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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Cleanest Natural on January 07, 2009, 02:19:18 AM

Title: :)))))
Post by: Cleanest Natural on January 07, 2009, 02:19:18 AM
Where's my buddy Donkey Kong ?

besides packing on mass what's he up to ?

Life and times of getbig's fav translator :))
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: webcake on January 07, 2009, 02:31:14 AM
His google translate skills are unmatched.  8)
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 02:33:48 AM
The great DonkeyKong is busy satisfying his harem of 100 of the finest Japanese ladies. Let's be happy for him, Sev
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 02:34:02 AM
I was in Japan, celebrating new year with my wife and my inlaws.

I see, even in 2009, i'm deep in your pathetic brain, sebastian.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 02:37:49 AM
I was in Japan, celebrating new year with my wife and my inlaws.

I see, even in 2009, i'm deep in your pathetic brain, sebastian.

Have you seen any Takashi Miike movies, DK? Ichi the killer, Visitor Q and others? Sick stuff, although I really like 1 missed call.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: madmax on January 07, 2009, 02:38:40 AM
sevastase, you work as a labourer right?
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: WillGrant on January 07, 2009, 02:40:59 AM
Have you seen any Takashi Miike movies, DK? Ichi the killer, Visitor Q and others? Sick stuff, although I really like 1 missed call.
Are these extreme Hentai or other type mate?
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 02:41:55 AM
Have you seen any Takashi Miike movies, DK? Ichi the killer, Visitor Q and others? Sick stuff, although I really like 1 missed call.

Yup, i saw some of them, but i don't like them very much.

Try to get the comic book of Ichi the Killer, that's even worse than the movie. The last movie "Sukiyaki Western: Django" is quite good though.

Are these extreme Hentai or other type mate?

No, just extremly brutal and sadistic.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 02:42:55 AM
sevastase, you work as a labourer tv star, porn star, tennis star, drug dealer, fairy right?

fixed.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Cleanest Natural on January 07, 2009, 02:47:15 AM
fixed.
lol...new year and you are busy "owning" on the internet hahaha

what a sad pathetic headcase
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Mars on January 07, 2009, 02:50:34 AM
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 02:51:04 AM
Are these extreme Hentai or other type mate?

Not Hentai at all - just regular movies. But the guy's got a very perverted mind (like yours and mine ;D) and some of the scenes are just over the top gory or plain disgusting. To give you an idea, in Ichi the killer, one of the guys fails in his duty of killing someone and so cuts his own tongue out (a part of it) and presents it to the boss, after which he immediately takes a call on his mobile. Visitor Q is probably the worst of the lot, although I haven't seen all of his work. 1 missed call was a horror movie and it was remade in Hollywood last year.

If you like sick, disturbing movies like 'The piano teacher', 'Irreversible', 'Ken Park', 'I spit on your grave' and stuff like that, you'll like Takashi Miike's work. Check this out

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290329/
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: WillGrant on January 07, 2009, 02:52:23 AM
Not Hentai at all - just regular movies. But the guy's got a very perverted mind (like yours and mine ;D) and some of the scenes are just over the top gory or plain disgusting. To give you an idea, in Ichi the killer, one of the guys fails in his duty of killing someone and so cuts his own tongue out (a part of it) and presents it to the boss, after which he immediately takes a call on his mobile. Visitor Q is probably the worst of the lot, although I haven't seen all of his work. 1 missed call was a horror movie and it was remade in Hollywood last year.

If you like sick, disturbing movies like 'The piano teacher', 'Irreversible', 'Ken Park', 'I spit on your grave' and stuff like that, you'll like Takashi Miike's work. Check this out

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290329/
Haha nice mate..Ill go check it out  :)  8)
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Eisenherz on January 07, 2009, 02:53:30 AM
du bist ein betruger zu deinem faterland. ???
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 02:53:38 AM
lol...new year and you are busy "owning" on the internet hahaha

what a sad pathetic headcase

Does it start again??

YOU are the owning machine, i never said i "owned" you. You're a fucked up kid, sebastian.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 02:54:24 AM
du bist ein betruger zu deinem faterland. ???

und dein Deutsch ist total beschissen.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 02:56:27 AM
Yup, i saw some of them, but i don't like them very much.

Try to get the comic book of Ichi the Killer, that's even worse than the movie. The last movie "Sukiyaki Western: Django" is quite good though.

Ah, I'm not into comics like I should be! I might pick up the habit someday. I'll see if I can get the movie you've mentioned.

Do you watch other Asian films DK? Have you seen 'Old boy'?
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Mars on January 07, 2009, 02:58:31 AM
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Eisenherz on January 07, 2009, 02:58:56 AM
und dein Deutsch ist total beschissen.

Ich habe sauerkraut heute gefressen.
Und du?
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 03:02:55 AM


Mars!!!! I'm sure you've seen a couple of the movies I've mentioned - I know you've seen Irreversible.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 03:04:02 AM
Ah, I'm not into comics like I should be! I might pick up the habit someday. I'll see if I can get the movie you've mentioned.

Do you watch other Asian films DK? Have you seen 'Old boy'?

Old Boy is great.

I watched a lot of asian movies years ago, i loved John Woo's heroic bloodshed operas.

If you like Samurai movies, get Musashi Miyamoto I-III, Tsubaki Sanjuro, Yojimbo, The Hidden Fortress (there's a remake out recently, very good as well), Zatoichi (Kitano Takeshi will do).

Some of the best japanese movies are definitly the "Lone Wolf and Cub" (Kozure Okami) series. A Must see.

(http://www.arts-wallpapers.com/movie_wallpapers/yojimbo/yojimbo2.jpg)

(http://vbsowmya.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/sanjuro.gif)

(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4973/babycartvol1lesabredelazg6.jpg)

(http://www.dvd-forum.at/bilder/dvdreview/cover/small/113661180623032100.jpg)
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 03:10:41 AM
Old Boy is great.

I watched a lot of asian movies years ago, i loved John Woo's heroic bloodshed operas.

If you like Samurai movies, get Musashi Miyamoto I-III, Tsubaki Sanjuro, Yojimbo, The Hidden Fortress (there's a remake out recently, very good as well), Zatoichi (Kitano Takeshi will do).

Some of the best japanese movies are definitly the "Lone Wolf and Cub" (Kozure Okami) series. A Must see.

Some good titles there. I used to flat with an Indonesian guy long time ago and he was into his movies like me. I used to get him to bring in all the obscure movies that you couldn't get in the mainstream video stores and sites online. I don't mind watching the occasional samurai flick, but I'm more a fan of horror and gore. I love Battle Royal and other movies like Audition, Kakashi, a tale of 2 sisters and stuff like that.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Mars on January 07, 2009, 03:14:27 AM
Mars!!!! I'm sure you've seen a couple of the movies I've mentioned - I know you've seen Irreversible.

haha was it you that mentioned a simular movie with the old frustrated man who lived with his girlfriend and her mom in the beginning?
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 03:14:44 AM
Some good titles there. I used to flat with an Indonesian guy long time ago and he was into his movies like me. I used to get him to bring in all the obscure movies that you couldn't get in the mainstream video stores and sites online. I don't mind watching the occasional samurai flick, but I'm more a fan of horror and gore. I love Battle Royal and other movies like Audition, Kakashi, a tale of 2 sisters and stuff like that.

Phone, Ring, Ju-On, Water, this kind of stuff?

You know "Story of Ricky"? A classic. I have to say chinese horror movies suck, but japanese and korean are quite good.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: LatsMcGee on January 07, 2009, 03:16:34 AM
The best horror films ever made came out of Italy.  No lie.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 03:22:19 AM
haha was it you that mentioned a simular movie with the old frustrated man who lived with his girlfriend and her mom in the beginning?

Could be, cause we've talked about this subject before. This movie '120 days of sodom' looks like it's right up your alley and Swede's, lol!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073650/

That's one of the movies I still haven't seen. I saw Cannibal Holocaust and Cannibal Ferox, and they too were right up there. Still, I don't mind watching them cause I know it's only a movie and it's all not real - you only see what is possible, unlike snuff, which I'd never see cause it's real :-X

Phone, Ring, Ju-On, Water, this kind of stuff?

You know "Story of Ricky"? A classic. I have to say chinese horror movies suck, but japanese and korean are quite good.

Yeah, that kind of stuff. And no, I haven't seen the story of Ricky. I'll check it out. Thanks and do let me know if you come across any horror movies that are good - I want to watch 'Shutter' and a couple of other ones.

I also really liked 'Alive'.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 03:26:04 AM
Could be, cause we've talked about this subject before. This movie '120 days of sodom' looks like it's right up your alley and Swede's, lol!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073650/

That's one of the movies I still haven't seen. I saw Cannibal Holocaust and Cannibal Ferox, and they too were right up there. Still, I don't mind watching them cause I know it's only a movie and it's all not real - you only see what is possible, unlike snuff, which I'd never see cause it's real :-X

Yeah, that kind of stuff. And no, I haven't seen the story of Ricky. I'll check it out. Thanks and do let me know if you come across any horror movies that are good - I want to watch 'Shutter' and a couple of other ones.

sure, no problem, but i'm not that into horror.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Petrucci on January 07, 2009, 03:28:56 AM
Some good titles there. I used to flat with an Indonesian guy long time ago and he was into his movies like me. I used to get him to bring in all the obscure movies that you couldn't get in the mainstream video stores and sites online. I don't mind watching the occasional samurai flick, but I'm more a fan of horror and gore. I love Battle Royal and other movies like Audition, Kakashi, a tale of 2 sisters and stuff like that.

i love all that movies too and i have a good collection of japanese horror movies...Miike is my favorite director
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 03:29:53 AM
sure, no problem, but i'm not that into horror.

LOL! I meant if you hear of any cause you go to Japan all the time and are part of the culture a lot more than people like me.

If you get the chance, check out this movie in case you haven't seen it already. It's not horror, but more of a psychological thriller and I really liked it

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0331834/
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 03:30:40 AM
i love all that movies too and i have a good collection of japanese horror movies...Miike is my favorite director

my brother in law worked with him, he's in the film business (lighting department, no one special) and currently he is working on some korean-japanese horror flic, that's supposed to be some good stuff too.

LOL! I meant if you hear of any cause you go to Japan all the time and are part of the culture a lot more than people like me.

If you get the chance, check out this movie in case you haven't seen it already. It's not horror, but more of a psychological thriller and I really liked it

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0331834/

thanks.

edit: I'm more into comics. I read some books from this fella, Takahashi Tsutomu.

Basilisk is a perfect example, the Manga was superb, the real movie totally sucked big time.

(http://yo.soy.basura.googlepages.com/basilisk.gif/basilisk-large.jpg)

(http://tamzee.com/seyretfiles/uploads/thumbnails/user_63/shinobi1.gif)
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 03:37:09 AM
i love all that movies too and i have a good collection of japanese horror movies...Miike is my favorite director

Haha nice! Have you seen the one which is actually 3 movies in one? Miike directed one of them and that movie just put me off dumplings for a while :D
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: WillGrant on January 07, 2009, 03:46:34 AM
Not Hentai at all - just regular movies. But the guy's got a very perverted mind (like yours and mine ;D) and some of the scenes are just over the top gory or plain disgusting. To give you an idea, in Ichi the killer, one of the guys fails in his duty of killing someone and so cuts his own tongue out (a part of it) and presents it to the boss, after which he immediately takes a call on his mobile. Visitor Q is probably the worst of the lot, although I haven't seen all of his work. 1 missed call was a horror movie and it was remade in Hollywood last year.

If you like sick, disturbing movies like 'The piano teacher', 'Irreversible', 'Ken Park', 'I spit on your grave' and stuff like that, you'll like Takashi Miike's work. Check this out

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290329/
Had a look bro..yup looks like my cup of tea..I like how the Japanese add humour to there "disturbing" type films to  :D..

Film festivals are always a go for these types of fillums and I used to be a starter to The incredibly strange film festival ,got to see some random bizzare shit at that festival,some really mad off the wall sick stuff but on the big screen..it was great..Did that come to Auckland as well?
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 03:51:43 AM
Had a look bro..yup looks like my cup of tea..I like how the Japanese add humour to there "disturbing" type films to  :D..

Film festivals are always a go for these types of fillums and I used to be a starter to The incredibly strange film festival ,got to see some random bizzare shit at that festival,some really mad off the wall sick stuff but on the big screen..it was great..Did that come to Auckland as well?

Haha I knew you'd like that stuff! And it's funny you should mention the incredibly strange film festival cause I was just thinking about it a while ago. Some of the movies in it were just plain whack, lol, like 'The beast'!

The Becks incredible film festival did have overnight marathons in Auckland, but unfortunately, they ran out of sponsors (including Becks) and it's no longer an annual event like it used to be up until 2004 or so. Such a shame, cause a lot of people loved it and it was packed beyond capacity during the marathons.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: WillGrant on January 07, 2009, 04:01:22 AM
Haha I knew you'd like that stuff! And it's funny you should mention the incredibly strange film festival cause I was just thinking about it a while ago. Some of the movies in it were just plain whack, lol, like 'The beast'!

The Becks incredible film festival did have overnight marathons in Auckland, but unfortunately, they ran out of sponsors (including Becks) and it's no longer an annual event like it used to be up until 2004 or so. Such a shame, cause a lot of people loved it and it was packed beyond capacity during the marathons.
Was around the same time it ended here to , I remember Becks taking over the running the last 2 or so years..It is such a shame , it was a great atmosphere at the films  with everyone enjoying types of films you dont get to see everyday being non mainstream..

Did you ever catch the Jim Rose Circus mate? that was hillarious , an utter freak show.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 04:17:16 AM
Did you ever catch the Jim Rose Circus mate? that was hillarious , an utter freak show.

No, never have. I just googled it and it looks sick, lol!
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: WillGrant on January 07, 2009, 04:21:10 AM
No, never have. I just googled it and it looks sick, lol!
Haha yup..But very amusing..Bebe and her flaming vagina was my fave  ;D
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Bona on January 07, 2009, 04:36:32 AM
Could be, cause we've talked about this subject before. This movie '120 days of sodom' looks like it's right up your alley and Swede's, lol!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073650/

That's one of the movies I still haven't seen. I saw Cannibal Holocaust and Cannibal Ferox, and they too were right up there. Still, I don't mind watching them cause I know it's only a movie and it's all not real - you only see what is possible, unlike snuff, which I'd never see cause it's real :-X

Yeah, that kind of stuff. And no, I haven't seen the story of Ricky. I'll check it out. Thanks and do let me know if you come across any horror movies that are good - I want to watch 'Shutter' and a couple of other ones.

I also really liked 'Alive'.

Do snuff films really exist??
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Mars on January 07, 2009, 05:21:26 AM
i want to see some snuff dudes. upp some.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 05:36:14 AM
Do snuff films really exist??

Of course. You can get it off the net - just need to know where to look and how to search
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Mars on January 07, 2009, 05:41:25 AM
Of course. You can get it off the net - just need to know where to look and how to search

there lots of fake in circulation.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Fatpanda on January 07, 2009, 05:49:22 AM
Old Boy is great.

I watched a lot of asian movies years ago, i loved John Woo's heroic bloodshed operas.

If you like Samurai movies, get Musashi Miyamoto I-III, Tsubaki Sanjuro, Yojimbo, The Hidden Fortress (there's a remake out recently, very good as well), Zatoichi (Kitano Takeshi will do).

Some of the best japanese movies are definitly the "Lone Wolf and Cub" (Kozure Okami) series. A Must see.

(http://www.arts-wallpapers.com/movie_wallpapers/yojimbo/yojimbo2.jpg)

(http://vbsowmya.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/sanjuro.gif)
 
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4973/babycartvol1lesabredelazg6.jpg)

(http://www.dvd-forum.at/bilder/dvdreview/cover/small/113661180623032100.jpg)

none are a patch on a good hong kong martial arts/shoot em up movie.

think john woo or Yuen Woo-ping   8)
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 06:04:59 AM
there lots of fake in circulation.

just like with steroids.

none are a patch on a good hong kong martial arts/shoot em up movie.

think john woo or Yuen Woo-ping   8)

That's apples and oranges, or rather apples and cucumbers.

total different era, both in the date when the movies were shot and the time when they play and the culture in which they were shot and that they depict.

No way you can compare these two, but i can see why you have the edge for Woo. Much more fast pitched, more action, easier to understand.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: GoneAway on January 07, 2009, 06:06:54 AM
Some of the best japanese movies are definitly the "Lone Wolf and Cub" (Kozure Okami) series. A Must see.

Fantastic series.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 06:09:28 AM
Fantastic series.

Ahhhhh, a believer i see....


 ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: QuakerOats on January 07, 2009, 06:10:42 AM
The great DonkeyKong is busy satisfying his harem of 100 of the biggest hairiest musclebears in San Francisco. Let's be happy for him, Sev
fixed.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Mars on January 07, 2009, 06:11:53 AM
welcome back Dave, hope you slept good.
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 06:12:12 AM
fixed.

lol, happy new year, Dave!!

How's the winter coming along? Isn't it getting cold between those sheet metals?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: QuakerOats on January 07, 2009, 06:12:57 AM
welcome back Dave, hope you slept good.
are you insinuferring that "donkeykong" is a bonesacked bottom twink, mars?
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 06:17:09 AM
are you insinuferring that "donkeykong" is a bonesacked bottom twink, mars?

Wow, seems like i hurt you....


Sorry Dave, let's be friends. I have other friends that are poor as well.  ;D
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: QuakerOats on January 07, 2009, 06:18:44 AM
Wow, seems like i hurt you....


Sorry Dave, let's be friends. I have other friends that are poor as well.  ;D
i'll never be poor with all the money your mom and sister bring me off the streets...........BTW did you ever work up the nuts to post your picture? :D
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: DK II on January 07, 2009, 06:21:49 AM
i'll never be poor with all the money your mom and sister bring me off the streets...........BTW did you ever work up the nuts to post your picture? :D

What picture??

Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Stu on January 07, 2009, 06:30:07 AM
What picture??



Is it true these guys are making fun of the squadfather?

Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Petrucci on January 07, 2009, 06:33:58 AM
Could be, cause we've talked about this subject before. This movie '120 days of sodom' looks like it's right up your alley and Swede's, lol!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073650/

That's one of the movies I still haven't seen. I saw Cannibal Holocaust and Cannibal Ferox, and they too were right up there. Still, I don't mind watching them cause I know it's only a movie and it's all not real - you only see what is possible, unlike snuff, which I'd never see cause it's real :-X

Yeah, that kind of stuff. And no, I haven't seen the story of Ricky. I'll check it out. Thanks and do let me know if you come across any horror movies that are good - I want to watch 'Shutter' and a couple of other ones.

I also really liked 'Alive'.

I have this movie 'Saló' or 120 days of sodomy, its a masterpiece of extreme cinema...Pasolini was murdered by an actor of this movie right after he finished it1!!

cool that you watched cannibal holocaust...I simply LOOOOVE all the cannibal genre..LOL...i have ALL the classics

the movie with Miike, Chan-wook Park and another guys its the Masters of Horror...yeah i watched that movie its awesome...

I have some classic movies that where considered in some time 'snuff' movies...very cool also
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Nordic Beast on January 07, 2009, 07:27:36 AM


If you like sick, disturbing movies like 'The piano teacher', 'Irreversible', 'Ken Park', 'I spit on your grave' and stuff like that, you'll like Takashi Miike's work. Check this out

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290329/

haha you just named some of my favortie movies----Harmony Korine is so much more than just sick in terms of depth of his movies though----have you seen "Julien Donkey Boy"??

he's coming out with something new this year
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: kiwiol on January 07, 2009, 07:41:48 AM
I have this movie 'Saló' or 120 days of sodomy, its a masterpiece of extreme cinema...Pasolini was murdered by an actor of this movie right after he finished it1!!

cool that you watched cannibal holocaust...I simply LOOOOVE all the cannibal genre..LOL...i have ALL the classics

the movie with Miike, Chan-wook Park and another guys its the Masters of Horror...yeah i watched that movie its awesome...

I have some classic movies that where considered in some time 'snuff' movies...very cool also

Good stuff mate. What's your top 5 or top 10 f*cked up movies ever?

haha you just named some of my favortie movies----Harmony Korine is so much more than just sick in terms of depth of his movies though----have you seen "Julien Donkey Boy"??

he's coming out with something new this year

LOL! I knew there was a good chance you'd have something to contribute to this topic! And no, I haven't seen Julien Donkey Boy - I just IMDBed it and it looks interesting. We'll discuss these movies a bit more sometime, Nordic 8)
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Petrucci on January 07, 2009, 08:31:21 AM
Good stuff mate. What's your top 5 or top 10 f*cked up movies ever?

LOL! I knew there was a good chance you'd have something to contribute to this topic! And no, I haven't seen Julien Donkey Boy - I just IMDBed it and it looks interesting. We'll discuss these movies a bit more sometime, Nordic 8)

man, difficult to make a top 5 or 10 so fast...

but talking about movies with f*cked up gory scenes, off course you would have to say Cannibal Holocaust, Cannibal Ferox...Guinea Pig's devil experiment, psycho the snuff reels...Audition, Antropophagous (the 2000 version)...Scrhamm, Nekromantik 1 and 2...man, so much  good movies!!! lol

Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: MusselFreek on January 07, 2009, 09:36:32 AM
Hmmm alot of gore?? machingun girl, tokyo gore police fit the bill...  ;D
Title: Re: :)))))
Post by: Petrucci on January 07, 2009, 09:55:32 AM
i remembered Premutos...never saw so many deaths in one movie LOL.

if you like very intelectually sick and defying movies, look for Subcouncious Cruelty (a masterpiece) and Begotten (another masterpiece)

both are a must see