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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Dr Loomis on December 15, 2008, 08:04:55 AM
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Is that possible? What would happen if it occurred?
If not, why isn't it?
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all hell would break loose
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all hell would break loose
But Satan was god's favorite. If life is to be lived, why can't there be reconciliation in the heavens?
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Lol, they are probably having a blast fucking with people's minds.
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Lol, they are probably having a blast fucking with people's minds.
lol that made me laugh
How can Satan run loose? Does he run loose? If not then why doesnt God control him more? Does he control him? Wouldn't that mean God is in charge of sin then? If he is, why doesnt he eliminate it? Can he eliminate it? If not then how is he all powerful? How can Satan deny God in the first place? Doesn't God create angels? How can an angel be against God? Did God create Satan to be against him? If so, why? Arn't angels perfect?
???
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But Satan was god's favorite. If life is to be lived, why can't there be reconciliation in the heavens?
According to the bible, reconciliation between God and Satan will not occur. At least up to the point we can read through Revelation.
(my beliefs/feelings in red)
How can Satan run loose? God "gave" him the world before Satan fell....He has not yet taken away that power.
Does he run loose? If not then why doesnt God control him more? Does he control him?Satan runs pretty loose I think. Maybe God does control him a lot though. Maybe things would be much, much worse. Yes, God does control him but he still allows him to do certain things.
Wouldn't that mean God is in charge of sin then? Yes, ultimately.If he is, why doesnt he eliminate it? He will. But as for now he is still allowing it. Can he eliminate it? YesIf not then how is he all powerful? How can Satan deny God in the first place? PrideDoesn't God create angels? YesHow can an angel be against God? Pride.Did God create Satan to be against him? I don't think so.If so, why? Arn't angels perfect? No.
???
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According to the bible, reconciliation between God and Satan will not occur. At least up to the point we can read through Revelation.
That's correct, but why do you feel you're in control of your life and make your own decisions if everything is already written?
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for the same reason cobra commander will never reconcile with G.I. joe,without each other there out of a job.
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That's correct, but why do you feel you're in control of your life and make your own decisions if everything is already written?
I wouldn't say I am in ultimate control of my life but I do believe I have free will.
My whole life specifically is not written in the bible so I wouldn't say that everything about it is already written.
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lol that made me laugh
How can Satan run loose? Does he run loose? If not then why doesnt God control him more? Does he control him? Wouldn't that mean God is in charge of sin then? If he is, why doesnt he eliminate it? Can he eliminate it? If not then how is he all powerful? How can Satan deny God in the first place? Doesn't God create angels? How can an angel be against God? Did God create Satan to be against him? If so, why? Arn't angels perfect?
???
Satan is needed. Without an Example of Evil, there is no reason to be good. Without an example of Good, all would be evil. Can you picture life without Evil? Everybody sing that Lala song like Smurfette. Ugh!! Life would be boring. And can you imagine life With nO Good? Civilization would not have gotten that far, in fact there might not be a human race.
So in fact, there is a Collusion between the two entities, each one needs the other...The Ultimate Ying-Yang.
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Stephen Lynch is one funny dude!! :D
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lol that made me laugh
How can Satan run loose? Does he run loose? If not then why doesnt God control him more? Does he control him? Wouldn't that mean God is in charge of sin then? If he is, why doesnt he eliminate it? Can he eliminate it? If not then how is he all powerful? How can Satan deny God in the first place? Doesn't God create angels? How can an angel be against God? Did God create Satan to be against him? If so, why? Arn't angels perfect?
???
I would think because of free will?...Seems like if God created intellegent beings that can make choices, then they would have to have free will to do so...Otherwise, they would be robots...just throwing this out there...
GC
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The whole story of God vs Satan makes no sense.
1.If God were indeed all powerful, then he could destroy Satan forever or at least make him impotent and powerless. This way Satan would have no influence on people, less would go to hell, and thus less suffering. People could still do what they wanted, but would simply be influenced less by Satan and thus less prone to doing what Satan wants them to do.
2. What's the point of Hell being about torture? God sent Satan to hell to suffer, yet still allows him to have all sorts of powers of influences over humanity? Makes no sense. Why is hell even about suffering and torture? Why would an omnipotent/all knowing/ all moral God have an aptitude for revenge or retribution or even punishment? Why not simply separate the people who don't want to be with him from the people that do, without subjecting the people who don't want to be with him to eternal torture and suffering in fire and brimstone?? ::)
3. Why is Satan the bad guy and God the good guy? It seems to me like it should be in reverse. Calculate all of the people that God killed in the Bible and those that Satan Killed.
God killed: Millions and Millions and Millions.
Satan killed: something like 13 or 14 people in Job...But only because God (being his arrogant and prideful self) made a bet with Satan.
So what's the deal here? God made humans because he was prideful and wanted to be worshiped, he reigned with an iron fist and destroyed anyone who disagreed with him or challenged him. Lucifer (Satan) decided that he didn't like God having all of the power and thought he should have some as well, and so he attempted a Coup d'état, but God defeated him and threw him down to hell to suffer. Lucifer simply didn't believe in God having all of the power, yet Lucifer is the bad guy?
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The whole story of God vs Satan makes no sense.
I have to agree because of the misconception or rather flat false teachings of the Bible...However, from my studies, it makes sense if the truth is being relayed from the Bible.
1.If God were indeed all powerful, then he could destroy Satan forever or at least make him impotent and powerless. This way Satan would have no influence on people, less would go to hell, and thus less suffering. People could still do what they wanted, but would simply be influenced less by Satan and thus less prone to doing what Satan wants them to do.
It would be a bliss if the good for nothing devil wouldn't exist at present!...The scriptures do tell of his upcoming death/destruction tho...At Genesis 3:15, God did give the first prophecy regarding the destruction of Satan...Also, Satan was cast out of heaven years ago (Revelation 12:7-9) to earth along with his demons. This restricted them from being able to go to and fro from earth to heaven. So, according to the Bible we have to put up with him and his demons. Explains a lot of the evil that occurs on this planet now, and as to why it has escalated. Right now, satan and the demons have free will just like we do. So, the influence that satan and the demons have is temporary. Important to note that it is influence that they have. They cannot make us choose what they want us to do. The Bible does guarantee his and the demons destruction, you can count on that.
2. What's the point of Hell being about torture? God sent Satan to hell to suffer, yet still allows him to have all sorts of powers of influences over humanity? Makes no sense. Why is hell even about suffering and torture? Why would an omnipotent/all knowing/ all moral God have an aptitude for revenge or retribution or even punishment?
Well from what I can tell, the Bible doesn't teach that God will torture people. He merely will destroy them. I agree, if God were to torture people for eternity, that wouldn't be so loving. God even says He wishes no one to be destroyed.However, He does have high standards that are expected for his creatures to follow. So, thru disobedience death occurs. I would hate to live in a world that didn't have laws or principles to live by. It would be utter chaos.
Why not simply separate the people who don't want to be with him from the people that do, without subjecting the people who don't want to be with him to eternal torture and suffering in fire and brimstone?? ::)
This is exactly what is going on now. The Bible teaches that a separation of the sheep from the goats would occur in the last days. And no worries as to suffering eternal torture...The bible doesn't teach that...Jesus said that these goats along with the devil and the demons would be destroyed, not tortured forever. Remember what Genesis stated as to what Adam and Eve could do and not do?...Genesis 2:15-17 recorded God's instructions to Adam and Eve there. Notice that Adam and Eve were not told that if they disobeyed they would be punished by eternal torture...It simply states that they would die. It would have been very unloving for God to have led them to believe that only death would occur yet an eternal punishment in a burning fire was the reality. Take one of my children for ex. If I were to give him some rules to abide by and tell him that a certain punishment would be given if he broke those rules, then by all means I should stick to what I vowed as a loving father. It would be utter evil for me to give that child a complete different punishment if he broke that rule. Especially if it involved torturing the child for ever...A loving father would not do that.
3. Why is Satan the bad guy and God the good guy? It seems to me like it should be in reverse. Calculate all of the people that God killed in the Bible and those that Satan Killed.
I see where that would be detrimental to God's personality...However, from what I'm reading in the Bible, it is saying that the devil is responsible for way way more deaths than God. Not only that, but those deaths initiated by the devil were innocent people. whereas, deaths by God were just. Here are a few scriptures on this. They refer to who is in power of the world, which is the devil, not God:
2 Cor. 4:4
1 John 5:19
Ephesians 2:2
Rev. 12:9
John 14:30
This is one of the many deceits that the devil has used over the centuries to mislead people into believing that God is responsible for all of these deaths. He's not, it's the devil who is behind it.
But only because God (being his arrogant and prideful self) made a bet with Satan.
Honestly, I read it the other way around...It was the devil whom approached God as to whether Job would remain faithful under test. (Job 1:6,7)...It was the devils arrogance and pride that brought this account up. God, granted the devil the right to put Job thru a battery of evils. One thing was limited tho, and that was that the devil could not take Job's life. Anyway, Job proved faithful in that story.
So what's the deal here? God made humans because he was prideful and wanted to be worshiped, he reigned with an iron fist and destroyed anyone who disagreed with him or challenged him. Lucifer (Satan) decided that he didn't like God having all of the power and thought he should have some as well, and so he attempted a Coup d'état, but God
defeated him and threw him down to hell to suffer. Lucifer simply didn't believe in God having all of the power, yet
Not quite, I've covered most of this in the above post...Just like to add, that "lucifer" is not found in the Bible as the personal name of the devil. He is merely referred to as devil/satan. Mans original purpose was really simply and a wonderful prospect of peace and harmony with all of God's creation...Genesis 2:28-30
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Say goodbye to ever masterbating again.
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It would be a bliss if the good for nothing devil wouldn't exist at present!...The scriptures do tell of his upcoming death/destruction tho...At Genesis 3:15, God did give the first prophecy regarding the destruction of Satan...Also, Satan was cast out of heaven years ago (Revelation 12:7-9) to earth along with his demons. This restricted them from being able to go to and fro from earth to heaven. So, according to the Bible we have to put up with him and his demons. Explains a lot of the evil that occurs on this planet now, and as to why it has escalated. Right now, satan and the demons have free will just like we do. So, the influence that satan and the demons have is temporary. Important to note that it is influence that they have. They cannot make us choose what they want us to do. The Bible does guarantee his and the demons destruction, you can count on that.
Yea, none of this really answers my question.
Well from what I can tell, the Bible doesn't teach that God will torture people. He merely will destroy them. I agree, if God were to torture people for eternity, that wouldn't be so loving. God even says He wishes no one to be destroyed.However, He does have high standards that are expected for his creatures to follow. So, thru disobedience death occurs. I would hate to live in a world that didn't have laws or principles to live by. It would be utter chaos.
The Bible says that sinners will suffer eternal torment in hell doesn't it?
Even "destruction". What kind of moral being destroys people who don't accept him or worship him? This seems...Evil.
This is exactly what is going on now. The Bible teaches that a separation of the sheep from the goats would occur in the last days. And no worries as to suffering eternal torture...The bible doesn't teach that...Jesus said that these goats along with the devil and the demons would be destroyed, not tortured forever. Remember what Genesis stated as to what Adam and Eve could do and not do?...Genesis 2:15-17 recorded God's instructions to Adam and Eve there. Notice that Adam and Eve were not told that if they disobeyed they would be punished by eternal torture...It simply states that they would die. It would have been very unloving for God to have led them to believe that only death would occur yet an eternal punishment in a burning fire was the reality. Take one of my children for ex. If I were to give him some rules to abide by and tell him that a certain punishment would be given if he broke those rules, then by all means I should stick to what I vowed as a loving father. It would be utter evil for me to give that child a complete different punishment if he broke that rule. Especially if it involved torturing the child for ever...A loving father would not do that.
Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
I see where that would be detrimental to God's personality...However, from what I'm reading in the Bible, it is saying that the devil is responsible for way way more deaths than God. Not only that, but those deaths initiated by the devil were innocent people. whereas, deaths by God were just. Here are a few scriptures on this. They refer to who is in power of the world, which is the devil, not God:
2 Cor. 4:4
1 John 5:19
Ephesians 2:2
Rev. 12:9
John 14:30
None of those are examples of Satan killing people. The dozen or so people that Satan did kill were perhaps innocent, but are you SERIOUSLY claiming that all of the babies and children killed during the great flood of Noah were not innocent? Or perhaps the children in Sodom and Gomorrah? Surely there must have also been innocent adults among them as well, not even to mention the innocent animals that suffered and died according to the story (everyone forgets the animals).
This is one of the many deceits that the devil has used over the centuries to mislead people into believing that God is responsible for all of these deaths. He's not, it's the devil who is behind it.
So Lucifer flooded the world, killing millions and millions of people?
Lucifer ordered the Jews to rape and pillage town after town?
Lucifer destroyed cities with fire and brimstone?
Lucifer blackmailed humanity into worshiping him with the threat of hell if they refused?
Lucifer sadistically tested his worshipers with childish games and evil tricks?
No.
Honestly, I read it the other way around...It was the devil whom approached God as to whether Job would remain faithful under test. (Job 1:6,7)...It was the devils arrogance and pride that brought this account up. God, granted the devil the right to put Job thru a battery of evils. One thing was limited tho, and that was that the devil could not take Job's life. Anyway, Job proved faithful in that story.
Why would an omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing all moral God get into a childish bet with Lucifer? It makes no sense. Why would an almighty creator of the universe need to prove himself to Lucifer in a bet? Why do such a thing? Moreover, God being all powerful, could EASILY have proven Lucifer wrong without resorting to some bet or allowing Lucifer to take lives or cause Job suffering and years of misery. God could have just said "let it be that Lucifer sees that Job will remain faithful" without ever actually going through the trials and torture for Job. So it makes no sense, and only shows how it was in fact totally fabricated by a human with a human perspective.
Not quite, I've covered most of this in the above post...Just like to add, that "lucifer" is not found in the Bible as the personal name of the devil. He is merely referred to as devil/satan. Mans original purpose was really simply and a wonderful prospect of peace and harmony with all of God's creation...Genesis 2:28-30
Lucifer means "morning star" and is the Latin form of the name given to Satan. Lucifer meaning "bringer of light".
Man's original purpose was a prospect of peace and harmony with all God's creation? This sentence doesn't even make sense. Humans are anything BUT harmonious with the rest of nature, and it seems pointless for an omnipotent all knowing all present being to do ANYTHING, let alone make a race of creatures to worship him. Omnipotent/Omniscient/Omnipresent beings don't have desires or emotions or anything like this (logically, if they existed, but they don't). An omnipotent being could see any and all circumstances and possible events, and thus this would negate the need of actually doing anything, since the being would already know the outcome.
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Yea, none of this really answers my question.
The Bible says that sinners will suffer eternal torment in hell doesn't it?
Even "destruction". What kind of moral being destroys people who don't accept him or worship him? This seems...Evil.
Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
None of those are examples of Satan killing people. The dozen or so people that Satan did kill were perhaps innocent, but are you SERIOUSLY claiming that all of the babies and children killed during the great flood of Noah were not innocent? Or perhaps the children in Sodom and Gomorrah? Surely there must have also been innocent adults among them as well, not even to mention the innocent animals that suffered and died according to the story (everyone forgets the animals).
So Lucifer flooded the world, killing millions and millions of people?
Lucifer ordered the Jews to rape and pillage town after town?
Lucifer destroyed cities with fire and brimstone?
Lucifer blackmailed humanity into worshiping him with the threat of hell if they refused?
Lucifer sadistically tested his worshipers with childish games and evil tricks?
No.
Why would an omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing all moral God get into a childish bet with Lucifer? It makes no sense. Why would an almighty creator of the universe need to prove himself to Lucifer in a bet? Why do such a thing? Moreover, God being all powerful, could EASILY have proven Lucifer wrong without resorting to some bet or allowing Lucifer to take lives or cause Job suffering and years of misery. God could have just said "let it be that Lucifer sees that Job will remain faithful" without ever actually going through the trials and torture for Job. So it makes no sense, and only shows how it was in fact totally fabricated by a human with a human perspective.
Lucifer means "morning star" and is the Latin form of the name given to Satan. Lucifer meaning "bringer of light".
Man's original purpose was a prospect of peace and harmony with all God's creation? This sentence doesn't even make sense. Humans are anything BUT harmonious with the rest of nature, and it seems pointless for an omnipotent all knowing all present being to do ANYTHING, let alone make a race of creatures to worship him. Omnipotent/Omniscient/Omnipresent beings don't have desires or emotions or anything like this (logically, if they existed, but they don't). An omnipotent being could see any and all circumstances and possible events, and thus this would negate the need of actually doing anything, since the being would already know the outcome.
Liberalismo,
Before I answer these questions and or respond to your admonitions, I wanted to make sure that I'm understanding your position regarding the existence of God and satan.
I'm not sure if you believe in the two. Do you?. Or perhaps you only believe in satan's existence and not God's. What is your take on this?. I really don't want to go any further if you don't believe in their existence. It would only waste my time and yours. Instead, it would be a better conversation and more productive if we were to establish first the Bible's validity and then the existence of God and satan.
GC
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Liberalismo,
Before I answer these questions and or respond to your admonitions, I wanted to make sure that I'm understanding your position regarding the existence of God and satan.
I'm not sure if you believe in the two. Do you?. Or perhaps you only believe in satan's existence and not God's. What is your take on this?. I really don't want to go any further if you don't believe in their existence. It would only waste my time and yours. Instead, it would be a better conversation and more productive if we were to establish first the Bible's validity and then the existence of God and satan.
GC
It's highly unlikely that God or Satan exist. Almost absolutely they do not.
I think that we do not need to establish the validity of the bible before discussing its contradictions absurdity. We can discuss them in and of themselves, and in and of themselves they dispute the idea that the bible is valid let alone the "word of God".
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It's highly unlikely that God or Satan exist. Almost absolutely they do not.
Well, as least you have doubt. Maybe I can help.
I think that we do not need to establish the validity of the bible before discussing its contradictions absurdity. We can discuss them in and of themselves, and in and of themselves they dispute the idea that the bible is valid let alone the "word of God".
It seems like a reasonable thinking person would except evidence on the contrary. You do sound like a reasonable person. I haven't been able to find these contradictions that people always speak of. Hopefully we will be able to examine this evidence.
GC
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Well, as least you have doubt. Maybe I can help.
It seems like a reasonable thinking person would except evidence on the contrary. You do sound like a reasonable person. I haven't been able to find these contradictions that people always speak of. Hopefully we will be able to examine this evidence.
GC
No, No. I've been through this 1000 times with different people. I point out several, or a dozen or a hundred biblical contradictions. They go through a few and avoid my points or make false claims, I rebut, they respond. This goes on for a few pages until they disappear or keep repeating the same things that I already refuted. It gets tiring.
If you really want to see where the biblical contradictions are (or at least where people claim they are) then google it. If you disagree with them, come up with arguments against them and then google rebuttals to your own arguments against them. And keep doing this. If, at the end, you still believe that there are no contradictions, then we can have a discussion on perhaps 1 big contradiction that I can pick out and that you're totally versed on and educated of.
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No, No. I've been through this 1000 times with different people. I point out several, or a dozen or a hundred biblical contradictions. They go through a few and avoid my points or make false claims, I rebut, they respond. This goes on for a few pages until they disappear or keep repeating the same things that I already refuted. It gets tiring.
If you really want to see where the biblical contradictions are (or at least where people claim they are) then google it. If you disagree with them, come up with arguments against them and then google rebuttals to your own arguments against them. And keep doing this. If, at the end, you still believe that there are no contradictions, then we can have a discussion on perhaps 1 big contradiction that I can pick out and that you're totally versed on and educated of.
This seems familiar..... I don't disagree about those obvious contradictions in the bible, however, it's a simple matter of HUMAN error. God is infallible, we are not and God may or may not have been motivating the writing of the bible but he certainly didn't put pen to paper nor did he later translate it no less than 50 times.
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This seems familiar..... I don't disagree about those obvious contradictions in the bible, however, it's a simple matter of HUMAN error. God is infallible, we are not and God may or may not have been motivating the writing of the bible but he certainly didn't put pen to paper nor did he later translate it no less than 50 times.
If God exists (which I believe he does not) the bible has NOTHING to do with him.
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If God exists (which I believe he does not) the bible has NOTHING to do with him.
Agreed, but if a person believes that becoming a more spiritually deep person is important than reading the bible is a good road map. That being said, so is every other spiritually enlightening book re. The Bible, al Qur'an, The Analects, Tao te ching, Upanishads, Veda and finally Arnolds Encyclopedia Of Modern Bodybuilding. ;D
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Is that possible? What would happen if it occurred?
If not, why isn't it?
No, not according to the Bible. The reason being, is satan committed the unforgivable sin. Satan deliberately rebelled against God, he had no excuse for his action. Also among the sins that God undoubtedly did not forgive were those of Adam and Eve. As a test of their appreciation God gave them a simple command; they were not to eat of the fruit of a certain tree; and he warned them of the consequences if they did eat of it. They were created perfect in mind and in body. They willfully and deliberately disobeyed. They could neither plead ignorance, as later the apostle Paul was able to do, nor claim inherited imperfection and the tendency to sin, as King David was able to do. So what basis was there for forgiving Adam, Eve and satan's sins? Absolutely none!. Hope this helps.
GC
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Thankfully Adam and Eve ate the apple if it weren't for that sin we wouldn't exist......
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Is that possible? What would happen if it occurred?
If not, why isn't it?
The reply would be...."Thanks for stopping by"!! :-X
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Thankfully Adam and Eve ate the apple if it weren't for that sin we wouldn't exist......
I hope you being sarcastic.
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Thankfully Adam and Eve ate the apple if it weren't for that sin we wouldn't exist......
Why's that?
What gets me is Adam. Why in the world did he listen to Eve?. Can anyone shed light on that?
GC/DEA_AGENT
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I hope you being sarcastic.
Wellllllll had they not sinned they would have never been punished and Eve wouldn't have been given the gift of childbirth therefore she wouldn't have given birth to our race..... that is if you take the bible literally which I do not, so yes sarcasm.
Now those who do believe in the literal translation, well they should be thankful for Adam and Eve's original sin.
I believe the point of that story to be that man will always sin even given perfection, I also believe God being infallible knew this and gave us the ability to choose salvation or not for our sins. If God is infallible then he had to have known what his own creation would do, right?
So given that information does there have to be an actual Adam or Eve, or might that just be an easy story to tell for those in charge of spreading the message of the one god in informing an illiterate, war-like and very poetic race of people like those of the ancient world? I don't believe that the details of any bible verse are the points of their story, I believe the message of the story is the point. People have always wasted way too much time arguing over details......
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Wellllllll had they not sinned they would have never been punished and Eve wouldn't have been given the gift of childbirth therefore she wouldn't have given birth to our race..... that is if you take the bible literally which I do not, so yes sarcasm.
Now those who do believe in the literal translation, well they should be thankful for Adam and Eve's original sin.
I believe the point of that story to be that man will always sin even given perfection, I also believe God being infallible knew this and gave us the ability to choose salvation or not for our sins. If God is infallible then he had to have known what his own creation would do, right?
So given that information does there have to be an actual Adam or Eve, or might that just be an easy story to tell for those in charge of spreading the message of the one god in informing an illiterate, war-like and very poetic race of people like those of the ancient world? I don't believe that the details of any bible verse are the points of their story, I believe the message of the story is the point. People have always wasted way too much time arguing over details......
OK I gotcha.just making sure you didn't really believe women was created from a mans rib.
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Now those who do believe in the literal translation, well they should be thankful for Adam and Eve's original sin. If God is infallible then he had to have known what his own creation would do, right?
We're not tho. If Adam and Eve would not have sinned, mankind would not be in the mess we're in now. God chooses not to abuse His powers. Therefore, we are allowed to exercise free will. We would be robots if God looked into the future/predestined our every move, right?. This would not be a fair, righteous, just thing to do. So, we can see, that God 'chooses' when,where,how,why, etc to exercise His powers.
OK I gotcha.just making sure you didn't really believe women was created from a mans rib.
What's your take on man having that one less rib?. Has science been able to figure it out yet?. ;)
GC/DEA_AGENT
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We're not tho. If Adam and Eve would not have sinned, mankind would not be in the mess we're in now. God chooses not to abuse His powers. Therefore, we are allowed to exercise free will. We would be robots if God looked into the future/predestined our every move, right?. This would not be a fair, righteous, just thing to do. So, we can see, that God 'chooses' when,where,how,why, etc to exercise His powers.
What's your take on man having that one less rib?. Has science been able to figure it out yet?. ;)
GC/DEA_AGENT
LMAO they don't!!!!! Men and women both have 12 sets of ribs my friend, sorry man but this is the kind of ignorance which gives us Christians a bad rap........
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LMAO they don't!!!!! Men and women both have 12 sets of ribs my friend, sorry man but this is the kind of ignorance which gives us Christians a bad rap........
Not ignorance my friend. Let me explain. The Bible says: “God had a deep sleep fall upon the man and, while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. And God proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man.” (Gen. 2:21, 22).
Some persons have wondered whether this meant that Adam was short a rib, thus being incomplete. No, it does not mean necessarily that Adam lived his life with one less rib than he had when he was created by God. The rib bones, unlike others, can replace themselves. Here's how we know. University of Berne, Professor K. Lenggenhager commented in this connection, saying: “I can inform you that a rib, that has been removed, but whose periosteum has been left, forms itself again [or grows again]. If, however, the periosteum is removed along with the rib, the bone then does not renew itself. Usually, when ribs are removed in surgery, the periosteum is preserved, except in the case of malignant rib tumor.”
I was hoping someone would point this out, without jumping to conclusions. I kindah loaded that one, you bit. ;D
GC/DEA_AGENT
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What's your take on man having that one less rib?. Has science been able to figure it out yet?. ;)
GC/DEA_AGENT
Your quote indicates that you thought man had one less rib and that science hadn't figured it out yet??? nice cover :) jk
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Thank God Penn and Teller were able to debunk the Bible, I feel so much better now!! ::)
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Your quote indicates that you thought man had one less rib and that science hadn't figured it out yet??? nice cover :) jk
I believe the first man (Adam) did have one less rib, just as the scriptures indicate. However, we really don't know if that rib grew back or not. No one can say for sure. So, science technically hasn't figured it out, eh?. But, we can draw a reasonable conclusion as to what happened when God took that rib from Adam based on the quote I posted. Most likely, after living close to a millenium, Adam would have grew it back. Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to see what peoples reaction to that would be. I didn't mean to post that in a negative way, so please forgive me if I came across as so.
I've been studying the Bible for around 17 years now, non-stop. So, I really have been thru the ringer so to speak when it comes to contradictions, critics, and just plain out haters of it. I like to try and have reasonable discussions, rather than, argumentive, destructive and debauched dialogue on it. Again, I do apologize if I came off as tricking, deceiving, etc.
GC/DEA_AGENT
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Thank God Penn and Teller were able to debunk the Bible, I feel so much better now!! ::)
yea because your opinion is so much more valid than theres.they have done years of extensive research on religion and know the bible better than most Christians.what do you do besides run your dick suckers?your avatar slogan says it all,as everyone knows Conservatives get caught fuckin boys.liberals get caught fuckin chicks.
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yea because your opinion is so much more valid than theres.they have done years of extensive research on religion and know the bible better than most Christians.what do you do besides run your dick suckers?your avatar slogan says it all,as everyone knows Conservatives get caught fuckin boys.liberals get caught fuckin chicks.
Awww man Im sorry I hurt your feelings!
BTW Penn and Teller said your a flaming homo, they have years of experience on the subject.
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Awww man Im sorry I hurt your feelings!
BTW Penn and Teller said your a flaming homo, they have years of experience on the subject.
ha ha.no feelings hurt.but instead of doing an eye roll to something.try having an intelligent response and refute the things they say in the video.oh wait this is getbig.intelligent responses are rare.just roll your eyes and call someone a homo.that seems to work best.
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ha ha.no feelings hurt.but instead of doing an eye roll to something.try having an intelligent response and refute the things they say in the video.oh wait this is getbig.intelligent responses are rare.just roll your eyes and call someone a homo.that seems to work best.
big L dawg, have you read the accounts of creation in Genesis 1 and 2? Your boy in the video has a problem w/them saying they contradict each other. Do you agree? And if so, can you please explain why? Thanks!
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big L dawg, have you read the accounts of creation in Genesis 1 and 2? Your boy in the video has a problem w/them saying they contradict each other. Do you agree? And if so, can you please explain why? Thanks!
I haven't read Genesis since bible school...which was some years back ha ha.but if your referring to the Adam and eve story.he's saying they were made together and in another chapter Adam first eve later.It's an old story lifted from earlier religions just the same as Noah's ark.It's funny you would ask about that of all things though.what about the last 2 min of the vid.say from about 8.10 to the end.how do you feel about those things.
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this is the only Genesis I believe in :)
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I haven't read Genesis since bible school...which was some years back ha ha.but if your referring to the Adam and eve story.he's saying they were made together and in another chapter Adam first eve later.It's an old story lifted from earlier religions just the same as Noah's ark.It's funny you would ask about that of all things though.what about the last 2 min of the vid.say from about 8.10 to the end.how do you feel about those things.
I didn't watch the whole video..I will go do that in a minute.
Regarding the 2 Genesis accounts, imo they do not contradict each other at all. One just gives more detailed information regarding the creation of man and woman.
Here they are....do you think they do contradict each other?
Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
Genesis 2
Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah) it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20). from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [e] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. [f] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [g] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [h] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [j] '
for she was taken out of man."
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
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.what about the last 2 min of the vid.say from about 8.10 to the end.how do you feel about those things.
In part of that section they were referring to Mosaic Law.
Also, I find it pretty funny that they try to make a point by reading the scripture on men having long hair and then showing a picture of a painting "depicting" Jesus as if they think they proved a contradiction. ;D
this is the only Genesis I believe in :)
Yes, a good tune there!
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It seems like they say he created man and woman in genesis 1.which seems to imply at the same time.were in Genesis 2 it seems at separate times...you must understand though I don't prefere to nit pick at little things here or there in the bible.Just for the simple fact I don't believe the story in the first place.So once the main Idea of the story is dismissed why dwell on the small details.thats why you won't see me writing small novels like ozmo and mcway.
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It seems like they say he created man and woman in genesis 1.which seems to imply at the same time.were in Genesis 2 it seems at separate times...you must understand though I don't prefere to nit pick at little things here or there in the bible.Just for the simple fact I don't believe the story in the first place.So once the main Idea of the story is dismissed why dwell on the small details.thats why you won't see me writing small novels like ozmo and mcway.
I don't see it as a contradiction.
I can understand your position in not wanting to research the bible further since you seem to reject it in the first place. But you probably can see other's points in wanting to research (and probably dispute) claims that we see as false regarding the bible.
For me, being presented w/a claimed apparent contradiction in the bible, I want to investigate it to see if I agree or disagree w/the claim since I do believe the bible holds truth and I believe in the God of the bible.
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I can understand your position in not wanting to research the bible further since you seem to reject it in the first place. But you probably can see other's points in wanting to research (and probably dispute) claims that we see as false regarding the bible.
For me, being presented w/a claimed apparent contradiction in the bible, I want to investigate it to see if I agree or disagree w/the claim since I do believe the bible holds truth and I believe in the God of the bible.
I agree...but you must understand I did not always reject the bible.the research I have done has caused me to reject it.If you study religions that pre date Christianity instead of just the bible or your own personal religion It becomes easy to see threw the bullshit that is organized religion.Also If you study astrology you see were alot of these religious dates and beliefs come from.the Christian religion is just a parody of the people prior to Christianity that worshiped the sun.they just eventually switched the sun into the son.