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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: The True Adonis on December 14, 2008, 04:07:18 PM
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http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
(http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/barna.jpg)
More Americans Believe in the Devil, Hell and Angels than in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution
Nearly 25% of Americans Believe They Were Once another Person
ROCHESTER, N.Y. – December 10, 2008 – That very large majorities of the American public believe in God, miracles, the survival of the soul after death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Virgin birth will come as no great surprise. What may be more surprising is that substantial minorities believe in ghosts, UFOs, witches, astrology, and the belief that they themselves were once other people. Overall, more people believe in the devil, hell and angels than believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution.
These are some of the results of The Harris Poll®, a new nationwide survey of 2,126 U.S. adults surveyed online between November 10 and 17, 2008 by Harris Interactive®.
Some of the interesting findings in this new Harris Poll include:
80% of adult Americans believe in God – unchanged since the last time we asked the question in 2005. Large majorities of the public believe in miracles (75%), heaven (73%), angels (71%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (71%), the resurrection of Jesus (70%), the survival of the soul after death (68%), hell (62%), the Virgin birth (Jesus born of Mary (61%) and the devil (59%).
Slightly more people – but both are minorities – believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (47%) than in creationism (40%).
Sizeable minorities believe in ghosts (44%), UFOs (36%), witches (31%), astrology (31%), and reincarnation (24%).
Differences between Catholics and Protestants
There are no significant differences between the large percentages of Catholics and Protestants who believe in God, miracles, heaven and hell, that Jesus is the Son of God, angels, the resurrection of Jesus, the survival of the soul after death, the Virgin birth and the devil.
However, Catholics are more likely than Protestants to believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (by 52% to 32%), ghosts (by 57% to 41%), UFOs (by 43% to 31%), and astrology (by 40% to 28%). Protestants are slightly more likely than Catholics to believe in creationism (by 54% to 46%).
Which Religious Texts Are the "Word of God"
Slender majorities of all adults believe that all or most of the Old Testament (55%) and the New Testament (54%) are the "Word of God." However, only about a third of all adults (37% and 36%) believe that all of these texts are the word of God.
Interestingly, only 26% of all adults believe that the Torah is the word of God, even though it is the same as the first five books of the Old Testament. Presumably many people do not know this.
Religiosity and Religious Practice
Less than a quarter of Americans describe themselves are "very religious." However, a large majority (68%) describe themselves as either very (23%) or somewhat (45%) religious.
A quarter (27%) of adult Americans claim that they attend church once a week or more often, compared with 36% who say they attend less than once a year or never (18% each).
A Note on the Methodology Used and How It Affects the Results
Other research has shown that when replying to a question administered impersonally by a computer, people are less likely to say they believe in God, or attend Church services when they really don’t. It is generally believed that surveys conducted by live interviewers tend to exaggerate the numbers of people who report the socially desirable, or less embarrassing, behavior, and that the replies given to an online survey such as this, are more honest and therefore more accurate.
Methodology
This Harris Poll® was conducted online within the United States between November 10 and 17, 2008 among 2,126 adults (aged 18 and over). Figures for age, sex, race/ethnicity, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online.
All sample surveys and polls, whether or not they use probability sampling, are subject to multiple sources of error which are most often not possible to quantify or estimate, including sampling error, coverage error, error associated with nonresponse, error associated with question wording and response options, and post-survey weighting and adjustments. Therefore, Harris Interactive avoids the words "margin of error" as they are misleading. All that can be calculated are different possible sampling errors with different probabilities for pure, unweighted, random samples with 100% response rates. These are only theoretical because no published polls come close to this ideal.
Respondents for this survey were selected from among those who have agreed to participate in Harris Interactive surveys. The data have been weighted to reflect the composition of the adult population. Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated.
These statements conform to the principles of disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls.
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Religion induce meltdown.
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http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
Click this for the other neat graphs in this survey. They are quite shocking. Dismal if you are expecting an "intelligent" electorate however.
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i find those results hard to believe
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TA, whats your occupation?
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TA, whats your occupation?
NOTHING.
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i find those results hard to believe
Thaose stats came from the internet for god's sake. They're the real deal
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TA, whats your occupation?
Provocateur Extraordinaire. It has its own self-contained benefits.
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Provocateur Extraordinaire. It has its own self-contained benefits.
I thought you were an insurance adjuster?
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TA, whats your occupation?
he is Johnny Falcons right hand man
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Thaose stats came from the internet for god's sake. They're the real deal
Are you angry because you fall into several of those "believer" categories or do you just not know what a Harris Poll is or what requirements the National Council on Public Polls sets to qualify as being scientific. Or is it all of the above?
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...ain't that some shit?
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TA, whats your occupation?
HE'S AN INSURANCE ADJUSTER "YOU KNOW TAKE AN 12HRS CLASS AND BOOM YOU GET A LICENSE" , HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE REAL MONEY LIKE UNDERWRITING INSURANCE POLICIES OR DOING PERFORMANCE BONDS ;D
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After Obama gets in office the results of this poll will change drastically for the better.
CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!!!
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After Obama gets in office the results of this poll will change drastically for the better.
CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!!!
DON'T GET BRAIN WASHED, I DOUBT IT'S A REPUTABLE SOURCE :-\
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Are you angry because you fall into several of those "believer" categories or do you just not know what a Harris Poll is or what requirements the National Council on Public Polls sets to qualify as being scientific. Or is it all of the above?
Not angry at all. I am none of the above. I did pay attention in undergrad stats enough to undertand that a sample size of not even 2200 peope is hardly representative of "most Americans."
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http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
(http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/barna.jpg)
More Americans Believe in the Devil, Hell and Angels than in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution
Nearly 25% of Americans Believe They Were Once another Person
ROCHESTER, N.Y. – December 10, 2008 – That very large majorities of the American public believe in God, miracles, the survival of the soul after death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Virgin birth will come as no great surprise. What may be more surprising is that substantial minorities believe in ghosts, UFOs, witches, astrology, and the belief that they themselves were once other people. Overall, more people believe in the devil, hell and angels than believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution.
These are some of the results of The Harris Poll®, a new nationwide survey of 2,126 U.S. adults surveyed online between November 10 and 17, 2008 by Harris Interactive®.
Some of the interesting findings in this new Harris Poll include:
80% of adult Americans believe in God – unchanged since the last time we asked the question in 2005. Large majorities of the public believe in miracles (75%), heaven (73%), angels (71%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (71%), the resurrection of Jesus (70%), the survival of the soul after death (68%), hell (62%), the Virgin birth (Jesus born of Mary (61%) and the devil (59%).
Slightly more people – but both are minorities – believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (47%) than in creationism (40%).
Sizeable minorities believe in ghosts (44%), UFOs (36%), witches (31%), astrology (31%), and reincarnation (24%).
Differences between Catholics and Protestants
There are no significant differences between the large percentages of Catholics and Protestants who believe in God, miracles, heaven and hell, that Jesus is the Son of God, angels, the resurrection of Jesus, the survival of the soul after death, the Virgin birth and the devil.
However, Catholics are more likely than Protestants to believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (by 52% to 32%), ghosts (by 57% to 41%), UFOs (by 43% to 31%), and astrology (by 40% to 28%). Protestants are slightly more likely than Catholics to believe in creationism (by 54% to 46%).
Which Religious Texts Are the "Word of God"
Slender majorities of all adults believe that all or most of the Old Testament (55%) and the New Testament (54%) are the "Word of God." However, only about a third of all adults (37% and 36%) believe that all of these texts are the word of God.
Interestingly, only 26% of all adults believe that the Torah is the word of God, even though it is the same as the first five books of the Old Testament. Presumably many people do not know this.
Religiosity and Religious Practice
Less than a quarter of Americans describe themselves are "very religious." However, a large majority (68%) describe themselves as either very (23%) or somewhat (45%) religious.
A quarter (27%) of adult Americans claim that they attend church once a week or more often, compared with 36% who say they attend less than once a year or never (18% each).
A Note on the Methodology Used and How It Affects the Results
Other research has shown that when replying to a question administered impersonally by a computer, people are less likely to say they believe in God, or attend Church services when they really don’t. It is generally believed that surveys conducted by live interviewers tend to exaggerate the numbers of people who report the socially desirable, or less embarrassing, behavior, and that the replies given to an online survey such as this, are more honest and therefore more accurate.
Methodology
This Harris Poll® was conducted online within the United States between November 10 and 17, 2008 among 2,126 adults (aged 18 and over). Figures for age, sex, race/ethnicity, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online.
All sample surveys and polls, whether or not they use probability sampling, are subject to multiple sources of error which are most often not possible to quantify or estimate, including sampling error, coverage error, error associated with nonresponse, error associated with question wording and response options, and post-survey weighting and adjustments. Therefore, Harris Interactive avoids the words "margin of error" as they are misleading. All that can be calculated are different possible sampling errors with different probabilities for pure, unweighted, random samples with 100% response rates. These are only theoretical because no published polls come close to this ideal.
Respondents for this survey were selected from among those who have agreed to participate in Harris Interactive surveys. The data have been weighted to reflect the composition of the adult population. Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated.
These statements conform to the principles of disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls.
scary stuff honestly.
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Good stuff, TA.... You always have a way of putting things in perspective.
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Not surprising considering most Americans can't even locate Iraq on a globe.
Most of these morons that believe in that shit think they're keeping this country strong for years to come when they're actually helping to sink it.
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http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
(http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/barna.jpg)
More Americans Believe in the Devil, Hell and Angels than in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution
Nearly 25% of Americans Believe They Were Once another Person
ROCHESTER, N.Y. – December 10, 2008 – That very large majorities of the American public believe in God, miracles, the survival of the soul after death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Virgin birth will come as no great surprise. What may be more surprising is that substantial minorities believe in ghosts, UFOs, witches, astrology, and the belief that they themselves were once other people. Overall, more people believe in the devil, hell and angels than believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution.
These are some of the results of The Harris Poll®, a new nationwide survey of 2,126 U.S. adults surveyed online between November 10 and 17, 2008 by Harris Interactive®.
Some of the interesting findings in this new Harris Poll include:
80% of adult Americans believe in God – unchanged since the last time we asked the question in 2005. Large majorities of the public believe in miracles (75%), heaven (73%), angels (71%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (71%), the resurrection of Jesus (70%), the survival of the soul after death (68%), hell (62%), the Virgin birth (Jesus born of Mary (61%) and the devil (59%).
Slightly more people – but both are minorities – believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (47%) than in creationism (40%).
Sizeable minorities believe in ghosts (44%), UFOs (36%), witches (31%), astrology (31%), and reincarnation (24%).
Differences between Catholics and Protestants
There are no significant differences between the large percentages of Catholics and Protestants who believe in God, miracles, heaven and hell, that Jesus is the Son of God, angels, the resurrection of Jesus, the survival of the soul after death, the Virgin birth and the devil.
However, Catholics are more likely than Protestants to believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (by 52% to 32%), ghosts (by 57% to 41%), UFOs (by 43% to 31%), and astrology (by 40% to 28%). Protestants are slightly more likely than Catholics to believe in creationism (by 54% to 46%).
Which Religious Texts Are the "Word of God"
Slender majorities of all adults believe that all or most of the Old Testament (55%) and the New Testament (54%) are the "Word of God." However, only about a third of all adults (37% and 36%) believe that all of these texts are the word of God.
Interestingly, only 26% of all adults believe that the Torah is the word of God, even though it is the same as the first five books of the Old Testament. Presumably many people do not know this.
Religiosity and Religious Practice
Less than a quarter of Americans describe themselves are "very religious." However, a large majority (68%) describe themselves as either very (23%) or somewhat (45%) religious.
A quarter (27%) of adult Americans claim that they attend church once a week or more often, compared with 36% who say they attend less than once a year or never (18% each).
A Note on the Methodology Used and How It Affects the Results
Other research has shown that when replying to a question administered impersonally by a computer, people are less likely to say they believe in God, or attend Church services when they really don’t. It is generally believed that surveys conducted by live interviewers tend to exaggerate the numbers of people who report the socially desirable, or less embarrassing, behavior, and that the replies given to an online survey such as this, are more honest and therefore more accurate.
Methodology
This Harris Poll® was conducted online within the United States between November 10 and 17, 2008 among 2,126 adults (aged 18 and over). Figures for age, sex, race/ethnicity, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online.
All sample surveys and polls, whether or not they use probability sampling, are subject to multiple sources of error which are most often not possible to quantify or estimate, including sampling error, coverage error, error associated with nonresponse, error associated with question wording and response options, and post-survey weighting and adjustments. Therefore, Harris Interactive avoids the words "margin of error" as they are misleading. All that can be calculated are different possible sampling errors with different probabilities for pure, unweighted, random samples with 100% response rates. These are only theoretical because no published polls come close to this ideal.
Respondents for this survey were selected from among those who have agreed to participate in Harris Interactive surveys. The data have been weighted to reflect the composition of the adult population. Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated.
These statements conform to the principles of disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls.
Thank GOD for the Adonis Principles to keep us from evil!
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Everytime I start to think about the theory of Evolution and us humans, I wonder where the fuck did our chimp strength go? And why would we lose it so fast?...
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scary stuff honestly.
Yep.... :-\
Not surprising considering most Americans can't even locate Iraq on a globe.
Most of these morons that believe in that shit think they're keeping this country strong for years to come when they're actually helping to sink it.
Iraq? Are you kidding me? Some can't even find their own state capital....
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Yep.... :-\
Iraq? Are you kidding me? Some can't even find their own state capital....
Probably true...But I would also guess that some of the scientist's that worked on the nuke program through history also couldn't do simple feats :-\
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http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
(http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/barna.jpg)
More Americans Believe in the Devil, Hell and Angels than in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution
Nearly 25% of Americans Believe They Were Once another Person
ROCHESTER, N.Y. – December 10, 2008 – That very large majorities of the American public believe in God, miracles, the survival of the soul after death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Virgin birth will come as no great surprise. What may be more surprising is that substantial minorities believe in ghosts, UFOs, witches, astrology, and the belief that they themselves were once other people. Overall, more people believe in the devil, hell and angels than believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution.
These are some of the results of The Harris Poll®, a new nationwide survey of 2,126 U.S. adults surveyed online between November 10 and 17, 2008 by Harris Interactive®.
Some of the interesting findings in this new Harris Poll include:
80% of adult Americans believe in God – unchanged since the last time we asked the question in 2005. Large majorities of the public believe in miracles (75%), heaven (73%), angels (71%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (71%), the resurrection of Jesus (70%), the survival of the soul after death (68%), hell (62%), the Virgin birth (Jesus born of Mary (61%) and the devil (59%).
Slightly more people – but both are minorities – believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (47%) than in creationism (40%).
Sizeable minorities believe in ghosts (44%), UFOs (36%), witches (31%), astrology (31%), and reincarnation (24%).
Differences between Catholics and Protestants
There are no significant differences between the large percentages of Catholics and Protestants who believe in God, miracles, heaven and hell, that Jesus is the Son of God, angels, the resurrection of Jesus, the survival of the soul after death, the Virgin birth and the devil.
However, Catholics are more likely than Protestants to believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (by 52% to 32%), ghosts (by 57% to 41%), UFOs (by 43% to 31%), and astrology (by 40% to 28%). Protestants are slightly more likely than Catholics to believe in creationism (by 54% to 46%).
Which Religious Texts Are the "Word of God"
Slender majorities of all adults believe that all or most of the Old Testament (55%) and the New Testament (54%) are the "Word of God." However, only about a third of all adults (37% and 36%) believe that all of these texts are the word of God.
Interestingly, only 26% of all adults believe that the Torah is the word of God, even though it is the same as the first five books of the Old Testament. Presumably many people do not know this.
Religiosity and Religious Practice
Less than a quarter of Americans describe themselves are "very religious." However, a large majority (68%) describe themselves as either very (23%) or somewhat (45%) religious.
A quarter (27%) of adult Americans claim that they attend church once a week or more often, compared with 36% who say they attend less than once a year or never (18% each).
A Note on the Methodology Used and How It Affects the Results
Other research has shown that when replying to a question administered impersonally by a computer, people are less likely to say they believe in God, or attend Church services when they really don’t. It is generally believed that surveys conducted by live interviewers tend to exaggerate the numbers of people who report the socially desirable, or less embarrassing, behavior, and that the replies given to an online survey such as this, are more honest and therefore more accurate.
Methodology
This Harris Poll® was conducted online within the United States between November 10 and 17, 2008 among 2,126 adults (aged 18 and over). Figures for age, sex, race/ethnicity, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online.
All sample surveys and polls, whether or not they use probability sampling, are subject to multiple sources of error which are most often not possible to quantify or estimate, including sampling error, coverage error, error associated with nonresponse, error associated with question wording and response options, and post-survey weighting and adjustments. Therefore, Harris Interactive avoids the words "margin of error" as they are misleading. All that can be calculated are different possible sampling errors with different probabilities for pure, unweighted, random samples with 100% response rates. These are only theoretical because no published polls come close to this ideal.
Respondents for this survey were selected from among those who have agreed to participate in Harris Interactive surveys. The data have been weighted to reflect the composition of the adult population. Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated.
These statements conform to the principles of disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls.
Didn't read any of this crap but is there anyway you may move to another country (please). Hopefully all the shit you cut & paste will convince you to move elsewhere.
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Anyone who bash's religion and God and tries to argue there is no God as much as TA is just trying to make an arguement for being in denial of His existance. He wants to believe there is no God, but in reality knows the universe just didn't "happen".
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Anyone who bash's religion and God and tries to argue there is no God as much as TA is just trying to make an arguement for being in denial of His existance. He wants to believe there is no God, but in reality knows the universe just didn't "happen".
Coach if humans bring back the Mammoth like they say they are going to. Would that animal they(we)create still be considered gods work? Just wanted your opinion...
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Good stuff, TA.... You always have a way of putting things in perspective.
Yea he is great at cut & pasting. ::) ::) ::) ::)
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He sure comes across as a conceited, pompous, little snob who seems very full of himself. It's incredible that he so proudly posts so many pictures of himself with his shirt off thinking that he's something special. He seems like someone who has been very pampered in life, always had a safety net to get him through when things are tight, and never endure any real hardships and pain (though I'm sure what he considers hardships and pain OnlyMe and Coach consider walks in the park).
I doubt he's ever been in a fist fight or even knows how to defend himself but leaves it to others to insure his safety. What does he do for a living anyway and does he even support himself? The way he talks about recipes; praising the anti-American ingrate, Norm Chomsky -- I knew he would jump in the thread that asks for A favorite BOOK (read: ONE BOOK) with a long laundry list to show off his intellectual bona fides, "Anything by Upton Sinclair!" I was surprise only in the fact that he didn't start naming off poets like Percy Shelly, "I clasp my hands and shrieked with Ecstasy!"
He reminds me of that old phrase they use to use for guys like him, "Nancy boy." I would really like to see how this pampered, know-it-all, pseudo-intellectual would react when his life and physical safety is threatened and there's no one around to save him.
Move to France or some Western European country where you belong you Anti-American ingrate. You sit there sipping your wine and eating goat cheese while shitting on a country that the world looks to first whenever there's a crisis or a disaster.
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Anyone who bash's religion and God and tries to argue there is no God as much as TA is just trying to make an arguement for being in denial of His existance.
that just didn't make any sense...
He wants to believe there is no God, but in reality knows the universe just didn't "happen".
he belives in science. most likely "the big bang" theory... after that life progresses with evolution...
but hey 'god created everything' right ::)
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I can explain the reincarnation scientificaly. What do you say?
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I can explain the reincarnation scientificaly. What do you say?
go ahead
lol
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If it was up to christians the earth would still be flat!
;D
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go ahead
lol
There are many cases of the memories about the last life.
Our soul is nothing special like those religious freaks think.
Its just a complex form of electric information inside of our brain and body.
When you turn off your computer, the electric stream and the magnetic field wont vanish suddenly. It remains for a while.
Once a certain form is formed. That form try to maintain(stabilize) itself=Existance.
For stabilizing that form, new electric device is needed(new born babys brain).
If its not baby, it will show up as the possesion.
Our brain is receiving many infos and getting many influence subconciously easily. Its not strange that we get some electric infos when our brain was fresh and clean. In a sence, this is a kind of possesion. And in this mean, all the people are possesed by some spirits(electric info) called "Ego".
And also. Nothing is forever, those spirits(electric info) is also alterd state.
And also I post about my concept of reincarnation in my blog.
The Structure of Reincarnation
About the reincarnation, we can find out any infomations in any book stores and the internet. And many cases like the memory about the last life are informed.Some are fakes and other look like real. If we debate about the credibility of those informations, we cant end the debate for sure. So here, I dont talk about the credibility. In stead, we decide the existance of the reincarnation as a defenition this time.
The other day, i was watching at the movile phone and thinking about the structure of reincarnation.
If you have a movile phone and you use that movile phone for your gilr/boy friend only, you can always hear the voice which express the mind of your girl/boy friend. And if you break that phone one day, your girl/boy friend die?
Hell no! Maybe you will buy a new mobile phone and keep on talking to that phone to communicate with your lovely person.
Here we put the movile phone as a body and the emitter of the voice as a 'spirit' or conciousness.
In this way of thinking,we can assume that we are in a huge data bank far away from here and act through the device called body in here.
In this structure, even if the information device(body) is broken, buy a new one (Reincarnation) to activate the informations in the data base(Spirits,Soul,Conciousness, whatever you name it...). Thats it.
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http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
(http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/barna.jpg)
More Americans Believe in the Devil, Hell and Angels than in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution
Nearly 25% of Americans Believe They Were Once another Person
Well in the sense that after every 7 years our bodies are no longer made up of any of the same molecules, you could say that we are all several people in a lifetime, and infinitely more throughout the unfathomable endlessness of spacetime. :)
But yes Americans are stupid, and God is made up. Scary for the rest of the world who have to be bullied around by this unintelligent behemoth of a country.
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There are many cases of the memories about the last life.
Our soul is nothing special like those religious freaks think.
Its just a complex form of electric information inside of our brain and body.
When you turn off your computer, the electric stream and the magnetic field wont vanish suddenly. It remains for a while.
Once a certain form is formed. That form try to maintain(stabilize) itself=Existance.
For stabilizing that form, new electric device is needed(new born babys brain).
If its not baby, it will show up as the possesion.
Our brain is receiving many infos and getting many influence subconciously easily. Its not strange that we get some electric infos when our brain was fresh and clean. In a sence, this is a kind of possesion. And in this mean, all the people are possesed by some spirits(electric info) called "Ego".
And also. Nothing is forever, those spirits(electric info) is also alterd state.
And also I post about my concept of reincarnation in my blog.
The Structure of Reincarnation
About the reincarnation, we can find out any infomations in any book stores and the internet. And many cases like the memory about the last life are informed.Some are fakes and other look like real. If we debate about the credibility of those informations, we cant end the debate for sure. So here, I dont talk about the credibility. In stead, we decide the existance of the reincarnation as a defenition this time.
The other day, i was watching at the movile phone and thinking about the structure of reincarnation.
If you have a movile phone and you use that movile phone for your gilr/boy friend only, you can always hear the voice which express the mind of your girl/boy friend. And if you break that phone one day, your girl/boy friend die?
Hell no! Maybe you will buy a new mobile phone and keep on talking to that phone to communicate with your lovely person.
Here we put the movile phone as a body and the emitter of the voice as a 'spirit' or conciousness.
In this way of thinking,we can assume that we are in a huge data bank far away from here and act through the device called body in here.
In this structure, even if the information device(body) is broken, buy a new one (Reincarnation) to activate the informations in the data base(Spirits,Soul,Conciousness, whatever you name it...). Thats it.
Oh brother.. what a blithering idiot...
and i thought they had a good educational system in China. guess you where not a part of that ;D
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Oh brother.. what a blithering idiot...
and i thought they had a good educational system in China. guess you where not a part of that ;D
Then tell me how idiot I am.
If you prove it, I accept your opinion.
Go ahead.
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Didn't read any of this crap but is there anyway you may move to another country (please). Hopefully all the shit you cut & paste will convince you to move elsewhere.
ahahahahahaha...
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Then tell me how idiot I am.
If you prove it, I accept your opinion.
Go ahead.
kinda speaks for itself.
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kinda speaks for itself.
Kyomu speak good. Speak he 12 languages. Paco hard and good with body muscles i see.
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kinda speaks for itself.
Yeah, you are right.
I am enough idiot to give a pearl to pigs.
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Kyomu speak good. Speak he 12 languages. Paco hard and good with body muscles i see.
Hahahahhahaaa. You guys are always making fun of us.
But,you guys always buy our products.
why dont you buy those shitty quality products of your own country in stead? ;D
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You guys are always saying "science".
Then how many of you guys can explain the quantum theory?
STill you guys are living in the Newtons macro physic principle arnt you?
Study before talking.
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Who cares about America anyway? ???
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Unbelievable......but I bet those idiots could tell you who won Dancing with the Stars...... :-\
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http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
(http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/barna.jpg)
More Americans Believe in the Devil, Hell and Angels than in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution
Nearly 25% of Americans Believe They Were Once another Person
ROCHESTER, N.Y. – December 10, 2008 – That very large majorities of the American public believe in God, miracles, the survival of the soul after death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Virgin birth will come as no great surprise. What may be more surprising is that substantial minorities believe in ghosts, UFOs, witches, astrology, and the belief that they themselves were once other people. Overall, more people believe in the devil, hell and angels than believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution.
These are some of the results of The Harris Poll®, a new nationwide survey of 2,126 U.S. adults surveyed online between November 10 and 17, 2008 by Harris Interactive®.
Some of the interesting findings in this new Harris Poll include:
80% of adult Americans believe in God – unchanged since the last time we asked the question in 2005. Large majorities of the public believe in miracles (75%), heaven (73%), angels (71%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (71%), the resurrection of Jesus (70%), the survival of the soul after death (68%), hell (62%), the Virgin birth (Jesus born of Mary (61%) and the devil (59%).
Slightly more people – but both are minorities – believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (47%) than in creationism (40%).
Sizeable minorities believe in ghosts (44%), UFOs (36%), witches (31%), astrology (31%), and reincarnation (24%).
Differences between Catholics and Protestants
There are no significant differences between the large percentages of Catholics and Protestants who believe in God, miracles, heaven and hell, that Jesus is the Son of God, angels, the resurrection of Jesus, the survival of the soul after death, the Virgin birth and the devil.
However, Catholics are more likely than Protestants to believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (by 52% to 32%), ghosts (by 57% to 41%), UFOs (by 43% to 31%), and astrology (by 40% to 28%). Protestants are slightly more likely than Catholics to believe in creationism (by 54% to 46%).
Which Religious Texts Are the "Word of God"
Slender majorities of all adults believe that all or most of the Old Testament (55%) and the New Testament (54%) are the "Word of God." However, only about a third of all adults (37% and 36%) believe that all of these texts are the word of God.
Interestingly, only 26% of all adults believe that the Torah is the word of God, even though it is the same as the first five books of the Old Testament. Presumably many people do not know this.
Religiosity and Religious Practice
Less than a quarter of Americans describe themselves are "very religious." However, a large majority (68%) describe themselves as either very (23%) or somewhat (45%) religious.
A quarter (27%) of adult Americans claim that they attend church once a week or more often, compared with 36% who say they attend less than once a year or never (18% each).
A Note on the Methodology Used and How It Affects the Results
Other research has shown that when replying to a question administered impersonally by a computer, people are less likely to say they believe in God, or attend Church services when they really don’t. It is generally believed that surveys conducted by live interviewers tend to exaggerate the numbers of people who report the socially desirable, or less embarrassing, behavior, and that the replies given to an online survey such as this, are more honest and therefore more accurate.
Methodology
This Harris Poll® was conducted online within the United States between November 10 and 17, 2008 among 2,126 adults (aged 18 and over). Figures for age, sex, race/ethnicity, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online.
All sample surveys and polls, whether or not they use probability sampling, are subject to multiple sources of error which are most often not possible to quantify or estimate, including sampling error, coverage error, error associated with nonresponse, error associated with question wording and response options, and post-survey weighting and adjustments. Therefore, Harris Interactive avoids the words "margin of error" as they are misleading. All that can be calculated are different possible sampling errors with different probabilities for pure, unweighted, random samples with 100% response rates. These are only theoretical because no published polls come close to this ideal.
Respondents for this survey were selected from among those who have agreed to participate in Harris Interactive surveys. The data have been weighted to reflect the composition of the adult population. Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated.
These statements conform to the principles of disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls.
Dude..I believe in hard work and loyalty to my family... Try to treat people with the same respect they have towards me ,eat right and exercises.. Phuck you and your bullsh!t !
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omg :o
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ROCHESTER, N.Y. – December 10, 2008 –
;D
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Unbelievable......but I bet those idiots could tell you who won Dancing with the Stars...... :-\
why does somebody wants to stay so fucking dumb?
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why does somebody wants to stay so fucking dumb?
You don't have to be educated to get into heaven.
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Dude..I believe in hard work and loyalty to my family... Try to treat people with the same respect they have towards me ,eat right and exercises.. Phuck you and your bullsh!t !
irony.
:)
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hahaha yes, your country is going downhill
soon, the canada will be the most powerfull country on earth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahah ahahahaha :D
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hahaha yes, your country is going downhill
soon, the canada will be the most powerfull country on earth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahah ahahahaha :D
If America suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth I doubt it would be Canada that would take it's place. More likely it will be countries like China or Russia or even North Korea. Then we'll see how great the world will be without the imperialist American infidels.
We're the world's policeman because the world needs a policeman because guess what? there's a lot of evil in the world. If it wasn't us who would you rather it be? Who would you want the world to be policed by that has the capability? I'll tell you one thing, it sure as hell ain't going to be Canada. If Canada was attacked right now by another country who do you think they would be crying for help? Germany? Sweden? France? Russia? UK?
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americans have a better future than europeans because fortune helps who has faith
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If America suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth I doubt it would be Canada that would take it's place. More likely it will be countries like China or Russia or even North Korea. Then we'll see how great the world will be without the imperialist American infidels.
We're the world's policeman because the world needs a policeman because guess what? there's a lot of evil in the world. If it wasn't us who would you rather it be? Who would you want the world to be policed by that has the capability? I'll tell you one thing, it sure as hell ain't going to be Canada. If Canada was attacked right now by another country who do you think they would be crying for help? Germany? Sweden? France? Russia? UK?
lol.
whatever.
we cry to nobody.
our support in world war one was the reason the germans were defeated. without it, the americans would have had their asses handed to them and europe as we know it would be the big state of germany and world politics changed forever.
then there was the war of 1812, but being american you'll prolly not want to debate that one either.
people like you are the reason americans are the most hated nation in the world. your attitude and ignorance causes the country as a whole to be viewed as such when there are many americans who are great people.
it's people like you the rest of the world hates, it's just unfortunate that good americans happen to get lumped in with you as you all share the same land mass.
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(http://www.motivationalbuck.com/pix/Low_c51acf6fcbe5477.jpg)
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lol.
whatever.
we cry to nobody.
our support in world war one was the reason the germans were defeated. without it, the americans would have had their asses handed to them and europe as we know it would be the big state of germany and world politics changed forever.
then there was the war of 1812, but being american you'll prolly not want to debate that one either.
people like you are the reason americans are the most hated nation in the world. your attitude and ignorance causes the country as a whole to be viewed as such when there are many americans who are great people.
it's people like you the rest of the world hates, it's just unfortunate that good americans happen to get lumped in with you as you all share the same land mass.
8) 8) 8)
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Adonis, trust me, I am more intelligent than you and yet I believe in God. Why? Well, it would take a moron to truly believe that chaos and chance resulted in the incredible complexities of the universe. If you have ANY understanding of science it is just absurb to believe that there isn't some underlying driver that started things and allowed them to evolve as they did.
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Adonis, trust me, I am more intelligent than you and yet I believe in God. Why? Well, it would take a moron to truly believe that chaos and chance resulted in the incredible complexities of the universe. If you have ANY understanding of science it is just absurb to believe that there isn't some underlying driver that started things and allowed them to evolve as they did.
But Adam designed a gravity suit.
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lol.
whatever.
we cry to nobody.
our support in world war one was the reason the germans were defeated. without it, the americans would have had their asses handed to them and europe as we know it would be the big state of germany and world politics changed forever.
then there was the war of 1812, but being american you'll prolly not want to debate that one either.
people like you are the reason americans are the most hated nation in the world. your attitude and ignorance causes the country as a whole to be viewed as such when there are many americans who are great people.
it's people like you the rest of the world hates, it's just unfortunate that good americans happen to get lumped in with you as you all share the same land mass.
You're not crying because you are protected by us. And are you sure we are the most hated nation? Where do you think people from all over the world are trying to move to? Whose culture does the world most try to emulate? Not hated my ungrateful friend but envious and jealous.
America is not perfect but compare it to any Arab country? South America? North Korea? Russia? Want to compare what America does for the world compared to Canada? How many people do they feed? What were Canada's contributions to Africa recently? What role did Canada play when Milosovec was slaughtering Muslims? Or when Hussein invaded Kuwait and tried to control the world's oil supply? Remember the tidal waves and earthquakes? Who jumped to the recue? Canada?
Thank your ungrateful lucky stars that there's an America to keep the wolves at bay. Russia, China and North Korea, not to mention the Islamic world, would have a feeding frenzy if there were no US?
"Whatever" is right, eh?
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But Adam designed a gravity suit.
Yes he did. And it looks great
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BTW, just to be clear. I don't want to bag on Canada as such. They are great people, the country is free and non-oppressive. They are heads and tails above most of the world in regard to human rights and just plain decency. They are a strong and valued ally to America. I'm sure I'd be just as happy (and miserable) as I am in the US. as in Canada. And they have one of the greatest pound for pound MMA fighters in the world, George St. Pierre, who conducts himself with class and dignity and does his country proud.
I just don't like this America bashing and the constant demonization of my country.
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I just don't like this America bashing and the constant demonization of my country.
Mostly, it's 'cause we matter.
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Adonis, trust me, I am more intelligent than you and yet I believe in God. Why? Well, it would take a moron to truly believe that chaos and chance resulted in the incredible complexities of the universe. If you have ANY understanding of science it is just absurb to believe that there isn't some underlying driver that started things and allowed them to evolve as they did.
I don't like call anybody a moron in regard to metaphysics and not necessarily try to prove whether or not one is right or wrong because in these issues nothing can objectively be proven. How can I prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the existence of God? What I hope for is clarity. Just to be clear on the alternatives and the implications?
Either God has always existed and is the creator of all things or Matter, i.e, stuff, has always existed, never created, but just somehow just is, and due to the random concussions of arbitrary events we have what we have now.
Now, I'm sure TA's close reading, intellectual that he is, of Dostoesky's, "The Brother's Karamazov" will remember the telling line, "Without God all is permitted." Meaning that if there is no final arbiter of justice, no cosmic right and wrong, that a Mother Teresa and an Adolph Hitler share the same fate. That goodness, doing the right thing, morality -- really has no ultimate meaning. That one merely operates in accordance with their own personal self-interest with little or any regard on how it make effect others insofar as how those others may effect you (be nice to your boss so he'll be nice to you). There's no value system above and beyond what you feel personally is right and can personally justify and how much of your own selfishness or even ruthlessness you can stomach. In other words, there's nobody, other than yourself, you have to ultimately answer to. No eternal reward or punishment for the good or bad you have done in the world. Life, in the grand eternal sense has no real transcendent meaning. No reward for being good. No punishment for being bad.
This is, of course, no proof either pro or con but a clarification of a secular world versus govern by divine law. So take your pick: God and eternal justice or Matter/Stuff where transcendent morality is meaningless. I can't prove either but I do believe one's world view has a profound effect on how one lives their life. We use to have a saying in Philosophy: "Your metaphysics determine your ethics."
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Adonis, trust me, I am more intelligent than you and yet I believe in God. Why? Well, it would take a moron to truly believe that chaos and chance resulted in the incredible complexities of the universe. If you have ANY understanding of science it is just absurb to believe that there isn't some underlying driver that started things and allowed them to evolve as they did.
You believe in god? That's a bit unspecific. There are so many to choose from. What god do you believe in?
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I don't like call anybody a moron in regard to metaphysics and not necessarily try to prove whether or not one is right or wrong because in these issues nothing can objectively be proven. How can I prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the existence of God? What I hope for is clarity. Just to be clear on the alternatives and the implications?
Either God has always existed and is the creator of all things or Matter, i.e, stuff, has always existed, never created, but just somehow just is, and due to the random concussions of arbitrary events we have what we have now.
Now, I'm sure TA's close reading, intellectual that he is, of Dostoesky's, "The Brother's Karamazov" will remember the telling line, "Without God all is permitted." Meaning that if there is no final arbiter of justice, no cosmic right and wrong, that a Mother Teresa and an Adolph Hitler share the same fate. That goodness, doing the right thing, morality -- really has no ultimate meaning. That one merely operates in accordance with their own personal self-interest with little or any regard on how it make effect others insofar as how those others may effect you (be nice to your boss so he'll be nice to you). There's no value system above and beyond what you feel personally is right and can personally justify and how much of your own selfishness or even ruthlessness you can stomach. In other words, there's nobody, other than yourself, you have to ultimately answer to. No eternal reward or punishment for the good or bad you have done in the world. Life, in the grand eternal sense has no real transcendent meaning. No reward for being good. No punishment for being bad.
This is, of course, no proof either pro or con but a clarification of a secular world versus govern by divine law. So take your pick: God and eternal justice or Matter/Stuff where transcendent morality is meaningless. I can't prove either but I do believe one's world view has a profound effect on how one lives their life. We use to have a saying in Philosophy: "Your metaphysics determine your ethics."
Good post. But see, I'm trying to be a good human being. I want the best for this world, and its people. I do things for others out of good will, not for compensation. I do the right thing, cause it's the right thing to do. Not because I believe some imaginary boogie man will strike me down if I don't.
It's a shame that some people NEED a "god" figure to be decent.
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Good post. But see, I'm trying to be a good human being. I want the best for this world, and its people. I do things for others out of good will, not for compensation. I do the right thing, cause it's the right thing to do. Not because I believe some imaginary boogie man will strike me down if I don't.
It's a shame that some people NEED a "god" figure to be decent.
Ah but you that is not enough to get into heaven. Not according to christians anyway. You can be the most selfless person in the world, if you have no faith you will not get into heaven. It's written right there in that book of theirs.
Oh you didn't believe in me? Down you go!
What a fine way to act for an all powerful all seeing being.
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Good post. But see, I'm trying to be a good human being. I want the best for this world, and its people. I do things for others out of good will, not for compensation. I do the right thing, cause it's the right thing to do. Not because I believe some imaginary boogie man will strike me down if I don't.
It's a shame that some people NEED a "god" figure to be decent.
You make a good and valid point. There are many good and decent atheist and horrible theist. But I just don't trust human nature. It is a shame that a person has to feel that they will be punished for bad things and rewarded for good things to influence their behavior. But if human nature were inherently good we would not need laws, police and jails. People like to say that those who believe in God, believe that there is a "salvation" awaiting them to stay on the straight and narrow, are inherently weak and flawed. To them I say "you are correct." I am inherently weak and flawed. I believe this is the nature of man. Blessed are those who truly have the strength and character and the sheer moral fiber to be good and decent for it's own sake. I know for me, I would leave a trail of dead bodies almost daily just from my drive to work.
Say, you're by yourself walking to your car late at night in a deserted parking lot and coming your way are a group of say 5 or 6 young adult males. Would you be a little concerned for your safety. I mean, not necessarily scared, but just say on "yellow" alert. Now would it make any difference that upon closer inspection you noticed they were carrying Bibles and were Mormons?
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Ah but you that is not enough to get into heaven. Not according to christians anyway. You can be the most selfless person in the world, if you have no faith you will not get into heaven. It's written right there in that book of theirs.
Oh you didn't believe in me? Down you go!
What a fine way to act for an all powerful all seeing being.
Yeah, it's funny how that bullshit works. You can be a great human being, but hey, you're going to hell if you don't believe.
Again, I don't believe in boogie men who will reward me with 72 virgins or heaven or everlasting life, or whatever those religions preach.
Let me put it to you this way....for the sake of argument, let's pretend god is real. I go thru life, doing everything in my power to be the best human being, and loving my fellow humans. If that is not enough for me to get into "heaven" then fuck it, I wouldn't want to be there with such a "god" anyways. I've known some pieces of shit, who "believed", and by that theory they are awaiting heaven and all its glory.
Makes no sense to me....
BTW, for those of you who "believe"....how the hell do you know your religion is the right one, and your "god" is the one to follow?
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Ah but you that is not enough to get into heaven. Not according to christians anyway. You can be the most selfless person in the world, if you have no faith you will not get into heaven. It's written right there in that book of theirs.
Oh you didn't believe in me? Down you go!
What a fine way to act for an all powerful all seeing being.
An excellent point and one that every sincere Christian is or should be ambivalent about. If I get a chance I want to put it in perspective that may make it seem not as bad as it admittedly sounds.
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BTW, for those of you who "believe"....how the hell do you know your religion is the right one, and your "god" is the one to follow?
You don't hence the faith part. But I thought the argument was not so much as to which religion or God is the true one but rather is there a creator or did things just come out of nothing and always existed.
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You make a good and valid point. There are many good and decent atheist and horrible theist. But I just don't trust human nature. It is a shame that a person has to feel that they will be punished for bad things and rewarded for good things to influence their behavior. But if human nature were inherently good we would not need laws, police and jails. People like to say that those who believe in God, believe that there is a "salvation" awaiting them to stay on the straight and narrow, are inherently weak and flawed. To them I say "you are correct." I am inherently weak and flawed. I believe this is the nature of man. Blessed are those who truly have the strength and character and the sheer moral fiber to be good and decent for it's own sake. I know for me, I would leave a trail of dead bodies almost daily just from my drive to work.
Say, you're by yourself walking to your car late at night in a deserted parking lot and coming your way are a group of say 5 or 6 young adult males. Would you be a little concerned for your safety. I mean, not necessarily scared, but just say on "yellow" alert. Now would it make any difference that upon closer inspection you noticed they were carrying Bibles and were Mormons?
Once again, good post.
Hey, believe me, I'm not perfect by any means. I'm just a guy trying to be a good person...a good human being. I'm weak and I fail in my own ways. If for no other reason, I want to set an example for my kids. I believe this world is full of darkness....I want them to be spotlights. Personally, I find that the biggest reward is in helping those who you do not know, or those who do not expect it. People ask me, "what's the reward?" To that I answer, the reward is the act itself.
In regards to your young adults question, well, I would worry if I saw them carrying bibles.... ;D
But seriously, I guess you could say I'm usually on "alert". I've lived in shit holes most my life, so that's just the way one had to be...always aware of your surroundings, so-to-speak.
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BTW, just to be clear. I don't want to bag on Canada as such. They are great people, the country is free and non-oppressive. They are heads and tails above most of the world in regard to human rights and just plain decency. They are a strong and valued ally to America. I'm sure I'd be just as happy (and miserable) as I am in the US. as in Canada. And they have one of the greatest pound for pound MMA fighters in the world, George St. Pierre, who conducts himself with class and dignity and does his country proud.
I just don't like this America bashing and the constant demonization of my country.
Who are you?
Even if you "love me not" ;), I'm thinking I definitely like you! Great posts in this thread.
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Adonis, trust me, I am more intelligent than you and yet I believe in God. Why? Well, it would take a moron to truly believe that chaos and chance resulted in the incredible complexities of the universe. If you have ANY understanding of science it is just absurb to believe that there isn't some underlying driver that started things and allowed them to evolve as they did.
Haha, if only you were intelligent enough to realise how junenile this sounds. Only a weak minded person would feel the need to justify the beautiful randomness of the universe with a bunch of cosmic made up rubbish. We are the only planet we know of with life on. You can say it's a miracle that we exist, or you could say that 1 planet for every 350,000 having life on is a clear indicator of the randomness of molecule configuration throughout the universe.
Anyway, who's God is the one that exists? Do they all exist? Are all the eastern countries just making stuff up? Yet the westerners have claim to the REAL God? Haha, whatever, maybe one day we'll all believe in ghosts, or maybe one day we'll all have enough faith in ourselves not to need to fabricate something else to rely on.
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I thought your messiah was just elected and is going to bring "Change & Hope"
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I don't care what "God" someone cares to believe in, but lack of faith in something higher than humans and evolution is stupid. Our world is far to complex, the things that surround us are far to complex. No way in hell did matter just decide to gravitate toward itself and then explode. It's horseshit, it doesn't even make fundamental sense as far as the physics are concerned.
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Unbelievable......but I bet those idiots could tell you who won Dancing with the Stars...... :-\
:D
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:D
wow.
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I don't care what "God" someone cares to believe in, but lack of faith in something higher than humans and evolution is stupid. Our world is far to complex, the things that surround us are far to complex. No way in hell did matter just decide to gravitate toward itself and then explode. It's horseshit, it doesn't even make fundamental sense as far as the physics are concerned.
evolution is stupid?
so you are a beliver in "creationism"?
:-\
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From a logical perspective, being agnostic would make the most sense.
America is likely less religious than it used to be so religion is not the cause of a declining USA. We could point to a host of other factors.
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From a logical perspective, being agnostic would make the most sense.
America is likely less religious than it used to be so religion is not the cause of a declining USA. We could point to a host of other factors.
Lets See:
1. Increased taxation and govt interference in every area of our life.
2. 20 million illegal aliens draining resources of taxpayers
3. Corruption at every level of govt that would make caligula wince.
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Adonis, trust me, I am more intelligent than you and yet I believe in God. Why? Well, it would take a moron to truly believe that chaos and chance resulted in the incredible complexities of the universe. If you have ANY understanding of science it is just absurb to believe that there isn't some underlying driver that started things and allowed them to evolve as they did.
best oxymoron of the day.
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3. Corruption at every level of govt that would make caligula wince.
Damn....that cracked me up. ;D
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I don't like call anybody a moron in regard to metaphysics and not necessarily try to prove whether or not one is right or wrong because in these issues nothing can objectively be proven. How can I prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the existence of God? What I hope for is clarity. Just to be clear on the alternatives and the implications?
Either God has always existed and is the creator of all things or Matter, i.e, stuff, has always existed, never created, but just somehow just is, and due to the random concussions of arbitrary events we have what we have now.
Now, I'm sure TA's close reading, intellectual that he is, of Dostoesky's, "The Brother's Karamazov" will remember the telling line, "Without God all is permitted." Meaning that if there is no final arbiter of justice, no cosmic right and wrong, that a Mother Teresa and an Adolph Hitler share the same fate. That goodness, doing the right thing, morality -- really has no ultimate meaning. That one merely operates in accordance with their own personal self-interest with little or any regard on how it make effect others insofar as how those others may effect you (be nice to your boss so he'll be nice to you). There's no value system above and beyond what you feel personally is right and can personally justify and how much of your own selfishness or even ruthlessness you can stomach. In other words, there's nobody, other than yourself, you have to ultimately answer to. No eternal reward or punishment for the good or bad you have done in the world. Life, in the grand eternal sense has no real transcendent meaning. No reward for being good. No punishment for being bad.
This is, of course, no proof either pro or con but a clarification of a secular world versus govern by divine law. So take your pick: God and eternal justice or Matter/Stuff where transcendent morality is meaningless. I can't prove either but I do believe one's world view has a profound effect on how one lives their life. We use to have a saying in Philosophy: "Your metaphysics determine your ethics."
mother teresa did some terrible stuff... not hitler level but she was no saint... christopher hitchens has some good work on this.
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http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
(http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/barna.jpg)
More Americans Believe in the Devil, Hell and Angels than in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution
Nearly 25% of Americans Believe They Were Once another Person
ROCHESTER, N.Y. – December 10, 2008 – That very large majorities of the American public believe in God, miracles, the survival of the soul after death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Virgin birth will come as no great surprise. What may be more surprising is that substantial minorities believe in ghosts, UFOs, witches, astrology, and the belief that they themselves were once other people. Overall, more people believe in the devil, hell and angels than believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution.
These are some of the results of The Harris Poll®, a new nationwide survey of 2,126 U.S. adults surveyed online between November 10 and 17, 2008 by Harris Interactive®.
Some of the interesting findings in this new Harris Poll include:
80% of adult Americans believe in God – unchanged since the last time we asked the question in 2005. Large majorities of the public believe in miracles (75%), heaven (73%), angels (71%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (71%), the resurrection of Jesus (70%), the survival of the soul after death (68%), hell (62%), the Virgin birth (Jesus born of Mary (61%) and the devil (59%).
Slightly more people – but both are minorities – believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (47%) than in creationism (40%).
Sizeable minorities believe in ghosts (44%), UFOs (36%), witches (31%), astrology (31%), and reincarnation (24%).
Differences between Catholics and Protestants
There are no significant differences between the large percentages of Catholics and Protestants who believe in God, miracles, heaven and hell, that Jesus is the Son of God, angels, the resurrection of Jesus, the survival of the soul after death, the Virgin birth and the devil.
However, Catholics are more likely than Protestants to believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (by 52% to 32%), ghosts (by 57% to 41%), UFOs (by 43% to 31%), and astrology (by 40% to 28%). Protestants are slightly more likely than Catholics to believe in creationism (by 54% to 46%).
Which Religious Texts Are the "Word of God"
Slender majorities of all adults believe that all or most of the Old Testament (55%) and the New Testament (54%) are the "Word of God." However, only about a third of all adults (37% and 36%) believe that all of these texts are the word of God.
Interestingly, only 26% of all adults believe that the Torah is the word of God, even though it is the same as the first five books of the Old Testament. Presumably many people do not know this.
Religiosity and Religious Practice
Less than a quarter of Americans describe themselves are "very religious." However, a large majority (68%) describe themselves as either very (23%) or somewhat (45%) religious.
A quarter (27%) of adult Americans claim that they attend church once a week or more often, compared with 36% who say they attend less than once a year or never (18% each).
A Note on the Methodology Used and How It Affects the Results
Other research has shown that when replying to a question administered impersonally by a computer, people are less likely to say they believe in God, or attend Church services when they really don’t. It is generally believed that surveys conducted by live interviewers tend to exaggerate the numbers of people who report the socially desirable, or less embarrassing, behavior, and that the replies given to an online survey such as this, are more honest and therefore more accurate.
Methodology
This Harris Poll® was conducted online within the United States between November 10 and 17, 2008 among 2,126 adults (aged 18 and over). Figures for age, sex, race/ethnicity, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online.
All sample surveys and polls, whether or not they use probability sampling, are subject to multiple sources of error which are most often not possible to quantify or estimate, including sampling error, coverage error, error associated with nonresponse, error associated with question wording and response options, and post-survey weighting and adjustments. Therefore, Harris Interactive avoids the words "margin of error" as they are misleading. All that can be calculated are different possible sampling errors with different probabilities for pure, unweighted, random samples with 100% response rates. These are only theoretical because no published polls come close to this ideal.
Respondents for this survey were selected from among those who have agreed to participate in Harris Interactive surveys. The data have been weighted to reflect the composition of the adult population. Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated.
These statements conform to the principles of disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls.
Is there anything here you have ever posted or thought that was originally your own and not something you copy and pasted???
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mother teresa did some terrible stuff... not hitler level but she was no saint... christopher hitchens has some good work on this.
Um, the examples were purely arbitrary, but since the point was loss I'll let it go.
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From a logical perspective, being agnostic would make the most sense.
Absolutely right! From a logical perspective.
Remember that Star Trek Next Generation series? Remember Data, the robot/android? All zeros and ones, computerized cold logic. There was an episode when he was confronted with a similar dilemma and one of his crew mates was surprised at his almost human/emotional response. He replied that there comes a time in life when one has to make a "leap of faith."
For my part, as I go through life I have a need to know, I don't know why, that what I do matters. That what all people do ultimately matters. That it makes a difference whether you are good or bad in the grand scheme of things. Of course, there's always Pascal's wager but that kind of cheapens the game a bit.
I know that I'll never know. At least not in this life. So I take a deep breath and leap.
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Absolutely right! From a logical perspective.
Remember that Star Trek Next Generation series? Remember Data, the robot/android? All zeros and ones, computerized cold logic. There was an episode when he was confronted with a similar dilemma and one of his crew mates was surprised at his almost human/emotional response. He replied that there comes a time in life when one has to make a "leap of faith."
For my part, as I go through life I have a need to know, I don't know why, that what I do matters. That what all people do ultimately matters. That it makes a difference whether you are good or bad in the grand scheme of things. Of course, there's always Pascal's wager but that kind of cheapens the game a bit.
I know that I'll never know. At least not in this life. So I take a deep breath and leap.
so in other words (pascals wager is ridiculous also) you have to choose some answer with no evidence regardless of its truth and just choose?
how about saying you dont know and waiting till you have some real evidence to go on. If eternity existed, nothing you did matters in the grand scheme of things not the other way around.
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I'm just curious have you ever had any hope for america? I am sure in the past the numbers of believers was higher.
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Once again, good post.
Hey, believe me, I'm not perfect by any means. I'm just a guy trying to be a good person...a good human being. I'm weak and I fail in my own ways. If for no other reason, I want to set an example for my kids. I believe this world is full of darkness....I want them to be spotlights. Personally, I find that the biggest reward is in helping those who you do not know, or those who do not expect it. People ask me, "what's the reward?" To that I answer, the reward is the act itself.
In regards to your young adults question, well, I would worry if I saw them carrying bibles.... ;D
But seriously, I guess you could say I'm usually on "alert". I've lived in shit holes most my life, so that's just the way one had to be...always aware of your surroundings, so-to-speak.
To do good solely for it's own sake it truly the sign of... well, goodness. And I'm not being sarcastic as I take you at your word. Especially in a world that can be so cruelly and brutality unfair. At times it seems that doing the right things gets you the short end of the stick. In fact, there are times when I think that doing the right thing in life virtually assures that you will get the short end of the stick. As if God is testing your sincerity. After all, anybody can do anything if they are immediately rewarded rather than some, often faint hope, of future heavenly glory. But can you really realistically hold human nature to these saintly standards?
You mentioned earlier that it's sad that people need a God and a heaven to behave. Whether it's sad or not does not take away from reality. Forget God. You can say it's sad that people need the police, laws and the threat of prison or death to keep you line. Say society announces that we will have the same laws but that they just no longer will be enforced. This may have no effect on your behavior but what effect do you think it will have on crimes? Rape, robbery, murder.... Go up? Down? Stay the same?
As I said before, I don't trust human nature and when a person only has to answer to themselves, well, as Dostoesky put it, "All is permitted."
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To do good solely for it's own sake it truly the sign of... well, goodness. And I'm not being sarcastic as I take you at your word. Especially in a world that can be so cruelly and brutality unfair. At times it seems that doing the right things gets you the short end of the stick. In fact, there are times when I think that doing the right thing in life virtually assures that you will get the short end of the stick. As if God is testing your sincerity. After all, anybody can do anything if they are immediately rewarded rather than some, often faint hope, of future heavenly glory. But can you really realistically hold human nature to these saintly standards?
You mentioned earlier that it's sad that people need a God and a heaven to behave. Whether it's sad or not does not take away from reality. Forget God. You can say it's sad that people need the police, laws and the threat of prison or death to keep you line. Say society announces that we will have the same laws but that they just no longer will be enforced. This may have no effect on your behavior but what effect do you think it will have on crimes? Rape, robbery, murder.... Go up? Down? Stay the same?
As I said before, I don't trust human nature and when a person only has to answer to themselves, well, as Dostoesky put it, "All is permitted."
pretty sure the majority atheistic nations have lower crime rates then the us, a majority christian nation.
maybe good and bad dont matter and it just seems like some get rewarded and others do not, this is what one would find if there was not god and it was random= safe assumption a loving god is not there. If he is rewarding people then he is not all loving, since the children in africa are in need of some reward. :D
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so in other words (pascals wager is ridiculous also) you have to choose some answer with no evidence regardless of its truth and just choose?
how about saying you dont know and waiting till you have some real evidence to go on. If eternity existed, nothing you did matters in the grand scheme of things not the other way around.
I wouldn't say exactly no evidence. Sort of the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning. If I look at a chair I don't have absolute 100% certainty that it will hold me up. But I weigh the odds and take my chances. If I'm going on a stroll on the planet Mars and come across a calculator I can't be absolutely sure but my reasoning suggest that it didn't just randomly put itself together. When I look at all of creation, something infinitely more complex than a calculator, I weigh the odds on how likely it will be that it happened purely by chance.
Again, I can't prove anything, just like I can't prove where that calculator came from. And is a matter of faith. But it is a bit more than just closing my eyes and taking a shot in the dark and hoping I'll hit a bull's eye.
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just curious---Is Adonis the poster boy for people who like to portray they are a lot smarter than they really are? I mean hes an insurance adjuster who lives at home. Why the big act.
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To do good solely for it's own sake it truly the sign of... well, goodness. And I'm not being sarcastic as I take you at your word. Especially in a world that can be so cruelly and brutality unfair. At times it seems that doing the right things gets you the short end of the stick. In fact, there are times when I think that doing the right thing in life virtually assures that you will get the short end of the stick. As if God is testing your sincerity. After all, anybody can do anything if they are immediately rewarded rather than some, often faint hope, of future heavenly glory. But can you really realistically hold human nature to these saintly standards?
You mentioned earlier that it's sad that people need a God and a heaven to behave. Whether it's sad or not does not take away from reality. Forget God. You can say it's sad that people need the police, laws and the threat of prison or death to keep you line. Say society announces that we will have the same laws but that they just no longer will be enforced. This may have no effect on your behavior but what effect do you think it will have on crimes? Rape, robbery, murder.... Go up? Down? Stay the same?
As I said before, I don't trust human nature and when a person only has to answer to themselves, well, as Dostoesky put it, "All is permitted."
The inherent problem with your dime store analysis is the glaring fact that Atheists make up less than 1 percent of America`s prisons whereas Christians make up 90 percent. With the other Religions rounding off 100 percent at 9 percent.
Side note you are completely WRONG. Dostoeksy NEVER said "All is Permitted". Perhaps you should actually read what you falsely quote so you won`t make that error in the future.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/cortesi1.html
Dostoevsky Didn't Say It
Exploring a widely-propagated misattribution
By David E. Cortesi
Possibly the best-known quote from the works of Dostoevsky is this:
"If God does not exist, everything is permitted."
You can see it, for example, on the title page of the self-designated "Dostoevsky Resource on the Net" by Christiaan Stange; and again in the Quotes section of Luís Greco's Dostoevsky page; and yet again (possibly lifted intact from Stange's page) on Luba Petersen's Dostoevsky site.
This sound-bite sentence has propagated widely into popular religious debate on the internet. Like any good sound-bite, it neatly encapsulates the fears and hopes of a diverse audience: the believer's fear of, and the nonbeliever's hope for, a secular moral system.
There is only problem with this well-known quote:
Dostoevsky never wrote it!
I say this with confidence because I have searched the online text of the Constance Garnett translation of The Brothers Karamazov, examining every use of "God" and "exist" and "lawful" ("lawful" is how Garnett translates the word that others translate as "permitted").
The sentence does not appear, nor anything close to it. Nor does it appear in any of the other four Dostoevsky novels whose complete English texts are available online. The fact that a nonexistent text can be widely attributed to a famous author reveals the limitations of pre-computer scholarship. The fact that I could so quickly prove it erroneous highlights the opportunities for modern scholars.
Correct Citation
It is true that "If God does not exist, everything is permitted" is an accurate capsule description of the belief espoused by Ivan Karamazov in the early chapters of The Brothers Karamazov. Ivan has concluded, or pretends to conclude, that there is no God, no immortality. As what he claims is a logical consequence, "everything is lawful." However, Ivan never speaks the sentence in question, and neither does any other character in the novel! The phrase, "everything is lawful," is used frequently by other characters as an idea that they got from Ivan. And once, Ivan says "If there is no immortality, there is no virtue." But the magic sound-bite sentence is not to be found.
Katharena Eiermann, a true scholar, uses the sentence properly in her essay on Existentialism and Dostoevsky, where she writes,
Jean Paul Sartre has said that all of French Existentialism is to be found in Ivan Karamazov's contention that if there is no God, everything is permitted.
This is correct scholarship in two respects:
* Eiermann does not put quotes around text that is not, in fact, a quote.
* She makes it plain that the statement belongs to a character, Ivan Karamazov -- not to the authorial voice of Dostoevsky himself.
These two points are essential to prevent misunderstanding. It is wrong to use double-quotes around text that is not an exact quote, because to do so tells an untruth about the cited author, saying he wrote certain words when he didn't.
What Did Dostoevsky Think?
While it is undeniable that Ivan advances this view, that does not mean it is Dostoevsky's view, and it is wrong to imply that it is -- at least, without more support. In this respect, note that the sentence is a logical implication, if A then B. Ivan advances the truth of the implication as a whole, apparently as an intellectual proposition.In common talk, people assume that a claim if A then B automatically implies the contrary claim ...and if not-A then not-B. However, logic is not common-sensical. When the antecedent A is not true, an implication is not automatically false; it becomes null -- the truth of B is simply unknown.
To my rather casual reading, it appears that the whole irony of The Brothers Karamazov is that Ivan advances this logical statement, but later admits to Alyosha that, in fact, he believes in God. Hence Ivan has believed right from the start that the antecedent is false and, therefore, that the implication is null -- it was never more than an intellectual toy. Alas, other characters take the succedent B seriously and act on it, resulting in great evil, for which Ivan must feel indirectly responsible.
In any case, did Dostoevsky himself mean to argue the truth of the logical implication? Or to argue either the antecedent (God does not exist) or the succedent (everything is lawful) separately? Did Dostoevsky believe the inverse statement ("If God does exist, then not everything is lawful")? Or did he only believe mean to show that almost everyone else believes it true, without examination?
Frankly, I don't know the answers. What I do know is that many, many people have assumed three things that (it seems to me) are not supported by the text of The Brothers Karamazov:
1. Dostoevsky himself wrote the sentence "If God does not exist, everything is lawful."
2. Dostoevsky meant by that, that it is impossible to have a moral system without God (in other words, that he himself felt that both the statement and its inverse were true).
3. Dostoevsky believed in God.
Sloppy Work
Here's an interesting exercise for you. Go to the Alta Vista Advanced Search window and enter this in the boolean expression box:
(Dostoevsky OR Dostoyevsky) NEAR "If God"
The returned pages will give you an idea of how far Dostoevsky's sound-bite has propagated. The search hits you find will vary day by day. When I ran it, I found such items as, in a book review by Richard T. Oakes:
... he felt with Dostoevsky that if God does not exist then all things are permitted.
This attributes the character's view to the author.
On the Penguin Books web site under Author Links appears:
Fyodor Dostoevsky -- "If God does not exist then everything is permitted"
In online lecture notes on Dostoevsky, Prof. Jay Gallagher makes a surprising slip,
Russian Orthodox Christianity was for Dostoevsky the answer to the problem of nihilism he saw growing around him. This problem was succinctly summarized by him through the famous words of Ivan Karamazov: "If God is dead, all is permitted."
While this properly attributes the idea to the character, I don't believe the phrase "If God is dead" appears in the book.
In an essay on the Attributes of God by Jay Rogers, "everything" is changed to "anything," a subtle change of meaning:
Dostoyevsky said, "Anything is permissible if there is no God."
In an essay by Vladimir Moss we find a rather bizarre distortion,
It was in reflecting on the French Revolution that Dostoevsky uttered his famous saying: "If God does not exist, then everything [that is, everything that is evil] is permitted."
Besides the dubious association with the French Revolution (not a featured element of The Brothers Karamazov), this asserts that Dostoevsky "uttered" the sentence that everyone else at least assumes was written. And the insertion of the bracketed gloss "that is, everything that is evil" is entirely unjustified.
In an essay by Jim Leffel we again find "possible" with a conditional "would be."
Dostoevsky said, 'If God didn't exist, everything would be possible.'"
In the Agnostic Bible is found the same conditional verb, but "permissible" in place of "possible."
12. The moral argument from the consequences of atheism (If God did not exist, everything would be permissible -- Dostoevsky).
The shotgun approach to citations is shown in the Psychedelic Library:
...as Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, and others realized very clearly, "If God is dead, then anything is permitted, anything is possible."
Other pages turn up in the search; explore a few. Some of the misquotes are amusing, as in this, from a site that might as well remain nameless:
...like Ivan Dostoevsky stated, "If God...
Did Sartre Start It?
On a page of the Humanism.org site I found this:
Referring to one of the inspirations of Existentialism, Dostoyevsky, Sartre says: Dostoyevsky wrote: If God does not exist, everything is permitted and for Existentialism this is the starting-point .
Aha! Could it have been Sartre who started all this trouble? On a page of quotes (the number of web pages that are just collections of quotes is truly staggering) we find:
Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980)
"The existentialist...finds it extremely embarrassing that God does not exist, for there disappears with him all possibility of finding values in an intelligible heaven....Dostoevsky once wrote, 'If God did not exist, everything would be permitted,
As with most such collections of quotes, the compiler omits to give the source for the text, which greatly reduces the value of the site. However, if this correctly reflects Sartre's understanding, it would explain a great deal.
To begin with, consider the difficulty, pre-Internet, of verifying a one-sentence quotation in a book of a quarter-million words like The Brothers Karamazov. You come across this very appealing sound-bite in the in the work of a well-known writer like Sartre, and you'd like to use it.
Then suppose that you, like me, get a little tremor of suspicion. "Did Dostoevsky really say exactly that? And did he put it in the mouth of a character, and if so, which character?" Until a very few years ago, the only way you could answer such questions would be to sit down and reread The Brothers Karamazov (or, if you are a full professor, assign that job to a research assistant). Who could justify that amount of time to verify a single well-known quote? You would go with the quote as you have seen it, trusting in that prior writer.
Very possibly Sartre is the "authoritative" source whose mis-attribution is the root source for this widespread mistake. Was he at fault? Perhaps he mis-remembered his reading of Dostoevsky; or perhaps he read a French translation of the novel that did indeed use the sentence. In either case, he was sloppy in attributing the idea to Dostoevsky, not his character.
The Web Makes Honest Scholars of Us All
With the internet, it is no longer necessary to propagate such errors, and writers of honesty should no longer do so. Most "great books" are online in full-text versions (see for example the English Server at CMU; there are also multiple searchable versions of the Bible, Quran, and the Buddhist canon). A search through a book the size of The Brothers Karamazov takes minutes. A search for prior work using Alta Vista or any of the similar engines also takes less than an hour to carry out.
There is really no excuse for guessing at, or simply re-inventing, citations, as so many seem to have done with Dostoevsky.
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oh lord the cut and paste king is at it big time
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I do admit to lacking the considerable cut and paste skills of our own TA. But I have actually read the book and highlighted the passage in question. Now granted I may posses an inferior Russian translation and strictly speaking it is spoken through the character Ivan Karamasov rather than the direct views of the author himself.
I once found through google convincing evidence that Hitler was alive and well and working as a waiter in Eucador. Amazing what you can find on the net.
I suggest that maybe you should actually read real books and give google a break. Your credibility is fading and your pompous intellectual displays are exposing you as the true lightweight, both physically and intellectually, you are. These shirtless pictures you like to post of yourself. Do you really believe that adds to your credibility.
But one can forget Fyodor, may i call him Fyodor?, and his quotes. I stand by the concept no matter who said it. how about addressing the arguments presented in your own words and your own thoughts.
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I do admit to lacking the considerable cut and paste skills of our own TA. But I have actually read the book and highlighted the passage in question. Now granted I may posses an inferior Russian translation and strictly speaking it is spoken through the character Ivan Karamasov rather than the direct views of the author himself.
I once found through google convincing evidence that Hitler was alive and well and working as a waiter in Eucador. Amazing what you can find on the net.
I suggest that maybe you should actually read real books and give google a break. Your credibility is fading and your pompous intellectual displays are exposing you as the true lightweight, both physically and intellectually, you are. These shirtless pictures you like to post of yourself. Do you really believe that adds to your credibility.
But one can forget Fyodor, may i call him Fyodor?, and his quotes. I stand by the concept no matter who said it. how about addressing the arguments presented in your own words and your own thoughts.
Why did you choose to ignore my above statement of "The inherent problem with your dime store analysis is the glaring fact that Atheists make up less than 1 percent of America`s prisons whereas Christians make up 90 percent. With the other Religions rounding off 100 percent at 9 percent". Clearly this burns your reiteration of the propagated misattribution that you continue to help mythologize.
That is a propagated misattribution of "Fyodor". Read any scholarly work about your misquotation. This is not a question teetering between fact and fiction. I guess you could care less about the truth.
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I wouldn't say exactly no evidence. Sort of the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning. If I look at a chair I don't have absolute 100% certainty that it will hold me up. But I weigh the odds and take my chances. If I'm going on a stroll on the planet Mars and come across a calculator I can't be absolutely sure but my reasoning suggest that it didn't just randomly put itself together. When I look at all of creation, something infinitely more complex than a calculator, I weigh the odds on how likely it will be that it happened purely by chance.
Again, I can't prove anything, just like I can't prove where that calculator came from. And is a matter of faith. But it is a bit more than just closing my eyes and taking a shot in the dark and hoping I'll hit a bull's eye.
so you see vast complexity as requiring a creator?
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Prison Population
1997
U.S. Prisoners
Atheist
0.209%
Federal Bureau of Prisons
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Prison Population
1997
U.S. Prisoners
Atheist
0.209%
Federal Bureau of Prisons
And this proves or disproves the existence of God how?
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And this proves or disproves the existence of God how?
Disproves YOUR thesis, not Dostoevsky`s of "All is permitted".
Your previous thesis is not valid when considering who breaks the law and who does not and who is in prison and who is not.
If you have forgotten what you have wrote, please scroll up.
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so you see vast complexity as requiring a creator?
Not requiring. Just sort of pushing the odds in favor.
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Also let me add, the probability for your God existing is lower than for God not to exist.
It is simply not either or and equal.
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Not requiring. Just sort of pushing the odds in favor.
wouldn't god have to be more complex then the universe?
wouldn't, by your logic, that then require an explanation for him since such high degrees of complexity could not happen by 'chance'?
whenever you evoke something outside the universe to explain the universe you are opening pandora's box. Taking a leap of faith is only required to quell your anxieties about death and the unknown. The intelligent position IS to say you don't know. However, from this creation,i can safely make some assumptions about a creator if he did exist. ::)
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Natural Selection is not pure chance and has nothing to do with chance. Just thought I would point that out as well.
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Disproves YOUR thesis, not Dostoevsky`s of "All is permitted".
Your previous thesis is not valid when considering who breaks the law and who does not and who is in prison and who is not.
If you have forgotten what you have wrote, please scroll up.
I had a thesis? I spoke of prison and prisoners where exactly?
Only psuedo intellectuals like to speak in terms of thesis.
BTW, I sense anger. Remember what Bertrand Russell said about anger in a debate? (google it).
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Natural Selection is not pure chance and has nothing to do with chance. Just thought I would point that out as well.
hey adonis, your writing is looking familiar to someone who drinks piss, that wouldn't be the case would it? ;D
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To do good solely for it's own sake it truly the sign of... well, goodness. And I'm not being sarcastic as I take you at your word. Especially in a world that can be so cruelly and brutality unfair. At times it seems that doing the right things gets you the short end of the stick. In fact, there are times when I think that doing the right thing in life virtually assures that you will get the short end of the stick. As if God is testing your sincerity. After all, anybody can do anything if they are immediately rewarded rather than some, often faint hope, of future heavenly glory. But can you really realistically hold human nature to these saintly standards?
You mentioned earlier that it's sad that people need a God and a heaven to behave. Whether it's sad or not does not take away from reality. Forget God. You can say it's sad that people need the police, laws and the threat of prison or death to keep you line. Say society announces that we will have the same laws but that they just no longer will be enforced. This may have no effect on your behavior but what effect do you think it will have on crimes? Rape, robbery, murder.... Go up? Down? Stay the same?
As I said before, I don't trust human nature and when a person only has to answer to themselves, well, as Dostoesky put it, "All is permitted."
Did you forget that you wrote this?
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Let me put it to you this way....for the sake of argument, let's pretend god is real. I go thru life, doing everything in my power to be the best human being, and loving my fellow humans. If that is not enough for me to get into "heaven" then fuck it, I wouldn't want to be there with such a "god" anyways. I've known some pieces of shit, who "believed", and by that theory they are awaiting heaven and all its glory.
Makes no sense to me....
BTW, for those of you who "believe"....how the hell do you know your religion is the right one, and your "god" is the one to follow?
WOW Gordiano, you took the words right out of my mouth .
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http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article//evo_32
Misconceptions about natural selection
Because natural selection can produce amazing adaptations, it's tempting to think of it as an all-powerful force, urging organisms on, constantly pushing them in the direction of progress — but this is not what natural selection is like at all.
First, natural selection is not all-powerful; it does not produce perfection. If your genes are "good enough," you'll get some offspring into the next generation — you don't have to be perfect. This should be pretty clear just by looking at the populations around us: people may have genes for genetic diseases, plants may not have the genes to survive a drought, a predator may not be quite fast enough to catch her prey every time she is hungry. No population or organism is perfectly adapted.
Second, it's more accurate to think of natural selection as a process rather than as a guiding hand. Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity — it is mindless and mechanistic. It has no goals; it's not striving to produce "progress" or a balanced ecosystem.
Formula for natural selection
(http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/images/evo/formula.gif)
This is why "need," "try," and "want" are not very accurate words when it comes to explaining evolution. The population or individual does not "want" or "try" to evolve, and natural selection cannot try to supply what an organism "needs." Natural selection just selects among whatever variations exist in the population. The result is evolution.
At the opposite end scale, natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a random process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random-but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don't. Natural selection is NOT random!
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Also let me add, the probability for your God existing is lower than for God not to exist.
It is simply not either or and equal.
How?
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Natural Selection is not pure chance and has nothing to do with chance. Just thought I would point that out as well.
Agreed.
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Did you forget that you wrote this?
No. My point being that without a system of reward and punishment we would have a very different society.
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wouldn't god have to be more complex then the universe?
wouldn't, by your logic, that then require an explanation for him since such high degrees of complexity could not happen by 'chance'?
whenever you evoke something outside the universe to explain the universe you are opening pandora's box. Taking a leap of faith is only required to quell your anxieties about death and the unknown. The intelligent position IS to say you don't know. However, from this creation,i can safely make some assumptions about a creator if he did exist. ::)
Actually, I made it abundately clear that I didn't know and we are speaking of matters of faith. Either matter always existed or that there was a creator that always existed. As Carl Sagan, an avowed atheist, said, it's just a matter of one step. He stopped at matter. That there was always just matter and everything happened purely by chance. Fair enough.
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Shoots! I have to go. This is a great site. I was bored to tears at BB.com
Where else can you go to read about David Henry's back, Nasser Nights, Fartchair switcheroo, Protein Powder prices, gh15 god of hormones, Mentzer's magnificant stache, Urine Therapy, Coleman/Yates back and to discuss Life, The Universe and Everything. This place is a gold mine! I'd die for you bitches!
So long (for now) and thanks for all the fish!
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TA, you know relating those statistics of religious affiliations among prisoners isn't the best evidence you could use to refute the opinion of luv.
Just because someone marks themself down as christian on their entry form going into Prison hardly makes them a believer and follower of Jesus Christ. I would suggest that most of them never thought once or twice about religion or spirituality. If more of them did there would probably be more who claim themselves to be atheists...i doubt much more than half of those in prison even know what an atheist is. The kind of people who populate state and federal prisons are overwelmingly uneducated.
Also, you must take into account that claiming to be a christian, or a differnt religion, opens up doors to you inside the prison. In some prison systems, it allows you more time out of your cell to go to religious ceremonies and educational classes. Claiming to be a christian and to have refound your faith inside is a common statement among those seeking parole.
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TA, you know relating those statistics of religious affiliations among prisoners isn't the best evidence you could use to refute the opinion of luv.
Just because someone marks themself down as christian on their entry form going into Prison hardly makes them a believer and follower of Jesus Christ. I would suggest that most of them never thought once or twice about religion or spirituality. If more of them did there would probably be more who claim themselves to be atheists...i doubt much more than half of those in prison even know what an atheist is. The kind of people who populate state and federal prisons are overwelmingly uneducated.
Also, you must take into account that claiming to be a christian, or a differnt religion, opens up doors to you inside the prison. In some prison systems, it allows you more time out of your cell to go to religious ceremonies and educational classes. Claiming to be a christian and to have refound your faith inside is a common statement among those seeking parole.
2 things.
Most uneducated people are Christian. ;)
and
I didn`t realize there were certain rules to being a Christian. Can`t anyone just say they are a Christian and that they love Jesus and POOF! they are saved and are a Christian in just one statement thus making them a legit Christian? Or am I missing something? Is there a Christian Litmus test so to speak? Who makes the rules? Who decides who qualifies?
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The higher the IQ, the less belief in deities and religion. That's a fact.
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The higher the IQ, the less belief in deities and religion. That's a fact.
Though I haven't seen any studies or examine how they were conducted; intuitively, I would not doubt this. People with low intelligence would be more easily drawn into, well, anything. Whether it be Catholicism, Satanism, toad licking.... An intelligent person would tend to be skeptical of pretty much everything. But again this doesn't prove or disprove anything. It's the difference between causation and correlation. It's been proven that households with a lot of books tend to be better educated and have a higher intelligence. That of course doesn't mean that if I start dumping a load of books into inner city households that suddenly intelligence will go up. Having books doesn't cause an increase of intelligence but there is a correlation between those who actually buy and read books and intelligence. In other words, if you're a smart dude chances are you going to be interested in reading books.
Believing in God doesn't make you dumb anymore than not believing makes you smart. William F. Buckley, a devote Catholic, seemed pretty smart to me. But I have to admit, in an attempt at objective honesty, that if one is raised in a strict religious upbringing where diversity of thought is not only discouraged but even punished, then surely that would stifle any intellectual blossoming.
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Though I haven't seen any studies or examine how they were conducted; intuitively, I would not doubt this. People with low intelligence would be more easily drawn into, well, anything. Whether it be Catholicism, Satanism, toad licking.... An intelligent person would tend to be skeptical of pretty much everything. But again this doesn't prove or disprove anything. It's the difference between causation and correlation. It's been proven that households with a lot of books tend to be better educated and have a higher intelligence. That of course doesn't mean that if I start dumping a load of books into inner city households that suddenly intelligence will go up. Having books doesn't cause an increase of intelligence but there is a correlation between those who actually buy and read books and intelligence. In other words, if you're a smart dude chances are you going to be interested in reading books.
Believing in God doesn't make you dumb anymore than not believing makes you smart. William F. Buckley, a devote Catholic, seemed pretty smart to me. But I have to admit, in an attempt at objective honesty, that if one is raised in a strict religious upbringing where diversity of thought is not only discouraged but even punished, then surely that would stifle any intellectual blossoming.
Kinda long, but well said.
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Kinda long, but well said.
I was raised Catholic but now believe most religions as it is today is a bunch of garbage.
I believe in God, definately, but not organized religion as it is today.
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I believe in God, definately
This thread suggests you are foolish.
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This thread suggests you are foolish.
I guess Albert Einstein was foolish too?????
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I guess Albert Einstein was foolish too?????
You'll have to take it up with the thread starter.
Expect lots of pasting.
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The smartest man in America believes in God.
Christopher Michael Langan (born c. 1957) is an American autodidact whose IQ was reported by 20/20 and other media sources to have been measured at between 195 and 210.[1] Billed by some media sources as "the smartest man in America",[2] he rose to prominence in 1999 while working as a bouncer on Long Island. Langan has developed his own "theory of the relationship between mind and reality" which he calls the "Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe (CTMU)".[3][4]
Board-certified neuropsychologist Dr. Robert Novelly tested Langan's IQ for 20/20, which reported that Langan broke the ceiling of the test, scoring "off the charts". Novelly was said to be astounded, saying: "Chris is the highest individual that I have ever measured in 25 years of doing this."[5]
In conjunction with his ideas, Langan has claimed that "you can prove the existence of God, the soul and an afterlife, using mathematics."[5]
"I believe in the theory of evolution, but I believe as well in the allegorical truth of creation theory. In other words, I believe that evolution, including the principle of natural selection, is one of the tools used by God to create mankind. Mankind is then a participant in the creation of the universe itself, so that we have a closed loop. I believe that there is a level on which science and religious metaphor are mutually compatible" [6]
1 For the figure of 195, see Sager 1999, McFadden 1999, Fowler 2000, Wigmore 2000, O'Connell 2001, Brabham 2001, and Quain 2001. In Morris 2001, Langan relates that he took what was billed as "the world's most difficult IQ test" in Omni magazine, and gives his IQ as "somewhere between 190 and 210."
2 For the phrase "the smartest man in America", see Sager 1999, Fowler 2000, Wigmore 2000, and Brabham 2001. O'Connell 2001 (in the standfirst) uses "the smartest man in the world", and Quain 2001 (on the cover) uses "the Smartest Man Alive".
3 CTMU Q & A - What is the CTMU?
http://megafoundation.org/CTMU/Q&A/Archive.html#CTMU
4 Preston, Ray (November 15, 2006).
5 McFadden, Cynthia. (December 9, 1999). "The Smart Guy". 20/20.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030811145631/http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/transcripts/2020_991209_iq_trans.html
6 ABCNEWS.com Chat Transcript
http://web.archive.org/web/20000816004851/www.abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_991210_iq_chat.html
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I was raised Catholic but now believe most religions as it is today is a bunch of garbage.
I believe in God, definately, but not organized religion as it is today.
uhhh I guess you don`t know a thing about the man.
Childish superstition: Einstein's letter makes view of religion relatively clear
* The Guardian, Tuesday 13 May 2008
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/05/12/einstein460x276.jpg)
Albert Einstein
Albert Einstein, pictured in 1953. Photograph: Ruth Orkin/Hulton Archive/Getty Images
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." So said Albert Einstein, and his famous aphorism has been the source of endless debate between believers and non-believers wanting to claim the greatest scientist of the 20th century as their own.
A little known letter written by him, however, may help to settle the argument - or at least provoke further controversy about his views.
Due to be auctioned this week in London after being in a private collection for more than 50 years, the document leaves no doubt that the theoretical physicist was no supporter of religious beliefs, which he regarded as "childish superstitions".
Einstein penned the letter on January 3 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt. The letter went on public sale a year later and has remained in private hands ever since.
In the letter, he states: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
Einstein, who was Jewish and who declined an offer to be the state of Israel's second president, also rejected the idea that the Jews are God's favoured people.
"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."
The letter will go on sale at Bloomsbury Auctions in Mayfair on Thursday and is expected to fetch up to Ł8,000. The handwritten piece, in German, is not listed in the source material of the most authoritative academic text on the subject, Max Jammer's book Einstein and Religion.
One of the country's leading experts on the scientist, John Brooke of Oxford University, admitted he had not heard of it.
Einstein is best known for his theories of relativity and for the famous E=mc2 equation that describes the equivalence of mass and energy, but his thoughts on religion have long attracted conjecture.
His parents were not religious but he attended a Catholic primary school and at the same time received private tuition in Judaism. This prompted what he later called, his "religious paradise of youth", during which he observed religious rules such as not eating pork. This did not last long though and by 12 he was questioning the truth of many biblical stories.
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Einstein`s 1954 letter:
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/05/17/science/einstein600.jpg)
Einstein, as he says in his autobiographical notes, lost his religion at the age of 12, concluding that it was all a lie, and he never looked back.
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Told ya.
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I don't think anyone bothers to read TA's cut and pasting. Another example of his intellectual laziness. But if I recall, Einstein consider himself a Pantheist. Loosely defined as the universe, nature, God -- all the same thing.
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The Holy Bible:
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools
Be careful, do not mess with your eternity.
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http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
ROCHESTER, N.Y. – December 10, 2008 – That very large majorities of the American public believe in God, miracles, the survival of the soul after death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Virgin birth will come as no great surprise. What may be more surprising is that substantial minorities believe in ghosts, UFOs, witches, astrology, and the belief that they themselves were once other people. Overall, more people believe in the devil, hell and angels than believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution.
These are some of the results of The Harris Poll®, a new nationwide survey of 2,126 U.S. adults surveyed online between November 10 and 17, 2008 by Harris Interactive®.
Some of the interesting findings in this new Harris Poll include:
80% of adult Americans believe in God – unchanged since the last time we asked the question in 2005. Large majorities of the public believe in miracles (75%), heaven (73%), angels (71%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (71%), the resurrection of Jesus (70%), the survival of the soul after death (68%), hell (62%), the Virgin birth (Jesus born of Mary (61%) and the devil (59%).
Slightly more people – but both are minorities – believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (47%) than in creationism (40%).
Sizeable minorities believe in ghosts (44%), UFOs (36%), witches (31%), astrology (31%), and reincarnation (24%).
Differences between Catholics and Protestants
There are no significant differences between the large percentages of Catholics and Protestants who believe in God, miracles, heaven and hell, that Jesus is the Son of God, angels, the resurrection of Jesus, the survival of the soul after death, the Virgin birth and the devil.
However, Catholics are more likely than Protestants to believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution (by 52% to 32%), ghosts (by 57% to 41%), UFOs (by 43% to 31%), and astrology (by 40% to 28%). Protestants are slightly more likely than Catholics to believe in creationism (by 54% to 46%).
Which Religious Texts Are the "Word of God"
Slender majorities of all adults believe that all or most of the Old Testament (55%) and the New Testament (54%) are the "Word of God." However, only about a third of all adults (37% and 36%) believe that all of these texts are the word of God.
Interestingly, only 26% of all adults believe that the Torah is the word of God, even though it is the same as the first five books of the Old Testament. Presumably many people do not know this.
Religiosity and Religious Practice
Less than a quarter of Americans describe themselves are "very religious." However, a large majority (68%) describe themselves as either very (23%) or somewhat (45%) religious.
A quarter (27%) of adult Americans claim that they attend church once a week or more often, compared with 36% who say they attend less than once a year or never (18% each).
A Note on the Methodology Used and How It Affects the Results
Other research has shown that when replying to a question administered impersonally by a computer, people are less likely to say they believe in God, or attend Church services when they really don’t. It is generally believed that surveys conducted by live interviewers tend to exaggerate the numbers of people who report the socially desirable, or less embarrassing, behavior, and that the replies given to an online survey such as this, are more honest and therefore more accurate.
Methodology
This Harris Poll® was conducted online within the United States between November 10 and 17, 2008 among 2,126 adults (aged 18 and over). Figures for age, sex, race/ethnicity, education, region and household income were weighted where necessary to bring them into line with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online.
All sample surveys and polls, whether or not they use probability sampling, are subject to multiple sources of error which are most often not possible to quantify or estimate, including sampling error, coverage error, error associated with nonresponse, error associated with question wording and response options, and post-survey weighting and adjustments. Therefore, Harris Interactive avoids the words "margin of error" as they are misleading. All that can be calculated are different possible sampling errors with different probabilities for pure, unweighted, random samples with 100% response rates. These are only theoretical because no published polls come close to this ideal.
Respondents for this survey were selected from among those who have agreed to participate in Harris Interactive surveys. The data have been weighted to reflect the composition of the adult population. Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated.
These statements conform to the principles of disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls.
Yeah, it's to bad people are taught inaccuracies. Hopefully they will come around and see what the Bible really teaches.:'(
GC/DEA_AGENT
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Einstein`s 1954 letter:
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/05/17/science/einstein600.jpg)
Einstein, as he says in his autobiographical notes, lost his religion at the age of 12, concluding that it was all a lie, and he never looked back.
Too bad for him, however, the Bible says he will get second chance. ;) :)
GC/DEA_AGENT
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Yeah, it's funny how that bullshit works. You can be a great human being, but hey, you're going to hell if you don't believe.
Who defines a "great" human being?
Again, I don't believe in boogie men who will reward me with 72 virgins or heaven or everlasting life, or whatever those religions preach.
Let me put it to you this way....for the sake of argument, let's pretend god is real. I go thru life, doing everything in my power to be the best human being, and loving my fellow humans. If that is not enough for me to get into "heaven" then fuck it, I wouldn't want to be there with such a "god" anyways. I've known some pieces of shit, who "believed", and by that theory they are awaiting heaven and all its glory.
Makes no sense to me....
That "theory" is hardly validated in Scripture. In fact, it is smashed to bits, in 1 John 2:4, He who says "I know Him(the "Him, being Jesus Christ) and keepeth not the commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him.
Furthermore, you don't earn eternal life; hence, the reason it's called a GIFT. And your scenario of "doing everything in your power to be the best human being....." is one that Jesus addressed in the parable of the unmerciful servant. This guys was forgiven of a massive debt, that he had no chance in hell of paying back (his family, generations down the line, couldn't have done that). Yet, he didn't forgive his friend who owed him 100 denarii (roughly $18-$20) and had him thrown in debtors' prison. When the master learned of this, he was ENRAGED and threw that unmerciful servant in jail.
The point: When you are "doing everything in your power to be good.......", you are showing kindness and mercy to your fellow man. God expects that, based on the kindness and mercy He has shown to you. Jesus even mentioned this after the verses that make up the famous "Lord's Prayer". He stated that if we forgive people of their sins; He will forgive us. But, if we don't forgive; our Heavenly father will not forgive us.
BTW, for those of you who "believe"....how the hell do you know your religion is the right one, and your "god" is the one to follow?
Speaking for myself, I know from personal experience, historical research, and faith.
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mother teresa did some terrible stuff... not hitler level but she was no saint... christopher hitchens has some good work on this.
I wonder if it compares to Manasseh, he was one of the wickedest kings in Judah? Also, the Japanesse were not to kind to Korean women and children, even Hitler shook his head at them.
GC/DEA_AGENT
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Let me put it to you this way....for the sake of argument, let's pretend god is real. I go thru life, doing everything in my power to be the best human being, and loving my fellow humans. If that is not enough for me to get into "heaven" then o well, I wouldn't want to be there with such a "god" anyways.
There is a lot of false teachings about the Bible. I don't blame people for having this opinion. Maybe if you looked into what the Bible really teaches, it could help your viewpoint. :)
BTW, for those of you who "believe"....how the hell do you know your religion is the right one, and your "god" is the one to follow?
It has to conform to the teachings of the Bible. One of the most important things that Jesus said regarding the "true religion" was this: "By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.” (John 13:35).
There is so much more on how to identify the "true religion". If you would like I can PM you the rest. :)
GC/DEA_AGENT