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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: linden on November 12, 2008, 12:25:13 PM
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I rep 200 lbs on my last set of wide grip pulldown and I only weight 187. But I am terrible at chins and can't get that many reps. I use good form on my pulldowns Im not throwing my self backwards to get it down and I use the same grip, so why is this?
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I bet it is because the pulley system on you pull downs makes the weight less then 200 lbs. Just do pull ups til you can not do anymore then drop set to lat pull downs. It really works well and helps you get the most out of your pull ups.
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Ya, it could be the pulley, some don't represent anywhere near the real weight. Also the fact that pulldowns and chins aren't exactly the same motion and the resistance is felt from different angles. In one you're physically moving yourself thru a range of motion, in the other you're stationary.
Chins are typically hard to master at the beginning, the only way to do it is to keep doing them for a good long while, during which time you will eventually see the reps go up. Also try using negatives on chins, even if you can't pull yourself up. The grip used is another difference.
They're similar but it's worth doing both if you can, though i think one or the other gives similar results.
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always felt like chinups are a waste of time for most guys, 95 percent of guys you see doing them are doing them wrong, half and quarter reps, kicking their legs, swinging, all while hanging your body fron an overhead bar, way too harmful to the shoulders, i've always thought pulldowns are a better movement, better focus on the muscle, you can vary where you pull the bar too, better pump and feel in the lats, etc. just my 2 cents.
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always felt like chinups are a waste of time for most guys
+1 just because pulldowns are very similar. There are some sweet pulldown machines on the market now that are hard to beat for hitting the lats very very well, as good as it gets. Here's one i like, pulldown action but slightly different angle than chins or standard pulldowns would allow. Really fried the lats the other day. Pulldowns are also alot less exhausting than chins.
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There's no substitute for the many variations of chins IMO.
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+1 just because pulldowns are very similar. There are some sweet pulldown machines on the market now that are hard to beat for hitting the lats very very well, as good as it gets. Here's one i like, pulldown action but slightly different angle than chins or standard pulldowns would allow. Really fried the lats the other day. Pulldowns are also alot less exhausting than chins.
yeah we've got that pulldown machine at my gym, i think it's a Nautilus Nitro plate loaded unit and yes it does pump the lats beyond belief, you can also do it one arm at a time very easily, awesome machine, they've also got a seated row that's kind of similar.
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i rate weighted chins highly. Done with a full ROM great exercise
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I think any pull up variation is a good movement to do but it needs to be done right, as Quaker said, because if you are going to do a half assed pull up you might as well just do a pulldown. Personally I think for a bodybuilder both are a good idea. They hit the muscle in different ways. In terms of general strength, it's always good to know you can pull your own body weight up. ;D
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I think any pull up variation is a good movement to do but it needs to be done right, as Quaker said, because if you are going to do a half assed pull up you might as well just do a pulldown. Personally I think for a bodybuilder both are a good idea. They hit the muscle in different ways. In terms of general strength, it's always good to know you can pull your own body weight up. ;D
i agree, one thing though is that the heavier you become and the more muscle you build the harder it becomes to do chins properly, i've seen one decently built 240 pound plus guy in my life do chins PROPERLY and he did maybe 6-8 reps.
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what do u mean by properly QO?
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what do u mean by properly QO?
well i've always felt that AT THE VERY LEAST your entire head should easily clear the bar and for the best results you should try to touch your chest to the bar, there used to be a bodybuilding show on ESPN and there was a pretty good sized bodybuilder named Rick Valente who did them that way, he would touch his chest to the bar on each rep and he was a big thick dude too.
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The best option would probably to use one of the thicker JumpStretch bands and use it to do assisted pullups - supposedly it's better than pulldowns and better than assisted pullup machines:
(http://home.eol.ca/~philla/bodyessence/images/bandchinups.jpg)
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i dont touch my chest to the bar but my chin clears the bar by 2" on every rep i do.
I have back again on tuesday i think gonna try it then see if i can touch chest, I do right down though always and no momentum shit
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i dont touch my chest to the bar but my chin clears the bar by 2" on every rep i do.
I have back again on tuesday i think gonna try it then see if i can touch chest, I do right down though always and no momentum shit
you're pretty strong on chins then man.
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The best option would probably to use one of the thicker JumpStretch bands and use it to do assisted pullups - supposedly it's better than pulldowns and better than assisted pullup machines:
(http://home.eol.ca/~philla/bodyessence/images/bandchinups.jpg)
fuck the bands ill take that female :P
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you're pretty strong on chins then man.
2 kid PLers in my gym. I train with them. One posts on here though wont tell me his handle...says i have argued with him before lol
anyway...
one at 62.5kg chins 52.5kg...other at 73kg can do a OAC. Impressive. Lots of good chinners in my gym. My work sets are with 44lbs which is hardly astounding but that puts my weight at 275lbs
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i agree, one thing though is that the heavier you become and the more muscle you build the harder it becomes to do chins properly, i've seen one decently built 240 pound plus guy in my life do chins PROPERLY and he did maybe 6-8 reps.
Agreed, most guys end up doing half reps and/or just using their biceps. For bigger guys I think the assisted pull up machine could be a good capper for a work out. Get all the crazy lifts out of the way and finish off that way. If you were a bodybuilder and only had one to use I think I'd say pulldowns, unless you are Arnold and can rep out on pullups.
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Actually the more heavier and muscle mass you build the more stronger you should be in the chins or any other exercise. That's the whole idea behind serious training . So approaching chinning with the 5X5 system, for example, anyone should be able, after awhile, to be using some pretty impressive weight in chinning.
Just because anyone gains that muscular weight does not mean that their strength in the chin will stay the same or be even less because of increased bwt. Seen big men do sets of 2's or 3's in the chin with quite a few plates. Trouble is, most BB'er's think higher reps should always be done with chinning. Not true, treat it like a power movement and see what happens.
Some men have a natural stronger ratio pull than to their push. These are the guy's who can chin, and reap the benefits of this mass builder, advancing up to using heavier weights strapped on. Reverse is true of a natural stronger push. These guy's seem to have not all that trouble using 400 and above after awhile. Guy's who want to up their benching may do well by adding heavy chins to their programs.
Gironda made the wide grip chin, touching the upper chest to the bar each rep and hold for a second, popular. Hits the full contraction of the lat's and other back muscle groups. Most guy's pull to about eye to chin level. At times that may include half reps. Whatever method work for you, use it to your advantage. (hint: partial reps and heavy negatives work very well when wanting to increase size and power in any form of chin's).
With pulldowns, the weight of the hips/butt/ legs are taken out of the equation. With full chins, they are not. You are lifting more full bwt. Which makes it a more demanding and productive exercise for most. Old BB'ing theory that a body lifted lifted in space (like chinning or dips) are more effected for mass building. Interesting anyway. Good Luck.
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Arnold always said pull ups should not be replaced by pulldowns.
But now in the gyms there are many new back machines.
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Arnold always said pull ups should not be replaced by pulldowns.
But now in the gyms there are many new back machines.
Ya he was one of those who had a preference. He's a student of BB and gave his training methods serious thought. However i would say that in a few cases here and there his ideas were debatable, including this example. I don't think there's the big difference between them, it's just that he's had this personal preference for a long time. Also the machines are better now in various ways.
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Yes the machines now are more sophisticated.
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i rate weighted chins highly. Done with a full ROM great exercise
full ROM I take the short ROM.
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full ROM I take the short ROM.
All good as long as the muscle's worked.
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The best option would probably to use one of the thicker JumpStretch bands and use it to do assisted pullups - supposedly it's better than pulldowns and better than assisted pullup machines:
(http://home.eol.ca/~philla/bodyessence/images/bandchinups.jpg)
what a fag he isnt even looking at her cola
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what a fag he isnt even looking at her cola
haha have to agree.
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I do a minimum of fifty chins per back workout. My bodyweight is 192 @ 12%BF. When I am finished, regardless of how many sets it took, I start loading the weight belt. When I can no longer use a full range of motion, I will stop chinning and start rowing.
Works 4 me.
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Arnold was Mr O for a reason.
Actually he wasn't known for great lats.
Some people are naturally good at chins; it's a great exercise but so are pulldowns.
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pulldowns tend to become a wide grip row when things start to become "heavy" for most people.. plus chins are significantly more difficult for the most part. Both have their place..
if you want strong lats.. super pullovers are a bitch..
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If its large, wide, thick lats you want then you better make the underhand wide-grip chin the first movement of your back routine.
Even if you cannot pull your fat ass up to the mid-point, your body will adapt fast. Only your body weight is needed unless you are
on a contest diet. With time you will become stronger as your lats grow wider. You'll eventually be able to squeeze off 4-8 good clean
reps for 3 sets. That's all you need for this move to get results.
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If its large, wide, thick lats you want then you better make the underhand wide-grip chin the first movement of your back routine.
Even if you cannot pull your fat ass up to the mid-point, your body will adapt fast. Only your body weight is needed unless you are
on a contest diet. With time you will become stronger as your lats grow wider. You'll eventually be able to squeeze off 4-8 good clean
reps for 3 sets. That's all you need for this move to get results.
-Pulldowns are just as effective, i've used both.
-Wide grip ain't necessary actually, that's one of those myths IMO. Arthur Jones, who knew something about working out, espoused a medium hammer grip. My own experience agrees with exactly this as well as with even closer grips, for width.
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Pulldowns are for lazy lifters
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-Pulldowns are just as effective, i've used both.
-Wide grip ain't necessary actually, that's one of those myths IMO. Arthur Jones, who knew something about working out, espoused a medium hammer grip. My own experience agrees with exactly this as well as with even closer grips, for width.
do you support Arthur Jones's HIT method aswell?
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do you support Arthur Jones's HIT method aswell?
Definitely a viable alternative. The main difference is whether it appeals to someone psychologically rather than a difference in effectiveness, because if it's done as it's supposed to be done, it's gruelling and requires a training partner to inflict further pain. Some or maybe most who train in HIT fashion don't actually take it to the extreme intensity required, because doing so is very challenging. I like Yate's modified, slightly less minimal version better.
Pulldowns are for lazy lifters
LOL this from getbig's #1 keyboard warrior, who does marathon volume workouts with low intensity, never goes to failure or sweats, and trains muscles very infrequently while electing instead to spend most of life on getbig. :-*
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I would never take the time to set all that stuff up. Even if it was already set up I wouldn't do it. Dumbell pull overs.
Machine pullovers are better than either of those, takes the hands and arms out of it and makes it more intense. Using cables with ab straps attached is the best approximation if there's no machine.
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Machine pulldowns is like doing b/w pullups on a chinning bar except with just a % of your b/w
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...you can vary where you pull the bar too...
I think this is just an issue of resistance. Increase the weight so far, and you wont hav much of a choice in where you pull the bar to.
If you are strong enough at pulldowns/ pullups, you will be able to control where you pull yourself to in a pullup.
I consider myself quite strong at pullups and so can touch the bar with my chin or, if i want, near my naval.
(Pretty piss-poor job of explaining that but sure...)
Goudy's very humble. Very strong on chins. Done an easy rep with 40kg added just the other day. Probably capable of a set of 18-20 to failure, though that's not his thing so we may never know.
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which is more comfortable? do that one.
for every dorian yates that swears by underhand work, there's an arnie that says do everything wide-grip. for every guy swearing by bodyweight exercises, another one says you get better control and isolation from machines.
me, i got my best from a) dead hang pullups, and b) parallel grip pullups. those are the best for me.