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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: sculpture on December 08, 2008, 02:37:03 PM
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Last week was my yearly assessment where i max out on various lifts just to see if i'd gained any strength over the year. I managed a bench of 120kg and deadlift of 200kg - not exactly "monster weights" but i'm only a lean 80kg and aren't too concerned with getting super massive
Anyway i ve always doen militarys as a standard and thought to try my max at the push press and cleaned 100kg and push pressed it 3 times. Again not exactly epic but i impressed myself enough to continue to work at and get better and maybe even strive for 3 plates a side for a max. I'm not looking to drop fully under the bar but perhaps just slightly a la power clean.
I'm looking for advice on how to implement it and make it teh core of a workout.
Currently my shoulder routine is:
Standing military press (cleaned initially from ground) 3 sets 6- 10 reps
Hang pull 3 sets 5 (explosive upright row)
Seated dumbell press 3 sets 10-15
Dumbell shrug 3 sets 15
I'm thinking for the new routine perhaps
Cleans 3 sets 3-5 reps
Military press - 3 sets 6 - 10
Dumbell shrugs 3 sets 15
Standing alternate dumbell press 3 sets 10-15
Any advice would be great
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Last week was my yearly assessment where i max out on various lifts just to see if i'd gained any strength over the year. I managed a bench of 120kg and deadlift of 200kg - not exactly "monster weights" but i'm only a lean 80kg and aren't too concerned with getting super massive
Anyway i ve always doen militarys as a standard and thought to try my max at the push press and cleaned 100kg and push pressed it 3 times. Again not exactly epic but i impressed myself enough to continue to work at and get better and maybe even strive for 3 plates a side for a max. I'm not looking to drop fully under the bar but perhaps just slightly a la power clean.
I'm looking for advice on how to implement it and make it teh core of a workout.
Currently my shoulder routine is:
Standing military press (cleaned initially from ground) 3 sets 6- 10 reps
Hang pull 3 sets 5 (explosive upright row)
Seated dumbell press 3 sets 10-15
Dumbell shrug 3 sets 15
I'm thinking for the new routine perhaps
Cleans 3 sets 3-5 reps
Military press - 3 sets 6 - 10
Dumbell shrugs 3 sets 15
Standing alternate dumbell press 3 sets 10-15
Any advice would be great
My philosophy has always been power first. Cleans being a power exercise should be first in the workout.
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My philosophy has always been power first. Cleans being a power exercise should be first in the workout.
QFT!
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My philosophy has always been power first. Cleans being a power exercise should be first in the workout.
That's what he did.
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so what rep/sets scheme do you suggest?
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3-5 sets 1-3 reps
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4 to 7 reps of 3 sets each. Into serious strength training, set of 2's or 3's for 6 to 8 sets. 2 to 3 minutes between sets. Good Luck.
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Do them on back day for starters and after a couple of good warmup sets,hit 4-5 sets of 8 reps working on form above all else.
Once you`ve mastered the lift,go with what Joe (Coach) or JPM recommened.........both gave great advice.
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Do them on back day for starters and after a couple of good warmup sets,hit 4-5 sets of 8 reps working on form above all else.
Once you`ve mastered the lift,go with what Joe (Coach) or JPM recommened.........both gave great advice.
IMO, lower reps (1-3) seem to work better for mastering the technique in a clean for most people. Seems like once you get over 5 reps the technique just goes to complete shit. I've had better luck having people do 10-12 sets of singles or doubles with a minute or two rest in between to get the form down, then add reps as they get better.
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I agree,but if max poundages are used from the beginning,form will suffer.
I`m talking about moderate weight until form is mastered.
If he already has the lift down,then I definately agree with you Zach.
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I agree,but if max poundages are used from the beginning,form will suffer.
I`m talking about moderate weight until form is mastered.
If he already has the lift down,then I definately agree with you Zach.
I'm talking about light to moderate weight, not max. Even if they're just starting with the bar, I only have them go up to 2-3 reps each set. There's too much to think about in the beginning to be able to do a high-rep set effectively, even with little weight. Again, IMO.
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IMO, lower reps (1-3) seem to work better for mastering the technique in a clean for most people. Seems like once you get over 5 reps the technique just goes to complete shit. I've had better luck having people do 10-12 sets of singles or doubles with a minute or two rest in between to get the form down, then add reps as they get better.
I agree and i'd hoped someone would confirm my beliefs. I ve cleaned always when lifting but not as a specific exercise and always felt that the light weight never hammered perfect technique into me.
Cheers
I 'll probs to 5 sets of triples or doubles with 100kg max
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I'm talking about light to moderate weight, not max. Even if they're just starting with the bar, I only have them go up to 2-3 reps each set. There's too much to think about in the beginning to be able to do a high-rep set effectively, even with little weight. Again, IMO.
I see your point,and it makes sense.
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I agree. Low reps with an Olympic lift. Using a whole body routine your should use it first. When using a split put it in back day first. Power cleans is a power exercise like the name implies. High reps leads to form break down and possible injuries. 3 sets of 3 reps will kick your ass prior to back day.
The first thing I noticed when I started using power cleans was my vertical leap and sprinting ability instantly went up. The speed used x distance the bar travels leads to some impressive power production. Also from my calves, thighs, lower and upper back, traps and other body parts were hit hard by the lift. It truly involves a total athletic movement.
If your up for a further challenge try power snatches. I started the olympic lifts late in my lifting career and I wish I started them in my youth. I also found the old fashion method of split lifting for cleans and snatches to be great for athletic transfer of power.
At work they have a dummy used for rescue training that weighs about 185 or so. It's very awkward to lift. No handles and it bends. I found that because of power cleans I could lift it easily to my shoulder while some 400lbs bench pressers couldn't do it in many attempts.
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Any olympic lift takes along time to get the correct mechanics, one wrong move and your done. This is just one reason why it should not be done in the middle of a workout. That being said there are several reason why it should be done in the BEGINNING of the workout as a single exercise. The first being that is a power exercise, power being (and there is some controversy on this) 1-3 reps with 3-5min rest periods, IMO 5 min is too long and 3 is just about right.
The other reasons being of course correct mechanics but also to excite the CNS to help reduce injury for the supplemental exercises. Also (for the athlete) to help with explosive moves.
Again, Power first, then strength then hypertrophy in that order.
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Actually you would want to do a higher rep range when learning the clean, or any other quick movement, not a lower 3 rep or so. Also include most every other compound exercise for that matter. Getting the form, timing and speed of the lift will be very important at the first learning period. Higher reps do that.That is good insurance against future injuries through bad performance of an exercise.
The muscle response and impulse pattern, that are learned on any lift, is important just as well. That is why repping it out, with a very light weigh or even the empty bar is an important start. Flexibility comes in here also. 15 to 20 light reps sets, in many workouts, sets up the body very well for future heavier weights.
Even simple learned and done movements like squats and DL's are performed so badly that they invite injury's. Just checkout some of the video's on GetBig.
Cleans, and the Olympic lifts, can be transferred to BB'ing type exercises for 8-12 (general) reps once the correct form is learned. Do not need any super weight on the bar. For BB'ing, moderate weight will give an excellent muscle mass program. If you know what you are really doing and how to place them in a result producing training program.
Am familiar with the heavy first idea. Also the lighter first version, which suggest that this will ready and prime the body for a heavier work load to follow. Take your pick, neither is cut in stone. What works for you works for you. But they both affect the CNS strongly. Good Luck.
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I have to disagree about the high reps, I've tried teaching people that way and after about the first 4-5 reps their form goes to complete shit. Too much to think about, my clients tend to respond better to doing 3-4 reps at a time and then taking a short break, going again for another 3-4, etc.
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Consider teaching someone to play a 6 string. If they do not get the cords right the first couple of times, would you have them give it up? No, because it is a mater of practice and patience. It is a learning experience , which involves the motor reflexes and muscle memory to a greater extent. Same with learning a lifting exercise like the clean or any other movement for that matter. Have to rep it out, over and over again, in either case. All part of exercise science.
I do not have clients, but I do work with high school and college athletes. Repeating a certain drill, form or exercise will produce results that can make just about any task improve and second nature to them. Intellect is not always a part of this learning curve. Reps seem to be the key in all of this.
All this applies very well to Olympic moves and any other form of exercise development. So I do wish you Good Luck with all your clients.
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Consider teaching someone to play a 6 string. If they do not get the cords right the first couple of times, would you have them give it up? No, because it is a mater of practice and patience. It is a learning experience , which involves the motor reflexes and muscle memory to a greater extent.
Having learned to play the guitar when I was younger, the best advice I ever got was when I started to get too frustrated with a lesson, to take a short break and come back to it a few minutes later. I believe in that concept in teaching anything - guitar, weight lifts, whatever. When frustration sets in, which I see a lot with complex lifts like the clean, snatch, squat, etc., any additional reps are a waste because they're no longer in the right mindset. I've tried it both ways and adapted to what's worked for me.
As an aside, I like threads like this with some good friendly debate back and forth. A nice little break from the usual defensive attitude that can come out at times on the training board.
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I have to disagree about the high reps, I've tried teaching people that way and after about the first 4-5 reps their form goes to complete shit. Too much to think about, my clients tend to respond better to doing 3-4 reps at a time and then taking a short break, going again for another 3-4, etc.
agreed. i am an olympic lifter and never did more than 4 reps per set, even when learning correct technique or warming up, usually we go for doubles/triples.
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agreed. i am an olympic lifter and never did more than 4 reps per set, even when learning correct technique or warming up, usually we go for doubles/triples.
Yep.
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fuck cleans that shit is cardio
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fuck cleans that shit is cardio
Huh? learn your energy systems.
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fuck cleans that shit is cardio
no, in my profession anything over three reps is cardio ;D
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fuck cleans that shit is cardio
Aren't you the guy that argued with half the guys on the training log board for most of a 10-page thread claiming that cleans are a bad exercise for bodybuilders but upright rows are fine because they work different muscle groups?
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Aren't you the guy that argued with half the guys on the training log board for most of a 10-page thread claiming that cleans are a bad exercise for bodybuilders but upright rows are fine because they work different muscle groups?
wasn't that another idiot? ;D