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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: TBUNZEE on January 07, 2009, 03:39:50 PM
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Quick question for everyone on here....Im just wondering how many of you experience muscular soreness that day(s) after a workout to be the key determining factor of a job well done? Do you always get sore after every workout and if you dont do you feel like you didnt push it hard enough the day before? I get pissed if my biceps are not sore after an arms workout (rarely happens) and I love it when my legs are super sore for days after a great leg workout...Nutrition, hydration, drugs, etc can all effect this but just wondering what your general thoughts are and to see if your angry when not sore the next day like me...
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i find it mostly annoying
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My legs always hurt two days after I work them out.
I'm not sure why.
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My legs always hurt two days after I work them out.
I'm not sure why.
same with more hurt 2nd day than day after
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Not having DOMS doesn't mean you didn't have a good workout nor does it mean your not progressing.
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Yeah legs seem to take a day and than bam they hit ya with the soreness out of nowhere....they seem to be the exception to this rule...
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Coach what does it mean then? I always just assumed you did a better job tearing the muscle fibers when sore the next day...(along with other things)
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Not having DOMS doesn't mean you didn't have a good workout nor does it mean your not progressing.
Exactly.
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I give squat racks DOMS.
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Not having DOMS doesn't mean you didn't have a good workout nor does it mean your not progressing.
what does it mean when you have it and when you don't then ???
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We're not sure what it means, as with most things with bodybuilding there's no clear answer
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As far as I know Lactic acid is the sole cause of muscle soreness. So it's really not an indicator of how successful your workout was.
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As far as I know Lactic acid is the sole cause of muscle soreness. So it's really not an indicator of how successful your workout was.
but that's during the workout, not days after??
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As far as I know Lactic acid is the sole cause of muscle soreness. So it's really not an indicator of how successful your workout was.
Lactic acid has nothing to do with DOMS. People believed this like 30 years ago - now we know better.
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Lactic acid has nothing to do with DOMS. People believed this like 30 years ago - now we know better.
well, spill it then, einstein :D
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This is true the lactic acid is during not after....Coach give us the info we seek as you seem very knowledgeable or is it one of those things we just truly dont know....DOMS=a better ripping of muscle fibers from the day before=better growth if muscles are fed...T OR F ?
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but that's during the workout, not days after??
Lactic acid has nothing to do with DOMS. People believed this like 30 years ago - now we know better.
Oh you guys are right.
Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), also sometimes called muscle fever, is the pain or discomfort often felt 24 to 72 hours after exercising and subsides generally within 2 to 3 days. It is frequently said to be caused by lactic acid buildup; however, since lactic acid disperses fairly rapidly, it could not explain pain experienced days after exercise, and some concentric-only exercises produce lactic acid, but rarely produce DOMS.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_onset_muscle_soreness
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From Wikipedia: "Some research claims that DOMS is not caused by the pain from damaged muscle cells, but from the reinforcement process.[3] The muscle responds to training by reinforcing itself up to and above its previous strength by increasing the size of muscle fibers (muscle hypertrophy). This reinforcement process causes the cells to swell in their compartment and put pressure on nerves and arteries producing pain" this seems to say that DOMS would be a good result of a hard workout and a job well done vs. no DOMS at all no ?
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From what I can remember we had plenty of discussions on this subject on the training board, might wanna check that out
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There are a few theories behind DOMS. One is to do with the Z lines of sarcomeres being disrupted and plasma proteins leaking out of the cell, creating an inflammatory response, hence the swollen feeling and pain. In a lot of clinical investigations they use creatine kinase (one of the plasma proteins) as a marker for DOMS. Prostaglandin E2 is also involved in the inflammatory response and this is why a lot of people believe that NSAIDs can help recovery from DOMS.
Another theory is to do with the production of reactive oxygen species and an influx of phagocytes or something ???
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All i know is that since i started stretching a lot, DOMS have been minimal.
Too many people place too much emphasis on DOMS, and seem to determine the effectiveness of a workout by how sore they are the next day.
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From Wikipedia: "Some research claims that DOMS is not caused by the pain from damaged muscle cells, but from the reinforcement process.[3] The muscle responds to training by reinforcing itself up to and above its previous strength by increasing the size of muscle fibers (muscle hypertrophy). This reinforcement process causes the cells to swell in their compartment and put pressure on nerves and arteries producing pain" this seems to say that DOMS would be a good result of a hard workout and a job well done vs. no DOMS at all no ?
the answer i was hoping for....as i've always aimed to get sore (man that sounds gay) but seriously feel like my workout was not good enough if i don't get sore.
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From Wikipedia: "Some research claims that DOMS is not caused by the pain from damaged muscle cells, but from the reinforcement process.[3] The muscle responds to training by reinforcing itself up to and above its previous strength by increasing the size of muscle fibers (muscle hypertrophy). This reinforcement process causes the cells to swell in their compartment and put pressure on nerves and arteries producing pain" this seems to say that DOMS would be a good result of a hard workout and a job well done vs. no DOMS at all no ?
I would disagree, DOMS isn't really a measurement of a hard workout, moreso a measurement of a workout that your body wasn't adequately prepared for.
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I've been warming up really well, and not noticing it as bad. It use to be so bad it hurt to go down steps two days after legs.
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burn2live crazy intellectual response nicely done... also webcke stretching has def. helped me eliminate DOMS also....I guess we put this debate to rest for now...
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All i know is that since i started stretching a lot, DOMS have been minimal.
Too many people place too much emphasis on DOMS, and seem to determine the effectiveness of a workout by how sore they are the next day.
The stretching prior to a workout could be related to the Z-line theory I mentioned. By applying a smaller force (via stretching) to the muscle before you start training then you could be stretching out the muscle fibres more progressively as you begin training? Therefore you're not just bombing in and causing excessive damage to the fibres
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All i know is that since i started stretching a lot, DOMS have been minimal.
Too many people place too much emphasis on DOMS, and seem to determine the effectiveness of a workout by how sore they are the next day.
stretching can help, but after a brutal workout, no amount of stretching is gonna keep you from being sore. my experience anyway
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The stretching prior to a workout could be related to the Z-line theory I mentioned. By applying a smaller force (via stretching) to the muscle before you start training then you could be stretching out the muscle fibres more progressively as you begin training? Therefore you're not just bombing in and causing excessive damage to the fibres
you stretch before ? what about the rubberband in the freezer ???
i only stretch after, sometimes during...but I never stretch cold muscles.
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The stretching prior to a workout could be related to the Z-line theory I mentioned. By applying a smaller force (via stretching) to the muscle before you start training then you could be stretching out the muscle fibres more progressively as you begin training? Therefore you're not just bombing in and causing excessive damage to the fibres
Interesting.
Admittedly, i only perform minimal stretching pre workout, but between sets and post workout i stretch a lot. Never really got into pre workout stretching, just because of all the stuff you hear about stretching a cold muscle.
stretching can help, but after a brutal workout, no amount of stretching is gonna keep you from being sore. my experience anyway
For me, even after the hardest leg workout, with enough stretching i can feel pretty good the next day. Obviously not 100% pain free, but not as bad as it was before.
I'm training legs today, so i'll see how i go...
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Interesting.
Admittedly, i only perform minimal stretching pre workout, but between sets and post workout i stretch a lot. Never really got into pre workout stretching, just because of all the stuff you hear about stretching a cold muscle.
For me, even after the hardest leg workout, with enough stretching i can feel pretty good the next day. Obviously not 100% pain free, but not as bad as it was before.
I'm training legs today, so i'll see how i go...
Related to another thread, but I've found glutamine really helped me with DOMS.
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Lactic acid has nothing to do with DOMS. People believed this like 30 years ago - now we know better.
Agree
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Agree
Still PT'ing in Hallandale? Hope not!
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I would disagree, DOMS isn't really a measurement of a hard workout, moreso a measurement of a workout that your body wasn't adequately prepared for.
With logic like this you are unlikely to discover anything important in hypertrophy.
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I would disagree, DOMS isn't really a measurement of a hard workout, moreso a measurement of a workout that your body wasn't adequately prepared for.
Spot on.
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This topic isn't about opinions but about physical processes that can be observed, measured, tested, etc. Consensus on a musclehead board is hardly exercise science.
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This topic isn't about opinions but about physical processes that can be observed, measured, tested, etc. Consensus on a musclehead board is hardly exercise science.
Sore loser :P
But in all seriousness, DOMS isn't necessary for hypertrophy.
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This topic isn't about opinions but about physical processes that can be observed, measured, tested, etc. Consensus on a musclehead board is hardly exercise science.
well what is your opinion on this topic then?
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i did a back workout only with lots of sets on chins, the soreness is quite painfull.
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I would disagree, DOMS isn't really a measurement of a hard workout, moreso a measurement of a workout that your body wasn't adequately prepared for.
this is 100% true. if you keep getting doms, while doing the same amount of work you are not growing.
here is a post i made on the steroid board last week about this:
its a tough one as there hasn't been any definative scientific conclusions yet, for example this study explains the most logical theorys:
Mechanisms of exercise-induced delayed onset muscular soreness: a brief review.
Armstrong RB.
Delayed-onset muscular soreness (DOMS), the sensation of pain and stiffness in the muscles that occurs from 1 to 5 d following unaccustomed exercise, can adversely affect muscular performance, both from voluntary reduction of effort and from inherent loss of capacity of the muscles to produce force. This reduction in performance is temporary; permanent impairment does not occur. A number of clinical correlates are associated with DOMS, including elevations in plasma enzymes, myoglobinemia, and abnormal muscle histology and ultrastructure; exertional rhabdomyolysis appears to be the extreme form of DOMS. Presently, the best treatment for DOMS appears to be muscular activity, although the sensation again returns following the exercise. Training for the specific contractile activity that causes DOMS reduces the soreness response. The etiology and cellular mechanisms of DOMS are not known, but a number of hypotheses exist to explain the phenomenon. The following model may be proposed: 1) high tensions (particularly those associated with eccentric exercise) in the contractile/elastic system of the muscle result in structural damage; 2) cell membrane damage leads to disruption of Ca++ homeostasis in the injured fibers, resulting in necrosis that peaks about 2 d post-exercise; and 3) products of macrophage activity and intracellular contents accumulate in the interstitium, which in turn stimulate free nerve endings of group-IV sensory neurons in the muscles leading to the sensation of DOMS.
PMID: 6392811 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
however i feel this study rules out the necrosis (cell death) and macrophage activity ( inflamation and clearing of waste) theorys :
Eccentric contractions leading to DOMS do not cause loss of desmin nor fibre necrosis in human muscle.Yu JG, Malm C, Thornell LE.
Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Section for Anatomy, Umeå University, 901 87 Umeå, Sweden.
High force eccentric muscle contractions can result in delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), prolonged loss of muscle strength, decreased range of motion, muscle swelling and an increase of muscle proteins in the blood. At the ultrastructural level Z-line streaming and myofibrillar disruptions have been taken as evidence for muscle damage. In animal models of eccentric exercise-induced injury, disruption of the cytoskeleton and the sarcolemma of muscle fibres occurs within the first hour after the exercise, since a rapid loss of staining of desmin, a cytoskeletal protein, and the presence of fibronectin, a plasma and extracellular protein, are observed within the muscle fibres. In the present study, biopsies from subjects who had performed different eccentric exercises and had developed DOMS were examined. Our aim was to determine whether eccentric exercise leading to DOMS causes sarcolemmal disruption and loss of desmin in humans. Our study shows that even though the subjects had DOMS, muscle fibres had neither lost staining for desmin nor contained plasma fibronectin. This study therefore does not support previous conclusions that there is muscle fibre degeneration and necrosis in human skeletal muscle after eccentric exercise leading to DOMS. Our data are in agreement with the recent findings that there is no inflammatory response in skeletal muscle following eccentric exercise in humans. In combination, these findings should stimulate the search for other mechanisms explaining the functional and structural alterations in human skeletal muscle after eccentric exercise.
this only leaves us with the theory about high tension resulting in structural damage, or some other unhear/undiscovered process.
Personally i think the high tension theory makes the most sense, and that the pain is caused by excessive structural fibre damage as it is simply too much weight/damage for the body to handle ( a bit like sunburn ). This also holds true as everyone knows a light workout helps the pain go away - due to the blood ( carrying nutrients) being pumped into the damaged area ths helping healing/rebuilding.
the next workout there is usually no pain, or at least no where near after a long layoff.
So IMO i think you should not strive for DOMS. Yes you are growing, and yes you can recover, but i just feel its not optimal nor needed. Its certainly not comfortable when its excessive pain and you can barely walk, tand, sit etc
other thoughts: The body produces prostaglandins in response to injury. one of the effects of prostaglandins is to sensitise nerve endings, causing pain (presumably to prevent us from causing further harm to the area) but it also produces inflammation, but if that 2ns study is correct, it can't be that either.
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Most of the work re DOMS is done trying to find ways to lessen or avoid the pain from sport, exertion or exercise. It makes a big difference what the scientists are looking for.
Why are there still questions about this physical process?
Fat Panda wrote: So IMO i think you should not strive for DOMS. Yes you are growing, and yes you can recover, but i just feel its not optimal nor needed. Its certainly not comfortable when its excessive pain and you can barely walk, tand, sit etc
What has opinion got to do with hypertrophy? What someone feels is needed or optimum doesn't matter, either. Whether it is comfortable or not is irrelevant to rapid growth.
Most of you fellows are merely making your ideas, needs and comfort what exercise should be all about. That is hardly a formula for optimum growth from exercise.
Suppose one wanted to grow as rapidly as possible without drugs or supplements. What would happen if one kept a target muscle quite sore for a month? Would that muscle grow rapidly? Assuming, of course, that sufficient nutrients were provided. Does a muscle have to recover to grow rapidly? What about the repeated bout effect?
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Most of you fellows are merely making your ideas, needs and comfort what exercise should be all about. That is hardly a formula for optimum growth from exercise.
you have not even mearly made an idea. you have simply added more questions while alluding to some secret that only you know.........
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dianabol
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There are a few theories behind DOMS. One is to do with the Z lines of sarcomeres being disrupted and plasma proteins leaking out of the cell, creating an inflammatory response, hence the swollen feeling and pain. In a lot of clinical investigations they use creatine kinase (one of the plasma proteins) as a marker for DOMS. Prostaglandin E2 is also involved in the inflammatory response and this is why a lot of people believe that NSAIDs can help recovery from DOMS.
Another theory is to do with the production of reactive oxygen species and an influx of phagocytes or something ???
pge2 is produce in response to pga2 ? so maybe doms is in response to pga2 as a result pge2 ass a result doms ?
make sense?
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Most of the work re DOMS is done trying to find ways to lessen or avoid the pain from sport, exertion or exercise. It makes a big difference what the scientists are looking for.
Why are there still questions about this physical process?
Fat Panda wrote: So IMO i think you should not strive for DOMS. Yes you are growing, and yes you can recover, but i just feel its not optimal nor needed. Its certainly not comfortable when its excessive pain and you can barely walk, tand, sit etc
What has opinion got to do with hypertrophy? What someone feels is needed or optimum doesn't matter, either. Whether it is comfortable or not is irrelevant to rapid growth.
Most of you fellows are merely making your ideas, needs and comfort what exercise should be all about. That is hardly a formula for optimum growth from exercise.
Suppose one wanted to grow as rapidly as possible without drugs or supplements. What would happen if one kept a target muscle quite sore for a month? Would that muscle grow rapidly? Assuming, of course, that sufficient nutrients were provided. Does a muscle have to recover to grow rapidly? What about the repeated bout effect?
If you want to grow as rapidly as possible without drugs or supplements then by all means train for a week making sure you hurt like hell. You'll be bigger, how much of that is due to actual hypertrophy and not an inflammatory response is debatable. Train consistently like that for months and years without drugs or supplements and you will quickly plateau and will have grown much less than someone else who trains smarter.
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pge2 is produce in response to pga2 ? so maybe doms is in response to pga2 as a result pge2 ass a result doms ?
make sense?
I'm a little confused. What's the function of pga2? Something in the back of my head is telling me it stops the growth of cells? Anyway, is it released in response to pge2? Didn't know this. Educate me! ;D
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pge2 is produce in response to pga2 ? so maybe doms is in response to pga2 as a result pge2 ass a result doms ?
make sense?
If you want to grow as rapidly as possible without drugs or supplements then by all means train for a week making sure you hurt like hell. You'll be bigger, how much of that is due to actual hypertrophy and not an inflammatory response is debatable. Train consistently like that for months and years without drugs or supplements and you will quickly plateau and will have grown much less than someone else who trains smarter.
read that 2nd study i posted, there is no inflammory responce., therefore no prostaglandins ( as this produces inflammation).
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are you saying one should not train hard because of soreness?
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I'm a little confused. What's the function of pga2? Something in the back of my head is telling me it stops the growth of cells? Anyway, is it released in response to pge2? Didn't know this. Educate me! ;D
well i am only slightly educated about prostaglandins. i know pgf2a is highly anabolic and also highly lipolytic. i know there is a counter prostaglandin for pgf2a, which is ver anti anabolic and lipogenic. i assume pge2 is this counter prostaglandin, because when evcer ive seen it written, it was pgf2e. but i doubt theress anydiffere, just a difference in abbreviation.
the anabolic lipolytic prostaglandin is used sometimes by bodybuilders.
http://mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/prostaglandins.htm
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I know some pussies that go out of there way to not be sore.less reps,less weight,less sets.If you bust your ass in the gym for an hour and don't feel it the next day then you wasn't busting your ass.
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however i feel this study rules out the necrosis (cell death) and macrophage activity ( inflamation and clearing of waste) theorys :
Eccentric contractions leading to DOMS do not cause loss of desmin nor fibre necrosis in human muscle.Yu JG, Malm C, Thornell LE.
Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Section for Anatomy, Umeå University, 901 87 Umeå, Sweden.
other thoughts: The body produces prostaglandins in response to injury. one of the effects of prostaglandins is to sensitise nerve endings, causing pain (presumably to prevent us from causing further harm to the area) but it also produces inflammation, but if that 2ns study is correct, it can't be that either.
I can't access the study in bold at the moment. I'll need to see if I can get it somewhere else. The author here seems to be saying that necrosis does not cause DOMS and in turn, therefore prostaglandins can't be involved if I'm reading correctly? ??? I'm not sure how this conclusion was drawn, as the presence of prostaglandins does not always mean necrosis.
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well i am only slightly educated about prostaglandins. i know pgf2a is highly anabolic and also highly lipolytic. i know there is a counter prostaglandin for pgf2a, which is ver anti anabolic and lipogenic. i assume pge2 is this counter prostaglandin, because when evcer ive seen it written, it was pgf2e. but i doubt theress anydiffere, just a difference in abbreviation.
the anabolic lipolytic prostaglandin is used sometimes by bodybuilders.
http://mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/prostaglandins.htm
By that reasoning then if pge2 is present in DOMS then it's counterproductive in terms of muscle-building to induce DOMS?
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another thing that cracks me up is when someone says I've been workin out so long I don't get sore anymore.or I'm in such good shape I don't get sore.haha funny stuff.
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I can't access the study in bold at the moment. I'll need to see if I can get it somewhere else. The author here seems to be saying that necrosis does not cause DOMS and in turn, therefore prostaglandins can't be involved if I'm reading correctly? ??? I'm not sure how this conclusion was drawn, as the presence of prostaglandins does not always mean necrosis.
no no no, it says nothing about prostaglandins, it says there is no inflammation responce with doms, if there is no inflammation then there can't be prostagladins, because one of the effects of prostaglandins is inflammation.
did anyone read my post ? ??? :'(
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no no no, it says nothing about prostaglandins, it says there is no inflammation responce with doms, if there is no inflammation then there can't be prostagladins, because one of the effects of prostaglandins is inflammation.
did anyone read my post ? ??? :'(
Sorry, my bad. I see what you mean now...I'm really interested in this now. Going to read a few review articles tonight and see what I can make of it all. Thanks for the info man
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By that reasoning then if pge2 is present in DOMS then it's counterproductive in terms of muscle-building to induce DOMS?
well. pge2 would eb the counter regulatory prostaglandin to pgf2a. i believe that after exercise yoru muscles produce pgf2a to make sure th muscle adapts to the load just put on it. and it releases pge2 at the same time t sorter of "moniot" or "keep in chekc" the anabolic/lipolytic pgf2a. so if pge2 is what causes doms, then doms is a sign that pgf2a has been released. thus, doms would be VERY procutive, since pgf2a is a very beneficial prostaglandin and has great effects of body composition.
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If you want to grow as rapidly as possible without drugs or supplements then by all means train for a week making sure you hurt like hell. You'll be bigger, how much of that is due to actual hypertrophy and not an inflammatory response is debatable. Train consistently like that for months and years without drugs or supplements and you will quickly plateau and will have grown much less than someone else who trains smarter.
Read the research. You can't dismiss the increase in size as mere inflammation.
Why would one quickly plateau if training to keep one quite sore? That is not my experience. How about experimenting with yourself on one muscle group such as biceps and triceps and see if that happens. Most trainees cannot induce DOMS in their biceps. If you could induce DOMS with each and every workout then imagine how rapidly you could grow. I grew an inch on my arms in one month using this method. I couldn't get the biceps sore but the triceps responded when I did the right exercise. I also put about 1 1/4 inches on my calves in a month. This was when I was 56 years old. Who knows what the limits are?
Whoever grows the most in a short period of time is the smartest trainee. I swear the concepts in bodybuilding are believed like people believe religions. Results are what should make believers, not armchair bodybuilding. Ooops, I forgot, everyone is an expert on the internet and in every serious gym.