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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Tre on December 09, 2008, 06:50:28 AM
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(http://info.detnews.com/dn/pix/2005/10/17/asec/a017-jobsbankworkers-1005y_10-17-2005_FE900L3.jpg)
"I felt like I was useless - like I was put out to pasture," says Dan Cisco, right, with Dale Hall, Berlin Scott and Sylvester Martin, other idled autoworkers, at Rex's restaurant in Wayne.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm
Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work
Big 3 and suppliers pay billions to keep downsized UAW members on payroll in decades-long deal.
By Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News
WAYNE -- Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing.
As part of its restructuring under bankruptcy, Delphi is actively pressing the union to give up the program.
With Wall Street wondering how automakers can afford to pay thousands of workers to do nothing as their market share withers, the union is likely to hear a similar message from the Big Three when their contracts with the UAW expire in 2007 -- if not sooner.
"It's an albatross around their necks," said Steven Szakaly, an economist with the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. "It's a huge number of workers doing nothing. That has a very large effect on their future earnings outlook."
General Motors Corp. has roughly 5,000 workers in its jobs bank. Delphi has about 4,000 in its version of the same program. Some 2,100 workers are in DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group's job security program. Ford had 1,275 in its jobs bank as of Sept. 25. The pending closure of Ford's assembly plant in Loraine, Ohio, could add significantly to that total. Those numbers could swell in coming years as GM and Ford prepare to close more plants.
Detroit automakers declined to discuss the programs in detail or say exactly how much they are spending, but the four-year labor contracts they signed with the UAW in 2003 established contribution caps that give a good idea of the size of the expense.
According to those documents, GM agreed to contribute up to $2.1 billion over four years. DaimlerChrysler set aside $451 million for its program, along with another $50 million for salaried employees covered under the contract. Ford, which also maintained responsibility for Visteon Corp.'s UAW employees, agreed to contribute $944 million.
Delphi pledged to contribute $630 million. In August, however, Delphi Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Robert S. "Steve" Miller said the company spent more than $100 million on its jobs bank program in the second quarter alone.
"Can we keep losing $400 million a year paying for workers in the jobs bank and $400 million a year on operations? No, we cannot deal with that indefinitely," Miller said in a recent interview with The Detroit News. "We can't wait until 2007."
Guaranteed employment
The jobs bank was established during 1984 labor contract talks between the UAW and the Big Three. The union, still reeling from the loss of 500,000 jobs during the recession of the late 1970s and early 1980s, was determined to protect those who were left. Detroit automakers were eager to win union support to boost productivity through increased automation and more production flexibility.
The result was a plan to guarantee pay and benefits for union members whose jobs fell victim to technological progress or plant restructurings. In most cases, workers end up in the jobs bank only after they have exhausted their government unemployment benefits, which are also supplemented by the companies through a related program. In some cases, workers go directly into the program and the benefits can last until they are eligible to retire or return to the factory floor.
By making it so expensive to keep paying idled workers, the UAW thought Detroit automakers would avoid layoffs. By discouraging layoffs, the union thought it could prevent outsourcing.
That strategy has worked but at the expense of the domestic auto industry's long-term viability.
American automakers have produced cars and trucks even when there is little market demand for them, forcing manufacturers to offer big rebates and discounts.
"Sometimes they just push product on us," said Bill Holden Jr., general manager of Holden Dodge Inc. in Dover, Del., who said this does not go over well with the dealers. "But they've got these contracts with the union."
In Detroit's battle against Asian and European competitors that are unencumbered by such labor costs, the job banks have become a major competitive disadvantage.
Breaking the banks
Analysts say the jobs bank could be a bigger issue than health care in the 2007 contract negotiations, particularly at Ford. It has a younger work force than GM, meaning any workers Ford sends to the bench are likely to stay there for a while.
"Ford is under pressure from investors to cut costs," said Roland Zullo, a research scientist at the University of Michigan's Institute of Labor and Industrial Relations. "At the same time, the unions are going to be under pressure to protect jobs."
Given that, he expects a compromise that allows for the jobs bank to continue but not on the scale of the current programs. "There's going to be a lot of give and take," he said.
But does the jobs bank make any sense in a climate of shrinking profits and declining market share?
"Labor wants the (jobs bank) because they want protection for their members," Zullo said. But he added that the jobs bank was also designed to help the companies by ensuring that skilled workers did not take their talents elsewhere.
"Companies invest in training," he said. "It protects that investment."
The investment only makes sense when viewed from a long-term perspective, a vantage point Wall Street is not known to favor.
"If they're going after the job banks, that would signal to me that the folks at the top have lost faith in their ability to recoup market share," Zullo said. "That would suggest to me that they really don't see a turnaround."
Analysts and labor experts believe some sort of compromise is inevitable as pressure builds on Detroit automakers to lower operating costs.
"The union probably realizes the money to pay for these programs probably doesn't exist," Szakaly said. "There's going to have to be some give on the jobs bank."
While the job banks may exemplify the sort of excesses that give unions a bad name, experts say it is wrong to cast all the blame in the direction of Solidarity House. He said the leaders of GM, Ford and Chrysler also bear some responsibility for the current problems.
"If these guys built cars people wanted, this wouldn't even be an issue," Szakaly said.
'Put out to pasture'
That view was echoed by Dan Cisco, another member of the jobs bank at Michigan Truck, as he drained a cup of coffee with Pool and other idled workers at Rex's restaurant in Wayne last week.
Ten members of UAW Local 900 are currently assigned to the jobs bank at Michigan Truck. They are all gun-welder repairmen -- or "gunnies." It is a classification each says they earned through decades of hard work.
And none of them is ready to give it up.
While some might envy their life of leisure, workers like Cisco, 56, feel humiliated by the program.
"I felt like I was useless -- like I was put out to pasture," he said. "It's just like how they treated the veterans. During the war, we were heroes. When we came back ... "
Cisco adjusts his cap, emblazoned with the familiar silhouette of a captive American POW, and sighs.
Michigan Truck, which builds the Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator full-size SUVs, used to be one of Ford's most profitable plants. Today, the nation is turning away from the big trucks and sport utility vehicles it builds.
Cisco, Pool and eight other gunnies from Michigan Truck have been in the jobs bank program since their positions were eliminated in July. They all have more than 36 years with Ford and are among the highest-paid workers in the plant. They say the company is asking them to accept one of the $35,000 retirement packages it is offering to trim its blue-collar headcount.
Most say they have no interest in retiring -- or spending the rest of their careers doing crossword puzzles.
"We want training," Dale Hall said.
Classes are available, the workers said. They have been invited to take courses on bicycle repair, home wiring and poker. Silk-flower arranging is also available.
"They might as well just give us a basket-weaving class, set us in the corner and let us feed the pigeons," Cisco said.
Community service
Not everyone in the jobs bank is spending their time marking it.
Dan Costilla, a member of UAW Local 602 in Lansing, was a body shop worker at GM's Lansing car assembly plant until it was closed in May. Now, instead of grinding joints, he rides herd over 16 of his former plantmates, making sure they keep their appointments at the local thrift store or Head Start program.
"I'm making sure that everything's going smooth," he said.
In the five months since Costilla and his co-workers have been unemployed, they have been busy mowing lawns for the handicapped, patching roofs for senior citizens and chaperoning youngsters on field trips to the zoo. It is all part of a community service effort organized by the union, with the support of the company.
"They realized you could only sit so long at the job bank office," Costilla said. "Your bones, they get sore after a while sitting down."
Bob Bowen, former president of UAW Local 849 in Ypsilanti, said the original intent of the jobs bank program was that idled workers would be gainfully employed on community projects or learning new skills -- real ones that they could actually use on the assembly line.
"The idea was not to have people loafing," Bowen said. "But that was a concern."
The problem, he said, lies in the way the jobs bank is administered.
Instead of setting up a central authority to manage them, responsibility was largely left to union locals across the country. Some organized community projects and job training. Others passed out decks of cards and hooked up VCRs.
Ken Pool said he can only take so many more World War II documentaries and crossword puzzles.
He and the other members of Michigan Truck's jobs bank planned to meet with a lawyer. They have already filed numerous grievances, accusing the company of age discrimination, but have heard nothing from the union or the company.
Now they are going to see if the courts can help.
As for Costilla and his colleagues, they are getting ready to go back to work at GM's new Delta Township plant. Costilla acknowledges that many of the union members are not looking forward to going back to work at the factory.
"The majority of us would rather stay here doing what we're doing," he said.
"You're not on the line, chasing a car."
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that $25 or 34 billion bailout will be paying for THIS? lol...
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I can't believe I never heard of this before.
How did they manage to keep this crap secret for so long?
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I can't believe I never heard of this before.
How did they manage to keep this crap secret for so long?
Very easy - its called corrupt unions and corrupt executives.
The disgusting vermin executives were happy bleeding the company dry in bonuses etc, and the disgusting lazy vermin UAW was happy being paid high wages and benes.
Basically, both hubs were getting greased.
Now the schmuck taxpayer is being asked to bail them out.
No way. no bailout.
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Yep, this is a part of what needs to be fixed. Workers are also paid for short periods of decreased production, where they are essentially laid off for weeks to months and collect 80-90% of their wages.
Decker, how do you feel about these union benefits?
As the product, the executive packages, and manager bonus structures need to change, so does the contract with the UAW.
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Yep, this is a part of what needs to be fixed. Workers are also paid for short periods of decreased production, where they are essentially laid off for weeks to months and collect 80-90% of their wages.
Decker, how do you feel about these union benefits?
As the product, the executive packages, and manager bonus structures need to change, so does the contract with the UAW.
Why bother - you know what answer is going to be.
CEO this, CEO that.
Bush this, Bush That
Capitiism this, Capitilism that.
In the deranged liberal mind, Unions can never do wrong and the management is always evil. Its truly an infantile way of thinking about things, especially all things related to business.
The issue as to why the US auto's are not doing well compared to the competitors is very easy and very simple:
1. Produce products that are not on par with that of Japan or Germany
2. Overpay execs and management.
3. Overpay Unions.
4. Have more retirees than actual workers.
5. Provide a sub-par warranty.
6. Produce a product that no one wants.
7. Pay people not to work.
Is it that hard to figure out????????????
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Yep, this is a part of what needs to be fixed. Workers are also paid for short periods of decreased production, where they are essentially laid off for weeks to months and collect 80-90% of their wages.
Decker, how do you feel about these union benefits?
As the product, the executive packages, and manager bonus structures need to change, so does the contract with the UAW.
I don't know the particulars of the negotiated deal. As for getting paid for downtime, I got no problem with that. Ask any salaried person in the country if they are productive every minute of every workday.
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they also apparently can turn down a job if offered and still be allowed to collect their wages... ??? fuking we should be rioting.
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Why bother - you know what answer is going to be.
CEO this, CEO that.
Bush this, Bush That
Capitiism this, Capitilism that.
In the deranged liberal mind, Unions can never do wrong and the management is always evil. Its truly an infantile way of thinking about things, especially all things related to business.
The issue as to why the US auto's are not doing well compared to the competitors is very easy and very simple:
1. Produce products that are not on par with that of Japan or Germany
2. Overpay execs and management.
3. Overpay Unions.
4. Have more retirees than actual workers.
5. Provide a sub-par warranty.
6. Produce a product that no one wants.
7. Pay people not to work.
Is it that hard to figure out????????????
Do you really think that your 'lean and mean' talk about competition is something new?
Have you stopped for one minute and thought through the ramifications of your 'lean and mean' proposals?
I don't think you have.
It's the Unions that built the middle class of this country.
All your palliatives do is ensure the result that our middle class will disappear and a more desperate life will await our working class.
Congratulations! There's the result of your lean and mean global competition.
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they also apparently can turn down a job if offered and still be allowed to collect their wages... ??? fuking we should be rioting.
Yeah, storm the living rooms of what's left of middle america to make sure all profits are directed to the monied elites.
You and 333333 just can't wait until the status of the american worker is equal to the status of sweatshop slaves in India and Pakistan.
That's economic justice!
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Yeah, storm the living rooms of what's left of middle america to make sure all profits are directed to the monied elites.
You and 333333 just can't wait until the status of the american worker is equal to the status of sweatshop slaves in India and Pakistan.
That's economic justice!
my thoughts were to storm the living rooms of the monied elite and union leaders but thanks for throwing words in my mouth.
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my thoughts were to storm the living rooms of the monied elite and union leaders but thanks for throwing words in my mouth.
Someone's got to articulate the inchoate sentiments floating around here.
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Under your way of thinking these corporations will be out of business anyway so it wont matter.
Even when failure smacks you dead in the face, you still want to prop it up.
Why isnt Toyota or Honda begging for a bailout?????
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Do you really think that your 'lean and mean' talk about competition is something new?
Have you stopped for one minute and thought through the ramifications of your 'lean and mean' proposals?
I don't think you have.
It's the Unions that built the middle class of this country.
All your palliatives do is ensure the result that our middle class will disappear and a more desperate life will await our working class.
Congratulations! There's the result of your lean and mean global competition.
Yeah, storm the living rooms of what's left of middle america to make sure all profits are directed to the monied elites.
You and 333333 just can't wait until the status of the american worker is equal to the status of sweatshop slaves in India and Pakistan.
That's economic justice!
You really ought to get your nose out of Das Kapital. Marx's shit never worked in the past... what is it about it that makes you so enamored of it? It has never worked. Look around you. When/where has it ever worked? Let it go already. Show me a system that works better than capitalism, despite its flaws. Seriously, I mean, you're living in a Marxist dream world or something. Wake up.
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Someone's got to articulate the inchoate sentiments floating around here.
apparently its ok with you then that they can sit on their asses turn down jobs and still collect like 90% of their paychecks?
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Yeah, storm the living rooms of what's left of middle america to make sure all profits are directed to the monied elites.
You and 333333 just can't wait until the status of the american worker is equal to the status of sweatshop slaves in India and Pakistan.
That's economic justice!
I believe in rewarding success, innovation, and initiative.
GM, Ford, Chrysler are the opposite of that.
They are the perfect example of what not to do.
1. Overpay management and executives for failed leadership.
2. Overpay Unions
3. Pay more retirees than actual workers.
4. Pay people not to work.
5. Produce an overpriced product.
6. Don't provide a decent warranty.
7. Piss on your customers when a car need service.
Yeah, that is what I want my tax dollars supporting.
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Under your way of thinking these corporations will be out of business anyway so it wont matter.
Even when failure smacks you dead in the face, you still want to prop it up.
Why isnt Toyota or Honda begging for a bailout?????
Lousy management decisions combined with a stupid public who created a demand for SUVs and other trucks helped create this situation.
By my count, Toyota was bailed out by the Japanese gov. a couple of times. Here's an excerpt on one of the bailouts exactly how the Japanese gov. erected isolationist barriers to free trade:
The year was 1958 and the country was, in fact, Japan. The company was Toyota, and the car was called the Toyopet. Toyota started out as a manufacturer of textile machinery (Toyoda Automatic Loom) and moved into car production in 1933. The Japanese government kicked out General Motors and Ford in 1939 and bailed out Toyota with money from the central bank (Bank of Japan) in 1949.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/badsamaritans.htm
You operate under the mistaken assumption that we have a Free Market. We don't.
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I believe in rewarding success, innovation, and initiative.
GM, Ford, Chrysler are the opposite of that.
They are the perfect example of what not to do.
1. Overpay management and executives for failed leadership.
2. Overpay Unions
3. Pay more retirees than actual workers.
4. Pay people not to work.
5. Produce an overpriced product.
6. Don't provide a decent warranty.
7. Piss on your customers when a car need service.
Yeah, that is what I want my tax dollars supporting.
Where do you live? Fantasyland?
In all fairness, there are modifications that can be made to product and process. But don't fool yourself into thinking that the Big 3 are playing in a free market.
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Lousy management decisions combined with a stupid public who created a demand for SUVs and other trucks helped create this situation.
By my count, Toyota was bailed out by the Japanese gov. a couple of times. Here's an excerpt on one of the bailouts exactly how the Japanese gov. erected isolationist barriers to free trade:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/badsamaritans.htm
You operate under the mistaken assumption that we have a Free Market. We don't.
the problem is that in the same situation under the same circumstance toyota and honda arent asking to be bailed out, now answer why that is if you will?
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the problem is that in the same situation under the same circumstance toyota and honda arent asking to be bailed out, now answer why that is if you will?
That's not the problem. If you look a little closer, you see that gov. intervention is sometimes necessary to keep an economy afloat.
Since Toyota had a 70% dip in profits, I expect a bail out request is imminent.
You do know that Honda and Toyota both support the gov. bailout of the big 3.
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That's not the problem. If you look a little closer, you see that gov. intervention is sometimes necessary to keep an economy afloat.
Since Toyota had a 70% dip in profits, I expect a bail out request is imminent.
You do know that Honda and Toyota both support the gov. bailout of the big 3.
I didnt say that was the problem just a question, you seem to put more blame on the public and eroneous factors instead of on the companies themselves but if this were true it would have effected all car companies the same
70% dip in profits doesnt equal we wont be able to pay our bills in a few months like the other auto companies, not the same
doesnt suprise me that they would it would only help them out in the future, if they go under the economy will get worse and less ppl will buy their cars as well...also if they do need a bail out later on down the road hey they got one so it sets a precedent.
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You really ought to get your nose out of Das Kapital. Marx's shit never worked in the past... what is it about it that makes you so enamored of it? It has never worked. Look around you. When/where has it ever worked? Let it go already. Show me a system that works better than capitalism, despite its flaws. Seriously, I mean, you're living in a Marxist dream world or something. Wake up.
What are you talking about? Where have I stated anything about Big Karl?
It's you free marketeers that live in a perpetual fantasy where the magic of markets govern...and should govern.
Sorry pal, that ain't how it works.
It hasn't worked that way in this country for almost 90 years.
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I didnt say that was the problem just a question, you seem to put more blame on the public and eroneous factors instead of on the companies themselves but if this were true it would have effected all car companies the same
70% dip in profits doesnt equal we wont be able to pay our bills in a few months like the other auto companies, not the same
doesnt suprise me that they would it would only help them out in the future, if they go under the economy will get worse and less ppl will buy their cars as well...also if they do need a bail out later on down the road hey they got one so it sets a precedent.
The failure of the big 3 is extremely complex. It doesn't fit the reductionist efforts of guys like you and 3333...or me. It's just enervating to see you guys claim that here's why the big 3 failed and you put Unions at the top of the list. That's just bullshit and there's no statistical support to show otherwise.
You're missing the point re Toyota. They have a 340 billion dollar operating loss this year.
“This is an unprecedented situation,” Executive Vice President Mitsuo Kinoshita said whilst delivering the results. “Every week, the environment gets worse.”
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These companies also need to realize that people cannot afford to buy a new car every two or three years.
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The failure of the big 3 is extremely complex. It doesn't fit the reductionist efforts of guys like you and 3333...or me. It's just enervating to see you guys claim that here's why the big 3 failed and you put Unions at the top of the list. That's just bullshit and there's no statistical support to show otherwise.
You're missing the point re Toyota. They have a 340 billion dollar operating loss this year.
“This is an unprecedented situation,” Executive Vice President Mitsuo Kinoshita said whilst delivering the results. “Every week, the environment gets worse.”
of course toyota lost money look at the economy thats not the point the point is in the same situation they are better off than the big 3.
I understand its complex but you dont see the problems with unions again do you think its ok for these employees to be able to turn down jobs while in the job banks and still get paid? you seem to not want to put any blame on them or the company.
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of course toyota lost money look at the economy thats not the point the point is in the same situation they are better off than the big 3.
I understand its complex but you dont see the problems with unions again do you think its ok for these employees to be able to turn down jobs while in the job banks and still get paid? you seem to not want to put any blame on them or the company.
7% of the private workforce is unionized. 93% is not. This last 7% gets under your skin though.
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What are you talking about? Where have I stated anything about Big Karl?
It's you free marketeers that live in a perpetual fantasy where the magic of markets govern...and should govern.
Sorry pal, that ain't how it works.
It hasn't worked that way in this country for almost 90 years.
Every one of your posts reeks of Big Karl, whether your actually invoke his name or not.
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Every one of your posts reeks of Big Karl, whether your actually invoke his name or not.
Would you please elaborate?
Which Marxian themes am I riffing on in my posts?
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Would you please elaborate?
Which Marxian themes am I riffing on in my posts?
I'll have to cite you chapter and verse later.
Right now I'm on vacation all week (and half of the next) and I'm playing online games and can't be bothered with such trivial matters. And all that crap is a little rusty in my head because I've tried to block it out from all those years ago. But thanks to you it's all coming back. >:(
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7% of the private workforce is unionized. 93% is not. This last 7% gets under your skin though.
way to side step the issue and question
of course toyota lost money look at the economy thats not the point the point is in the same situation they are better off than the big 3.
I understand its complex but you dont see the problems with unions again do you think its ok for these employees to be able to turn down jobs while in the job banks and still get paid? you seem to not want to put any blame on them or the company.
again they are in the same situation in the same market with the same economy and are better off than the big 3
i didnt say anything about unions in this post did I?
No i didnt i simply posed a question to you so kindly answer the question.
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I find it ironic that the same people who complain about these guys doing crosswords at work are posting on Getbig all day at work.
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I find it ironic that the same people who complain about these guys doing crosswords at work are posting on Getbig all day at work.
I own my own business and can do whatever I like.
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I own my own business and can do whatever I like.
So can the autoworkers, it's in their contracts.
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So can the autoworkers, it's in their contracts.
right but they should go under if those practices in the contracts lead to loses either that or the lose frivalous expenditures.
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they also apparently can turn down a job if offered and still be allowed to collect their wages... ??? fuking we should be rioting.
Exactly - why take a job for $20/hour and no benefits when you can make $30/hour plus benefits without doing anything all day?
Communism at its finest, folks.
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Do you really think that your 'lean and mean' talk about competition is something new?
Have you stopped for one minute and thought through the ramifications of your 'lean and mean' proposals?
I don't think you have.
It's the Unions that built the middle class of this country.
All your palliatives do is ensure the result that our middle class will disappear and a more desperate life will await our working class.
Congratulations! There's the result of your lean and mean global competition.
But Decker, would you agree that we have failed to cultivate new industries that can absorb all our high school graduates?
Today, we're preparing them for entry into the service sector and little else.
My issue is this, though - an assembly-line worker in Indiana doesn't need to be making $120,000/year to be 'middle class'. He'll be just fine making $80-90,000.
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7% of the private workforce is unionized. 93% is not. This last 7% gets under your skin though.
So Mr Decker, as per your previous statement...
This 7% is responsible for the upkeep and continuation of the middle class, right?
If they were to dissappear, the middle class as we know it would vanish, correct?
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So can the autoworkers, it's in their contracts.
But I dont have to buy the cars they make. Thats the difference.
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Yes, the Unions helped to create the middle class as we know it today. The thing is Decker, the Unions are not what they used to be. There is no getting around that.
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Yes, the Unions helped to create the middle class as we know it today. The thing is Decker, the Unions are not what they used to be. There is no getting around that.
I have many clients in the trades. Unions are by and large shakedown operations that only drive up the cost of construction and result in month long projects turning into multi-year long projects that run way over budget.
The worst though, has to be teachers & civil service unions. Why do government workers need to be unionized????
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I have many clients in the trades. Unions are by and large shakedown operations that only drive up the cost of construction and result in month long projects turning into multi-year long projects that run way over budget.
The worst though, has to be teachers & civil service unions. Why do government workers need to be unionized????
That's what I have never understood...an exgirlfriend of mine is a teacher and she says even without the Unions it would be damn near impossible for the school board to fire her. Then again, if it weren't for the unions teachers wouldn't get paid during the summer. No work..and all pay for the 3 best months to have off every year. In those regards I'm jealous. ;D
Let's not forget public ballots that the unions are pushing through now. Whose business is it if you voted for against something regarding the business? Did you know a Union representative can come in and talk to employees about joining a union, but the employer cannot legally talk to that same employee about the potential cons of joining said union?
I agree that in the past the unions helped, just not to the extent that Decker is proposing. Nowadays they are just like our federal government, bloated, and way too big and intrusive for their own good. They are obviously a part of the probelm now...they are not a solution.
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teacher tenure as a result of unions is a 2-edged sword.
On the one hand, you have teachers who suck, who ae guaranteed contracts/jobs for 27 years once they get thru 3 years. They're making 55k a year no matter how mediocre they are, because they just show up.
On the other hand, you have principals/admin who would fire the top third of experienced teachers in their school (making 60 to 65k) and replace them with new college grads (making 29 to 33k) in order to make their school budgets and grow their own bonuses.
I don't know what the solution is. Both ways invite abuses.
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How do private schools manage?
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How do private schools manage?
the religious ones pay about 2/3 of what the public schools do. I know locally, some offer jobs at 19k to 22k for starting. No thanks!
The high-end private schools charge tuition. Their teachers all have masters or phds, even if they're only teaching 4th grade english. I don't konw what they earn. I'd guess it's 20% or more higher than public shcool teachers, but negotiated on a deal-by-deal basis. No standard pay scale that I've ever heard of, but one may exist.
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I know what you mean about mediocre teachers. I unfortunately know somebody that when she goes into work still hungover or drunk she just gives her students a "quiet day" and doesn't even give a lesson. Shows how irresponsible she is and how our kids are really being taught. This bitch truly disgusts me.
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I know what you mean about mediocre teachers. I unfortunately know somebody that when she goes into work still hungover or drunk she just gives her students a "quiet day" and doesn't even give a lesson. Shows how irresponsible she is and how our kids are really being taught. This bitch truly disgusts me.
I saw some of that as a teacher. More than that, I saw the 40-year old women who wouldn't last 5 minutes in the REAL workforce. They were fat, slow, lazy, inefficient, perpetual whiners who just reeked of waste. There are dozens of them in every staff on every school in America. They have 100% job security as long as they keep showing up. They waste time, they steal their paychecks, and they do a shitty job because they are LAZY.
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But Decker, would you agree that we have failed to cultivate new industries that can absorb all our high school graduates?
Today, we're preparing them for entry into the service sector and little else.
My issue is this, though - an assembly-line worker in Indiana doesn't need to be making $120,000/year to be 'middle class'. He'll be just fine making $80-90,000.
This situation - education/market demands of employment - has been made possible by the globalization push. It's an excellent coverstory for low pay, no benefits, relaxed environmental regs, relaxed labor regs and so on.
It's become paramount to our nation to destroy the living/working conditions to the extent that they rival those of our 3rd world competitors...where there is no labor law, no environmental concern, no safety concerns and consequently a quality of life scarcely better than that of a prisoner.
The manufacturing base of this country is drying up. Why? B/c it's cheaper for the monied elites to farm the work out to these slave labor countries. If there is little manufacturing going on here, then all the jobs related to that end also dry up.
But what about those last few union workers in manufacturing? They are a drag on the bottom line. Why pay a livable wage with benefits when there are Indian children who do the job for pennies on the dollar, no benefits, no safety or environmental concerns.
It took great effort to make our middle class. It didn't happen by accident. Now we got people chomping at the bit to put the death blow on it for the sake of being competitive....as if that were a natural result of the free market.
It is not the fault of unions that this country is losing its status and competitive edge. That decision was made a long time ago.
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I saw some of that as a teacher. More than that, I saw the 40-year old women who wouldn't last 5 minutes in the REAL workforce. They were fat, slow, lazy, inefficient, perpetual whiners who just reeked of waste. There are dozens of them in every staff on every school in America. They have 100% job security as long as they keep showing up. They waste time, they steal their paychecks, and they do a shitty job because they are LAZY.
Where I live teachers can make 100k per year.
They complain about grading papers!
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This situation - education/market demands of employment - has been made possible by the globalization push. It's an excellent coverstory for low pay, no benefits, relaxed environmental regs, relaxed labor regs and so on.
It's become paramount to our nation to destroy the living/working conditions to the extent that they rival those of our 3rd world competitors...where there is no labor law, no environmental concern, no safety concerns and consequently a quality of life scarcely better than that of a prisoner.
The manufacturing base of this country is drying up. Why? B/c it's cheaper for the monied elites to farm the work out to these slave labor countries. If there is little manufacturing going on here, then all the jobs related to that end also dry up.
But what about those last few union workers in manufacturing? They are a drag on the bottom line. Why pay a livable wage with benefits when there are Indian children who do the job for pennies on the dollar, no benefits, no safety or environmental concerns.
It took great effort to make our middle class. It didn't happen by accident. Now we got people chomping at the bit to put the death blow on it for the sake of being competitive....as if that were a natural result of the free market.
It is not the fault of unions that this country is losing its status and competitive edge. That decision was made a long time ago.
We are not going back to the 1950's, whether you like it or not.
The bottom line is that people will adapt and innovate or starve.
Clinging on to nostalgic times that you or I did not live in is useless and no productive.
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So Mr Decker, as per your previous statement...
This 7% is responsible for the upkeep and continuation of the middle class, right?
If they were to dissappear, the middle class as we know it would vanish, correct?
No b/c the fruits of their tremendous effort still exist:
the 40 hour work week--5 day/8hour workdays
Overtime pay
On-the-job Safety Standards
Severance pay
Maternity leave
And that's off the top of my head.
In other words Matey, we are riding on the coattails of their accomplishments.
Yet these unions are a threat to us.
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We are not going back to the 1950's, whether you like it or not.
The bottom line is that people will adapt and innovate or starve.
Clinging on to nostalgic times that you or I did not live in is useless and no productive.
It's not nostalgia. It's called a standard of living.
And you are all too happy to see this country's standard of living destroyed in the name of profit for a few.
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It's not nostalgia. It's called a standard of living.
And you are all too happy to see this country's standard of living destroyed in the name of profit for a few.
My standard of living is affected by paying 50% on the dollar to all sorts of taxes and b.s. by the government, not by propping up failed businesses with your and mine tax dollars.
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That's what I don't get Decker...how is letting a proven failed business plan going to effect the country's standard of living? If a business fails, it fails, we all are not going to start living in mud huts because of a big company going under. Will it hurt? Yes. We will move forward though.
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My standard of living is affected by paying 50% on the dollar to all sorts of taxes and b.s. by the government, not by propping up failed businesses with your and mine tax dollars.
You don't pay 50% of your dollar in taxes.
You will pay a lot more if the big 3 fail.
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That's what I don't get Decker...how is letting a proven failed business plan going to effect the country's standard of living? If a business fails, it fails, we all are not going to start living in mud huts because of a big company going under. Will it hurt? Yes. We will move forward though.
The big 3 have tens of thousands inter-related business from mechanics, distributors, dealers, suppliers etc. If they go down, so a couple of million people.
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You don't pay 50% of your dollar in taxes.
You will pay a lot more if the big 3 fail.
I am self employed:
1. 15% SS tax
2. Income tax.
3. Real Estate Tax
4. Sales taxes
5. Cell phone and communications taxes
6. Tolls
7. DMV Fees
8. Gas tax
9. Electricity tax.
When you tally it all up, it is 50% of all monies.
I guess you think that people paying 50% in taxes does not negatively impact their standard of living.
Let me keep more of MY OWN DAMN MONEY and I will spread it around in the local economy rather than give it to the bums and thieves like Blagovich, et al.
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I am self employed:
1. 15% SS tax
2. Income tax.
3. Real Estate Tax
4. Sales taxes
5. Cell phone and communications taxes
6. Tolls
7. DMV Fees
8. Gas tax
9. Electricity tax.
When you tally it all up, it is 50% of all monies.
I guess you think that people paying 50% in taxes does not negatively impact their standard of living.
Let me keep more of MY OWN DAMN MONEY and I will spread it around in the local economy rather than give it to the bums and thieves like Blagovich, et al.
You only pay 1/2 of the payroll tax and your hirelilngs pay the other half. If you pay the nominal rate for income tax then you need a new accoutant b/c you're getting screwed. Generally, you are given a break on your federal taxes for the property taxes you paid.
The other taxes are negligible. If you're paying 1/2 your income in taxes, you are doing something wrong.
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You only pay 1/2 of the payroll tax and your hirelilngs pay the other half. If you pay the nominal rate for income tax then you need a new accoutant b/c you're getting screwed. Generally, you are given a break on your federal taxes for the property taxes you paid.
The other taxes are negligible. If you're paying 1/2 your income in taxes, you are doing something wrong.
Nothing is negligible. $10.00 a month on cell phone bill. $0.45 gasoline tax on every gallon. 8.25% sales tax on almost everything I purchase.
Added up on total purchases, that is not negligible.
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Nothing is negligible. $10.00 a month on cell phone bill. $0.45 gasoline tax on every gallon. 8.25% sales tax on almost everything I purchase.
Added up on total purchases, that is not negligible.
Add in death taxes at 55% too. The government even taxes you to die.
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Add in death taxes at 55% too. The government even taxes you to die.
No they don't.
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No they don't.
When the Bush tax cuts expire the death tax comes back. it is not in effect in 2010 but comes back in 2011.
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When the Bush tax cuts expire the death tax comes back. it is not in effect in 2010 but comes back in 2011.
At what? Oh yea, 55%....
The Dems are gonna LOVE that opportunity to tear down working America a little more....
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At what? Oh yea, 55%....
The Dems are gonna LOVE that opportunity to tear down working America a little more....
Decker and other commies love the fact that we arte taxed to death and still rail on "evil corporations" as if they are picking my pocket of 50% of my income like government does.
At least with corporations, I can pick which one will rob me, eith the government, we have a collective gun to our heads and are told to psy up for all sorts of garbage.
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I think they should put a lot of these social programs that exist up to a vote.
If you vote 'yes', then you are taxed for their costs.
If you vote 'no', you are excused from the forced taxation for them.
I am thinking that a lot of these socialist pundits like our friend Mr. Decker will change their tune when they are required to foot the bill instead of decent working people being economically skinned.
What say you?
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At what? Oh yea, 55%....
The Dems are gonna LOVE that opportunity to tear down working America a little more....
Do you have any idea who pays the estate tax?
I assure you, it is not working America.
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I PAY the F*ING estate tax!
So you thing family farmers and small business owners are not 'working America'?
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Decker and other commies love the fact that we arte taxed to death and still rail on "evil corporations" as if they are picking my pocket of 50% of my income like government does.
At least with corporations, I can pick which one will rob me, eith the government, we have a collective gun to our heads and are told to psy up for all sorts of garbage.
With your hyperbole and grotesque exaggerations, it is very easy for me see you as some sort of flaming trial lawyer.
50%, commies, tax collection by gun...is there no rightwing crap that you don't take to heart?
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I PAY the F*ING estate tax!
So you thing family farmers and small business owners are not 'working America'?
There is no estate tax presently.
I think somebody might be perpetrating a fraud against you.
No wonder you hate the tax collector...it's really some grifter playing you.
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Epic avoiding answering the question.
How utter lawyerly of you.
There will be in 2011. And it will be 55% or even greater.
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Epic avoiding answering the question.
How utter lawyerly of you.
There will be in 2011. And it will be 55% or even greater.
You said that you pay the fucking estate tax. I pointed out that you don't.
Since you pay the estate tax, someone must have died and bequeathed you over 3.5 million dollars (anything less is exempted).
Congratulations on your fortune.
And the tax is not 55%.
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With your hyperbole and grotesque exaggerations, it is very easy for me see you as some sort of flaming trial lawyer.
50%, commies, tax collection by gun...is there no rightwing crap that you don't take to heart?
In 2011, how much will the estate tax be?
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You said that you pay the fucking estate tax. I pointed out that you don't.
Since you pay the estate tax, someone must have died and bequeathed you over 3.5 million dollars (anything less is exempted).
Congratulations on your fortune.
And the tax is not 55%.
Do you know how easy it is to get over 3.5 million? Do you own any property? 3.5 mil can be just having a house in San Fransisco with a moderate sized back yard and nice landscaping...
The tax is back to 55% once the Bush tax plan sunsets in 2010.
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In 2011, how much will the estate tax be?
No I don't. Why? B/c there are congressmen that will likely change it. I've heard proposals where the first 20million of the estate will be exempt from the tax.
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Do you know how easy it is to get over 3.5 million? Do you own any property? 3.5 mil can be just having a house in San Fransisco with a moderate sized back yard and nice landscaping...
The tax is back to 55% once the Bush tax plan sunsets in 2010.
The tax that you paid back in 2006 was not 55%. You ought to know that if you paid it.
Yeah, you're right. 3,500,000 dollars just doesn't go as far as it used to. In fact, I just dropped a million and a half dollars buying a cup of coffee this morning(I'm a generous tipper).
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The tax that you paid back in 2006 was not 55%. You ought to know that if you paid it.
Yeah, you're right. 3,500,000 dollars just doesn't go as far as it used to. In fact, I just dropped a million and a half dollars buying a cup of coffee this morning(I'm a generous tipper).
Its not your money. Someone worked hard and busted their rear end for that money to pass it along to their heirs, not to Decker and his pet social engineering projects.
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Its not your money. Someone worked hard and busted their rear end for that money to pass it along to their heirs, not to Decker and his pet social engineering projects.
Yes, but here we go back to the foundations of liberalism...
"I believe you are responsible for your neighbors, and I can use the government to forceably take your hard-earned money to give to people who don't, and have no intention of holding their weight in society"
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Its not your money. Someone worked hard and busted their rear end for that money to pass it along to their heirs, not to Decker and his pet social engineering projects.
Wrong. The government can impose a tax on any conveyance of money to support the government of the People. So the money is the government's and the government is the People.
Social engineering? LIke bailing out Wall Street?
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Yes, but here we go back to the foundations of liberalism...
"I believe you are responsible for your neighbors, and I can use the government to forceably take your hard-earned money to give to people who don't, and have no intention of holding their weight in society"
It's well a established fact that rightwing politicians do not spend tax dollars. They cut taxes. They also borrow billions to fund their own little gov. projects....but good rightwingers don't mention those. B/c rightwingers cut taxes....never spend....never.
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Wrong. The government can impose a tax on any conveyance of money to support the government of the People. So the money is the government's and the government is the People.
Social engineering? LIke bailing out Wall Street?
I was against that.
Why not impose a 100% tax on all income since it is a conveyance from the employer to the employee?????
You would love that wouldnt you?
35-50% is not enough for you, so why not 100%
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I was against that.
Why not impose a 100% tax on all income since it is a conveyance from the employer to the employee?????
You would love that wouldnt you?
35-50% is not enough for you, so why not 100%
Yes I would love to see a tax of 100% income implemented. 67% of corporations pay no tax at all. Warren Buffet pays less in taxes than his secretary.
Yet you can't stop forking over 50% of your earnings. You need an accountant. You're paying more than is required.