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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: 240 is Back on February 11, 2009, 04:42:56 PM
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Assuming caloric intake remains constant, and that he reaches 400 grams protein by lowering carbs and fat accordingly, what gains would he see? Any?
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probably more hardness.
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Explosive diarrhea and protein farts :)
being natural, your body doesn't have the required mechanism to proccess that much protein efficiently.
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Explosive diarrhea and protein farts :)
being natural, your body doesn't have the required mechanism to proccess that much protein efficiently.
This long term could possibly lead to colon cancer.
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This long term could possibly lead to colon cancer.
::) epic exaggeration.
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A lot of dark coloured piss.
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A lighter wallet.
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::) epic exaggeration.
Obstructive lesions -- colon or Rectal Cancers may present (i.e., reveal symptoms) as slowly worsening Diarrhea syndromes. Stools may be narrow and the abdomen bloated. The patient will likely feel constipated, due to the inability to evacuate.
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Explosive diarrhea and protein farts :)
being natural, your body doesn't have the required mechanism to proccess that much protein efficiently.
Malabsorption -- certain foods cannot be absorbed properly and are passed into the stool, resulting in Diarrhea in an attempt to excrete them. Symptoms include those of osmotic Diarrhea (since it acts like one), weight loss, and nutritional deficiencies. Causes include bacterial overgrowth, chronic pancreatitis (pancreas fails to produce the enzymes needed to breakdown food), previous intestinal resections (part of the intestine surgically removed), and lymphatic obstruction.
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Hey, best of luck to ya!
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Ask boonstack or whatever his name is.
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these dudes are 'tarded .... a natty or not your gonna digest and absorb all of that protein (well 98% on average).... and youll USE all the protien you eat too... no.. just cuz your 'using' protein doesnt mean yoru growin... thats where most guys get confused..
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A lighter wallet.
x2
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these dudes are 'tarded .... a natty or not your gonna digest and absorb all of that protein (well 98% on average).... and youll USE all the protien you eat too... no.. just cuz your 'using' protein doesnt mean yoru growin... thats where most guys get confused..
You might want to read some studies, most of the exogenous protein consumed (for a natural lifter at least) goes out in waste, puts strain on your kidneys and gets thrown out with everything else when you take a crap, for a natural maybe 50-60% of protein taken in is actually absorbed.
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You might want to read some studies, most of the exogenous protein consumed (for a natural lifter at least) goes out in waste, puts strain on your kidneys and gets thrown out with everything else when you take a crap, for a natural maybe 50-60% of protein taken in is actually absorbed.
protein absortion rate is 98% on average for all healthy human beings
none goes to waste
healthy individuals with healthy kidneys experience no damage at all to kidneys with high protein intake
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Assuming caloric intake remains constant, and that he reaches 400 grams protein by lowering carbs and fat accordingly, what gains would he see? Any?
No significant change in body composition if rate of weight change remains the same (rather than caloric intake).
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protein absortion rate is 98% on average for all healthy human beings
none goes to waste
healthy individuals with healthy kidneys experience no damage at all to kidneys with high protein intake
Yes, that's healthy males ingesting about 0.5-1g of protein per kilo of bodyweight, no 300-400g like some of the retards on here.
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very good insight, thanks
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protein absortion rate is 98% on average for all healthy human beings
none goes to waste
healthy individuals with healthy kidneys experience no damage at all to kidneys with high protein intake
exactly, "captain equipoise" is just spouting the same myths and garbage that people have been talking for years.
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A lighter wallet.
HAHHAHAHAH
I was thinkin the same thing first and foremost.
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Assuming caloric intake remains constant, and that he reaches 400 grams protein by lowering carbs and fat accordingly, what gains would he see? Any?
That’s too big off a jump. What will likely happen is that he’ll have a lot of tummy aches and feel rather sluggish. This guy should have gone from 250 to 300. Chances are he’ll see good results by sticking with that amount for a few months.
Just as it is with lifting weights, gradual increase in caloric intake (protein, carbs, or fats) makes for a better dietary strategy.
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protein absortion rate is 98% on average for all healthy human beings
none goes to waste
healthy individuals with healthy kidneys experience no damage at all to kidneys with high protein intake
Well, no. You can eat all protein you want, but the fact is that your body cannot store any of it, so your body utilize some of it and rest goes to waste. If you eat 100g of protein per meal, you use only 25 grams and 75 grams goes trough your system doing you nothing but harm. If you accelerate your metabolism by using gh or steroids, you can utilize more, but if you don't, you are only wasting your money by eating more than you should. It is very simple maths: your body weight in pounds / 2,2 x 1,8 to 2,5 grams of protein per day. For example 200lb natural builder = 90,9 kilos x 2,5 g = 230g of protein per day. If you eat more, you gain nothing but expenses and a possibility of health hazard because your system still have to deal with all that excess what you eat...
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Well, no. You can eat all protein you want, but the fact is that your body cannot store any of it, so your body utilize some of it and rest goes to waste. If you eat 100g of protein per meal, you use only 25 grams and 75 grams goes trough your system doing you nothing but harm. If you accelerate your metabolism by using gh or steroids, you can utilize more, but if you don't, you are only wasting your money by eating more than you should. It is very simple maths: your body weight in pounds / 2,2 x 1,8 to 2,5 grams of protein per day. For example 200lb natural builder = 90,9 kilos x 2,5 g = 230g of protein per day. If you eat more, you gain nothing but expenses and a possibility of health hazard because your system still have to deal with all that excess what you eat...
Show me a scientific research that concludes that high amounts of Protein are harmfully. Protein consumption will be maximazed in small doses during the day, providing constants supply of amino-acids. The consuption of 100g of Protein will certainty decrease its absorption, but so will ANY substance taking in excess. Small doses of 30g to 40g during the day are optimal.
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Show me a scientific research that concludes that high amounts of Protein are harmfully. Protein consumption will be maximazed in small doses during the day, providing constants supply of amino-acids. The consuption of 100g of Protein will certainty decrease its absorption, but so will ANY substance taking in excess. Small doses of 30g to 40g during the day are optimal.
Why are you asking me, when you have a google right under your nose? Try it, and you will find just those answers you like. If I do the search, you don't like what I find. You can try to figure that question out by thinking what happen to protein you eat. You seem to think that it goes right to your muscles and make them bigger, but that isn't all what is in to it. You body chop proteins to amino acids, which you can utilize in your system up to a certain amount. How about that extra amount of amino acids which you have eaten. Where that goes? Where those protein farts comes and what make them smell so bad, like you has been decomposed inside? Well, If we simplify the subject to the max and beyond, all the way at the point where it is simple enough for you to understand, that is just what has happen. Excessive protein goes bad in you digestion and it produce gas, ammonia etc. in your system, and only history will prove what will be long term effect to all that, because there isn't any study about teen nerds who has too high protein intake. You guys always miss the big picture: It isn't just smoke, booze, pollution, yellow snow or excessive protein, but all that shit together in your system. What ever you eat today, will probably kill you 10 years from now, so if you want to live to see your first pubic hair, you must be very careful.
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I went from 150 to 300 daily grams in the last 3 days. holy crap, i'm hard all over. Lots of chicken breasts and apples. I'm feeling like a well oiled machines. No mcd either.
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I went from 150 to 300 daily grams in the last 3 days. holy crap, i'm hard all over. Lots of chicken breasts and apples. I'm feeling like a well oiled machines. No mcd either.
Pictures or it didnt happen.... ;D
ps: you know what....scarp the picture part.. :-\
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Pictures or it didnt happen.... ;D
chest definition definitely coming out a bit more, no?
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Thats a great shot man...you are definitely improving... ;D
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Assuming caloric intake remains constant, and that he reaches 400 grams protein by lowering carbs and fat accordingly, what gains would he see? Any?
None. He will actually lose weight. Protein is metabolically more costly than carbs, so if you ingest the same amount of calories but switch from getting most of it from carbs to getting most of it fom protein, then you will lose muscle and fat as the total amount of usable calories available to your body decreases. Also, most of the protein wil be turned in the liver to glucose by gluconeogenesis anyway, since the body can use only so much protein for maintaining nitrogen balance. Also, the amount of urea, uric acid, sulphones and other toxic by-products of protein metabolization will increase, thus decreasing overall health. What this guy is doing is both counterproductive and dangerous.
SUCKYMYUSCLE
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Why are you asking me, when you have a google right under your nose? Try it, and you will find just those answers you like. If I do the search, you don't like what I find. You can try to figure that question out by thinking what happen to protein you eat. You seem to think that it goes right to your muscles and make them bigger, but that isn't all what is in to it. You body chop proteins to amino acids, which you can utilize in your system up to a certain amount. How about that extra amount of amino acids which you have eaten. Where that goes? Where those protein farts comes and what make them smell so bad, like you has been decomposed inside? Well, If we simplify the subject to the max and beyond, all the way at the point where it is simple enough for you to understand, that is just what has happen. Excessive protein goes bad in you digestion and it produce gas, ammonia etc. in your system, and only history will prove what will be long term effect to all that, because there isn't any study about teen nerds who has too high protein intake. You guys always miss the big picture: It isn't just smoke, booze, pollution, yellow snow or excessive protein, but all that shit together in your system. What ever you eat today, will probably kill you 10 years from now, so if you want to live to see your first pubic hair, you must be very careful.
Again ...you obviously have no scientific background to make such uninformed statements base only in rumors ...please look at what you just said "Where those protein farts comes and what make them smell so bad, like you has been decomposed inside?" what is the biochemical association with gas and protein long term side effects?. Again is absolutely no Scientific data that concludes High amounts of Protein to deterioration of internal organs as you absurdly state. It is plenty of data that link high amounts of Carbs to heart disease,diabetes, strokes etc...It is sad how ill informed you are regarding the basics of nutrition. As I stated anything taking in execs is harmfull and that includes water in which compose over 75% of our base structure. But in base of your statement we should stop eating as eating itself causes oxidation and aging. ::)
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healthy individuals with healthy kidneys experience no damage at all to kidneys with high protein intake
What about the chronic effect of high protein consumption? Are you going to tell me that eating 500 grams of protein a day, day after day, for several years will have no negative effect on your kidneys? Get real. Even a Neanderthal caveman wouldn't eat 500 grams of protein a day, every day, for his entire life. Ths is nuts. He would eat 500 grams or maybe even 1,000 grams in one sitting when he would kill a mammoth or such, but then he would starve for the next week or so before eating again.
The Human body was not designed to process huge amounts of protein consistently. We are primarilly frugivores and leaf eaters physiologically, and we only started to eat meat in the past 40,000 years or so when we went out of Africa to Eurasia where plant foods were rare and we had to become hunters to survive. Look at a Human's dental composition, amount of available pepsin and the lengh of our gastro-intestinal tract and it's obvious that we are not even designed to eat meat, let alone pounds a day, every day, for decades.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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None. He will actually lose weight. Protein is metabolically more costly than carbs, so if you ingest the same amount of calories but switch from getting most of it from carbs to getting most of it form protein, then you will lose muscle and fat as the total amount of usable calories available to your body decreases. Also, most of the protein Will be turned in the liver to glucose by gluconeogenesis anyway, since the body can use only so much protein for maintaining nitrogen balance. Also, the amount of urea, uric acid, sulphones and other toxic by-products of protein metabolization will increase, thus decreasing overall health. What this guy is doing is both counterproductive and dangerous.
SUCKYMYUSCLE
I must disagree with you. Even though is a speculation in the Medical Community regarding the byproducts of Protein as you mention is no scientific data in any Medical our nutritional journal that concludes its harmfully effects, studies ESPECULATE that high amounts of protein MAY be harmfully to your liver due to byproduct formation and over-Enzimatic stimulation. It is thousand and thousand of studies the directly link high amounts of carbs to critical heath problems. Bottom line you have Essential amino-acids and Essential Fats...Have you heard of Essential Carbs???...
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High protein diets are bad, leading to ketosis.
1: Eur J Clin Nutr. 2007 May;61(5):575-81. Epub 2006 Nov 29.Click here to read Links
Low-carbohydrate-high-protein diet and long-term survival in a general population cohort.
Trichopoulou A, Psaltopoulou T, Orfanos P, Hsieh CC, Trichopoulos D.
Department of Hygiene and Epidemiology, School of Medicine, University of Athens, Athens, Greece. antonia@nut.uoa.gr
OBJECTIVE: We have evaluated the effects on mortality of habitual low carbohydrate-high-protein diets that are thought to contribute to weight control. DESIGN: Cohort investigation. SETTING: Adult Greek population. SUBJECTS METHODS: Follow-up was performed from 1993 to 2003 in the context of the Greek component of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and nutrition. Participants were 22 944 healthy adults, whose diet was assessed through a validated questionnaire. Participants were distributed by increasing deciles according to protein intake or carbohydrate intake, as well as by an additive score generated by increasing decile intake of protein and decreasing decile intake of carbohydrates. Proportional hazards regression was used to assess the relation between high protein, high carbohydrate and the low carbohydrate-high protein score on the one hand and mortality on the other. RESULTS: During 113 230 persons years of follow-up, there were 455 deaths. In models with energy adjustment, higher intake of carbohydrates was associated with significant reduction of total mortality, whereas higher intake of protein was associated with nonsignificant increase of total mortality (per decile, mortality ratios 0.94 with 95% CI 0.89 -0.99, and 1.02 with 95% CI 0.98 -1.07 respectively). Even more predictive of higher mortality were high values of the additive low carbohydrate-high protein score (per 5 units, mortality ratio 1.22 with 95% CI 1.09 -to 1.36). Positive associations of this score were noted with respect to both cardiovascular and cancer mortality. CONCLUSION: Prolonged consumption of diets low in carbohydrates and high in protein is associated with an increase in total mortality.
Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Apr;16(2):129-52.
Related Articles, Links
A review of issues of dietary protein intake in humans.
Bilsborough S, Mann N.
B Personal Pty Ltd., Melbourne, Victoria 3001, Australia.
Considerable debate has taken place over the safety and validity of increased protein intakes for both weight control and muscle synthesis. The advice to consume diets high in protein by some health professionals, media and popular diet books is given despite a lack of scientific data on the safety of increasing protein consumption. The key issues are the rate at which the gastrointestinal tract can absorb amino acids from dietary proteins (1.3 to 10 g/h) and the liver's capacity to deaminate proteins and produce urea for excretion of excess nitrogen. The accepted level of protein requirement of 0.8g x kg(-1) x d(-1) is based on structural requirements and ignores the use of protein for energy metabolism. High protein diets on the other hand advocate excessive levels of protein intake on the order of 200 to 400 g/d, which can equate to levels of approximately 5 g x kg(-1) x d(-1), which may exceed the liver's capacity to convert excess nitrogen to urea. Dangers of excessive protein, defined as when protein constitutes > 35% of total energy intake, include hyperaminoacidemia, hyperammonemia, hyperinsulinemia nausea, diarrhea, and even death (the "rabbit starvation syndrome"). The three different measures of defining protein intake, which should be viewed together are: absolute intake (g/d), intake related to body weight (g x kg(-1) x d(-1)) and intake as a fraction of total energy (percent energy). A suggested maximum protein intake based on bodily needs, weight control evidence, and avoiding protein toxicity would be approximately of 25% of energy requirements at approximately 2 to 2.5 g x kg(-1) x d(-1), corresponding to 176 g protein per day for an 80 kg individual on a 12,000kJ/d diet. This is well below the theoretical maximum safe intake range for an 80 kg person (285 to 365 g/d).
A few studies, enjoy!
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400g is total over kill. One gram per lb of body weight is a good rule of thumb. Higher of your cutting and reducing your carbs. Expect more time on the shitter and more rock hard nuggets!
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Assuming caloric intake remains constant, and that he reaches 400 grams protein by lowering carbs and fat accordingly, what gains would he see? Any?
weight would not change at all, but there would a repartitioning effect in favour of some muscle replacing of some fat.
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"which may exceed the liver's capacity to convert excess nitrogen to urea."
If you read my post, I made it clear that some studies SPECULATE harmfully effects. I hope you are not using this as scientific data. You may soon run out of food that you can eat. It is EVIDENCE that high consuption of Carbs and Saturated fat to direct links to Heart Disease and other chronic Diseases.
I believe that the majority of the Medical community is in agreement in terms of the obesity, diabetes, heart disease epidemic this country finds itself is due to high consuption of carbs and saturated fats not Protein...
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1 gram per pound of bodyweight is plenty. I have tried many different amounts, taking in more makes you more sluggish (because it's not all being digested) and you don't gain anymore muscle. It would hinder it IMO.
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What about the chronic effect of high protein consumption? Are you going to tell me that eating 500 grams of protein a day, day after day, for several years will have no negative effect on your kidneys? Get real. Even a Neanderthal caveman wouldn't eat 500 grams of protein a day, every day, for his entire life. Ths is nuts. He would eat 500 grams or maybe even 1,000 grams in one sitting when he would kill a mammoth or such, but then he would starve for the next week or so before eating again.
The Human body was not designed to process huge amounts of protein consistently. We are primarilly frugivores and leaf eaters physiologically, and we only started to eat meat in the past 40,000 years or so when we went out of Africa to Eurasia where plant foods were rare and we had to become hunters to survive. Look at a Human's dental composition, amount of available pepsin and the lengh of our gastro-intestinal tract and it's obvious that we are not even designed to eat meat, let alone pounds a day, every day, for decades.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Going back that far, humans would store more bodyfat because of the scarsity of food, and not knowing when their next meal was coming. Nowadays while eating smaller meals more often (or so we should), bodyfat shouldn't be an issue. But people are lazy slobs.
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"which may exceed the liver's capacity to convert excess nitrogen to urea."
If you read my post, I made it clear that some studies SPECULATE harmfully effects. I hope you are not using this as scientific data. You may soon run out of food that you can eat. It is EVIDENCE that high consuption of Carbs and Saturated fat to direct links to Heart Disease and other chronic Diseases.
I believe that the majority of the Medical community is in agreement in terms of the obesity, diabetes, heart disease epidemic this country finds itself is due to high consuption of carbs and saturated fats not Protein...
You conveniently choose to inore the large N cohort study above?
You are now suggesting that I'm saying that we shouldn't eat protein.....
I'm saying that anything over say 2,5-3 g/kg protein is a waste of money and can be a potential health issue.
Let me put this straight, I'm not advocating overconsumption of carbs, that's a whole different issue!
regardless of the dangers of large quantities of carbs, there are risks correlated with high protein diets. Rabbit disease is the extreme end of the spectrum, but illustrates the effect nicely.
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The only thing he would get from a extra 150 grams of protein a day is less money in his wallet.
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ABout protein. More is better.
Dont complicate that much.
We must discuss more about carbs intake instead.
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240,
It's hard to say because everyone responds differently. I always increase everything else along with protein. Maybe I'll try going apeshit with chicken breasts and tuna for a while along with pasta.
I doubt 2grams/kg pose a significant health risk to people that don't have some pre-existing metabolic stuff going on.
A lot of people feel you'd get better long term gains with the protein coming from whole foods. Others would say the shakes are more bioavailable.
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A lot of people feel you'd get better long term gains with the protein coming from whole foods. Others would say the shakes are more bioavailable.
depends on how you use the shakes.
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depends on how you use the shakes.
Protein powder is really easy and relatively cheap but I'm semi-convinced that a huge part of the benefit is in keeping you hydrated. The guys I've seen look better, longer and look consistently good tended to get most of their protein, carbs and fat from whole foods. It's possible, in a twisted sort of way, that whey protein is too bioavailable. We're one of the few animals that consumes milk after being weaned. Having the body take a little longer to break things down might be less work for the liver and may balance nitrogen at a more even rate.
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Protein powder is really easy and relatively cheap but I'm semi-convinced that a huge part of the benefit is in keeping you hydrated. The guys I've seen look better, longer and look consistently good tended to get most of their protein, carbs and fat from whole foods. It's possible, in a twisted sort of way, that whey protein is too bioavailable. We're one of the few animals that consumes milk after being weaned. Having the body take a little longer to break things down might be less work for the liver and may balance nitrogen at a more even rate.
you are correct. studies show that much of whey is metabolised when drank, while casein is not - this is due to the rapid cascade of aa entering the blood stream.
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its been shown several times that gram for gram whey leads to more nitrogen retention.
the key would be to use the smallest possible amount to maximally stimulate protein synthesis, and repeat this over and over again throughout the day at the earliest possible time one could re stimulate protein synthesis.
the reason i say one would want to keep the smallest possble amount is because of recent study which showed whey protein increases myostatin activity= the more you drink the more mysotatin begins to regulate growth (myostatin limits the rate of muscle growth)... so you want to use the smallest possible amount to get maximal stimulation of protein synthesis because the more whey protein you take, the more myostatin activity youll get. which means once youve reached the point of maximal synthesis stimulation, adding more whey beyond this actually has a counterproductive effect (through myostatin activity)
not sure how this applies, if it does at all, to meat proteins.
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I'm gonna do a drastic diet thing and see what happens. Have to figure out what eating 300 g protein would look like.
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Why do people think protein is the be all and end all of bodybuilding? Why can't "bodybuilders" just eat a well balanced diet and perhaps eat just a little more protein than that of a normal person? I'll tell you why, because it's the childish mentality that more is better. I'm sure I've read up somewhere that excess levels of protein can lower testosterone, although you may want to check that out for yourself. I always look at it from this perspective for naturals; if scientists and nutritional experts recommend say between 60 and 70 grams of protein a day for an average male with normal activity levels, why would weight training require the body to acquire three, four, five, hell even six and seven times that amount?! I could understand doubling that number and in some cases tripling that, but 400 grams? Crazy.
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Why do people think protein is the be all and end all of bodybuilding? Why can't "bodybuilders" just eat a well balanced diet and perhaps eat just a little more protein than that of a normal person? I'll tell you why, because it's the childish mentality that more is better. I'm sure I've read up somewhere that excess levels of protein can lower testosterone, although you may want to check that out for yourself. I always look at it from this perspective for naturals; if scientists and nutritional experts recommend say between 60 and 70 grams of protein a day for an average male with normal activity levels, why would weight training require the body to acquire three, four, five, hell even six and seven times that amount?! I could understand doubling that number and in some cases tripling that, but 400 grams? Crazy.
That suggestion is probably based upon a 70K man. Just looked on a low carb diet site and the suggestion was 74g protein for a 200Lb man.
1.5g/Kg is probably what most 'experts' would suggest but I sort of doubt hard gainers are lacking in protein only.
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i'm stronger and haven't lost an ounce of size, even though I haven't lifted since last friday. (I went to doc on monday for hurt shoulder, got a week of heat, rest, and advil)
unfortunately it's a little hard to drop a deuce today :(
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Why do people think protein is the be all and end all of bodybuilding? Why can't "bodybuilders" just eat a well balanced diet and perhaps eat just a little more protein than that of a normal person? I'll tell you why, because it's the childish mentality that more is better. I'm sure I've read up somewhere that excess levels of protein can lower testosterone, although you may want to check that out for yourself. I always look at it from this perspective for naturals; if scientists and nutritional experts recommend say between 60 and 70 grams of protein a day for an average male with normal activity levels, why would weight training require the body to acquire three, four, five, hell even six and seven times that amount?! I could understand doubling that number and in some cases tripling that, but 400 grams? Crazy.
To answer your question in a simplistic way. Protein is fundamental for muscle repair (internal organs included), nerve system and immune system support. Fats are essential for hormonal production, vitamin and mineral absorption and cell membrane formation. Carbs are the Primary source of energy of the body, but not Essential as the body is able to produce glucose. It is logical that if the objective is to increase muscle mass, you will significantly increase protein consuption as amino-acids are directly responsable for such process. The FDA determination for daily Protein intake is a minimun requirement for individuals to maintain their general heath, not individuals trying to significantly increase muscle mass. The FDA determination is extremely controversial now as you may find several new dietary pyramids propose by the Medical Community.
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i'm stronger and haven't lost an ounce of size, even though I haven't lifted since last friday. (I went to doc on monday for hurt shoulder, got a week of heat, rest, and advil)
unfortunately it's a little hard to drop a deuce today :(
:o
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:o
she told me 600 mg per day, twice a day.
i've been doing 1 of the 200mg in the morning, and another at night, some nights. so 400 mg maximum.
believe me, if i've learned anything from my 30k posts here, its that AAS doesn't kill people - ADVIL DOES!
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I'm gonna do a drastic diet thing and see what happens. Have to figure out what eating 300 g protein would look like.
Hey, I might do the drastic diet thing too just to prove a point.
My thoughts:
If you are trying to gain size, it's at least 2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight. Done, enough said & no other way around it.
To maintain, it's at 1-1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight.
IMO, there is no such thing as too much protein.
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Hey, I might do the drastic diet thing too just to prove a point.
My thoughts:
If you are trying to gain size, it's at least 2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight. Done, enough said & no other way around it.
To maintain, it's at 1-1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight.
IMO, there is no such thing as too much protein.
So then why not eat 4 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. Why not 10?
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Protein consumption will be maximazed in small doses during the day, providing constants supply of amino-acids. The consuption of 100g of Protein will certainty decrease its absorption, but so will ANY substance taking in excess. Small doses of 30g to 40g during the day are optimal.
Not necessarily. Larger boluses less frequently increase protein synthesis rates. Smaller, more frequent boluses increase PS less but it's elevated more constantly. So in the end it probably doesn't matter hugely whether you eat 3-4 or 6-7 meals for example.
It is plenty of data that link high amounts of Carbs to heart disease,diabetes, strokes etc...It is sad how ill informed you are regarding the basics of nutrition.
What do you mean by "high amounts of carbs"? I think it's more correct to say eating in excess in general, leading to obesity, is what leads to diabetes etc. Not "high" carbs per se. If high carb intake was harmful Milos' methods would be very detrimental to health right? and we should all go on a ketogenic diet. Overconsumption of protein causes insulin resistance as well. *
EVIL ANGEL, what is your recommendation as far as protein intake? How many grams per pound? And if you can could you explain how you arrived at the figure.
*Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2006 Jul;9(4):463-8. Links
Effects of dietary protein on glucose homeostasis.
Promintzer M, Krebs M.
Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine III, Medical University of Vienna, Vienna, Austria.
PURPOSE OF REVIEW: Despite the proven efficacy of the established high-carbohydrate diets for treatment and prevention of obesity and type 2 diabetes, alternative diets including high-protein, high-fat, low-carbohydrate diets have become increasingly popular. The purpose of this review is to discuss potential effects of increased protein intake on glucose metabolism and body weight. RECENT FINDINGS: Recent intervention trials revealed that, in the short-term, the intake of proteins at the expense of carbohydrates increases satiety and thereby lowers intake of calories. High protein intake augments prandial insulin secretion and might thereby improve glycaemic control in type 2 diabetic patients. On the other hand, epidemiological studies suggest that chronic high dietary protein intake is associated with increased incidence of type 2 diabetes. Furthermore, a short-term increase in plasma amino acid concentrations has been shown to directly induce insulin resistance in skeletal muscle and stimulate endogenous glucose production. SUMMARY: Dietary proteins and amino acids are potent modulators of glucose metabolism and might also affect satiety and energy intake. However, due to the lack of well-controlled long-term studies the optimal macronutrient composition for treatment and prevention of obesity and type 2 diabetes is not known.
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Hey, I might do the drastic diet thing too just to prove a point.
My thoughts:
If you are trying to gain size, it's at least 2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight. Done, enough said & no other way around it.
To maintain, it's at 1-1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight.
IMO, there is no such thing as too much protein.
They also used to say that smoking menthol cigarettes was good for colds and coughs back in the 20's. There is defiantly such a think as to much protein. Extreme amounts of anything is harmful. Do you take steriods?
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Here's the problem. Most of the anatomy and physiology books based upon a 70Kg male and don't account for bodybuilding as an activity. All you can do is look at what's worked for years and 2 grams/Kg seems to help people build muscle.
People probably should crack open a basic book instead of arguing back and forth over this on-line.
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I think most people are scared to lower their protein. Most people would be suprised to learn how little protein they need to maintain AND gain at.
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I think most people are scared to lower their protein. Most people would be suprised to learn how little protein they need to maintain AND gain at.
no they wouldn't, low protein and low calories = muscle loss
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no they wouldn't, low protein and low calories = muscle loss
Define low? Personally I can diet, maintain and gain and never go over a gram per pound of bodyweight.
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Define low? Personally I can diet, maintain and gain and never go over a gram per pound of bodyweight.
a gram per pound is the currently accepted recomendation - so in fact you are not on low protein at all - thats why you can diet, maintain and gain ;)
to me low is .5g per lbs
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no they wouldn't, low protein and low calories = muscle loss
exactly.
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Assuming caloric intake remains constant, and that he reaches 400 grams protein by lowering carbs and fat accordingly, what gains would he see? Any?
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a gram per pound is the currently accepted recomendation - so in fact you are not on low protein at all - thats why you can diet, maintain and gain ;)
to me low is .5g per lbs
Oh okay dude. It's just that a lot of people in this thread are acting like a gram per pound is starvation!
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Hahah I like how he's got his hands on his hips like nothing's happened!
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(http://s5.tinypic.com/23wl6za.jpg)
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400-500 grams of protein, lol. When I was being trained by a national level competitor for football when I was in college he told me the same shit (dudes in jail now....biggest waste of money ever). I noticed no difference with my physique when ingesting 400 grams vs 200 grams of protein. What I did notice was less stomach aches and I was not shitting every ten minutes.
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id love to see pics of some of the monsters eating less then 200g per day........ i would bet good money that they all look like average everyday people, maybe defined if they actualy do train at all......
why be on a bodybuilding site if u dont want to build your body, best thing about the sport is the eating for fucks sake!
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id love to see pics of some of the monsters eating less then 200g per day........ i would bet good money that they all look like average everyday people, maybe defined if they actualy do train at all......
why be on a bodybuilding site if u dont want to build your body, best thing about the sport is the eating for fucks sake!
Are you saying that 200 grams of protein is not enough to build muscle for a 200 lb man at 10% bf. Lets see your picture big guy. I bet you are huge and ripped ::)
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sorry to dissapoint u bud but i am........ i competed as a jnr at just over 200lbs,, and it took alot more than 200g to get there....
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Not necessarily. Larger boluses less frequently increase protein synthesis rates. Smaller, more frequent boluses increase PS less but it's elevated more constantly. So in the end it probably doesn't matter hugely whether you eat 3-4 or 6-7 meals for example.
What do you mean by "high amounts of carbs"? I think it's more correct to say eating in excess in general, leading to obesity, is what leads to diabetes etc. Not "high" carbs per se. If high carb intake was harmful Milos' methods would be very detrimental to health right? and we should all go on a ketogenic diet. Overconsumption of protein causes insulin resistance as well. *
EVIL ANGEL, what is your recommendation as far as protein intake? How many grams per pound? And if you can could you explain how you arrived at the figure.
*
High Consuption of Carbs is associate to diabetes as sugar will spike insulin, Protein and Fats have no comparable effect in insulin release, constant inspike in insulin and carbs easier metabolic conversion into fat is directly responsable for obesity and link in several studies to diabetes. Fructose and fructose corn syrup seem to have an even more acute insulin response what seems to indicate a higher risk of diabetes.
In terms of recommended Protein consuption is not a clear answer that seems to indicated the optimal amount. The recommendations seem to diverte dramatically. But if you make a distribution of your macronutrients using a caloric intake of 3000 cal. And using your primary objective to reduce body fat and increase muscle mass. You will logically limit energy supplies (carbs) and secondary supplie fat. We the intend to decrease muscle degradation and increase regeneration it seems biochemically logical to increase protein intake. Now looking at these conditions you will necessary have to have a elevated amount of protein on your daily intake.
Obs1- Milos recommends the use of insulin what obviously allow higher carb consumption, The use of insulin will eventually lead to its dependence.
Obs2- Stomach problems associate to high protein intake is MOST often associate to exaggerated use of protein supplementation not food. As always the weekend warriors try to get the majority of their protein form shakes instead of food. The use of the Protein shake is to SUPPLEMENT the food not take it over. You must consume 3/4 of your daily Protein intake from food not Protein shakes.
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Hahah I like how he's got his hands on his hips like nothing's happened!
just playing it cool.
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no they wouldn't, low protein and low calories = muscle loss
I totally agree with Fatpanda. Do I need a scientific explanation for this? Nope, it's all about experience. ::)
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Obs1- Milos recommends the use of insulin what obviously allow higher carb consumption, The use of insulin will eventually lead to its dependence.
Aren't you a team Milos athlete or am I thinking of someone else? So you think insulin use like this will cause diabetes eventually?
Fructose and fructose corn syrup seem to have an even more acute insulin response what seems to indicate a higher risk of diabetes.
I don't think fructose spikes insulin even more than glucose for example. Do you have data to support this? The problem with very LARGE intakes of fructose is the metabolic pathways it takes and how it's converted to fat "easily". But even here, it's really not fructose itself that's dangerous but overconsumption of it and calories in general. Did you see the recent news about the fructose hysteria?
Although much fuss has been raised about high-fructose corn syrup, when it comes to calories and weight gain, it makes no difference if the sweetener was derived from corn, sugar cane, beets or fruit juice concentrate. All contain a combination of fructose and glucose and, gram for gram, supply the same number of calories. All contribute to the excessive caloric intake that has resulted in an epidemic of obesity among Americans in the last 25 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/health/nutrition/10brod.html?_r=1&em
White JS. Straight talk about high-fructose corn syrup: what it is and what it ain’t. Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec;88(6):1716S-1721S.
Abstract
High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is a fructose-glucose liquid sweetener alternative to sucrose (common table sugar) first introduced to the food and beverage industry in the 1970s. It is not meaningfully different in composition or metabolism from other fructose-glucose sweeteners like sucrose, honey, and fruit juice concentrates. HFCS was widely embraced by food formulators, and its use grew between the mid-1970s and mid-1990s, principally as a replacement for sucrose. This was primarily because of its sweetness comparable with that of sucrose, improved stability and functionality, and ease of use. Although HFCS use today is nearly equivalent to sucrose use in the United States, we live in a decidedly sucrose-sweetened world: >90% of the nutritive sweetener used worldwide is sucrose. Here I review the history, composition, availability, and characteristics of HFCS in a factual manner to clarify common misunderstandings that have been a source of confusion to health professionals and the general public alike. In particular, I evaluate the strength of the popular hypothesis that HFCS is uniquely responsible for obesity. Although examples of pure fructose causing metabolic upset at high concentrations abound, especially when fed as the sole carbohydrate source, there is no evidence that the common fructose-glucose sweeteners do the same. Thus, studies using extreme carbohydrate diets may be useful for probing biochemical pathways, but they have no relevance to the human diet or to current consumption. I conclude that the HFCS-obesity hypothesis is supported neither in the United States nor worldwide.
So I don't agree with you about cabrs spiking insulin being the cause of obesity. It's the increase in calories primarily. You can get ripped as hell eating only very high glycemic carbs so obviously high GI isn't what makes you fat.
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Aren't you a team Milos athlete or am I thinking of someone else? So you think insulin use like this will cause diabetes eventually?
I don't think fructose spikes insulin even more than glucose for example. Do you have data to support this? The problem with very LARGE intakes of fructose is the metabolic pathways it takes and how it's converted to fat "easily". But even here, it's really not fructose itself that's dangerous but overconsumption of it and calories in general. Did you see the recent news about the fructose hysteria?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/health/nutrition/10brod.html?_r=1&em
So I don't agree with you about cabrs spiking insulin being the cause of obesity. It's the increase in calories primarily. You can get ripped as hell eating only very high glycemic carbs so obviously high GI isn't what makes you fat.
van you are 100% correct. insulin does not make you fat excess calories do.
if you eat 2000cals below maintenance you will lose weight, regardless if you eat fructose, sucrose, lactose, protein, or fats. study after study backs the fact that calories are what counts in regards to weight loss or gain.
protein = muscle
carbs/fats = energy ( stored glycogen/bodyfat)
if you reduce calories via a reduction in protein you will lose primarily muscle.
if you reduce calories via a reduction in carbs or fats or a combination you will lose primarily bodyfat.
obviously there are other factors that skew the perfection of this simple explanation such as, natural test levels, activity levels, amount of calorie reduction, thyroid levels, survival mechanisms, etc but the science backs what i'm saying 100%.
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Assuming caloric intake remains constant, and that he reaches 400 grams protein by lowering carbs and fat accordingly, what gains would he see? Any?
topic name is good onion headline
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Aren't you a team Milos athlete or am I thinking of someone else? So you think insulin use like this will cause diabetes eventually?
I don't think fructose spikes insulin even more than glucose for example. Do you have data to support this? The problem with very LARGE intakes of fructose is the metabolic pathways it takes and how it's converted to fat "easily". But even here, it's really not fructose itself that's dangerous but overconsumption of it and calories in general. Did you see the recent news about the fructose hysteria?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/health/nutrition/10brod.html?_r=1&em
So I don't agree with you about cabrs spiking insulin being the cause of obesity. It's the increase in calories primarily. You can get ripped as hell eating only very high glycemic carbs so obviously high GI isn't what makes you fat.
I do not work with Milos Sarcev, I believe him to be very,very knowledgeable even though I disagree with some of his view regarding nutrition. I have a Background in Molecular Biology. I work with Hany Rambod as I strongly support his approach to Diet and Exercise.
In the past, fructose was considered beneficial to diabetics because it is absorbed only 40 percent as quickly as glucose and causes only a modest rise in blood sugar. However, research on other hormonal factors suggests that fructose actually promotes disease more readily than glucose. Glucose is metabolized in every cell in the body but all fructose must be metabolized in the liver. The livers of test animals fed large amounts of fructose develop fatty deposits and cirrhosis, similar to problems that develop in the livers of alcoholics.
Pure fructose contains no enzymes, vitamins or minerals and robs the body of its micronutrient treasures in order to assimilate itself for physiological use. While naturally occurring sugars, as well as sucrose, contain fructose bound to other sugars, high fructose corn syrup contains a good deal of "free" or unbound fructose. Research indicates that this free fructose interferes with the heart’s use of key minerals like magnesium, copper and chromium. Among other consequences, HFCS has been implicated in elevated blood cholesterol levels and the creation of blood clots. It has been found to inhibit the action of white blood cells so that they are unable to defend the body against harmful foreign invaders.
Studies on the Maillard reaction indicate that fructose may contribute to diabetic complications more readily than glucose. The Maillard reaction is a browning reaction that occurs when compounds are exposed to various sugars. Fructose browns food seven times faster than glucose, resulting in a decrease in protein quality and a toxicity of protein in the body. This is due to the loss of amino acid residues and decreased protein digestibility. Maillard products can inhibit the uptake and metabolism of free amino acids and other nutrients such as zinc, and some advanced Maillard products have mutagenic and/or carcinogenic properties. The Maillard reactions between proteins and fructose, glucose, and other sugars may play a role in aging and in some clinical complications of diabetes.
Fructose reduces the affinity of insulin for its receptor, which is the hallmark of type-2 diabetes. This is the first step for glucose to enter a cell and be metabolized. As a result, the body needs to pump out more insulin to handle the same amount of glucose.
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Why don't people believe exogenous insulin use will have a long term effect on insulin resistance?
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Why don't people believe exogenous insulin use will have a long term effect on insulin resistance?
More than consuming the same amount of carbs without the exogenous insulin you mean?
I do not work with Milos Sarcev, I believe him to be very,very knowledgeable even though I disagree with some of his view regarding nutrition. I have a Background in Molecular Biology. I work with Hany Rambod as I strongly support his approach to Diet and Exercise.
Alright.
As far as the rest of your post it's usually good etiquette to reference what you're cutting and pasting. ;)
http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html#author
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More than consuming the same amount of carbs without the exogenous insulin you mean?
Alright.
As far as the rest of your post it's usually good etiquette to reference what you're cutting and pasting. ;)
http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html#author
Sorry, I thought I had copy some of the references in the end.
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Sorry, I thought I had copy some of the references in the end.
No I mean you didn't write that article you pasted, right? It wasn't "your words". That kind of thing looks bad when pasted into a post as if you just wrote it up like that. :)
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No I mean you didn't write that article you pasted, right? It wasn't "your words". That kind of thing looks bad when pasted into a post as if you just wrote it up like that. :)
That is what I meant, I should have posted the references to the article.
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Why don't people believe exogenous insulin use will have a long term effect on insulin resistance?
I would have to believe that taking exogenous insulin over extended periods of time, would cause the pancreas to eventually shut down it's normal production to some degree, much in the way testoterones and thyroid hormones also cause a decrease in the production of those hormones. I don't know for sure and would need to see studies for proof, but it seems logical. However, if a non diabetic is willing to take insulin "to make their muscles bigger" and then try to time glucose or carb ingestions, so they don't lapse into a hypoglycemic coma, obviously health isn't a big priority to them. So to answer your question, I don't think they really care about future insulin resistance. Hell, Milos said it's ok, so that should be good enough. LOL
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sorry to dissapoint u bud but i am........ i competed as a jnr at just over 200lbs,, and it took alot more than 200g to get there....
Right, but you are on juice. A natural human will not process 400 grams of protein per day ::) Unless you are 6'5 that well over 200lbs of lean muscle tissue. Post some pictures so we can take a look at what 400 grams can do.
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I totally agree with Fatpanda. Do I need a scientific explanation for this? Nope, it's all about experience. ::)
We can assume that you are speaking to those who use steriods, correct?
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I would have to believe that taking exogenous insulin over extended periods of time, would cause the pancreas to eventually shut down it's normal production to some degree, much in the way testoterones and thyroid hormones also cause a decrease in the production of those hormones. I don't know for sure and would need to see studies for proof, but it seems logical. However, if a non diabetic is willing to take insulin "to make their muscles bigger" and then try to time glucose or carb ingestions, so they don't lapse into a hypoglycemic coma, obviously health isn't a big priority to them. So to answer your question, I don't think they really care about future insulin resistance. Hell, Milos said it's ok, so that should be good enough. LOL
I doubt taking insulin can be anything but bad for long term health.
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id love to see pics of some of the monsters eating less then 200g per day........ i would bet good money that they all look like average everyday people, maybe defined if they actualy do train at all......
why be on a bodybuilding site if u dont want to build your body, best thing about the sport is the eating for fucks sake!
i eat around 150-180g max a day. I am 231lbs. By no means a monster but it has done me no harm
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No I mean you didn't write that article you pasted, right? It wasn't "your words". That kind of thing looks bad when pasted into a post as if you just wrote it up like that. :)
hahahahahahahahaha owned !
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i used to do 400-600 grams a day didnt do shit
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i used to do 400-600 grams a day didnt do shit
and you couldn't shite daily either I bet...
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and you couldn't shite daily either I bet...
i still shitted cause i was eating other food also but it didnt do anything with all that protien
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i used to do 400-600 grams a day didnt do shit
Well it added calories to the diet.
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We can assume that you are speaking to those who use steriods, correct?
Not at all. I am just offering my opinion to the everyday bodybuilder. Try it (high protein that is), you might like it. For most ppl, it works.