Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: First Blood on November 02, 2008, 04:33:23 PM
-
im thinking that close grip bench presses are overrated when it comes to building the triceps...i have gotten alot better results using different kind of extensions. specially overhead cable extensions.
do you guys think cgbp is better for powerlifters and bodybuilders should just stick to extensions, pushdowns, machine dips etc?
-
hahahahahahahahahahahaha haha
-
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
whats so funny?
dont have an own opinion?
-
I've used them for years, and have always rated them. I know other people hate them though.
-
I've used them for years, and have always rated them. I know other people hate them though.
rated them? you mean they have worked well for you?
-
and couldnt you do lockouts instead of cgbp if you wanna improve the bench press ? and isnt that more interesting for powerlifters?
-
they're a great movement that i always use but you're right extension movements are better at building the whole triceps, the stretch is the key, Pumpster has a lot of great ideas on different extension movements if one is too hard on your elbows, i can't do overhead extensions because they ALWAYS give me elbow pain but lying extensions never do so i do those, i always lower the weight behind my head.
-
and couldnt you do lockouts instead of cgbp if you wanna improve the bench press ? and isnt that more interesting for powerlifters?
Probably yeah, but I've always done them for triceps. A lot of people say they hurt their wrists or elbows, but I've never experienced that. I think they are a good compound movement for the whole triceps.
-
they're a great movement that i always use but you're right extension movements are better at building the whole triceps, the stretch is the key.
to be honest i dont feel much when im doin cgbp...mostly my shoulders...unless i use very light weights...
i read that serge nubret thought you should just use isolation movements like extensions, pushdowns etc...
-
they're a great movement that i always use but you're right extension movements are better at building the whole triceps, the stretch is the key, Pumpster has a lot of great ideas on different extension movements if one is too hard on your elbows, i can't do overhead extensions because they ALWAYS give me elbow pain but lying extensions never do so i do those, i always lower the weight behind my head.
yeah thats the main problem i have heard..when it comes to extensions..elbow pain.
but i heard pumpster and slaveboy1980 say that you should do pushdowns before you do the extensions and use high reps..
im thinking about doing this triceps routine
pushdowns high reps 10-20 reps
extensions (in cable behing the neck) 8-12 reps
machine dips or one arm pushdowns 8-12 reps
-
to be honest i dont feel much when im doin cgbp...mostly my shoulders...unless i use very light weights...
i read that serge nubret thought you should just use isolation movements like extensions, pushdowns etc...
in a way Serge is right, some guys don't feel much on the big basic movements for arms like CGBP, BB curls, Dips, etc. but get great results with isolation movements, i remember Dave Palumbo saying something like that in MD a few years ago, he suggested doing more cable movements for arms to feel the muscles, what i would suggest is not using TOO CLOSE a grip but going just inside shoulder width and keep your elbow pointed towars your feet, keep the light at first like maybe 135 pounds just to get the feel of them.
-
yeah thats the main problem i have heard..when it comes to extensions..elbow pain.
but i heard pumpster and slaveboy1980 say that you should do pushdowns before you do the extensions and use high reps..
im thinking about doing this triceps routine
pushdowns high reps 10-20 reps
extensions (in cable behing the neck) 8-12 reps
machine dips or one arm pushdowns 8-12 reps
that's a good routine, like i said Pump has a lot of great advice that goes contrary to the stupid "go heavy or go home" bullshit you hear so much, light pushdowns are a great way to get your elbows warmed up, i stay away from OVERHEAD extensions because they tear my elbows up no matter what weight i use.
-
in a way Serge is right, some guys don't feel much on the big basic movements for arms like CGBP, BB curls, Dips, etc. but get great results with isolation movements, i remember Dave Palumbo saying something like that in MD a few years ago, he suggested doing more cable movements for arms to feel the muscles, what i would suggest is not using TOO CLOSE a grip but going just inside shoulder width and keep your elbow pointed towars your feet, keep the light at first like maybe 135 pounds just to get the feel of them.
thanks man..im gonna have to think about this. not 100% sure which method im gonna use...
-
that's a good routine, like i said Pump has a lot of great advice that goes contrary to the stupid "go heavy or go home" bullshit you hear so much, light pushdowns are a great way to get your elbows warmed up, i stay away from OVERHEAD extensions because they tear my elbows up no matter what weight i use.
have you tried doing them with cables (standing and overhead)...its weird i dont feel that movement at all in my elbows...but when i do the same exercise with an ez- bar my elbows hurt too
i have tried the lying tricep extensions..but never really felt it in my triceps...weird
heaviest i have used on tricep extensions with ez bar is 47kg (like 105 lbs i think)
for me it seems like cables and machine work is best when it comes to triceps...
-
that's a good routine, like i said Pump has a lot of great advice that goes contrary to the stupid "go heavy or go home" bullshit you hear so much, light pushdowns are a great way to get your elbows warmed up, i stay away from OVERHEAD extensions because they tear my elbows up no matter what weight i use.
It's strange how different people get different effects, I've always been fine doing overhead extensions, but get a lot of discomfort from lying extensions.
-
thanks man..im gonna have to think about this. not 100% sure which method im gonna use...
if your having trouble with them either don't do them at all or do them as the very last movement and go light on them, maybe 135 for a few sets of 15-20 just to get them in as a last movement or maybe even do them on the Smith machine.
-
you really have to have a great mind to muscle connection in order to do close grip bench press correctly.
quaker makes great points. isloating biceps and triceps have always wroked best for me. dips and close grip bench aree great mass builders if you can ISOLATE while doing them. its tough. for dips, the only way i can get the tri's isloated is by doing them on two benches, one with my legs propper up and one behind my back with my hands behind me, plates loaded on my lap.
one of my favorite exercises for triceps is straight bar pushdowns.
check out levrone at 1:22
-
It's strange how different people get different effects, I've always been fine doing overhead extensions, but get a lot of discomfort from lying extensions.
yeah it's crazy, i used to do some pretty heavy dumbbell extensions when i was in my mid 20's and they never gave me problems but as the years progressed they began giving me problems, now at 36 i can't touch them.
-
if your having trouble with them either don't do them at all or do them as the very last movement and go light on them, maybe 135 for a few sets of 15-20 just to get them in as a last movement or maybe even do them on the Smith machine.
cool, i think this is a really interesting discussion....compound method vs isolation method. i been reading lots of articles and stuff last few weeks to learn more about bodybuilding....and i have..but made me confused too lol
yeah maybe ill do them in a smith machine last (for hight reps)..just so i dont feel like i left em out hehe
-
yeah it's crazy, i used to do some pretty heavy dumbbell extensions when i was in my mid 20's and they never gave me problems but as the years progressed they began giving me problems, now at 36 i can't touch them.
i do them about every other workout.. my triceps are stronger than my grip strength in that particular movement so i cant really hi failure unless i go high reps...
-
i do them about every other workout.. my triceps are stronger than my grip strength in that particular movement so i cant really hi failure unless i go high reps...
me and a friend of mine used to go stupid heavy on those things and i think now i'm paying the price for that foolishness, no need to go crazy on weight for arm movements, your triceps get a lot of work on heavy benches, inclines and shoulder presses anyway.
-
you really have to have a great mind to muscle connection in order to do close grip bench press correctly.
quaker makes great points. isloating biceps and triceps have always wroked best for me. dips and close grip bench aree great mass builders if you can ISOLATE while doing them. its tough. for dips, the only way i can get the tri's isloated is by doing them on two benches, one with my legs propper up and one behind my back with my hands behind me, plates loaded on my lap.
one of my favorite exercises for triceps is straight bar pushdowns.
check out levrone at 1:22
personally i dont like doing them with a straight bar...feels weird..and i feel it in my elbows lol...
-
cool, i think this is a really interesting discussion....compound method vs isolation method. i been reading lots of articles and stuff last few weeks to learn more about bodybuilding....and it has..but made me confused too lol
yeah maybe ill do them in a smith machine last (for hight reps)..just so i dont feel like i left em out hehe
Not too sure about doing them in a smith machine, cos your natural groove might need to bring the bar away from the vertical plane. You'd be better off doing them with a very light weight on a bench to see how your form is, before deciding whether to keep doing them.
-
Some people love CGBP, for that area of tris i like dip machine, wide-elbow pushdowns, etc. Extensions are not primarily gonna hit the same areas.
Before you give up on any exercise because it doesn't work or hurts, try slight variations in grip, grip width, ROM, angle and keep the reps moderate to high while going as heavy as possible. Worth trying decline CG with an E-Z curl bar or Smith Machine if it's practical before giving up on them. Also vary the grip width, and also try either keeping the elbows in, elbows out or not doing full ROM-lower the bar only part of the way down, stop well before hitting chest. Smith Machine can sometimes be better on some exercises, like CG. Trial and error, see if there's some version that works and doesn't hurt. Go as heavy as possible while keeping the reps moderate or high, rests of a minute or less.
Same thing with any exercise that either hurts or isn't felt in the muscle, try slight variations in grip, angle, etc. it's surprising the difference small changes can make in effect and in injury avoidance. That thing about going too heavy when younger's very typical, Mel Anthony was talking about that too in a recent mag article, we all regret some of those things we didn't know then. We can learn how to be more efficient and easier on the body later with more experience. ;)
-
me and a friend of mine used to go stupid heavy on those things and i think now i'm paying the price for that foolishness, no need to go crazy on weight for arm movements, your triceps get a lot of work on heavy benches, inclines and shoulder presses anyway.
do you think it would be smart to work triceps with fast pace...moderate weight (8+ reps)...isolation movements...just to save the elbows?
-
Some people love CGBP, i like dip machine, bench dips, etc. as substitutes for that area of tris. Worth trying decline CG with an E-Z curl bar if it's practical before giving up on them.
cool will do that...only problem i can think of is someone handing me the bar..lol
i will probably do high reps on the cgbp
-
do you think it would be smart to work triceps with fast pace...moderate weight (8+ reps)...isolation movements...just to save the elbows?
actually i do go a little faster on arms because like i said you're not training as heavy and it's not as demanding on your whole body as larger bodypart movements so you could try that, 6 reps is usually as low as i go reps wise on arms.
-
do you think it would be smart to work triceps with fast pace...moderate weight (8+ reps)...isolation movements...just to save the elbows?
that actually a great idea, try them on the decline, incline, slight decline, slight incline, floor, another thing i see people doing sometimes is grabbing the long pulldown bar and putting it in the seated bench press machine and doing close grips like that.
-
actually i do go a little faster on arms because like i said you're not training as heavy and it's not as demanding on your whole body as larger bodypart movements so you could try that, 6 reps is usually as low as i go reps wise on arms.
thanks man ....im doing this routine now:
chest/back
legs
rest
shoulders/arms
rest
repeat....
so everything gets hit every 5th day....i noticed last week when i started doing this routine..that it goes alot of faster if i superset the arm part of the shoulder/arms workout.
-
that actually a great idea, try them on the decline, incline, slight decline, slight incline, floor, another thing i see people doing sometimes is grabbing the long pulldown bar and putting it in the seated bench press machine and doing close grips like that.
yeah your right..i watched gunther schlierkamp (cant spell his name lol) doing that in a training video i saw a few days ago...
damn lots of options...too many for me hehe
-
yeah your right..i watched gunther schlierkamp (cant spell his name lol) doing that in a training video i saw a few days ago...
damn lots of options...too many for me hehe
i always want to try those when i see guys do them but it's always on another bodypart day when i see it then i forget to do it and just do barbell close grips, another really cool movement i saw was in Layne Norton's video, he grabbed a 2x4 and put the board across the handles of the dip machine and did pushdowns on it.
-
i always want to try those when i see guys do them but it's always on another bodypart day when i see it then i forget to do it and just do barbell close grips, another really cool movement i saw was in Layne Norton's video, he grabbed a 2x4 and put the board across the handles of the dip machine and did pushdowns on it.
i saw bob cicherillo do that in the war of the worlds.....i had forgot about that...will have to try that too.... :)
trying new things keeps the training fun
to be honest i really dont like the heavy powerlifitng movements...deadlift, bench press, squats ....i like to isolate more...gives me a better pump which motivates me alot.
-
any more opinions?
always looking to learn more...
-
any more opinions?
always looking to learn more...
try hitting the tris from different angles... you can do palms down, palms in, palms up... same movement but different hand position will put more stress on different areas of the tricep.
-
try hitting the tris from different angles... you can do palms down, palms in, palms up... same movement but different hand position will put more stress on different areas of the tricep.
yeah im gonna do that...i have a triceps masterplan now;
pushdowns 4 set10-20reps
cable extensions behind the neck 4sets 8-12reps
one arm pushdowns or machine dips or close grip bench in a machine 4x8-12
im gonna do this for 2months and see what happens
will superset with biceps...damn feel good already just thinking about the pumps i will get... really looking forward to my arm workouts.
-
try some bodyweight extensions or "tiger dips" as some poeple call them, set up a Smith bar or a loaded bar in a power rack at about waist height and grab it and lower your body bending only at the elbows and reverse direction and press yourself up, like doing a push up but bending only at the elbows, very tough.
-
Try doing some sort of extension or skull crusher movement to failure. Heavy 8 to 10 reps then move on to close grip bench with no rest and do 8 to 10 reps with as much as you can arms right by your sides. then go to a cable and do push downs with a 5 sec squeeze for as many reps as you can with a fairly heavy weight. Like 6 reps. You tris will get such a huge pump! Now rest like 5 mins. Do two sets of this. I did this and my tris were sore for days! Then they grow like an 1 inch. I did give them a full week to recover though. Just thought I would share.
-
I wouldnt say they are overrated ..
but if you have a chest that develops easy...
id say cut back on them if you are trying to bring your tris up
-
I always like (and rely most on) movements I can “feel” working.
CGB just aren’t one of them, so I only do them once in a blue moon – relying more instead on dips.
Dips and CGB put a lot of the workload on the lateral triceps head.
So if you don’t care for one, try the other - you'll still be hitting a similar area.
do you think it would be smart to work triceps with fast pace...moderate weight (8+ reps)...isolation movements...just to save the elbows?
As has been mentioned, extension work will recruit more of the long head of the triceps – the one that accounts for the most upper arm mass.
Also mentioned here, extensions tend to wipe out many people’s elbows over time.
For many trainers – myself included – a great deal of elbow pain can be reduced / eliminated by going behind the head with the weight.
You can apply that to skull-crushers, overhead db ext., etc.
Bodyweight extensions and kneeling cable extensions bother me the least, and I do a version of them in almost every triceps workout.
One thing I’ve noticed with any triceps movement is that lowering the weight more slowly also reduces a bit of the pinching in the elbows. Explode up, but slow down some on the negative.
-
not overrated imo...great for adding raw bulk to the entire tricep group...must focus when doing them though, i once dropped a 150 pound bbell on my torso doing close grip bench....not fun
-
i would say they're great if done RIGHT! too many people use too narrow a grip and end up putting too much stress and strain on their wrist and elbows due to improper grip width. A close grip tend to be one that keeps your elbows nice and tight to your sides but still keeps your wrist inline with your forearms, etc. for a more efficient and pain free press. My close grip width is about 12 inches...or about my pinky on the ring with zero issues.
-
not overrated imo...great for adding raw bulk to the entire tricep group...must focus when doing them though, i once dropped a 150 pound bbell on my torso doing close grip bench....not fun
150 pounds!!!!!!! holy shit!!! :o ;D
-
I think the problem with CGB is that people try to press the weight like a normal bench with there hands close. There shoulders flare out and it becomes uncomfortable. How ever when the exercise is done correctly your tris will really fell it. Just do not flare your elbows even a little bit.
-
I think the problem with CGB is that people try to press the weight like a normal bench with there hands close.
I would say they're great if done RIGHT! too many people use too narrow a grip and end up putting too much stress and strain on their wrist and elbows due to improper grip width.
Like someone else said, there are plenty who don't feel it no matter what the ROM. I find dip machine and flared-elbow pushdowns hit the same lateral and medial heads better.
Definitely worth trying variations of any exercise before giving up on it; try these less known variations of CGBP that are actually better than the usual versions. Use a decline and an E-Z curl bar, which shfits the angle the muscles are hit and is much easier on the wrists.
http://www.myfittribe.com/videos/close-grip-ez-tricep-extension#
Other better versions of this in my opinion are to use machines for CGBP-the old vertical leg press machines while lying underneath, (and some of the newer ones can allow same) or a smith machine. With those machines you have far more leaway in terms of wrist angle because balance and stabilizers aren't issues, and thus the angle it hits the tris can make it more effective.
Also one of the big advantages with machines that's rarely acknowledged is that it's a whole lot safer and thus easier to train to failure, because there's a lot less downside if you get stuck with the weight. Free weights even with spotters aren't necessarily that great because let's face it most spotters don't spot that well, don't make the last few reps as good as they could be, and aren't as safe because the spotter isn't always as attentive as hoped.
This vertical leg press (and some of the newer angled ones where there's room to get under there) are arguably the BEST thing for CGBP both in terms of hitting the muscles and training harder into failure safely, without worry about being stuck with the weight.
-
Using the vertical leg press has always been something I thought was definitely worthwhile to try for close grip, glad to see someone put it into use. Personally I think CGBP are worth doing. Personally this is the way I approach triceps.
Pushdowns
EZ Extensions
then...Close Grip
Triceps are pretty good and hammered by then. It allows me to focus primarily on squeezing my triceps through the movement without much/if any shoulder or inner chest involvement.
-
my old gym had a vertical leg press with a special handle that one could attach to the platform and do close grip presses, the pump was incredible.
-
my old gym had a vertical leg press with a special handle that one could attach to the platform and do close grip presses, the pump was incredible.
Leg press and a machine sliding rail mechanism make this the best version there is. Most haven't tried it. Can also in some cases be done with some of the newer versions.
-
i see SO many goddamn guys wasting time doing extensions and kickbacks, skullcrushers and pushdowns, when if they did just 3-5 heavy sets of close-grip from chest to lockout their tris would be twice as big.
the best development my triceps ever got came from heavy board presses and close-grip bench. talk all you want about "hitting all three heads" and shit like that, just do heavy pressing. it'll work.
-
i see SO many goddamn guys wasting time doing extensions and kickbacks, skullcrushers and pushdowns, when if they did just 3-5 heavy sets of close-grip from chest to lockout their tris would be twice as big.
the best development my triceps ever got came from heavy board presses and close-grip bench. talk all you want about "hitting all three heads" and shit like that, just do heavy pressing. it'll work.
so true, i do olympic lifting three times a week, the fourth time is a "regular" workout when i do some chest, some back, and once in a while throw in 2-3 sets for biceps and triceps. when i switched over to oly, i feared my arms would shrink to nothingness but it did not happen, now i chuckle at the guys who do 12-16 sets for biceps/triceps and still cannot break 16" and cannot believe i wasted my time as well on all the arms exercises bullshit.
-
i see SO many goddamn guys wasting time doing extensions and kickbacks, skullcrushers and pushdowns, when if they did just 3-5 heavy sets of close-grip from chest to lockout their tris would be twice as big.
Crazy generalization made sillier by the fact that you don't have such great development to be congratulating yourself (again) on your wisdom.
Most of the top guys with great arms attribute the arm development primarily to those "silly" isolation exercises like curls and extensions, and all the top BBs do those isolations for most of their workouts including virtually all biceps work and at least 50 percent of triceps. This is fact.That includes Oliva, Coleman, Schwarzenegger, Scott. Coleman's top size exercises are extensions and curls. Mariusz Pudzianowski does those silly exercises and as a result is jacked in ways those other guys in WSM aren't who don't do em.
Also includes most pro football players with guns-they ask the coaches to do those isolation exercises just to get the arms, even though they're not part of the routine used for sports performance. No amount of macho-man mindset to lift heavy on only compound lifting can cover the same ground, otherwise these guyss wouldn't bother with em.
The prevalent, misguided logic applied by many is to guess that one must go as "heavy" as possible to get development, which is associated with compounds since more weight can be heaved. What the geniuses making that assumption always miss is that the real truth is that working up to heavy on ANY effective exericse leads to size. Anyone seriously believe that someone who works up to 150-200 lb. on preachers and extensions won't be big? Including kickbacks, which are often assumed to be just a "finishing" exercise. If they work for you and you eventually work up to heavy kickbacks, you'll have big tris.
This is not someone who should be making blanket assumptions, the development ain't that great to be speaking like it's all figured out. ;)
2 differing schools of thought, represented below:
-
when i switched over to oly, i feared my arms would shrink to nothingness but it did not happen
You're mistaking one cause for another. It's not hard to maintain development with any kind of lifing, which is not the same as growing more effectively with those exercises. Oliva was an Olympic lifter who clearly grew even more after switching to BB training. Mariusz Pudzianowski is another example, he's got great development that is not accident-he includes heavy biceps curls and extensions for that, he's not doing them for nothing just as none of the top BBs with great arms stick to just indirect compounds.
-
so true, i do olympic lifting three times a week, the fourth time is a "regular" workout when i do some chest, some back, and once in a while throw in 2-3 sets for biceps and triceps. when i switched over to oly, i feared my arms would shrink to nothingness but it did not happen, now i chuckle at the guys who do 12-16 sets for biceps/triceps and still cannot break 16" and cannot believe i wasted my time as well on all the arms exercises bullshit.
exactly. you'd be amazed at how much size you can keep or even make ignoring "conventional wisdom" and just lifting heavy. my "shoulder work" is pretty minimal these days aside from doing lots of pressing and heavy back works and frankly they look better than ever. a buddy of mine said if you're doing heavy shoulder presses and rows, there's not a need for a lot else.
ignore pumpster by the way. he's a keyboard warrior. he'll tell you about how he won bodybuilding competitions and powerlifting meets, but dodges and melts down whenever you challenge him to prove it. ::)
-
You're mistaking one cause for another. It's not hard to maintain development with any kind of lifing, which is not the same as growing more effectively with those exercises.
you may be right here, but you are also comparing me and MisterMagoo to juiced up bodybuilders/strongmen who may grow no matter what they do or don't do
-
you may be right here, but you are also comparing me and MisterMagoo to juiced up bodybuilders/strongmen who may grow no matter what they do or don't do
also worth pointing out.
people want to attribute "genetics" to the fact that ronnie trains heavy or jay trains light but both of them are gigantic, but let's not kid ourselves. they're on so much gear and other shit that it's more important THAT they train than HOW they train. remember that mariusz also failed a WSM drug test.
-
Shame on you Magoo - lifting heavy ass weight and still not as big aas Ronnie :D
-
also worth pointing out.
people want to attribute "genetics" to the fact that ronnie trains heavy or jay trains light but both of them are gigantic, but let's not kid ourselves. they're on so much gear and other shit that it's more important THAT they train than HOW they train. remember that mariusz also failed a WSM drug test.
for the record...on Jay's: New, Improved, and Beyond DVD (2003), Jay does incline presses with 405, bent barbell rows with 405, and hacks with 8 plates on each side.
On his "One Step Closer" DVD (2005), He does Free weight T-Bar Rows with 9 plates, Deadlifts with 495 (3 weeks out), and standing Military Presses with 245 (2 weeks out from the Olympia).
On his latest DVD, he does flat dumbell bench presses with 170lbs for 13 reps.
So I know what you are saying, because nobody trains heavy like Ronnie. But Jay does doesnt train light by any means.
-
close grip bench presses are BEYOND a staple. thats is all.
-
Close grip bench is the meat of my tricep routine. Everything else is just side dishes.
-
It depends on the individual in my own honest strong opinion.
Personally,they hurt my wrists so i stray away from them.
Not to mention,Not all that swell on my elbows either.
I get a very intense pump from Tricep Pressdowns so i'm not really missing anything "Tricep PumpWise".
-
did arnold ever did close grip bench press . not sure . nor oliva . slight decline close grip are better in my opinion
-
you may be right here, but you are also comparing me and MisterMagoo to juiced up bodybuilders/strongmen who may grow no matter what they do or don't do
Most who attribute all the developmental differences to juicing really don't know, have no compelling basis of comparison for the assumptions. It's largely speculation, largely carried out by non-juicers who let's face it must be depressed to see huge disparities in development between themselves and others. Magoo's a good example, doesn't have a great physique then resorts to the "all drugs" crap as the excuse. Textbook
IMO the fundamentals of training do not change due to drugs, not at all. To make the jump in assumptions that all the fundamentals of training go out the window with/without drugs is silly. The idea that Coleman, Schwarzenegger or anyone else saw great development just looking at weights is farcical. In truth, they still develop for the same reasons anyone else does, but the development is accelerated and more pronounced, just as one would see in any number of fields with people who are more gifted.
Also, no one wants to admit that they may not really be training hard, or smart. Not everyone is equal, in terms of the determination to train really hard for years, or to train wisely. By training wisely I mean trying and then finding the most effective exercises. Close grips for example, do very little for some and lots for others. I find them useless.
ignore pumpster by the way. he's a keyboard warrior. he'll tell you about how he won bodybuilding competitions and powerlifting meets, but dodges and melts down whenever you challenge him to prove it.
Not a question of if but rather how far i'm now lodged in his lol the personal trolling from this angry dweeb is predictable but the funniest thing about this clown is that his pics don't prove that he knows much at all yet he's constantly talking out his ass. He's really convinced himself that he's wise well beyond his actual knowledge, that i'm sure of. I see nothing in his pics or his comments to suggest any depth of knowledge or any degree of hard work in the workouts-not an impressive physique.