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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: J Grey on December 11, 2008, 08:09:47 PM
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should I use no momentum what so ever on back exercises? would using only muscular contraction a little less weight be better than using some momentum with heavier weight?
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should I use no momentum what so ever on back exercises? would using only muscular contraction a little less weight be better than using some momentum with heavier weight?
That's a good question. Both are good. I've found that using just a little momentum's effective in terms of getting in to a groove during the set. Plus let's face it that's actually more similar to rowing a boat, which is not done in ultra-strict fashion.
In general i find that it's better to use a little momentum (A little, not a lot-big difference, Cheating's often abused to the point of being worthless. You want just enough motion to get it moving the first few inches.).
But then in conjuction with that slight cheating, it's helpful to try to keep the body fairly motionless and make the exercise more strict by using a pad or something else to rest against. Something that keeps the body from moving to much.
Thus you've got a little momentum in the ROM, but use a pad to keep the body fairly but not entirely motionless. A combination of the two-a bench or pad to lie against while rowing, a preacher bench while curling, etc.
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When Dorian found out that Dugdale used a little momentum on his back exercises he was quick to point out his cheating ways and him cheating himself of maximum growth because of it. Dorian, with possibly the best back in the history of Bodybuilding doesn't take lightly on cheaters!!
:)
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I think a little momentum on biceps and triceps is alright but with back it's just too risky. You want to row or pull a weight, not tug or jerk it.
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When Dorian found out that Dugdale used a little momentum on his back exercises he was quick to point out his cheating ways and him cheating himself of maximum growth because of it. Dorian, with possibly the best back in the history of Bodybuilding doesn't take lightly on cheaters!!
:)
I saw that, but now the video is removed, do you have a link to it? :(
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Don't use the low back to gain momentum except for the last rep or 2 unless you are attempting to work the low back. Any momentum you gain should be from the explosiveness you create at the beginning of the lift, not the low back. I see guys doing seated rows bending forward at the waist and then leaning way back as the weight stack is thrown up and the arms are able to pull the weight back. They look really cool because they can do the entire stack of weight ::)
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These guys are pointing to the injury potential of momentum for back work. That's part of why i suggest keeping the back immobile, lying on a bench or against a pad.
Do that and (1) you can use a little momentum without the injury potential, and (2) the back gets worked to it's fullest IMO by using a little momentum coupled with the back braced.
From my experience this combination is better than any of the other usual forms of back work.
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Using momentum seems to go with larger muscle development, with due respect to what Yates said. To get that heavier weight jump started, from a weaker stretched out (biceps) position, body English will be required. If trying for ultra strict performance throughout the pull, you are only limiting the weight used for the back and letting the arms get the blunt of the work. Like doing a 250 BB row vs a 135lb row. Which version will give you a better back?
Cheating can have an important place when doing any exercise and could be called the next step above momentum. This is controlled cheating, with a style and rhythm to a rep. But not only the last few reps, but for the total set. This is not to be confused with sloppy form, where the weight is yanked, jerked, half repped or whatever. You are using a heavier but with control. There is a video of Bertil Fox doing cheat curls somewhere on this site. Not perfect but still a pretty good example of how cheats are preformed.
BB'ing is like a personal lab experiment to see what may or may not work for you and you only. I do think that BB'ers are among the most inventive group around, with regards to their subculture. But, at times, they can get into a rut with what the "experts" say is the correct way to train. Might it be reps, sets, how many days a week to train or whatever. Give any new program or exercise style a good 6 to 8 weeks to see how it may work for you. Strict, cheat or somewhere in the middle. Or anything else for that matter. Good Luck.
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In all honesty I say you're better off not using momentum. You can not make the back muscles work harder by bobbing with your legs etc You might have the impression they are but in reality they are not.
Basically anything you try to FORCE will not work or worse, work against you
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Also realize that anything started with a hitch or jerk is momentum, an object already moving is much easier to keep in movement than something immobile that needs to yet be mobilised.
Hence (and this is just my opinion, no data to support this) why you often see people who do everything they should be doing (think nutrition, rest, etc) not getting the gains they should be getting based on their workout poundages, they are using momentum to get the weight moving (and indeed once it is moving it becomes much easier to keep it moving).
We've all seen countless examples of these people, the common 'they just lack genetics' is bs. We are all humans and are all capable of building muscle, seek out your error instead of thinking you are some kind of genetic anomaly incapable of building muscle or at least building the amount of muscle you feel you deserve
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i think getting a "sway" on back movements is actually IMPORTANT to understand how to properly do and to do it every time ... it allows for more weight, incorporates the lower lats, helps isolate the back from the biceps, and makes the exercise a bit more fluid.
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i think getting a "sway" on back movements is actually IMPORTANT to understand how to properly do and to do it every time ... it allows for more weight, incorporates the lower lats, helps isolate the back from the biceps, and makes the exercise a bit more fluid.
All opinion but i agree with this. After all, actual rowing uses this fluid, less strict motion. Too often there's an obsession with strict. In part i believe because strict is equated with a more "honest' & greater work ethic and/or that fuller ROM while lifting strictly means something re: development, which has not been established.
The key is not to abuse cheating, whether it's rowing, curls or whatever. Just a little nudge at the beginning just to get the weight moving allows the muscles to take over and get a good workout, and lowers the potential of injury from heaving the weight.
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Differing opinions are fine! By all means thread starter try different things
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All opinion but i agree with this. After all, actual rowing uses this fluid, less strict motion. Too often there's an obsession with strict. In part i believe because strict is equated with a more "honest' & greater work ethic and/or that fuller ROM while lifting strictly means something re: development, which has not been established.
The key is not to abuse cheating, whether it's rowing, curls or whatever. Just a little nudge at the beginning just to get the weight moving allows the muscles to take over and get a good workout, and lowers the potential of injury from heaving the weight.
ronnie knows exactly how to sway on every back movement =
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Just my opinion and personal experience, but think momentum is very beneficial. I actually feel the back working harder.
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Just my opinion and personal experience, but think momentum is very beneficial. I actually feel the back working harder.
hell yeah..back day tomorow..love back day... hell yeah hell yeah hellyeah !@!!!!
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hell yeah..back day tomorow..love back day... hell yeah hell yeah hellyeah !@!!!!
IMO when i stopped using "perfect form" with exception of squats, deadlifts etc.. I grew ten times faster.
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DORIAN SAYS NO >:(
only the first half of the rom is effective, the other you get for free = that part of your back isn't being worked...
like dorian says: if you can't hold the weight static at full contraction, you're using to much weight and you used momentum to contract not muscle.
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DORIAN SAYS NO >:(
So what, you've got other guys with great backs like Coleman who don't ascribe to that belief at all. Strict obviously isn't essential and as some have said it actually feels better and may be more productive to use some body english. There's absolutely no basis to the belief that strict form is essential despite the fact that some believe it.
Besides which he was doing BB rows almost standing up, hardly textbook form.
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DORIAN SAYS NO >:(
only the first half of the rom is effective, the other you get for free = that part of your back isn't being worked...
like dorian says: if you can't hold the weight static at full contraction, you're using to much weight and you used momentum to contract not muscle.
that does not contradict usign sway during back work... and you dont use the sway with momentum its more of a controlled sway and your using lower lat contraction to start the sway and full lat contrant the rest of the time. trust me, try the slight sway..its magic.
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The key is not to abuse cheating, whether it's rowing, curls or whatever. Just a little nudge at the beginning just to get the weight moving allows the muscles to take over and get a good workout, and lowers the potential of injury from heaving the weight.
x2
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I find that the stress on the joints is alleviated by using a bit of a swaying motion. Standing stiff in any position with that much weight pulling you down (while you resist to stay somewhat upright) is not good for the lower back.
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that does not contradict usign sway during back work... and you dont use the sway with momentum its more of a controlled sway and your using lower lat contraction to start the sway and full lat contrant the rest of the time. trust me, try the slight sway..its magic.
yeah big difference between sway as you get closer to failure and throwing the weight up on every rep. However that static hold thing is a great way to tell if you're cheating or not.
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DORIAN SAYS NO >:(
only the first half of the rom is effective, the other you get for free = that part of your back isn't being worked...
like dorian says: if you can't hold the weight static at full contraction, you're using to much weight and you used momentum to contract not muscle.
Yes.
Dorian is right.
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Yes.
Dorian is right.
As a moderator i think you can do better than that. Offer some of your wealth of experience as to why, for example.
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Any momentum used on any exercise will remove the tension you could have otherwise used for that part which was helped by momentum. So, you are lifting more weight, but spreading that weight throughout a) the muscles causing the momentum and b) the muscles that are meant to be lifting the weight. So, there isn't a whole lot of point for heavy momentum unless you only want a hard contraction at a very small part of the ROM. I prefer training full ROM, no momentum.
The key is not to abuse cheating, whether it's rowing, curls or whatever. Just a little nudge at the beginning just to get the weight moving allows the muscles to take over and get a good workout, and lowers the potential of injury from heaving the weight.
Great explanation, pumpster. :)
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I've found that by dropping the weight I lift by half....I'm getting better results since I'm focusing on just getting the best contraction in my lats. When heavier it's more of a full body exercise and maybe better for mass?
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i believe the use of momentum is effective in reducing the strain on the biceps during the lift, this however is best suited, of course, at the beginning of the lift... take lat pulldowns for instance, it is usually advised that you arch your back at a slight angle while you puff out your chest and pull down from there, i feel you can use momentum as you postion yourself in a leaning angle eliminating all bicep strain and stimulating the back to work... actually Mike Menzter addressed something similar when discussing lateral raises. he advocated that you swing at the begging or it is near impossible to lift, he did also say that if you are unable to hold the weight briefly at the top of the movement you are using to much momentum.
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i believe the use of momentum is effective in reducing the strain on the biceps during the lift, this however is best suited, of course, at the beginning of the lift... take lat pulldowns for instance, it is usually advised that you arch your back at a slight angle while you puff out your chest and pull down from there, i feel you can use momentum as you postion yourself in a leaning angle eliminating all bicep strain and stimulating the back to work... actually Mike Menzter addressed something similar when discussing lateral raises. he advocated that you swing at the begging or it is near impossible to lift, he did also say that if you are unable to hold the weight briefly at the top of the movement you are using to much momentum.
Again coming back to cheating as an advantage over strict in a majority of exercises. This is controlled, "good" cheating, not abusing the idea. Just enough to get the weight moving the few couple of inches. I'd say that cheating done this way's better for most exercises, including for example tricep extensions as well as curls and lat work.
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i'm going to say something i don't think i've ever said before:
reread pumpster's posts here for my opinion on rows. i agree 100%. ultra-strict rows rob half of your back of work and using too much english leads to he lift being all hamstrings and lower back. as long as your body is at a sensible angle when the bar hits your belly (or sternum, as i've been doing lately), chances are you're not swinging too much.
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ive actually been experimenting wuite a bit with my form lately, and i notice on bench machine, if i try a little "forward sway" (opposite of bacward sway on rows)..it helps get the chest a little better..just like the back sway with back.