Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => History - Stories - and Memories => Topic started by: Figo on December 15, 2008, 09:54:21 AM
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Originally posted on IA, it seems a few undies got tangled up, and the thread locked. My comments may have contributed...
Since we are in a more liberal discussion environment, whats your take?
http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php/topic,19480.0.html (http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php/topic,19480.0.html)
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Originally posted on IA, it seems a few undies got tangled up, and the thread locked. My comments may have contributed...
Since we are in a more liberal discussion environment, whats your take?
I find Iron Age and their overly-serious attitudes to be obnoxious. Especially since Perine the guy who runs it is a Weider "writer". Writer's are supposed to be the last people to exercise control over free speech yet it's the standard over there.
I realize that they're too important to care, but the fact is they lose alot of good people who would contribute to the site because of their unfriendly approach to free speech.
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Its a joke, actually. If you dont share their take and view, they censor you.
Lets be realistic here, the guys back in the day were just regular people/bbers, they were just as messed up/obsessed as todays guys, did whatever it took to progress, took rec drugs, etc. This wonderland holier than thou attitude...
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Is the question did he ever take AAS or what would he have been like versus Arnold if he did? I think it's a pretty big assumption he never tried the former at some point in his long career.
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Yes, one is of no fault to think that Reg Park and others prayed to the Dianabol gods at certain points in their career.
There wasn't the same level of stigma attached to the drugs like there is today. If you look at reports from the York Barbell team, and other honest lifters from that era, it wasn't a big deal, just something you did to win. It wasn't until years later that they had regrets.
Just look at the fella, his physique still compares favorably to the pros of the late 60's-early 80's, who were well known to be steroid users.
He carried 50-65 lbs of quality muscle over the true drug-free champs of the pre WWII/steroid era.
Also strength wise, he was almost as strong as most modern IFBB steroid using pros, but we are to believe that it was the result of clean living:)?
If Reg showed up on these modern message boards(including Ironage) claiming natural status, he'd be a laughing stock, but because he is from a nostalgic era we are to ignore the the obvious.
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There wasn't the same level of stigma attached to the drugs like there is today. If you look at reports from the York Barbell team, and other honest lifters from that era, it wasn't a big deal, just something you did to win. It wasn't until years later that they had regrets.
If Reg showed up on these modern message boards(including Ironage) claiming natural status, he'd be a laughing stock, but because he is from a nostalgic era we are to ignore the the obvious.
Your post is spot on what I'm saying.
It wasnt a big deal then at all, it was just another sup, but when it became illegal/immoral, everybody quickly denied use.
Nostalgia is being taken a bit far, to the point of believing in Santa and the easter bunny.
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the standard back then was to admit to trying it for a cycle or two than realizing it was worthless ahem!!!!!!!!!!!! discontinue use ref bill pearl and freddie oritz or deny it's use entirely. to read some of the truth read john fair's book muscletown usa and find out the york gang roided thanks to john ziegler and also did quite a few halluetogenic drugs at york picnics etc..
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Popping pills and ingesting chemicals were a very accepted part of the modern lifestyle from the 50s through the 70s. Even smoking was quite acceptable, health concerns were minimal.
Park it would seem most likely especially considering he was one of the first to get to a 500 lb. bench. Reeves even earlier is still controversial as to whether he partook as is Grimek.
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For those claiming that it was "just another supplement" back in the 50's and 60's, please show me magazine articles that freely advocate the use of AAS as part of a bodybuilding program. I don't believe it was viewed with such an acceptable attitude. If it was, the great champions of the day would have likely admitted their use in print.
In the end, debates will rise no matter what is said. Only a select few may know the truth, and it's doubtful that they will ever divulge the correct information. Let's just agree that Reg Park was a great champion and built a body that stood the test of time.
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For those claiming that it was "just another supplement" back in the 50's and 60's, please show me magazine articles that freely advocate the use of AAS as part of a bodybuilding program. I don't believe it was viewed with such an acceptable attitude. If it was, the great champions of the day would have likely admitted their use in print.
In the end, debates will rise no matter what is said. Only a select few may know the truth, and it's doubtful that they will ever divulge the correct information. Let's just agree that Reg Park was a great champion and built a body that stood the test of time.
Did anybody say otherwise?
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This http://ydr.inyork.com/ydr/sports/ci_4895138 article shows how acceptable they were at the time among lifting/bodybuilding elite.
As to why they weren't openly publicised in the magazines, well my feeling is that much like today, the magazines were/are controlled by the supplement companies. If Bob Hoffman openly said the secret is Dianabol, then he couldn't hawk Protein-by-the-Sea, liver pills, etc..... For most, money will trump honesty.
Most of these fellows didn't become anti-steroid till they had health problems, their records fell, or it became obvious to everyone that this hobby/sport is mostly drug dependant after a certain point.
Reg Park was a great lifter but lets not let our hero worship cloud our vision.
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As to why they weren't openly publicised in the magazines, well my feeling is that much like today, the magazines were/are controlled by the supplement companies. If Bob Hoffman openly said the secret is Dianabol, then he couldn't hawk Protein-by-the-Sea, liver pills, etc..... For most, money will trump honesty.
If Weider had written in his mags about his champs' experiences with, and the efficacy of aas, imagine how megapaks, mega mass and victory sups sales would've dropped... It was all the Weider principles, Weider lifestyle and Weider products!
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Reg Park was a great lifter but lets not let our hero worship cloud our vision.
As I stated in the IA thread, this is not bout Park, it goes as far as Reeves and Grimek, and everyone else. It does not denigrate nor take away, but please take off the rose tinted shades and face up to facts.
Obviously the usual comeback is:
"...the only reason people would accuse these individuals no longer with us, unable to defend themselves is because of their inability to build their own bodies even on aas, and gotta defame the greats..."
Thats b.s. , I just cant stand people believing in bullshit claims and expecting everyone else to go along because they believe wrestling is real (WWE), they believe in Santa Claus, there were WMD's in Iraq...
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From 1945....
This best-selling book had articles written about it in the New York Times,Newsweek and Time Magazine.Excerpt were also published in The Readers Digest.
(http://www.usrf.org/news/TRT/Male%20Hormone,%20deKruif,%201945%20(cover).jpg)
Here is the original 1945 Time Magazine article.:
Virility Prolonged
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,775689-1,00.html
Testosterone is dangerous if improperly administered; it may overstimulate a man sexually, and it cannot be used at all when prostatic cancer is present or dormant. Otherwise it is likely to alleviate any distress or ailment directly or indirectly connected with "male hormone hunger." On young, normal men, oddly, it appears to lower sexual drive(sic) while improving muscle tone and endurance. Its effect is temporary.
Testosterone injections administered under medical supervision,was presented to mainstream public opion as a wonder tonic,which could safely enhance male virility and vigour.It doesn't seem then that the idea of HRT was either thought of as harmful or socially unacceptable.
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From 1945....
This best-selling book had articles written about it in the New York Times,Newsweek and Time Magazine.Excerpt were also published in The Readers Digest.
(http://www.usrf.org/news/TRT/Male%20Hormone,%20deKruif,%201945%20(cover).jpg)
Here is the original 1945 Time Magazine article.:
Virility Prolonged
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,775689-1,00.html
Testosterone injections administered under medical supervision,was presented to mainstream public opion as a wonder tonic,which could safely enhance male virility and vigour.It doesn't seem then that the idea of HRT was either thought of as harmful or socially unacceptable.
Whao!!!..............now thats a REALLY interesting find there bud......Certently throws a few ah.........well subjects up in the air :o :o :o
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Grimek admitted to using/trying dianabol but said he didnt like the way it made him feel. Randy Roach's new book Muscle, Smoke and Mirros has alot of good historical info on this topic.
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Grimek admitted to using/trying dianabol but said he didnt like the way it made him feel. Randy Roach's new book Muscle, Smoke and Mirros has alot of good historical info on this topic.
Grimek! Guys over at IA will go into cardiac arrest if they hear that... Next thing you know, its gona be Reeves...
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Grimek admitted to using/trying dianabol but said he didnt like the way it made him feel. Randy Roach's new book Muscle, Smoke and Mirros has alot of good historical info on this topic.
:D ::)
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:D ::)
He only took it once, 5mg, 2 days before a show. It haunted him to the deathbed...
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He only took it once, 5mg, 2 days before a show. It haunted him to the deathbed...
exactly ..
It shows you how effective the Weider propaganda and lies were. People are in such denial that they almost don't want to believe.
BTW for all nostalgics : Reg Park took everything and as much as he could and also experimented a lot.
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I agree with all of the posts here!!!!! Very good points for sure!!!
I too feel like Ironage was way too censored and if you didn't agree with them, you were chastised...... I decided to stay away from there due to the nonsense. Yes, I think the champs back then did get involved with the gear. Don't tell that to the folks over at Ironage though.
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IA is an ok site to read stories and see old pics etc, but its not fun to discuss or debate as there are not many regular active members and they all agree with each other and pretty much suck each others e penis! the fact that mentioning,asking,discussing steroids is not really allowed there is stupid, those old schmoes worship the BB's who all used steroids, yet they only talk about how it was all down to genetics and hard work, considering that a lot of members there have been around the iron game for so many years i find it stupid ::) perine is an utter schmoe and an idiot!
oh yeah and im sure Park did roids, does'nt matter he will always be a legend
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This http://ydr.inyork.com/ydr/sports/ci_4895138 article shows how acceptable they were at the time among lifting/bodybuilding elite.
As to why they weren't openly publicised in the magazines, well my feeling is that much like today, the magazines were/are controlled by the supplement companies. If Bob Hoffman openly said the secret is Dianabol, then he couldn't hawk Protein-by-the-Sea, liver pills, etc..... For most, money will trump honesty.
Most of these fellows didn't become anti-steroid till they had health problems, their records fell, or it became obvious to everyone that this hobby/sport is mostly drug dependant after a certain point.
Reg Park was a great lifter but lets not let our hero worship cloud our vision.
protein from the sea that was some foul stuff, i much preferred his protein peanut butter bars, just the right mix of peanut butter ,honey, sawdust, sweat, and probably a load or two from old bohof himself. it was said that a shirtless bob hoffman used to come in and mix the stuff with a canoe oar himself in an open vat.
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IA is an ok site to read stories and see old pics etc, but its not fun to discuss or debate as there are not many regular active members and they all agree with each other and pretty much suck each others e penis! the fact that mentioning,asking,discussing steroids is not really allowed there is stupid, those old schmoes worship the BB's who all used steroids, yet they only talk about how it was all down to genetics and hard work, considering that a lot of members there have been around the iron game for so many years i find it stupid ::) perine is an utter schmoe and an idiot!
oh yeah and im sure Park did roids, does'nt matter he will always be a legend
X2.......I agree with your input.....perine and IA was way too serious and they are so biased it isn't even funny......great site though for pics and stories about the old timers and even the 70s and 80s......but overall just too many hypcrites and too many arrogant attitudes and opinions. perine is one of the biggest name droppers ever to walk planet earth.
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i must say........ that i feel mr. park did use the gear....
but that being said.....
he is without a doubt the best representative bodybuilding has ever seen!!!
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He only took it once, 5mg, 2 days before a show. It haunted him to the deathbed...
hell.......you can't see anything off that small a dose and that period of time......kind of a joke......can't believe anyone would make that statement!
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Good articles guys, here's more. Anyone with the opportunity, visit York Barbell in York PA. They have a nice little weightlifting/BB museum and good gym there worth visiting.
A doctor's curiosity and a businessman's love of weightlifting set off a revolution in York
YORK, Pa. – Then, as now, little packs of weary men gathered in downtown York to reminisce. Industrial jobs, like many of their dreams, were headed south. So, on sunny mornings in the early 1960s, they sat on benches, talked away the hours and observed everything.
Increasingly surrounded by empty storefronts, they must have wondered what it was that made Schultz's Drug Store so busy. All day long, it seemed, heavily muscled young men walked in and out of the pharmacy.
The old men, of course, had no way of knowing that the little store and their city, 100 miles west of Philadelphia, was at the nexus of a revolution destined to alter sports forever.
Even if they had been told why these big men – most of them weightlifters from York Barbell's nearby gym – were frequenting Schultz's, it's doubtful that the words anabolic steroids would have meant anything to them.
Few Americans recall that York served as the nation's capital after the Continental Congress fled Philadelphia during the Revolutionary War. Fewer still know of its link to a sordid piece of American history, the origins of the steroid boom in sports.
It was in this aging south-central Pennsylvania town that, more than 40 years ago, American athletes began experimenting with steroids, artificially produced derivatives of the male hormone testosterone that accelerate muscle growth.
The perilous connection started innocently enough, with the determination of a fitness-obsessed Pennsylvania businessman, the ambitions of weightlifters, the curiosity of a Maryland physician, and thousands of tiny pink pills.
It quickly led to results so spectacular that in little more than a decade, the popularity of anabolic steroids had moved far beyond York. They were being widely used, not just by weightlifters, but by track and field athletes, swimmers, and college and professional football players.
A 1972 survey revealed that 68 percent of Olympic competitors admitted using them. Track and Field News naively termed them the "Breakfast of Champions."
"The genie was out of the bottle," said Chuck Yesalis, a professor of sports science at Penn State.
Now, decades later, after a long, dark era in which they clouded the competitive landscape, anabolic steroids are a controlled substance in the United States and banned by most major sports organizations around the world. Yet the positive potential in this muscle-building magic potion continues to blind athletes to its serious health hazards.
"I wish to God I'd never done it," John Ziegler, the Olney, Md., physician who developed them and fed them willingly to York weightlifters, said before his death in 1984. "I'd like to go back and take that whole chapter out of my life."
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Bob Hoffman was a Georgia-born partner in an oil-burner business that had its factory on North Broad Street in York.
A veteran of World War I, he became interested in weight training and threw himself into the pursuit. By 1923, at age 25, Hoffman had invented the barbell. Until then, lifters had used one-weight dumbbells. Barbells – circular weights that could be mounted on a bar – allowed a lifter to set his own burden.
Weightlifting quickly became not only Hoffman's passion but his full-time business. Soon, he had converted his oil-burner shop into a barbell-manufacturing plant, York Barbell Co.
By 1946, York Barbell employed 150 people, and was selling 50,000 barbell sets and grossing $1 million annually. The company published its own magazines, including the widely ready Strength and Health, and sold health and food supplements.
Hoffman was the dominant figure in U.S. weightlifting, coach of the Olympic team, and, through his magazines, the most vocal advocate and salesman for the sport. Lifters from across the nation flocked to York for training, first at the Broad Street facility and later at the firm's new gym, converted from an old Acme supermarket on Ridge Avenue.
Hoffman gave them jobs, in effect personally subsidizing the sport. In 1947, in Philadelphia's Convention Hall, he staged the first world championships. Weightlifters from the United States, which was to say from York Barbell, broke 12 world records.
"From the 1930s through the 1970s, York was Mecca for U.S. and world weightlifters," said John D. Fair, a history professor at Georgia College and State University in Milledgeville, Ga., who has written and researched extensively on Hoffman and weightlifting.
In the years immediately after World War II, Ziegler, a gregarious, 6-foot-4 Gettysburg College graduate, was recuperating from a war wound. His rehabilitation regimen included weightlifting, and he, too, became a fanatic.
Ziegler went on to medical school, where his own experiences led him to specialize in physical rehabilitation. Working out in a gym in Silver Spring, Md., he became acquainted with John Grimek, a York employee and a world-class lifter. Ziegler soon made the pilgrimage to York to meet Hoffman.
The two hit it off and Ziegler became the American weightlifting team's physician. It was in that position that he made the discovery that would change his life – and those of many, many others in the years to come.
At the 1954 world championships in Vienna, Ziegler befriended a physician from the Soviet Union. Drinking in an Austrian beer hall one night, the Soviet doctor admitted that his team had been using a synthetic form of testosterone.
There had been widespread speculation in the lifting world about some sort of medical genie that Nazi scientists had uncovered during the war. There were always magic elixirs being touted, some concoction or training technique that could produce rapid improvement.
Hoffman, for example, sold Hi-Proteen, a powdered drink that he called "our secret weapon."
"It was," Fair said, "symptomatic of a perpetual search for ways to alter the body's chemistry to induce more effective muscular growth."
Returning home and garnering the research assistance of Ciba Pharmaceuticals in Summit, N.J., Ziegler began to hunt for an artificial substance that would mimic testosterone. Ciba supplied him not only with the testosterone, but with records of Nazi research the United States had confiscated after the war.
"He got into this whole thing not for any diabolical reasons, but merely out of a desire to experiment," Fair said. "He began using it with burn victims and the physically disabled. And at some point, he said, 'What if I gave this stuff to athletes?' "
By 1958, he had developed Dianabol, which was the first mass-produced anabolic steroid and the brand name for the chemical compound methandrostenolone. Within a few years, Ziegler was administering it, either through injection or by pill, to lifters on his regular visits to York. He was by then on the company's payroll.
Lifters were amazed at the results – though it took time for them to convince themselves that their increased performance was almost solely due to Ziegler's pills.
"This was a more innocent era," Fair said. "No one could quite believe these pills could make you a superstar almost overnight. They were raised on the Horatio Alger ethic: Hard work, sacrifice, physical training. Those were the things that made you a success. Not some pill."
According to Fair, around this time, Hoffman had discovered isometrics – exerting force against a stationary object. He pitched this new training regimen hard in his magazine, and it quickly became a national exercise phenomenon.
There is still some dispute as to how much Hoffman knew about the steroid experimentation. It's clear, Fair said, that there was confusion as to whether it was the isometrics or steroids causing the improved performances of U.S. lifters in York.
Bill March and Louis Riecke, according to Fair, had displayed great and rapid progress. Hoffman ballyhooed the two lifters as proof of isometrics' benefits.
Later, they admitted to having used steroids.
"If [Ziegler] had told me to eat grass, I would have done so to get strong," March later told Fair.
Ziegler typically prescribed 10 milligrams a day. One of the first York lifters to try steroids, according to Fair, added 100 pounds to his best three-lift total in two months.
Terry Todd, now the coordinator of strength training at the University of Texas, was a young weightlifter then. Reading about the records that were falling, and which Hoffman was attributing to isometrics, he grew curious.
"I was using isometrics to no avail," he said. "So I went to York to learn why. [A lifter] there showed me a little brown bottle with 100 5-milligram tabs of Dianabol, these little pink pills."
Once others came to understand that connection, lifters began to press Ziegler for prescriptions, most of which, Fair said, were filled at Schultz's. In time, the store was shipping anabolic steroids to weightlifters throughout the United States. One of York's trainers would frequently take station-wagon loads of men to Ziegler's Maryland office for the treatments.
Ziegler gave Dianabol to the entire U.S. Olympic team in Rome in 1960. They still lost to the Soviets, leading to the belief that the Soviet scientists were ahead in more than just manned-space-travel technology.
It was all perfectly legal and, at that time, few foresaw the drug's potential dangers.
In time, many of York's lifters went on to become strength and conditioning coaches for football and track teams. They took their secret with them.
"You can see the appeal," Yesalis said. "No matter the sport, a good big man is almost always going to beat a good little man."
Ziegler and others gradually became aware of Dianabol's hazardous impact on the liver and heart. As news of steroids' beneficial impact and harmful side effects leaked into the general public, the debate over their use gained force.
Ziegler began to backtrack, cautioning lifters against indiscriminate steroid use.
"These guys were all young and strong and not really thinking about the drug's consequences," Fair said. "This concerned Ziegler. Things had gotten out of his control."
In 1967, the International Olympic Committee funded its own medical commission to perform drug tests on athletes. By the 1976 Olympics in Montreal, it was testing specifically for anabolic steroids. In 1991, the U.S. government placed them on its controlled-substance list.
Still, anabolic steroids, and the similar drugs that followed, were being used.
Hoffman died in 1985, the extent of his knowledge about his company's links to steroid abuse still unknown.
A year earlier, Ziegler had passed away. By then, despite their notorious reputation, anabolic steroids were being used even by high school athletes.
"All those young kids," he said in an interview shortly before his death, "what a terrible price they'll pay. If only I'd known it would come to this."
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John Ziegler, 1920 - 1983 was an American physician who originally developed the anabolic steroid Methandrostenolone (Dianabol, DBOL) which was released in the USA in 1958 by Ciba.
He pioneered its athletic use as an aid to muscle growth by bodybuilders, administering it to U.S. weightlifting champion Bill March of the York Barbell club in 1959 when he was the physician to the U.S. Weightlifting team. It was banned by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) under the Controlled Substances Act. In later life he was outspoken against its use in sport, saying "It is bad enough to have to deal with drug addicts, but now healthy athletes are putting themselves in the same category. It's a disgrace. Who plays sports for fun anymore?". Ziegler suffered from heart disease, which he partially ascribed to his experimentation with steroids, and he died from heart failure in 1983.
He served as a officer in the United States Marine Corps in the Pacific in World War II, where he suffered extensive bullet wounds. His experience of surgery and convalescence lead to a speciality in recuperative medicine at the University of Maryland Medical School. He served his internship and residency at Marine hospitals in Norfolk Virginia and Mobile Alabama, before completing a two year residence in neurology at Tulane University School of Medicine in New Orleans. In 1954 after he settled in Olney, Maryland he specialized in the treatment of handicapped and seriously injured patients whilst conducting chemistry research at Ciba Pharmaceuticals part time.
He became an enthusiastic weightlifter who pumped iron at the York Barbell Club, which was at the center of American fitness training thanks to its owner Bob Hoffman. Hoffman had competed with Joe Weider and Charles Atlas for the title of Mr America and wrote the book Weight Lifting in 1939. Ziegler's scientific credentials supplemented Hoffman's bodybuilding theories. Ziegler befriended weightlifter and bodybuilder champion John Grimek who was employed by Hoffman.
Developing anabolic steroids
Working at CIBA allowed Ziegler access to books and records from Germany where experiments with testosterone had been carried out by the Nazis, and which had been confiscated by the United States after the war.
In October 1954, Ziegler, went to Vienna with the American weightlifting team. There he met a Russian physicist who, over "a few drinks", repeatedly asked "What are you giving your boys?" When Ziegler returned the question, the Russian said that his own athletes were being given testosterone. Returning to America, Ziegler tried weak doses of testosterone on himself, on the American trainer Bob Hoffman and on two lifters, Jim Park and Yaz Kuzahara. All gained more weight and strength than any training programme would produce but there were side-effects. Ziegler sought a drug without after-effects and hit on an anabolic steroid, methandrostenolone, (Dianabol, DBOL), made in the U.S. in 1958 by Ciba.
Ziegler gave Dianabol to the entire U.S. Olympic weightlifting team in Rome in 1960, but they still lost to the Soviets.[5] He gave up experimentation with athletes when he learned that some who had taken 20 times the recommended dose of Dianabol had developed a liver condition. He was quoted in Science saying "I lost interest in fooling with IQ's of that caliber. Now it's about as widespread among these idiots as marihuana." In later years Ziegler regretted introducing AAS to athletes. He recollected "but I wish to God now I’d never done it. I’d like to go back and take that whole chapter out of my life."
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