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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: QuakerOats on February 10, 2009, 04:15:54 PM
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decided to toy with my form a little and do "Kroc curls" named after the powerlifter with the great build Matt Kroczaleski and start the movement with a little bit of a swing and kind of keep that form going for the set of 8-10 without pausing at the top or bottom, just get it moving with a little momentum and keep it going for the whole set and biceps were fuccking PUMPED like i've NEVER had them before, felt like they were going to explode after two sets, i'll see if a can find a clip.
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fast forward to 2:22 of this clip.
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That's pretty much what coleman used, what schwarzenegger did, branch warren does, etc. I'm a big believer in cheats and partials. The idea that strict is better isn't necessarily true at all-it can be less effective AND cause more injuries. Of course, this looser method can be overdone and cause injuries too if it gets too sloppy.
I suggest trying the same on things like extensions-not doing the bottom strictly is easier on the elbows. On pulldowns i find that avoiding the very last couple of inches at the top reduces injury.
When i do preacher curls i don't do the bottom 2-3", it's easier on the connective tissues and better for the muscles IMO.
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Great training clip..actually see a clear pic of how the movements are done. Why everyone has to add music (even the good sounds bad...that was bad computer programed music) on most video's, I do not know.
Those "Kroc curls" do look like cheating curls. Maybe I am wrong and that is another name for cheat BB curls. If so, I am not aware of it (no surprise there). When every rep (not just the last few) are helped by body English. Pretty much a staple for getting bigger arms out here. Seen some very impressive weight used on those.Good Luck.
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"Kroc" curls are a crock!
They're just normal regular curls with some cheat.
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"Kroc" curls are a crock!
They're just normal regular curls with some cheat.
never claimed that they were something revolutionary, just said that it was something different than i normally do, i normally do curls in a slow deliberate manner and decided to give these a try, nothing more.
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That means they're not a crock but another name for something that works.
Cheat curls are essentially a form of partials when it comes to working the muscles. Better than strict IMO and those of many greats.
Notice I quoted kroc. Calling them "kroc" curls is the crock because they are something else.
Cheats help build quantity of the bicep.. or bulk. Strict and partials work more quality, or shape.
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never claimed that they were something revolutionary, just said that it was something different than i normally do, i normally do curls in a slow deliberate manner and decided to give these a try, nothing more.
Interesting that you stayed with strict curls. A whole set of cheats or cheats at the end is the way to go in terms of progressing, because of the flawed resistance curve with free weight curls. It's harder to improve doing only strict curls.
Same for extensions, it takes alot of stress of the elbows.
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I'm just saying that they're known as "kroc" curls is funny cause they're just cheat curls.
it's like calling close grip benches "(my last name)" presses.
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Notice I quoted kroc. Calling them "kroc" curls is the crock because they are something else.
Cheats help build quantity of the bicep.. or bulk. Strict and partials work more quality, or shape.
actually the guys at Elite Fitness Systems gave them that name, he trains there from time to time, they did the same thing for his version of chins, he's actually a pretty humble dude if you ever see clips of him and would probably never put his name on an exercise that's been around for decades.
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im not harrassing you quaker... just the name. 8)
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im not harrassing you quaker... just the name. 8)
oh i know, i was just explaining it.
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word.
i'm actually liking strict, half portion sets of curls. Just the botton half, with elbows pinned. Get a great pump.
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how ive always done bb curls.
cable curls i do alot more strict.
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I've always used a bit of cheating for my last set of curls. Most of the strict biceps work I do is with lighter weight, focusing on the contraction.
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decided to toy with my form a little and do "Kroc curls" named after the powerlifter with the great build Matt Kroczaleski and start the movement with a little bit of a swing and kind of keep that form going for the set of 8-10 without pausing at the top or bottom, just get it moving with a little momentum and keep it going for the whole set and biceps were fuccking PUMPED like i've NEVER had them before, felt like they were going to explode after two sets, i'll see if a can find a clip.
Cheat curls? Congrats...a great way to train arms.
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Partials & cheats for curls..I don't suggest full ROM on preachers, avoid the bottom. I've gotten injured doing full ROM preachers. It's harder on the body and less effective.
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I'd stopped doing straight barbell curls because they've hurt my elbow abit, but I think that was because my form was too strict. I'd keep my elbows fully tucked into my sides, and keep them there the whole set even during my cheat reps. Every video/picture I've seen of a pro doing curls their elbows are always angled away from their sides. I always though they were just using shitty form, but I guess it's just the more comfortable and effective way. The Victor video shows exactly what I'm saying they do.
Same with preacher curls. I don't do them often, and when I do it's only with dumbbells, but I use full ROM on these too but haven't had a problem. However, I've never seen a pro ever do full ROM on preachers. Again, I thought were using shitty form, but they're doing what's safer, like Pumpster said.
I'm all for safer options, but I also don't want to miss out on the full stretch of the movement in curls and extensions, how do you compensate for this?
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I'd stopped doing straight barbell curls because they've hurt my elbow abit, but I think that was because my form was too strict. I'd keep my elbows fully tucked into my sides, and keep them there the whole set even during my cheat reps. Every video/picture I've seen of a pro doing curls their elbows are always angled away from their sides. I always though they were just using shitty form, but I guess it's just the more comfortable and effective way. The Victor video shows exactly what I'm saying they do.
Same with preacher curls. I don't do them often, and when I do it's only with dumbbells, but I use full ROM on these too but haven't had a problem. However, I've never seen a pro ever do full ROM on preachers. Again, I thought were using shitty form, but they're doing what's safer, like Pumpster said.
I'm all for safer options, but I also don't want to miss out on the full stretch of the movement in curls and extensions, how do you compensate for this?
the excuse you hear most often is that "you want to lower full a full stretch to hit the lower part of the muscle" which is a crock of shit, the muscle you're training either contracts fully or it doesn't contract no matter what "form" you use, this "full stretch" nonsense is just a myth like many others in the gym world.
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the excuse you hear most often is that "you want to lower full a full stretch to hit the lower part of the muscle" which is a crock of shit, the muscle you're training either contracts fully or it doesn't contract no matter what "form" you use, this "full stretch" nonsense is just a myth like many others in the gym world.
Totally disagree. When you don't give a full stretch, you end up getting too much shoulder into the movement.
I see a lot of guys not bringing the weight all the way down.... they tend to pivot at the shoulder and not the elbow. The arm stays kinda locked (at elbow) and just moves at the shoulder.
But then again, just my opinion, and whatever works for one doesn't the other.
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Partials & cheats for curls..I don't suggest full ROM on preachers, avoid the bottom. I've gotten injured doing full ROM preachers. It's harder on the body and less effective.
sure seems to work for Victor Martinez in this clip, don't see any lack of development there, Coltrane.
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The "full stretch" argument is related to the "working harder" one when it comes to full ROM and strict. Neither holds water in my opinion, been there done that. There's no basis that i can see for the claim that full ROM is any advantage, and it's not safer.
I don't get any shoulder in preachers from doing partials, it's completely on the bis. What you're talking about, rocking at the top is common and is a little bit of cheating on preachers that is effective, can be done with full or partial ROM.
If i do full ROM preachers it highly stresses the area around the top of the forearms/bottom of bis, which isn't what i want to hit anyway. I've strained that area by trying to stick with full ROM to the bottom, and by doing strict. Partials center the effect in the middle/belly of the muscle and are easier on the muscles, besides which if you believe in time under tension/constant tension on the muscle, full ROM isn't as good.
Same thing for squats, my best results were from box squats, not doing full ROM. Not just safer, more effective also.
I just hurt one of my lats from doing full ROM hammer pulldowns. When it's better i'll stay with 80% ROM that weren't causing problems.
If the elbow problem from doing curls was on the inside of the elbow, it's called golfer's elbow. It usually happens from either curls or lat work with certain grips-essentially without realizing it while using those pulling muscles you're also squeezing your elbows and arms together during the exercise, even though it's not obvious. Over time that creates the pain. If you try slight variations and change the form a little you can find something that will work and the pain will go away.
Found a local gym i like..sweet..people are serious, good looking trim, nice vibe, music..it's a winner. ;)
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sure seems to work for Victor Martinez in this clip, don't see any lack of development there, Coltrane.
Of course there is no "lack of development" when youre on a shit load of gear.
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Of course there is no "lack of development" when youre on a shit load of gear.
how did you get your bitch tits then?
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how did you get your bitch tits then?
Right. When you post a pic of yourself bro, then we'll talk fat boy. We all know of your lard-assness.
here is my pic. Nice try fatty.
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Keep the pissing contest to a minimum guys, just argue your points. Valid points on both sides.
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the excuse you hear most often is that "you want to lower full a full stretch to hit the lower part of the muscle" which is a crock of shit, the muscle you're training either contracts fully or it doesn't contract no matter what "form" you use, this "full stretch" nonsense is just a myth like many others in the gym world.
The "full stretch" argument is related to the "working harder" one when it comes to full ROM and strict. Neither holds water in my opinion, been there done that. There's no basis that i can see for the claim that full ROM is any advantage, and it's not safer.
I don't get any shoulder in preachers from doing partials, it's completely on the bis. What you're talking about, rocking at the top is common and is a little bit of cheating on preachers that is effective, can be done with full or partial ROM.
If i do full ROM preachers it highly stresses the area around the top of the forearms/bottom of bis, which isn't what i want to hit anyway. I've strained that area by trying to stick with full ROM to the bottom, and by doing strict. Partials center the effect in the middle/belly of the muscle and are easier on the muscles, besides which if you believe in time under tension/constant tension on the muscle, full ROM isn't as good.
Same thing for squats, my best results were from box squats, not doing full ROM. Not just safer, more effective also.
I just hurt one of my lats from doing full ROM hammer pulldowns. When it's better i'll stay with 80% ROM that weren't causing problems.
If the elbow problem from doing curls was on the inside of the elbow, it's called golfer's elbow. It usually happens from either curls or lat work with certain grips-essentially without realizing it while using those pulling muscles you're also squeezing your elbows and arms together during the exercise, even though it's not obvious. Over time that creates the pain. If you try slight variations and change the form a little you can find something that will work and the pain will go away.
Found a local gym i like..sweet..people are serious, good looking trim, nice vibe, music..it's a winner. ;)
I read somewhere that a better stretch leads to better contraction, which certainly seems to be true for me on incline db curls, but I do think you're right about preachers since there isn't a great stretch on them anyways. Full stretch doesn't seem to be too important to Dennis James and Paul Demayo in these videos though. Dennis doesn't go very deep on his incline db presses and flyes and Paul doesn't get much stretch on any of the triceps exercises he does here. I'm gonna give it a shot, going deep on
overhead triceps exercises doesn't feel too great on the elbows.
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I`ve always done my curls with a slight cheat to get the weight started,then I do an extra slow negative.
My best lifts are 155-5 at a bodyweight of 155,and 135-10 at 165 pounds in pretty good form.
An old friend of mine would do 225 for 5 reps but on his 5th. rep he would practically be in the parking lot. LOL :)
Dude would do curls like they were reverse cleans...............spl itting under the weight and walking all over the gym with 225 on the bar.
He tried this shit at Girondas gym out in Cali on a trip in the late 70`s and Vince chased him out and told him never to return ! :)
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Guys, just letting you know that I've used the suggestions, and now use about 75% of the ROM on triceps exercises that I was using before. MUCH better feeling for my elbows, and the contraction and pump is just as good, probably even better.
Also let my elbows move out more naturally in the barbell curls. Did those Croc curls the other day and got an awesome pump, the constant fluid motion allowed me the most weight and reps I've ever done on bb curls.
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Guys, just letting you know that I've used the suggestions, and now use about 75% of the ROM on triceps exercises that I was using before. MUCH better feeling for my elbows, and the contraction and pump is just as good, probably even better.
Also let my elbows move out more naturally in the barbell curls. Did those Croc curls the other day and got an awesome pump, the constant fluid motion allowed me the most weight and reps I've ever done on bb curls.
Swwet