes with testosterone at the androgen receptor.
could you explain this van ?
-
I went in to see my doctor for a check up yesterday. Before my appointment he had me go get blood drawn. My test level is part of the results I got yesterday. The doctor said I was normal showing 375. I asked if it wasn't on the low side of normal and he said yes because it ranges from 200 - 800. Any suggestions on how I can raise them without going on gear.
If you suspect something's wrong or your test levels have plummeted you need more blood work and a competent doc. 'Free' test, lutenizing hormone, estrogen etc etc.
Why did you get this lab done?
Forget about supplements unless you like to experiment and possibly make things worse (the aromatase inhibitors "work", like I mentioned in the other post, while no herbal has been proven to increase test).
-
could you explain this van ?
Here's the researcher's comment wrt the lack of body composition effects:
This lack of change even at higher testosterone levels can probably be attributed to 6OXOTM's chemical structure. By being chemically similar to testosterone, it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone's ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass with increased testosterone concentrations. (p. 62)
-
Here's the researcher's comment wrt the lack of body composition effects:
doesnt make any sense. all AAS are similar in structure to tesosterone and therefore would also 'compete' with testosterone at the androgen receptor. well, nott 'therefore', thats kind of common knowledge you know....AAS works through the AR... im not sure what the mean by competing with testosterone.. like i said that doesnt make sense to me. i was hoping you might understand it and be able to explain it.
-
The 6-OXO will work, on paper. But it's very questionable whether it will have any positive physique effects at all. There's a big chance it will instead have a negative impact IMO. Even the study on 6-OXO failed to see any positive physique effects... the researchers speculated on reason might be because the hormone competes with testosterone at the androgen receptor. The AI's will also lower GH and IGF-1. Gaspari's Novedex study showed a 50% reduction in IGF-1,
To add, an increase in T is generally followed by a small increase (10-30%) in IGF-1, not a reduction, so that bodes poorly for this product.
-
doesnt make any sense. all AAS are similar in structure to tesosterone and therefore would also 'compete' with testosterone at the androgen receptor. well, nott 'therefore', thats kind of common knowledge you know....AAS works through the AR... im not sure what the mean by competing with testosterone.. like i said that doesnt make sense to me. i was hoping you might understand it and be able to explain it.
If the compound in question competes for the AR with T, but does not have the androgenic and or anabolic effects, what's gonna happen? You will have an anti androgen in effect, which is of course potentially bad mojo if you're interest in gaining LBM/strength. I don't know if that's the case here, just going off their hypothesis above, but it sounds like that's the direction they are going and might account for the drop in IGF=1 also, but again, a WAG on my part there.
-
doesnt make any sense. all AAS are similar in structure to tesosterone and therefore would also 'compete' with testosterone at the androgen receptor. well, nott 'therefore', thats kind of common knowledge you know....AAS works through the AR... im not sure what the mean by competing with testosterone.. like i said that doesnt make sense to me. i was hoping you might understand it and be able to explain it.
I'm not a scientist but, to my understanding, different steroids activate different genes. 6-OXO then apparently wouldn't lead to anabolism after binding, presumably because it doesn't activate the 'proper' genes. It would just compete with test at the AR. If someone understands this better please correct me if I'm wrong.
-
To add, an increase in T is generally followed by a small increase (10-30%) in IGF-1, not a reduction, so that bodes poorly for this product.
It's funny how Gaspari and Ergopharm are so proud of these "successful" studies, proving their products work. Doesn't look successful to me. How can anyone think these are good products after looking at the data? What exactly do they do? I've asked some 'reps' on bb.com and haven't had one good answer.Maybe useful in a PCT situation, but as anabolics? ???
-
I'm not a scientist but, to my understanding, different steroids activate different genes. 6-OXO then apparently wouldn't lead to anabolism after binding, presumably because it doesn't activate the 'proper' genes. It would just compete with test at the AR. If someone understands this better please correct me if I'm wrong.
Gene transcription is going to be farther down the pathway there, but it can simply be viewed as I wrote above, assuming they are correct about competing for the AR. Beyond that, it gets complicated real fast as you get into things like binding affinities, tissue specificity, non AR mediated effects, KM, etc, etc.
-
How can anyone think these are good products after looking at the data?
You answered your own question. People don't look the data, assuming there is any in the first place, which 99% of the time, there is none.
-
From my own use of 6-oxo, I have noticed a big increase in Libido for about 6 weeks on it, then the effects tend to diminish. I also notice my physique takes on a much harder appearence. Did I gain a lot of size from it? No. Did my test levels significantly increase? Not sure, but it"felt" as if they did. A friend who is about my age, mid 40's, also noticed the same effects as me. I've been cycling it for about 3 years, and my test levels seem to be much better than most other people my age I speak to. I've been training drug free for over 20 years and I still look pretty close to this (taken when I was 35). New pics coming soon.
-
okay, that makes sense, BUT, not really. does anybody have a rough estimate of the # of andro recpetors on a given amount of tissue? im willing to bet that the amount of of AR in the body is overwhelming in comparison to the amount of testosterone. there should be ample recepetors for both testosterone, 6oxo, and whatever the hell else you want to throw into the body.
-
okay, that makes sense, BUT, not really.
Yes, really. As I said, beyond that, a few issues of which were mentioned above, it gets real complicated real fast.
-
no need to get curt, will.
any idea the # of AR in a given amount of tissue? how many AR a given mg of andro can bind to ?
-
no need to get curt, will.
any idea the # of AR in a given amount of tissue? how many AR a given mg of andro can bind to ?
Different tissues have different AR densities and it's just not as simple as X amount of AR + Y mg of andro = simple conclusions we can make here. The point being, if the compound in question here competing for the AR (as researcher hypothesized), is having a net anti androgen effect, the outcome will not be what bbers want. You can even have a compound that acts an an antagonist in one tissue and an agonist in another, so it takes a detailed look at the compound to come to any real conclusions here beyond what we have to go on,
-
Different tissues have different AR densities and it's just not as simple as X amount of AR + Y mg of andro = simple conclusions we can make here.
of course, thats why i asked for a rough estimate.. for example, ar density increases in the presence of andro, and in the presence of estro...
-
Yes, really. As I said, beyond that, a few issues of which were mentioned above, it gets real complicated real fast.
Seems to be an overcomplication of a simple compound that has been clearly demonstrated to inhibit the aromatase enzyme, lower estrogen and raise testosterone levels. From noticing an increase in my testicular size while on it, I would guess leutinizing hormone is also increased possibly to some degree. Obviously, the compound won't raise testosterone levels beyond supraphysiological levels, so it won't come close to giving steroid like effects. But that wasn't what this post was about. Instead of going the usual medical route, which means they will probably put this guy on hormone replacement, which means he has to stay on it for life, or he'll be even more supressed when he comes off, I suggested two compounds which I have noticed positive results in terms of higher hormone levels. What would he have to lose by trying a 6 week cycle of it and then having his hormones tested again? Worse case scenario, it didn't help. Best case, he found a way to make his own body produce more test instead of having to have it replaced forever. And I would love to see the study that says 6-oxo competes for any androgen receptors.
-
Other questions for Stang50 who started this thread. Do you get enough sleep at night? Are you under stress? Are you overtraining? All of these can raise cortisol levels and thus lower your testosterone. Did you use Anabolic steroids frequently in the past? Do you drink excessive amounts of alcohol or smoke massive amounts of weed? Are you Zinc deficient possibly? All these things can make a difference.
-
Seems to be an overcomplication of a simple compound that has been clearly demonstrated to inhibit the aromatase enzyme, lower estrogen and raise testosterone levels. From noticing an increase in my testicular size while on it, I would guess leutinizing hormone is also increased possibly to some degree. Obviously, the compound won't raise testosterone levels beyond supraphysiological levels, so it won't come close to giving steroid like effects. But that wasn't what this post was about. Instead of going the usual medical route, which means they will probably put this guy on hormone replacement, which means he has to stay on it for life, or he'll be even more supressed when he comes off, I suggested two compounds which I have noticed positive results in terms of higher hormone levels. What would he have to lose by trying a 6 week cycle of it and then having his hormones tested again? Worse case scenario, it didn't help. Best case, he found a way to make his own body produce more test instead of having to have it replaced forever. And I would love to see the study that says 6-oxo competes for any androgen receptors.
(some points)
Actually, I'm pretty sure 6-OXO increases estrogen levels. This may seem strange for an AI, but do a search for an explanation by Patrick if you're interested.
The study is in fact a study paid for by Ergopharm. A study they use to sell the product.
There's a chance the product will cause lowered test, perhaps even permanently, when you come off. I have read at least one such account where the guy felt like shit after coming off and labs said his hormones were really really off. The study showed a 3 week rebound where levels were off but what about longer cycles?
If you want health, testosterone would be the way to go and I'm sure even Patrick Arnold would agree (I think Pat is really smart). There's a lot of questions about this compound and long term effects. This is in no way a more natural or more healthy approach compared to exogenous testosterone. This is a drug, a steroidal drug with no long term research behind it.
-
(some points)
Actually, I'm pretty sure 6-OXO increases estrogen levels. This may seem strange for an AI, but do a search for an explanation by Patrick if you're interested.
The study is in fact a study paid for by Ergopharm. A study they use to sell the product.
There's a chance the product will cause lowered test, perhaps even permanently, when you come off. I have read at least one such account where the guy felt like shit after coming off and labs said his hormones were really really off. The study showed a 3 week rebound where levels were off but what about longer cycles?
If you want health, testosterone would be the way to go and I'm sure even Patrick Arnold would agree (I think Pat is really smart). There's a lot of questions about this compound and long term effects. This is in no way a more natural or more healthy approach compared to exogenous testosterone. This is a drug, a steroidal drug with no long term research behind it.
I have taken it on and off for over 3 years. Never have I had a crash from it or noticed any symptoms of lowered testorone. I've been training and taking supplements for over 25 years and know my body pretty well. The studies I've read show virtually no estrogen rebound at all after discontinuing the product. If you know of others, I'd like to read them. Because if it is proven to have adverse effects, I would definitely stop taking it. I think testosterone injections are great..if your over 50 and can no longer make your body produce adequate levels of it's own. But I see a lot of people who are relatively young being put on it for life, when all they probably needed to do was adjust their lifestyle a bit. It seems most people I know on test replacement say initially it improves their sex drive, body composition, but eventually the effects diminish and larger doses are required, and then you have to take anti-estrogens or anti-aromatase anyway to inhibit the estrogen buildup, DHt inhibitors to slow prostate growth and hair loss, possible cholesterol lowering drugs in some cases. Then cycle off and do HCG injections. That doesn't sound so great to me.
-
(some points)
Actually, I'm pretty sure 6-OXO increases estrogen levels. This may seem strange for an AI, but do a search for an explanation by Patrick if you're interested.
The study is in fact a study paid for by Ergopharm. A study they use to sell the product.
There's a chance the product will cause lowered test, perhaps even permanently, when you come off. I have read at least one such account where the guy felt like shit after coming off and labs said his hormones were really really off. The study showed a 3 week rebound where levels were off but what about longer cycles?
If you want health, testosterone would be the way to go and I'm sure even Patrick Arnold would agree (I think Pat is really smart). There's a lot of questions about this compound and long term effects. This is in no way a more natural or more healthy approach compared to exogenous testosterone. This is a drug, a steroidal drug with no long term research behind it.
like i said, this dude needs to go back to the doctor to see if he qualifies for hormone replacement therapy.
-
Flex I'm 35 now will be 36 come January
-
Flex I'm 35 now will be 36 come January
u probably qualify bro, ask ur doc about it. Those test levels are low.
Try and get hormone replacement ok :)
-
like i said, this dude needs to go back to the doctor to see if he qualifies for hormone replacement therapy.
Depends on the doc. By the lab numbers, he does not qualify. Read my article on blood work. If you are in the "normal" range, most docs will not treat. A few will, if they are forward thinking types who realize human being are more then lab numbers, but the vast majority will not.
-
Other questions for Stang50 who started this thread. Do you get enough sleep at night? Are you under stress? Are you overtraining? All of these can raise cortisol levels and thus lower your testosterone. Did you use Anabolic steroids frequently in the past? Do you drink excessive amounts of alcohol or smoke massive amounts of weed? Are you Zinc deficient possibly? All these things can make a difference.
Chemist I get 7 to 8 hours sleep most nights. Yes I do have a fair amount of stress.( Which has gotten better as of late) I'm not over training.Never have used AAS. Don't drink but about 1-2 times a year and I don't smoke anything. Zinc I couldn't tell ya tho.
-
Not talking about Stang50 anymore...but just out of curiosity, does anyone here believe that lifestyle issues such as excessive stress, lack of sleep, overtraining, all which can raise cortisol levels, and too much alcohol and marijuana intake can adversely affect testosterone levels. For example if a guy in his mid 20's finds he has low testosterone and he does all of the above, would you advise a guy like that first to just get on HRT or would you have him address his lifestyle first and get retested in a few weeks to see if there was an improvement. I know this type of philosophy goes against the established medical system of treating the symptom of a disorder, rather than adressing the root cause. For example, a young guy has low test..goes to the doctor and the doctor puts him on hormones. Does he ever try to figure out why the guy's test levels are low to begin with? I mention this because a few months back I had been training hard for almost a year with no layoff, daytrading large sums of money (stress) and found I had a the symptoms of low testosterone(no libido, no pump in the gym, etc.)If I went to a doctor at that point I'm sure my hormones would have tested low. Then I took a layoff from the gym and on the 10th day, I started waking up with some serious morning wood and I knew my test levels were getting back up.
-
Chemist I get 7 to 8 hours sleep most nights. Yes I do have a fair amount of stress.( Which has gotten better as of late) I'm not over training.Never have used AAS. Don't drink but about 1-2 times a year and I don't smoke anything. Zinc I couldn't tell ya tho.
I just read this. Ok then, you may indeed be a candidate for HRT. Sounds like it's not your lifestyle.
-
Does he ever try to figure out why the guy's test levels are low to begin with?
That's why i recommended getting a referral to an endocrinologist, preferably one that specializes in male issues, HRT, etc. Even then, some may actually look for the root cause, most will not. They can track back where in the HPTA is the cause, and then take steps to treat it, and or diagnose what's causing it. Some times no cause can be found, some times it can, but it can be a lengthy and expensive process. Most docs will look at the lab numbers, and if you're low enough to treat via HRT, get you on HRT and send you out the door minus ever taking the time to figure out why you are low.
-
Is HRT covered under most insurance policies ?
-
Is HRT covered under most insurance policies ?
should be, cant be walking around with a limp dick at 35 bro :)
-
lol thanks for the information so far.
-
I'm 36 and my level was 442. They actually told me it was a little high ::). Most docs aren't cool when it comes to that stuff. Unless your level is unusually low they don't care.
-
I'm 36 and my level was 442. They actually told me it was a little high ::). Most docs aren't cool when it comes to that stuff. Unless your level is unusually low they don't care.
400s as high? The doc is a moron. In my 20s, I often had T levels in the high 600s-low 700s. In my 30's, it was generally in the high 400s-low500s, and in my early 40s now, its in the mid-low 400s. I had one dip into 375, but next test had 430. Anything below 400 is HRT time in my view (depending on age and other variables), but few docs will treat at that point and will wait until you feel like crap, have low libido, increased bodyfat and loss of LBM, etc before they will treat. Ergo, reactive to symptoms vs pro active to avoid them. The classic medical model we currently suffer. >:(
-
Depends on the doc. By the lab numbers, he does not qualify. Read my article on blood work. If you are in the "normal" range, most docs will not treat. A few will, if they are forward thinking types who realize human being are more then lab numbers, but the vast majority will not.
Agree..Docs are not "forward thinking" enough (Ive been thee) as Will says..Take his advice and seek help from an Endo they work with hormones your local Doc does not.