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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Dos Equis on February 14, 2009, 04:46:32 PM
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I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who has a gay son. We worked together years ago and back then we had many discussions about him, society's response, our respective personal views, etc. She had the single biggest impact on me and how I view the issue. Every time we talked about her son more than ten years ago she would start crying. We had lunch the other day and she started crying again when we were catching up on each other's families.
The great thing about she and I is we both know precisely where we stand and we both respect each other. She loves her son (as she should) and has joined support groups to help other parents in her situation. Her father was a very well known figure and produced lots of sons and grandsons who have been very successful. That made her son's lifestyle that much harder for both of them to deal with.
As a Christian, I think we have an obligation to embrace everyone, regardless of their lifestyle choices. I don't have a problem accepting someone without accepting their lifestyle choices.
But what should the "Christian" response be? Picture yourself sitting across the table from a woman who is in tears talking about her son, convinced that his preference is genetic. What do you say?
Honestly, I don't think discussing what the Bible says about homosexuality would help and that's not my style anyway. But as a Christian, how would you approach this?
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tell her ted haggard is also a christian.
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Bum,
why was your friend crying?
people usually don't cry unless there is a big problem or something very emotional
is her son on drugs or messed up in any way?
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Tell her to stop being a pansy and stop crying. So her son is gay, big whoopy do. It's not a bad thing. It's just something that happens, and it's not a choice. Homosexuals are people too, not less equal than you or I. And he can still provide her grandchildren via other methods.
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Maybe she should reconsider if she wants to be part of a religion that condemns homosexuals.
If she feels that her sons choice of life is ok with her own personal beliefs, then perhaps it is time to part from a religion that does not share the same values.
Somehow, she have to sit back and just think things through. What things actually matters to her et al.
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Beach, is the reason she is so upset because she doesn't know if he is a believer or not? Even believers struggle with issues the bible states are sinful.
She cannot force him to change his behavior or "worry" it into changing. Maybe tell her to give this whole issue to God, maybe that can help her to stop worrying about it.
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But what should the "Christian" response be? Picture yourself sitting across the table from a woman who is in tears talking about her son, convinced that his preference is genetic. What do you say?
Honestly, I don't think discussing what the Bible says about homosexuality would help and that's not my style anyway. But as a Christian, how would you approach this?
Maybe she was crying out of frustration from having to deal with the obtuseness of her Christian friends
Bum, since this is only one "sin" in a whole huge list of sins maybe you should "approach" this the same way you deal with all the other sinners in the world. Why is this "sin" any different? How do you approach your friends who commit adultery, have pre-marital sex, take Jesus's name in vain or even the worst sin of all which is not accepting JC as their personal saviour?
What's your "approach" with those people?
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I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who has a gay son. We worked together years ago and back then we had many discussions about him, society's response, our respective personal views, etc. She had the single biggest impact on me and how I view the issue. Every time we talked about her son more than ten years ago she would start crying. We had lunch the other day and she started crying again when we were catching up on each other's families.
The great thing about she and I is we both know precisely where we stand and we both respect each other. She loves her son (as she should) and has joined support groups to help other parents in her situation. Her father was a very well known figure and produced lots of sons and grandsons who have been very successful. That made her son's lifestyle that much harder for both of them to deal with.
As a Christian, I think we have an obligation to embrace everyone, regardless of their lifestyle choices. I don't have a problem accepting someone without accepting their lifestyle choices.
But what should the "Christian" response be? Picture yourself sitting across the table from a woman who is in tears talking about her son, convinced that his preference is genetic. What do you say?
Honestly, I don't think discussing what the Bible says about homosexuality would help and that's not my style anyway. But as a Christian, how would you approach this?
Your response is to be her friend, to pray with (and for) her and her son. Above all, remind her of what you just said. Contrary to what some folk may think, loving her son DOES NOT require her acceptance of his homosexual behavior. As for "preference-is-genetic thing, you can point her to groups like Exodus International and let her hear from people, who once thought the same thing, but have left the homosexual lifestyle and are living in happy and healthy heterosexual relationships.
Nearly everyone who has done this has had one basic thing in common: They have all interacted with Christian friends, who loved and cared for them, but DID NOT compromise their standards about homosexuality being wrong.
Take this testimony for example (although, it's not from Exodus Int'l):
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (BP)--My heart pounded as the Sunday School teacher asked us to break into small groups and discuss how we might reach the homosexual community for Christ.
I often had wondered if everyone knew my secret. Now I would find out. In my group of four, Rachel spoke first: "I don't have any compassion for homosexuals."
My heart sank.
Mark chimed in, "I don't either, and I think AIDS is God's judgment against homosexuals."
These two seemed so smug, so arrogant. Anger burned inside me, and I vowed not to speak. But my friend, Robert, who knew I had been a homosexual, spoke next: "Christine, what do you think?" I shot him a look that could have killed. Then I took a deep breath and told Rachel and Mark my secret. The looks on their faces told me that they were sorry and felt embarrassed. What they didn't understand was that I, like many other homosexuals, didn't choose to have these feelings. I had grown up in a home where women were either objects of a man's lust or victims of his abuse…….. (Her father beat on her mother and Christine was molested by a male cousin, when she was as a pre/early teen).
For 18 months, I played on the women's softball team for Idlewild Baptist Church in Tampa, Fla (She emulated her older brother's love for athletics and shortened her name to "Chris", intentionally wishing to be recognized as a boy). During that time, I was drawn by the love my teammates had for one another and for me. It seemed so pure and so right. They knew I was different because of my foul language and unsportsmanlike conduct, but they never treated me like an outsider. Their attitude made me want what they had -- a relationship with Christ. I later found out that they were regularly praying for me. One teammate, Kelly, knew that I was a lesbian, but she never preached to me. She just cared for me and prayed for me. I became interested in spiritual things and asked Kelly to help me study the Bible. She agreed, and we met weekly to study the book of John.
One Sunday night in October, 1989, Kelly led me in the prayer of salvation as I knelt beside my bed in my dorm room. When I stood up, I knew that deep down something had changed. I knew that I wanted God more than my homosexuality. But becoming a Christian was only the beginning of my journey. It didn't instantly resolve my homosexual feelings. I broke up with my partner, but I continued to struggle with unwanted same-sex attractions.
Thankfully, I found out about a ministry that helps people overcome their homosexuality, and I began to attend a local support group. There, I discovered the root causes of my homosexual desires, including sexual abuse, gender confusion, a breakdown in the relationship with my same-sex parent, an abusive father and peer rejection.
I met strong, godly women in church who helped me to see that being feminine didn't mean being weak. I met men who treated me with dignity and respect. This freed me to embrace my gender and to stop rejecting God's design. I even started using my full name, Christine, because I no longer wanted to hide being a girl. My ideas about men and women were changed. I learned that being female is not a liability. And I began to identify outwardly with women, experimenting with wearing makeup and different clothes and using purses. I became different from the inside out.
Others noticed my progress and encouraged me. I'll never forget when Robert approached me in church and said, smiling, "Christine, this is the first time you don't look like a boy in a dress." Though his statement hadn't come out right, I knew that he had meant well, and it let me know I was making progress. The key to my healing was developing healthy same-sex friendships. As I did this, my sexual attractions for women naturally diminished because I found what I was looking for all along -- real love and connections with others.
With God's help and the support of caring people, I now walk in freedom from lesbianism. I know that a changed life is possible because I am a changed person.
www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=28789 (http://www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=28789)
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Homosexuality is GENETIC. You can't overcome it. Ask Ted Haggard.
Bagemihl, Bruce. 1998. Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. New York: St. Martin Press.
Kendler, K. S., L. M. Thornton, S. E. Gilman and R. C. Kessler, 2000. Sexual orientation in a U.S. national sample of twin and nontwin sibling pairs. American Journal of Psychiatry 157(11): 1843-1846.
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060701/fob1.asp
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Homosexuality is GENETIC. You can't overcome it. Ask Ted Haggard.
Bagemihl, Bruce. 1998. Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. New York: St. Martin Press.
Kendler, K. S., L. M. Thornton, S. E. Gilman and R. C. Kessler, 2000. Sexual orientation in a U.S. national sample of twin and nontwin sibling pairs. American Journal of Psychiatry 157(11): 1843-1846.
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060701/fob1.asp
As the old saying goes, When the facts don't match the theory, change the facts. Ms. Sneeringer apparently missed this little study. ;D Of course, the root of her lesbianism had been identified: Lack of bonding with her mom, distrust of men (due to her witnessing her father's abuse), her being molested by her cousin.
But, again, why let facts get in the way of a good theory?
But, since you're such a big science buff.....
"Can You Change Your Sexual Orientation?" by Dr. N.E Whitehead, Ph.D.
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/Ch12.pdf (http://www.mygenes.co.nz/Ch12.pdf)
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Beach Bum,
I don't know if you've ever heard of Pastor Stephen Bennett. But, he may be a great resource for your friend.
Stephen Bennett Ministries, Inc. (SBM) began back in 2000, simply as a Christian on-line support ministry to help men and women struggling with unwanted homosexuality (same-sex attraction). A national Christian organization interviewed Stephen and the Bennett's phone rang non-stop for almost three weeks after. Stephen and Irene saw the need for support for the men and women calling and the ministry of SBM began. SBM also provides biblical and practical support for parents, family members, friends, pastors, churches and entire denominations -- who have a loved one or more who identify as "gay" or lesbian.
Over the past eight years, as homosexuality has moved to the forefront of society as one of the most controversial moral issues of our day, SBM has grown into a full-time, worldwide evangelistic organization -- teaching, preaching and reaching millions with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Founder and executive director Stephen Bennett, a former homosexual man now happily married to his wife Irene for over 15 years and the father of the couple's two precious children, has traveled the world sharing the Lord's story of love, hope, life and true change.
His ministry has a support group for parents with children in the same situation as your friend's son (www.TheParentsGroup.com (http://www.TheParentsGroup.com))
Here's Bennett's testimony (from his site):
the fall of 1981, as an 18 year old aspiring artist with a dream, and a freshman at one of New York’s art schools, I reached one of the darkest periods in my life. On a cold rainy night, far away from home I acted out on feelings I had throughout my entire childhood and teen years - I had my first homosexual encounter with another student. After drinking alcohol at a school party and getting drunk for the first time ever, something I swore I never would do because of my family’s past, my life literally changed in one night. I was plummeted into my deep dark world of homosexuality. After only a few short months in art school, I suffered from a very severe depression, and dropped out of school and returned home to my family in Connecticut.
I found many of my old high schools friends had also “come out” as homosexuals and I became very active in the homosexual bar scene. I lived for the night - my drinking became worse, I started using cocaine to help alleviate my mental turmoil, and found much love and acceptance by other men. I had many numerous one night stands. I felt I was finally “me”. However, my drug addiction got worse to the point where I became a cocaine dealer just to support my habit - I lost my art business to drugs, as well as my dignity to a life based upon my perverse, sensual and decrepit lifestyle I couldn’t break free from. It was at this point many of my friends and one night encounters were getting “sick” and starting to die, and no one knew why. This sickness was the beginning of the AIDS epidemic.
Things only grew worse and for a period of six years I declined morally, mentally and physically. It was in the winter of 1987 after a 3 day cocaine and alcohol binge I cried out for help. After being up all night and running out of cocaine, I looked in the mirror and was shocked at the reflection. Due to my cocaine abuse, as well as years of bulimia, at almost six feet tall, I saw a 135 lb. living skeleton staring back at me and I just cried. I ran down to a pay phone on the street corner and called for help. I admitted myself into a drug rehabilitation program, and began my recovery as an impatient for three months at a nearby facility. It was at this point I began to see God working in my life.
Within a few short months I was alcohol and drug free, as well as free from my bulimia. I had gained about 25 lbs. and was feeling great. However, I still had a deep dark secret past hidden inside of me. What was I to do with my homosexuality? Deep down inside I knew it was wrong, yet I was just suppressing it. After dating a few girls, I found myself one night back again at a local gay bar. I didn’t drink or do drugs - but that night I met a man that I fell in love with, and began a three year live in relationship with him. I seemed I had it all - my homosexual lifestyle and love, without the drugs, alcohol and bulimia, a great job, beautiful home, and great homosexual friends. I attended an unsaved church faithfully every week - and felt I had it all. But God wasn’t done with me yet - in fact, He had just started.
My doorbell rang, and it was my friend Kathy, a friend for years who had seen me through the good and bad times of my life - and she had a Bible in her hand, and asked if she could come in. She had told me she left her religious background and became a Christian. She told me how Jesus changed her life, and how according to the Bible homosexuality was wrong - it was a sin and an abomination in God’s eyes - how according to the Bible I was not “born that way”, how it was circumstances, events and broken relationships from as early on as childhood, that led me down the homosexual path, and that Jesus Christ was offering me deliverance, restoration and most importantly, salvation - today. I listened intently, and something inside of me told me she was right. I told her I would take the Bible and she left. That day, the Word of God cut right through me - I saw my homosexuality for the first time as God saw it - as sin. Over the next year and a half, anytime something would happen between my partner and I sexually, I found myself praying for forgiveness to God I didn’t know, on my bathroom floor. God was tugging at my heart strings and I knew it.......
Within three months after accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior, the homosexual behavior stopped, but not the same-sex attractions. Why? I prayed the prayer, I did everything, I left the man that I loved. What more could I do? Why wasn’t I “set free?”
I knew deep down I had to deal with a very painful issue I didn’t even want to go near – yet one I knew I had to confront in order to move on with my new life in Christ. For me, it was a very damaged, broken relationship with my father.
For years, I only desired one thing: my father's love. I knew as Jesus had forgiven me for all of my sins - past, present and future – I now needed to extend that unconditional forgiveness to a man I deeply hated, yet one I truly loved. After confronting him one day, pouring out my heart and really talking for the very first time in 28 years -- our broken relationship was incredibly reconciled. Forgiveness was extended that day and the chains that bound me for so many years were unshackled. When my father and I hugged in his kitchen, and he told me that he loved me, I was finally set free.
Ever since that day, my father and I had a wonderful relationship. I loved my dad and I know he loved me. Those memories and years of hurt and inner pain were replaced by a real father and son love. We saw each other often, called each other on the phone and the Lord restored alI of the lost years.
On November 13, 2008, my father and I said our final goodbyes as he died from lung cancer. He was truly a wonderful man.
I realized for my entire life, I was vainly looking for the love, attention and affection of my father in the arms of other men. Today, the search is over: I had received the real thing: the love of my dad.
I must say, it is incredible how my journey has been. Within that first year, never having been with a woman before, I was engaged to a beautiful Christian woman, Irene, who knew me as a homosexual, and was praying for me for years. We were married on June 13, 1993. Never having been with a woman before, all I can say is our wedding night was one of the most beautiful, pure experiences I ever had.
Today, almost 16 years later -- and very happily married -- God has blessed us with two other miracles - my beautiful daughter Chloe Catherine, born July 23, 1998, and my son Blake Stephen, born on Chloe's birthday, July 23, 2000. Chloe's middle name is in dedication to my friend Kathy who never gave up on me - a vessel of God, who He used to change my destiny forever.
Today life is wonderful - I am free, and it is all because of Jesus Christ and His love for me. Jesus is the answer for all of our needs, no matter what they are. You may be, know or live with a homosexual, a drug addict, or an alcoholic. Understand - God loves the sinner - He just hates the sin. Christ is there to truly heal, to forgive, to restore and to make whole.
Remember, with God, nothing is impossible - believe me, I know. I do believe in miracles - I believe in miracles, for I've seen a soul set free... for that lost soul was me.
http://www.igroops.com/igroops/sbm+webpages+5 (http://www.igroops.com/igroops/sbm+webpages+5)
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Beach Bum, STella, MCWAY, please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Bible does not say that being attracted to somebody of the same gender is a sin. It only says that having sex with somebody of the same gender is a sin.
If you applied Christ's teachings on adultery to this, then you could stretch this to saying that according to the Bible, looking at somebody of the same gender with lust is a sin in your heart.
If this is true, then it does not matter whether or not being attracted to somebody of the same gender is genetic. It is not a sin. It is a sin only if you look at somebody of the same gender with lust or if you have sex with somebody of the same gender.
You might ask why would God create people with a desire for somebody of the same gender when it is forbidden for them to have sex with somebody of the same gender?
To that I would say that God created me with a desire to lust after and to have sex with most of the hot women I see, married or single. But God forbids me to look at them with lust or to have sex with them. Even though I have this desire to have sex with them, and even though I may have the opportunity to do so, I don't. I don't because I call myself a Christian and I claim to believe that the Bible is the Word of God and I want to obey it, and because the Holy Spirit gives me both the desire and the power to obey, though I also have the choice to disobey.
You might say that at least I'm allowed by God to marry the woman I choose to and to have sex with her after I marry her, while homosexuals are not allowed by God to marry who they want to marry, another homosexual.
To that I would say that married heterosexual couples don't have sex anyway...just kidding. But seriously, most married men I know, and many women too, are not happy with their sex life. Some of them wish they can divorce so that they can have all the casual sex they want to, but most of them are moral people and only contemplate it, but would never do that.
So I'd say heterosexual Christians face similar, if not the same struggles and temptations as Christians who may be attracted to people of the same gender.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on homosexuality. It's not much different than adultery, fornication, etc.
Please discuss. I'd really like to know other Christians opinions on what I just wrote. Thank you!
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Homosexuality is heavily influenced by genetics. I'm sorry to say that one possible exception to the rule doesn't make the rule. Time to start dealing with facts!
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Beach Bum, STella, MCWAY, please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Bible does not say that being attracted to somebody of the same gender is a sin. It only says that having sex with somebody of the same gender is a sin.
I don't think that's the case. Check Romans 1:26-28
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
If you applied Christ's teachings on adultery to this, then you could stretch this to saying that according to the Bible, looking at somebody of the same gender with lust is a sin in your heart.
If this is true, then it does not matter whether or not being attracted to somebody of the same gender is genetic. It is not a sin. It is a sin only if you look at somebody of the same gender with lust or if you have sex with somebody of the same gender.
You might ask why would God create people with a desire for somebody of the same gender when it is forbidden for them to have sex with somebody of the same gender?
To that I would say that God created me with a desire to lust after and to have sex with most of the hot women I see, married or single. But God forbids me to look at them with lust or to have sex with them. Even though I have this desire to have sex with them, and even though I may have the opportunity to do so, I don't. I don't because I call myself a Christian and I claim to believe that the Bible is the Word of God and I want to obey it, and because the Holy Spirit gives me both the desire and the power to obey, though I also have the choice to disobey.
You might say that at least I'm allowed by God to marry the woman I choose to and to have sex with her after I marry her, while homosexuals are not allowed by God to marry who they want to marry, another homosexual.
To that I would say that married heterosexual couples don't have sex anyway...just kidding. But seriously, most married men I know, and many women too, are not happy with their sex life. Some of them wish they can divorce so that they can have all the casual sex they want to, but most of them are moral people and only contemplate it, but would never do that.
So I'd say heterosexual Christians face similar, if not the same struggles and temptations as Christians who may be attracted to people of the same gender.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on homosexuality. It's not much different than adultery, fornication, etc.
A passage often touted to make the case against homosexuality is 1. Cor 6:9-10. But, people often forget verse 11, which pretty much covers this last statement of yours.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God
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1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New International Version)
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Thanks MCWAY! I agree, but what exactly is a homosexual by Biblical definition? I don't know. Is it only a man who lusts after or has sex with another man?
Is a man who is attracted to other men, yet no longer looks at men with lust or has sex with them considered a homosexual, by Biblical definition? I really don't know.
I am attracted to all women, well most women, but that alone does not make me an adulterer or fornicator.
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Homosexuality is heavily influenced by genetics. I'm sorry to say that one possible exception to the rule doesn't make the rule. Time to start dealing with facts!
We are dealing with facts, which is why that statement of yours is questionable, to say the least
Furthermore, there are far more than “one possible exception”, when it comes to this issue. Isn’t it funny that no one can seem to find these genetic causes to homosexuality, BEFORE the people involved start engaging in homosexual conduct?
What we have witnessed about it is the recurring pattern, involving ENVIRONMENT, as it relates to this issue. What’s so “genetic” about being molested by a family member, or having a strained relationship with a same-sex parent, or being scarred by watching your dad beat up your mom?
And, those who have left homosexuality once thought that they were born this way and could do nothing about it, as did Stephen Bennett, Christine Sneeringer, etc. Of course, they pleasantly found such not to be the case. In the latter’s case, as she began to form healthy bonds with women, her lesbian desires went bye-bye.
In the former’s case, a kind person sharing the Gospel with him, even as he lived with his gay lover, led to his redemption. He later patched up his relationship with his father, which (BIG SURPRISE) was at the root of his homosexuality. Now, with a wife of 15 years and two kids, he’s good to go.
Of course, someone will make a note to tell these people (and others like them) that they’re still gay, because of this “rule”.
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No, they were never gay in the first place.
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No, they were never gay in the first place.
I’m sorry!!! Did the definition of “gay” just change over the last 2 hours?
Bennett was doing the homo thing for at least six years and was LIVING WITH HIS MALE LOVER, when his friend, Kathy, started coming to his house to have Bible study with him.
Add to that, Bennett had never been romantically (or sexually) involved with a woman, until he met the one, who is now his wife.
must say, it is incredible how my journey has been. Within that first year, never having been with a woman before, I was engaged to a beautiful Christian woman, Irene, who knew me as a homosexual, and was praying for me for years. We were married on June 13, 1993. Never having been with a woman before, all I can say is our wedding night was one of the most beautiful, pure experiences I ever had.
Then, there’s Ms. Sneeringer. Wasn’t she in a lesbian relationship for a number of YEARS, when her softball teammate (who knew she was gay), started to witness to her as well?
One teammate, Kelly, knew that I was a lesbian, but she never preached to me. She just cared for me and prayed for me. I became interested in spiritual things and asked Kelly to help me study the Bible. She agreed, and we met weekly to study the book of John.
One Sunday night in October, 1989, Kelly led me in the prayer of salvation as I knelt beside my bed in my dorm room. When I stood up, I knew that deep down something had changed. I knew that I wanted God more than my homosexuality. But becoming a Christian was only the beginning of my journey. It didn't instantly resolve my homosexual feelings. I broke up with my partner, but I continued to struggle with unwanted same-sex attractions.
Thankfully, I found out about a ministry that helps people overcome their homosexuality, and I began to attend a local support group. There, I discovered the root causes of my homosexual desires, including sexual abuse, gender confusion, a breakdown in the relationship with my same-sex parent, an abusive father and peer rejection.
It appears you’ve developed this floating definition of “gay”, in order to make your feeble claim stick. Last time I checked, if you’re a guy who’s spent several years doing the Brokeback with another guy, you’re gay. Same goes for ladies doing that L-word thing with other ladies.
They "came out" and said they were gay, and their actions mirror that statement. So, what was that new definition of "gay" again?
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As the old saying goes, When the facts don't match the theory, change the facts. Ms. Sneeringer apparently missed this little study. ;D Of course, the root of her lesbianism had been identified: Lack of bonding with her mom, distrust of men (due to her witnessing her father's abuse), her being molested by her cousin.
But, again, why let facts get in the way of a good theory?
But, since you're such a big science buff.....
"Can You Change Your Sexual Orientation?" by Dr. N.E Whitehead, Ph.D.
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/Ch12.pdf (http://www.mygenes.co.nz/Ch12.pdf)
You're citing an entire book here. I can't even find any information on Dr. N.E Whitehead on google.
Also, You're confusing cause and effect here. It's a post hoc fallacy to assume that just because certain incidents occurred when the woman was a child, those incidents MUST have had an effect on her sexuality. Is there proof of this? No. Can studies be done showing that she has certain biological differences from most heterosexual women? Yes.
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1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New International Version)
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Thanks MCWAY! I agree, but what exactly is a homosexual by Biblical definition? I don't know. Is it only a man who lusts after or has sex with another man?
Is a man who is attracted to other men, yet no longer looks at men with lust or has sex with them considered a homosexual, by Biblical definition? I really don't know.
I am attracted to all women, well most women, but that alone does not make me an adulterer or fornicator.
THe word "homosexual" doesn't appear in the original versions. These are added and interpreted translations.
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We are dealing with facts, which is why that statement of yours is questionable, to say the least
Furthermore, there are far more than “one possible exception”, when it comes to this issue. Isn’t it funny that no one can seem to find these genetic causes to homosexuality, BEFORE the people involved start engaging in homosexual conduct?
What we have witnessed about it is the recurring pattern, involving ENVIRONMENT, as it relates to this issue. What’s so “genetic” about being molested by a family member, or having a strained relationship with a same-sex parent, or being scarred by watching your dad beat up your mom?
And, those who have left homosexuality once thought that they were born this way and could do nothing about it, as did Stephen Bennett, Christine Sneeringer, etc. Of course, they pleasantly found such not to be the case. In the latter’s case, as she began to form healthy bonds with women, her lesbian desires went bye-bye.
In the former’s case, a kind person sharing the Gospel with him, even as he lived with his gay lover, led to his redemption. He later patched up his relationship with his father, which (BIG SURPRISE) was at the root of his homosexuality. Now, with a wife of 15 years and two kids, he’s good to go.
Of course, someone will make a note to tell these people (and others like them) that they’re still gay, because of this “rule”.
Let's look at it like this: Do all people who are molested when they are kids become homosexuals?
Do all people with bad relationships with one parent become homosexuals?
Do all people with dysfunctional families become homosexuals?
I've known a lot of homosexuals in my life and if you ask them if they "choose" to be gay over straight, ALL of them would say it was NOT a choice.
Most gays know that they are gay from the time they hit puberty! When most others are attracted to the opposite sex, they are automatically attracted to the same sex. NO CHOICE is involved in these automatic feelings.
The ONLY reason people claim that homosexuality is not genetic or that it is a choice is because it would mean that their GOD made them that way, and God made people into sinners and freewill had nothing to do with it.
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THe word "homosexual" doesn't appear in the original versions. These are added and interpreted translations.
"homosexual" is an English word. The original version was in Greek.
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Let's look at it like this: Do all people who are molested when they are kids become homosexuals?
Do all people with bad relationships with one parent become homosexuals?
Do all people with dysfunctional families become homosexuals?
Nope!! Of course, nobody claimed that such was the case. But, in the examples I mentioned, these issues played a major role in those people becoming homosexuals. Once those issues were addressed and the wounds healed, the homosexual desires disappeared, as stated by the men and women, who went through this life journey.
I've known a lot of homosexuals in my life and if you ask them if they "choose" to be gay over straight, ALL of them would say it was NOT a choice.
Bennett and Sneeringer said the same thing. But that didn't stop them from leaving homosexuality.
Most gays know that they are gay from the time they hit puberty! When most others are attracted to the opposite sex, they are automatically attracted to the same sex. NO CHOICE is involved in these automatic feelings.
Again, the same thing happened with Bennett and Sneeringer. Nothing indicates that such was genetic. As mentioned earlier, there was phyiscal/emotional trauma involved. In Stephen Bennett's case, it was the estranged relationship with his father. In Christine's case, it was watching her father abuse her mother, the subsequent divorce of her parents, and her being molested by her male cousin.
The ONLY reason people claim that homosexuality is not genetic or that it is a choice is because it would mean that their GOD made them that way, and God made people into sinners and freewill had nothing to do with it.
I beg to differ! People claim that homosexuality is not genetic is because no genetic cause has been found to be the driving force behind it. Otherwise, it would be detected before these folks "came out", not after. It's another "chicken vs. egg" argument. Do the genetic factors cause the homosexuality or does the homosexuality cause the genetic factors? (It'swell-documented that sexual contact can alter brain patterns, which would explain why a number of homosexuals became such after being molested as kids.
"homosexual" is an English word. The original version was in Greek.
The KJV uses the terms "effiminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind", the context of which clearly points to homosexual behavior, as heterosexual misconduct (adultery and fornication) is clearly spelled out in that text.
Another common pattern is that, of those who left the homosexual lifestyle due in part to their faith in God, most (if not all) claim they did so, because someone befriended them and shared with them the love of Jesus Christ. And, while their Christian friends loved and cared for them, they made it abundantly clear to folks like Bennett and Sneeringer that they DID NOT condone their homosexual lifestyle, nor see it in any other vein than being sinful.
But, it goes back to 1 Cor. 6:11, And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NIV, just for you, Loco ;D )
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"homosexual" is an English word. The original version was in Greek.
In the NT. Hebrew in the old. But the greek or Hebrew words for "homosexual" don't appear either. The English one's aren't even used in the KJV.
In the NLT the only place it appears is in Lev. In the NIV the only place it appears is Cor.
In 1Corinthians 6:9 it implies "catamites" which means a pederastic relationship between two males (one much younger, one much older) This was common in Greek times among Greeks.
Leviticus 20:13 says "Don't lie with a man as one would lie with a woman" and this is odd since it doesn't include lesbianism.
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In the NT. Hebrew in the old. But the greek or Hebrew words for "homosexual" don't appear either. The English one's aren't even used in the KJV.
Right, but the verse that MCWAY and I are talking about is in the NT.
In the NLT the only place it appears is in Lev. In the NIV the only place it appears is Cor.
In 1Corinthians 6:9 it implies "catamites" which means a pederastic relationship between two males (one much younger, one much older) This was common in Greek times among Greeks.
Leviticus 20:13 says "Don't lie with a man as one would lie with a woman" and this is odd since it doesn't include lesbianism.
Not sure what your point is. The fact is that
1. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality, both in the OT and the NT, which is important to those to believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
2. There is yet no proof that homosexuality is genetic. But as of right now, I don't see how this makes any difference to Christians. See my long post above.
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Scientists have discovered that certain genetic traits exist almost exclusively in homosexuals opposed to heterosexuals. This can be proven. But if we're looking at a homosexual and know that they had some event occur in their life, how can we deduce that this event played any role in their homosexuality?
I don't know who Bennett or Sneeringer are, but I do know that homosexuals can't "leave" homosexuality anymore than heterosexuals can leave heterosexuality. I'm a heterosexual and it would be impossible for me to make a choice to become homosexual. Simply impossible. I can make a choice to do a lot of things, and actually go through with them, that I wouldn't otherwise do. But I could NEVER make myself attracted to another man. Nothing is there because I was born straight, not gay.
My father was estranged when I was a child. Yet I'm totally heterosexual. You're finding some random event in someone's life and trying to apply it to something later in their life, but it just doesn't fit. Is there any proof that this persons estranged father (or the womans abuse) had any affect on their sexuality? Any proof?
There have been plenty of studies done showing genetic characteristics of homosexuality. It's a very complex thing, and there is no 1 single thing that can influence homosexuality. It's a lot of things. Hormone levels during birth are one big influence.
Why can't doctors figure out who is gay and who isn't before they become adults? Doctors probably can to some accuracy, but who would support such an initiative?
Can homosexuality influence a persons genes? I don't see how. Genes are influenced by things like sexuality. The only things that can influence genes are traumatic life events like exposure to radiation or chemicals, etc. Genes are quite concrete and are rarely changed during life, especially not by someone's sexuality.
Can sexual contact permanently alter the brain? I don't know. Perhaps more likely if someone is a child. I'm not disputing the fact that molestation can have a role in later sexuality. Children brains are very plastic and can be changed quite easily, and thus some experience like this may have an influence on the persons sexuality.
But this would only mean that an environment factor (like child abuse) would simply make it "more likely" for someone to become homosexual as an adult, as their genes for such are already there. This is why not all kids who were molested are gay today.
(and why only a few % of gay people were molested) So in the end, Genes make the difference.
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Scientists have discovered that certain genetic traits exist almost exclusively in homosexuals opposed to heterosexuals. This can be proven. But if we're looking at a homosexual and know that they had some event occur in their life, how can we deduce that this event played any role in their homosexuality?
I don't know who Bennett or Sneeringer are, but I do know that homosexuals can't "leave" homosexuality anymore than heterosexuals can leave heterosexuality. I'm a heterosexual and it would be impossible for me to make a choice to become homosexual. Simply impossible. I can make a choice to do a lot of things, and actually go through with them, that I wouldn't otherwise do. But I could NEVER make myself attracted to another man. Nothing is there because I was born straight, not gay.
My father was estranged when I was a child. Yet I'm totally heterosexual. You're finding some random event in someone's life and trying to apply it to something later in their life, but it just doesn't fit. Is there any proof that this persons estranged father (or the womans abuse) had any affect on their sexuality? Any proof?
There have been plenty of studies done showing genetic characteristics of homosexuality. It's a very complex thing, and there is no 1 single thing that can influence homosexuality. It's a lot of things. Hormone levels during birth are one big influence.
Why can't doctors figure out who is gay and who isn't before they become adults? Doctors probably can to some accuracy, but who would support such an initiative?
Can homosexuality influence a persons genes? I don't see how. Genes are influenced by things like sexuality. The only things that can influence genes are traumatic life events like exposure to radiation or chemicals, etc. Genes are quite concrete and are rarely changed during life, especially not by someone's sexuality.
Can sexual contact permanently alter the brain? I don't know. Perhaps more likely if someone is a child. I'm not disputing the fact that molestation can have a role in later sexuality. Children brains are very plastic and can be changed quite easily, and thus some experience like this may have an influence on the persons sexuality.
But this would only mean that an environment factor (like child abuse) would simply make it "more likely" for someone to become homosexual as an adult, as their genes for such are already there. This is why not all kids who were molested are gay today.
(and why only a few % of gay people were molested) So in the end, Genes make the difference.
Still, no scientific proof that homosexuality is genetic as of today...not that it makes any difference to me.
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Still, no scientific proof that homosexuality is genetic as of today...not that it makes any difference to me.
It's been proven that homosexuality is mostly genetic with environmental components. It's NOT a choice.
Find many online studies.
Only Christians argue against homosexuality being genetic. Because it would conflict with their idea of freewill and Sin and a loving God. That's all.
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You're citing an entire book here. I can't even find any information on Dr. N.E Whitehead on google.
Then I suggest you get you Google fixed. (Hint: His first name is Neil).
Also, You're confusing cause and effect here. It's a post hoc fallacy to assume that just because certain incidents occurred when the woman was a child, those incidents MUST have had an effect on her sexuality. Is there proof of this? No. Can studies be done showing that she has certain biological differences from most heterosexual women? Yes.
Again, it’s “chicken vs. egg”, "nature vs. nurture". Were those biological differences the effect or the cause of her homosexual behavior?
It's anything but a fallacy to state that those incidents had an impact on a woman's sexuality (i.e. Christine Sneeringer), because once those issues were addressed and the wounds from those healed, Sneeringer's lesbian inclinations went away. She stopped seeing being female as being weak, by bonding with godly women in a healthy way. She recovered from the hurt of her being molested. And, it's safe to say that she is learning still to form strong positive relationships with men. Once that cycle is complete, there's the strong possibility of her having a romantic and ultimately sexual (after marriage, of course ;D ) reationship with a man.
In the NT. Hebrew in the old. But the greek or Hebrew words for "homosexual" don't appear either. The English one's aren't even used in the KJV.
In the NLT the only place it appears is in Lev. In the NIV the only place it appears is Cor.
In 1Corinthians 6:9 it implies "catamites" which means a pederastic relationship between two males (one much younger, one much older) This was common in Greek times among Greeks.
That line has been used repeatedly in a futile effort to condone homosexuality in a Christian framework. The simple fact is that no male-male sexual relationship has ever been condoned, per Scripture (regardless of the ages of the males involved). Hence, you have the English translation, "abusers of themselves with mankind", with "mankind" meaning adult males.
Leviticus 20:13 says "Don't lie with a man as one would lie with a woman" and this is odd since it doesn't include lesbianism.
Hardly odd!! These laws are addressed to the males, first. There were laws that said that if a man stole a sheep, he had to reimburse the victim with at least two sheep. That hardly meant that women could jack livestock and go unpunished. The simple assumption was that any laws addressed to the males applied to the females, unless there were gender-specific issues that needed particular attention and guidance.
Lost in all of this is the fundamental principle that ANY SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP, besides that of a man and woman, within the boundaries of MARRIAGE, was and is wrong. So, attempting to look for loopholes to excuse homosexual behavior simply doesn't cut it.
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Well I'm done arguing with MCWAY. He said that he would Bash a 2 year old Girls head in if God told him to. He's a fanatical psychopath who doesn't warrant my responses.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=263451.msg3731780#msg3731780
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Scientists have discovered that certain genetic traits exist almost exclusively in homosexuals opposed to heterosexuals. This can be proven. But if we're looking at a homosexual and know that they had some event occur in their life, how can we deduce that this event played any role in their homosexuality?
I don't know who Bennett or Sneeringer are, but I do know that homosexuals can't "leave" homosexuality anymore than heterosexuals can leave heterosexuality. I'm a heterosexual and it would be impossible for me to make a choice to become homosexual. Simply impossible. I can make a choice to do a lot of things, and actually go through with them, that I wouldn't otherwise do. But I could NEVER make myself attracted to another man. Nothing is there because I was born straight, not gay.
It appears that, like Nordic, you're using a floating definition of "homosexual" or "gay". As for your NEVER being able to make yourself attracted to another man, one well-placed traumatic event can make that attraction a reality. Do you think male prisoners go into the slammer, intially attracted to other men? I don't. But, if some of them get beat up or raped enough times, their minds can get bent to the point, when the attractions emerge.
That reminds me of a movie I saw years ago. You may have heard of it, "Higher Learning". If you've seen it you may recall the girl in that movie gets raped by a frat guy (actually, she initially consents to sex but, while actually doing, she tells him to stop because he doesn't have a rubber on him).
Fearful that the police won't believe her, because she did consent (and had been drinking), she feels isolated and vulnerable. The one person who befriends her just happens to be a lesbian. Next thing you know, her friendship becomes attraction and she has her first lesbian encounter.
My father was estranged when I was a child. Yet I'm totally heterosexual. You're finding some random event in someone's life and trying to apply it to something later in their life, but it just doesn't fit. Is there any proof that this persons estranged father (or the womans abuse) had any affect on their sexuality? Any proof?
I'm not finding some "random" events. The events are recurring, as I've mentioned earlier. And the proof is in the lives of the people themselves. Once again, you show your tendency to ignore real-world observations and actions, because they clash with certain scientific studies that support your view on the issue.
There have been plenty of studies done showing genetic characteristics of homosexuality. It's a very complex thing, and there is no 1 single thing that can influence homosexuality. It's a lot of things. Hormone levels during birth are one big influence.
Why can't doctors figure out who is gay and who isn't before they become adults? Doctors probably can to some accuracy, but who would support such an initiative?
If they could, they would have done so, long before now. They are studying people AFTER they have "come out" (likely having already engaged in homosexual activity).
Can homosexuality influence a persons genes? I don't see how. Genes are influenced by things like sexuality. The only things that can influence genes are traumatic life events like exposure to radiation or chemicals, etc. Genes are quite concrete and are rarely changed during life, especially not by someone's sexuality.
Can sexual contact permanently alter the brain? I don't know. Perhaps more likely if someone is a child. I'm not disputing the fact that molestation can have a role in later sexuality. Children brains are very plastic and can be changed quite easily, and thus some experience like this may have an influence on the persons sexuality.
But this would only mean that an environment factor (like child abuse) would simply make it "more likely" for someone to become homosexual as an adult, as their genes for such are already there. This is why not all kids who were molested are gay today.
(and why only a few % of gay people were molested) So in the end, Genes make the difference.
If genes made the difference, people like the ones mentioned would be gay, no matter what behavior changes were made or any aspects of their lives addressed. But, as seen in these people (and others like them) that simply isn't the case. Plus, you said it yourself, there are multiple factors involved and, as is often the case, those factors play their part in one's sexuality.
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this thread is over. there is no arguing with whackjobs like mcway.
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Well I'm done arguing with MCWAY. He said that he would Bash a 2 year old Girls head in if God told him to. He's a fanatical psychopath who doesn't warrant my responses.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=263451.msg3731780#msg3731780
And you would rip a baby's arms and legs off, crush its skull, and suck its brains out with a vacuum, if a scientist told you it's not actually a baby and it's still in the womb.
So, you're hardly in a position to call me a "fanantical psychopath".
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And you would rip a baby's arms and legs off, crush its skull, and suck its brains out with a vacuum, if a scientist told you it's not actually a baby and it's still in the womb.
So, you're hardly in a position to call me a "fanantical psychopath".
the mother has to make that choice, no one else. not you, not him.
you on the other hand, will kill a child in your god's name.
how are you any different from the terrorists that flew the planes through the wtc towers? they were all doing it in their god's name.
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the mother has to make that choice, no one else. not you, not him.
you on the other hand, will kill a child in your god's name.
how are you any different from the terrorists that flew the planes through the wtc towers? they were all doing it in their god's name.
How about you and liberalismo stick to the subject of the thread and address MCWAY's posts intelligently instead of taking his words from another thread and dishonestly twisting his words to discredit him? MCWAY is a good guy who like many other Christians actively helps others around him and around the world with his time, energy money and other resources, unlike many people on the Internet who do nothing but bitch and complain about everything.
How many Christians killed children in the name of God this week, last week, the week before?
How many Christians today go out of their way to help other people, both children and adults, around them and around the world?
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How about you and liberalismo stick to the subject of the thread and address MCWAY's posts intelligently instead of taking his words from another thread and dishonestly twisting his words to discredit him? MCWAY is a good guy who like many other Christians actively helps others around him and around the world with his time, energy money and other resources, unlike many people on the Internet who do nothing but bitch and complain about everything.
How many Christians killed children in the name of God this week, last week, the week before?
How many Christians today go out of their way to help other people, both children and adults, around them and around the world?
so when a point about killing a 2 yr old is brought up to my attention, i should just ignore it and "stick" to the thread? i believe it has a lot of significance. killing in the name of god is the most delusional thing any person can do. i dont care if the topic came up in the nutrition or steroids board.
and dont be so sure about christians not killing anyone, again you are being naive.
a lot of non-christian organizations are also out there, so your point is moot.
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Its not too far off really.
Let's kill children on God's orders because their parents committed evil acts that hey will surely duplicate when they grow up. So why not kill homosexuals for being gay too? After all they are evil sinners and we are right in killing them in God's name.
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How many Christians killed children in the name of God this week, last week, the week before?
How many Christians today go out of their way to help other people, both children and adults, around them and around the world?
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How about you and liberalismo stick to the subject of the thread and address MCWAY's posts intelligently instead of taking his words from another thread and dishonestly twisting his words to discredit him? MCWAY is a good guy who like many other Christians actively helps others around him and around the world with his time, energy money and other resources, unlike many people on the Internet who do nothing but bitch and complain about everything.
How many Christians killed children in the name of God this week, last week, the week before?
How many Christians today go out of their way to help other people, both children and adults, around them and around the world?
ANYONE who says that they would squash a 2 year old girls skull in because "Gold told them to" is PSYCHOTIC. Pure and simple.
Anyone who would DEFEND such a person and claim that such a psycho is a "good guy" is also suffering from major delusion.
Now I'll give you a chance to take this back, and if not then I see no point in debating with you either.
It's not about how many have done it, it's how many WOULD do it if asked by their God. Anyone willing to do such a horrific thing in the name of God isn't worth the keystrokes required to rebuke them (nor is anyone who defends them)
That's my final word on the 2 of you, unless you admit that anyone who says that they would do such a thing suffers mental illness and is not a "good guy".
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ANYONE who says that they would squash a 2 year old girls skull in because "Gold told them to" is PSYCHOTIC. Pure and simple.
Anyone who would DEFEND such a person and claim that such a psycho is a "good guy" is also suffering from major delusion.
Now I'll give you a chance to take this back, and if not then I see no point in debating with you either.
It's not about how many have done it, it's how many WOULD do it if asked by their God. Anyone willing to do such a horrific thing in the name of God isn't worth the keystrokes required to rebuke them (nor is anyone who defends them)
That's my final word on the 2 of you, unless you admit that anyone who says that they would do such a thing suffers mental illness and is not a "good guy".
You are dishonestly twisting MCWAY's words and now you are dishonestly twisting mine too. Fine, don't debate me either. I'll just cry myself to sleep tonight because liberalismo will no longer debate loco. :'(
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You are dishonestly twisting MCWAY's words and now you are dishonestly twisting mine too. Fine, don't debate me either. I'll just cry myself to sleep tonight because liberalismo will no longer debate loco. :'(
TWISTING HIS WORDS? Here, I'll let his words speak for themselves.
Very Christian of you to mock the killing of women and children.
So, McWay if God ordered you to bash the head in of a 2 year old girl would you do it?
I didn't mock the killing of the women and children. I listed the options that would be available, with regards to the remnants of Israel's defeated attackers.
As for your question, which I've answered once before, the answer is YES!!
Cue the outrage!!!
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the mother has to make that choice, no one else. not you, not him.
you on the other hand, will kill a child in your god's name.
I don't mean to put words in your mouth but are you saying killing a child in the name of inconvenience is acceptable to you?
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TWISTING HIS WORDS? Here, I'll let his words speak for themselves.
I read it before. I know what MCWAY means, and it's not what you are saying just to discredit him.
How many people around the world believe that the Bible is the word of God?
How many of those people killed children in the name of God this week, last week, the week before?
Why are you still debating me?
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I don't mean to put words in your mouth but are you saying killing a child in the name of inconvenience is acceptable to you?
i have my own views and reservations on abortion (and a lot of other things), but ultimately for me, it is none of my business.
some people define fetus and child the same, i don't. a lot of people don't. a 2 yr old is definitely a child, though.
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i have my own views and reservations on abortion (and a lot of other things), but ultimately for me, it is none of my business.
some people define fetus and child the same, i don't. a lot of people don't. a 2 yr old is definitely a child, though.
How convenient!
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How convenient!
what's convenient? have i even told you how I actually feel about abortion? i am actually against it. but like i said, it is NONE OF MY BUSINESS!!!
you, on the other hand, just feel the need to stick your head in everyone's business. more power to you.
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what's convenient? have i even told you how I actually feel about abortion? i am actually against it. but like i said, it is NONE OF MY BUSINESS!!!
A 2 year old, but not a 1 year old, a 1 month old?
you, on the other hand, just feel the need to stick your head in everyone's business. more power to you.
Oh yeah? And how am I doing that?
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this was a very good thread before the two of you got personal with the killing of babies. i understand you both are very pationate about your stance but your points could be made with out this particular reference?
funny i went to church last sunday and before the Pastors sermon he spoke about homosexuality. speaking about Leviticus 18:22. he stated homosexuality was a choice and an abomination. he talked about his niece who was "turned" to a homosexual lifestyle for 2 years by her coach, the family prayed with her and now she isnt a homosexual ::).
i dont agree that homosexuality is a choice or a sin. a good point was brought up earlier, as a heterosexual, i could not force myself to be gay. theres no way.
do you guys believe homosexuals will go to "hell"??
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you could go on splitting hairs but i don't want to. i don't care. 3 months, 2 years, what the hell does it matter?
Is a 8 month old fetus a baby, a human being, with rights? How about a 23 week old fetus?
you being a conservative feels the need to outlaw abortion, don't you? that's what i meant. i shouldn't have to explain too much.
When did I say to you that I'm a conservative? When did I say to you that I feel a need to outlaw abortion? Do you even know what country I'm from?
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A 2 year old, but not a 1 year old, a 1 month old?
why the hell do you care? it doesn't matter.
Oh yeah? And how am I doing that?
you being a conservative probably would like to outlaw abortion. that is sticking you head in people's business. it has nothing to do with YOU!
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Beach Bum, STella, MCWAY, please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Bible does not say that being attracted to somebody of the same gender is a sin. It only says that having sex with somebody of the same gender is a sin.
If you applied Christ's teachings on adultery to this, then you could stretch this to saying that according to the Bible, looking at somebody of the same gender with lust is a sin in your heart.
If this is true, then it does not matter whether or not being attracted to somebody of the same gender is genetic. It is not a sin. It is a sin only if you look at somebody of the same gender with lust or if you have sex with somebody of the same gender.
I've pretty much held the view of the act being the stated sin and not the condition of being attracted to the same sex. But I never really thought about the lusting part of it which, as you say, is stated as being like adultery/sin in the heart.
One thing I think is so misleading and hate to see is when people focus on "so and so is homosexual so he/she is going to hell" or "you Christians think all homosexuals are going to hell."
IMO, neither of those are exclusively true and here is why.....I believe there are people that struggle w/homosexuality that may truly have accepted Christ as Savior. I also believe that largely, a person lusts after another or engages in homosexual behavior long after they have knowingly committed other sins.
I hate how homosexuals are made to feel like the plague by people that don't understand the bible which states we are all lost w/o Christ as Savior.
God loves homosexuals just as He loves heteros. Thankfully Christ has made a way for us all to go to heaven :)
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Is a 8 month old fetus a baby, a human being, with rights? How about a 23 week old fetus?
When did I say to you that I'm a conservative? When did I say to you that I feel a need to outlaw abortion? Do you even know what country I'm from?
This is getting silly. I really don't want it to.
You are a conservative. Where you're from has nothing to do with it. And I assumed you want to outlaw abortion (based on your remarks) I didn't just come up with it. It's up to you tell me otherwise.
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I've pretty much held the view of the act being the stated sin and not the condition of being attracted to the same sex. But I never really thought about the lusting part of it which, as you say, is stated as being like adultery/sin in the heart.
One thing I think is so misleading and hate to see is when people focus on "so and so is homosexual so he/she is going to hell" or "you Christians think all homosexuals are going to hell."
IMO, neither of those are exclusively true and here is why.....I believe there are people that struggle w/homosexuality that may truly have accepted Christ as Savior. I also believe that largely, a person lusts after another or engages in homosexual behavior long after they have knowingly committed other sins.
I hate how homosexuals are made to feel like the plague by people that don't understand the bible which states we are all lost w/o Christ as Savior.
God loves homosexuals just as He loves heteros. Thankfully Christ has made a way for us all to go to heaven :)
Thank you very much, STella, for bringing the thread back to topic! :)
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I've pretty much held the view of the act being the stated sin and not the condition of being attracted to the same sex. But I never really thought about the lusting part of it which, as you say, is stated as being like adultery/sin in the heart.
One thing I think is so misleading and hate to see is when people focus on "so and so is homosexual so he/she is going to hell" or "you Christians think all homosexuals are going to hell."
IMO, neither of those are exclusively true and here is why.....I believe there are people that struggle w/homosexuality that may truly have accepted Christ as Savior. I also believe that largely, a person lusts after another or engages in homosexual behavior long after they have knowingly committed other sins.
I hate how homosexuals are made to feel like the plague by people that don't understand the bible which states we are all lost w/o Christ as Savior.
God loves homosexuals just as He loves heteros. Thankfully Christ has made a way for us all to go to heaven :)
If all Christians were like you, STella, the world will definitely be a better place. I'm serious.
Unfortunately, you and I know that's not the case.
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If all Christians were like you, STella, the world will definitely be a better place. I'm serious.
Unfortunately, you and I know that's not the case.
I'm definitely not like STella...she's much prettier and much nicer than I am..., but I definitely agree with her post! :)
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Thank you very much, STella, for bringing the thread back to topic! :)
I guess if we get off again I can split and move stuff!
If all Christians were like you, STella, the world will definitely be a better place. I'm serious.
Unfortunately, you and I know that's not the case.
That is very nice of you to say Joel_A, in reality I need a lot of help myself ;D
But I also want you to realize that people like those nuts from Westboro Church or whatever it's called that hold up terrible signs may not be Christians at all!
When you look at fallible human beings that are followers of Christ (or claim to be), keep in mind that none of us compares to Him. He is Holy and although true Christians are forgiven sinners, we still live in our fleshly bodies and struggle w/stuff all the time. Sometimes we say and do things that make people want to reject our God. Studying Him is better than studying us! :)
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I'm definitely not like STella...she's much prettier and much nicer than I am..., but I definitely agree with her post! :)
Haha! I've got this Nice Stella ruse going here....good thing there isn't audio broadcasting from my car when people drive slowly in the left lane :-[
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the mother has to make that choice, no one else. not you, not him.
you on the other hand, will kill a child in your god's name.
how are you any different from the terrorists that flew the planes through the wtc towers? they were all doing it in their god's name.
So, killing of babies is kosher, as long as it's NOT in God's name and the mother is the one who does it? AAAHHHHHHH I see now!
As for your silly question,
1) I don't hate a group of people, due to their bloodline, their being Westerners, or worshipping a different deity.
2) Nobody has been assaulting me or my family for over 300 years.
3) As a result of 2, I don't have to make the decision to destroy my enemies (every man, woman, and child) or face extermination myself.
So, if you're done with the bleating, I, like STella, will get this thread back on track, regarding how a Christian should respond to homosexuality.
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So, killing of babies is kosher, as long as it's NOT in God's name and the mother is the one who does it? AAAHHHHHHH I see now!
it's none of your business.
As for your silly question,
1) I don't hate a group of people, due to their bloodline, their being Westerners, or worshipping a different deity.
2) Nobody has been assaulting me or my family for over 300 years.
3) As a result of 2, I don't have to make the decision to destroy my enemies (every man, woman, and child) or face extermination myself.
So, if you're done with the bleating, I, like STella, will get this thread back on track, regarding how a Christian should respond to homosexuality.
you will kill a person in your god's name. you are NOT like STella at all.
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it's none of your business.
The issue isn't whose business it is. The issue is your blowing as gasket about my statement, yet having no problem with a baby being dismembered, simply because Mama did it, in the name of "choice", instead of God.
you will kill a person in your god's name. you are NOT like STella at all.
And, you will kill a person in the name of "choice". This may come as a shock to you, but the child ain't any less dead, because of it.
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The issue isn't whose business it is. The issue is your blowing as gasket about my statement, yet having no problem with a baby being dismembered, simply because Mama did it, in the name of "choice", instead of God.
And, you will kill a person in the name of "choice". This may come as a shock to you, but the child ain't any less dead, because of it.
see, if you've been reading this thread, you would know by now that i am AGAINST abortion, but that is my reservation. I choose not to get into their personal business.
I'm done with you. It's not fun anymore.
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Beach, is the reason she is so upset because she doesn't know if he is a believer or not? Even believers struggle with issues the bible states are sinful.
She cannot force him to change his behavior or "worry" it into changing. Maybe tell her to give this whole issue to God, maybe that can help her to stop worrying about it.
Stella I think her anguish is pretty complex. She believes in God, but isn't a practicing Christian. Her son had a hard time growing up. His father died when her son was very young. Her son really struggled with his sexuality. She took him to therapy and received conflicting advice. This was almost 30 years ago. She was/is hurt by how difficult it was for her son to grow up in the environment he did, never really being fully accepted by his family, society, etc. That’s the source of most of her pain. He now lives in San Francisco.
I think she really believes that her son's homosexuality is genetic. She isn't trying to change his behavior. I'm not sure wants to change it. She is actually sort of a gay rights activist because of him.
Sorry I wasn't really clear in my first post. She's not trying to change him and I'm not trying to change her opinion. My struggle was with how I discuss the Christian point of view with someone like her. Honestly, I don't want to. Didn't feel like it was my place to do so, even though she knows what I think about the lifestyle, that I'm a Christian, etc.
When I had a Christian friend talk to me about cheating on his wife, I talked to him about the Proverb that says a person who commits adultery will get a "wound" and "dishonor," and highlight how many men get caught, even if it takes years (e.g., Clinton, Cosby, Edwards, Dr. J., etc.). When I talked to my daughter the other day about some other kid trying to hit his father, we discussed what the Bible has to say about honoring your parents. When I talk to (some) kids about doing the right thing, I'll mention the Proverb that essentially says "what goes around, comes around."
But talking to a mother like this about her gay son? I just couldn't really mention what the Bible says about homosexuality. This issue is different.
Sorry to ramble . . . . :-\
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Your response is to be her friend, to pray with (and for) her and her son. Above all, remind her of what you just said. Contrary to what some folk may think, loving her son DOES NOT require her acceptance of his homosexual behavior. As for "preference-is-genetic thing, you can point her to groups like Exodus International and let her hear from people, who once thought the same thing, but have left the homosexual lifestyle and are living in happy and healthy heterosexual relationships.
Nearly everyone who has done this has had one basic thing in common: They have all interacted with Christian friends, who loved and cared for them, but DID NOT compromise their standards about homosexuality being wrong.
Take this testimony for example (although, it's not from Exodus Int'l):
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (BP)--My heart pounded as the Sunday School teacher asked us to break into small groups and discuss how we might reach the homosexual community for Christ.
I often had wondered if everyone knew my secret. Now I would find out. In my group of four, Rachel spoke first: "I don't have any compassion for homosexuals."
My heart sank.
Mark chimed in, "I don't either, and I think AIDS is God's judgment against homosexuals."
These two seemed so smug, so arrogant. Anger burned inside me, and I vowed not to speak. But my friend, Robert, who knew I had been a homosexual, spoke next: "Christine, what do you think?" I shot him a look that could have killed. Then I took a deep breath and told Rachel and Mark my secret. The looks on their faces told me that they were sorry and felt embarrassed. What they didn't understand was that I, like many other homosexuals, didn't choose to have these feelings. I had grown up in a home where women were either objects of a man's lust or victims of his abuse…….. (Her father beat on her mother and Christine was molested by a male cousin, when she was as a pre/early teen).
For 18 months, I played on the women's softball team for Idlewild Baptist Church in Tampa, Fla (She emulated her older brother's love for athletics and shortened her name to "Chris", intentionally wishing to be recognized as a boy). During that time, I was drawn by the love my teammates had for one another and for me. It seemed so pure and so right. They knew I was different because of my foul language and unsportsmanlike conduct, but they never treated me like an outsider. Their attitude made me want what they had -- a relationship with Christ. I later found out that they were regularly praying for me. One teammate, Kelly, knew that I was a lesbian, but she never preached to me. She just cared for me and prayed for me. I became interested in spiritual things and asked Kelly to help me study the Bible. She agreed, and we met weekly to study the book of John.
One Sunday night in October, 1989, Kelly led me in the prayer of salvation as I knelt beside my bed in my dorm room. When I stood up, I knew that deep down something had changed. I knew that I wanted God more than my homosexuality. But becoming a Christian was only the beginning of my journey. It didn't instantly resolve my homosexual feelings. I broke up with my partner, but I continued to struggle with unwanted same-sex attractions.
Thankfully, I found out about a ministry that helps people overcome their homosexuality, and I began to attend a local support group. There, I discovered the root causes of my homosexual desires, including sexual abuse, gender confusion, a breakdown in the relationship with my same-sex parent, an abusive father and peer rejection.
I met strong, godly women in church who helped me to see that being feminine didn't mean being weak. I met men who treated me with dignity and respect. This freed me to embrace my gender and to stop rejecting God's design. I even started using my full name, Christine, because I no longer wanted to hide being a girl. My ideas about men and women were changed. I learned that being female is not a liability. And I began to identify outwardly with women, experimenting with wearing makeup and different clothes and using purses. I became different from the inside out.
Others noticed my progress and encouraged me. I'll never forget when Robert approached me in church and said, smiling, "Christine, this is the first time you don't look like a boy in a dress." Though his statement hadn't come out right, I knew that he had meant well, and it let me know I was making progress. The key to my healing was developing healthy same-sex friendships. As I did this, my sexual attractions for women naturally diminished because I found what I was looking for all along -- real love and connections with others.
With God's help and the support of caring people, I now walk in freedom from lesbianism. I know that a changed life is possible because I am a changed person.
www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=28789 (http://www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=28789)
Good advice. Thanks McWay.
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Beach Bum, STella, MCWAY, please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Bible does not say that being attracted to somebody of the same gender is a sin. It only says that having sex with somebody of the same gender is a sin.
If you applied Christ's teachings on adultery to this, then you could stretch this to saying that according to the Bible, looking at somebody of the same gender with lust is a sin in your heart.
If this is true, then it does not matter whether or not being attracted to somebody of the same gender is genetic. It is not a sin. It is a sin only if you look at somebody of the same gender with lust or if you have sex with somebody of the same gender.
You might ask why would God create people with a desire for somebody of the same gender when it is forbidden for them to have sex with somebody of the same gender?
To that I would say that God created me with a desire to lust after and to have sex with most of the hot women I see, married or single. But God forbids me to look at them with lust or to have sex with them. Even though I have this desire to have sex with them, and even though I may have the opportunity to do so, I don't. I don't because I call myself a Christian and I claim to believe that the Bible is the Word of God and I want to obey it, and because the Holy Spirit gives me both the desire and the power to obey, though I also have the choice to disobey.
You might say that at least I'm allowed by God to marry the woman I choose to and to have sex with her after I marry her, while homosexuals are not allowed by God to marry who they want to marry, another homosexual.
To that I would say that married heterosexual couples don't have sex anyway...just kidding. But seriously, most married men I know, and many women too, are not happy with their sex life. Some of them wish they can divorce so that they can have all the casual sex they want to, but most of them are moral people and only contemplate it, but would never do that.
So I'd say heterosexual Christians face similar, if not the same struggles and temptations as Christians who may be attracted to people of the same gender.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on homosexuality. It's not much different than adultery, fornication, etc.
Please discuss. I'd really like to know other Christians opinions on what I just wrote. Thank you!
I agree with your comments loco. That's why I don't demonize homosexuals. Even though the Bible is clear on homosexuality, I don't think that gives us (Christians) the right to disrespect them, hate them, etc. I don't think a practicing homosexual is any less in God's eyes than me.
But regarding acting on impulses, desires, etc., you've summed up what I heard Falwell say several years ago. I was not a fan or follower of his, but I once heard him say that we are all tempted in areas in which we are weak and some of us are more prone to engage in certain types of behavior than others, including homosexual behavior. It's acting on those temptations that becomes a problem from a Christian standpoint, which I think is what you were saying.
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I've pretty much held the view of the act being the stated sin and not the condition of being attracted to the same sex. But I never really thought about the lusting part of it which, as you say, is stated as being like adultery/sin in the heart.
One thing I think is so misleading and hate to see is when people focus on "so and so is homosexual so he/she is going to hell" or "you Christians think all homosexuals are going to hell."
IMO, neither of those are exclusively true and here is why.....I believe there are people that struggle w/homosexuality that may truly have accepted Christ as Savior. I also believe that largely, a person lusts after another or engages in homosexual behavior long after they have knowingly committed other sins.
I hate how homosexuals are made to feel like the plague by people that don't understand the bible which states we are all lost w/o Christ as Savior.
God loves homosexuals just as He loves heteros. Thankfully Christ has made a way for us all to go to heaven :)
lol. I just read this after posting my comments. We agree. :)
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I agree with your comments loco. That's why I don't demonize homosexuals. Even though the Bible is clear on homosexuality, I don't think that gives us (Christians) the right to disrespect them, hate them, etc. I don't think a practicing homosexual is any less in God's eyes than me.
But regarding acting on impulses, desires, etc., you've summed up what I heard Falwell say several years ago. I was not a fan or follower of his, but I once heard him say that we are all tempted in areas in which we are weak and some of us are more prone to engage in certain types of behavior than others, including homosexual behavior. It's acting on those temptations that becomes a problem from a Christian standpoint, which I think is what you were saying.
Agreed!! The problem, however, is that certain folks think that if you don't condone or accept their homosexual lifestyle, you are hating them. You've seen this time and time again, when it comes to states passing marriage amendments.
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Stella I think her anguish is pretty complex. She believes in God, but isn't a practicing Christian. Her son had a hard time growing up. His father died when her son was very young. Her son really struggled with his sexuality. She took him to therapy and received conflicting advice. This was almost 30 years ago. She was/is hurt by how difficult it was for her son to grow up in the environment he did, never really being fully accepted by his family, society, etc. That’s the source of most of her pain. He now lives in San Francisco.
I think she really believes that her son's homosexuality is genetic. She isn't trying to change his behavior. I'm not sure wants to change it. She is actually sort of a gay rights activist because of him.
Sorry I wasn't really clear in my first post. She's not trying to change him and I'm not trying to change her opinion. My struggle was with how I discuss the Christian point of view with someone like her. Honestly, I don't want to. Didn't feel like it was my place to do so, even though she knows what I think about the lifestyle, that I'm a Christian, etc.
When I had a Christian friend talk to me about cheating on his wife, I talked to him about the Proverb that says a person who commits adultery will get a "wound" and "dishonor," and highlight how many men get caught, even if it takes years (e.g., Clinton, Cosby, Edwards, Dr. J., etc.). When I talked to my daughter the other day about some other kid trying to hit his father, we discussed what the Bible has to say about honoring your parents. When I talk to (some) kids about doing the right thing, I'll mention the Proverb that essentially says "what goes around, comes around."
But talking to a mother like this about her gay son? I just couldn't really mention what the Bible says about homosexuality. This issue is different.
Sorry to ramble . . . . :-\
You didn't ramble!
Beach, sometimes women just want to be able to talk to their friend and have them listen. Maybe that's what's happening here, I don't know?
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You didn't ramble!
Beach, sometimes women just want to be able to talk to their friend and have them listen. Maybe that's what's happening here, I don't know?
And, if that what she needs, then you continue to be that friend for her, Bum. Continue to pray with her and for her family. Your friend will really appreaciate that, I'm sure.
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Thanks Stella and McWay. I think you've given me the right answer: listen, be a friend, and pray for her.
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Why are Christians so focused on this one single action that they consider sinful?
Why does this get so much attention when hundres of other sins which can objectively be seen as a choice get ignore. Where's the long threads about premarital sex, adultery, lying or even making graven images. If God cares so much about homosexuality why didn't he make it one of the ten commandments.
Where are the ten page threads about people who CHOOSE to bear false witness?
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Why do atheists constantly obsess over things they don't believe in? ::)
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Why are Christians so focused on this one single action that they consider sinful?
Why does this get so much attention when hundres of other sins which can objectively be seen as a choice get ignore. Where's the long threads about premarital sex, adultery, lying or even making graven images. If God cares so much about homosexuality why didn't he make it one of the ten commandments.
You might want to check #7, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" That covers a host of sexual sins, INCLUDING HOMOSEXUALITY.
Where are the ten page threads about people who CHOOSE to bear false witness?
We have covered those issues, Straw. Part of the reason that these threads are 10 pages long is because folks like you keep getting all bent out of shape, trying to make some rationale as to homosexuality being anything but sinful.
Why do atheists constantly obsess over things they don't believe in? ::)
The mind boggles at that one.
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You might want to check #7, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" That covers a host of sexual sins, INCLUDING HOMOSEXUALITY.
really?
ok. maybe i just don't remember all the threads about lying and adultery and what the appropriate Christian response should be to those sins of choice
We have covered those issues, Straw. Part of the reason that these threads are 10 pages long is because folks like you keep getting all bent out of shape, trying to make some rationale as to homosexuality being anything but sinful.
The mind boggles at that one.
I'm not arguing that you shouldn't belive it's sin.
I'm arguing that your belief are irrelevent in secular society.
We allow you to exist and express your belief just like we allow all other religions to express their beliefs.
We, as a society, are perfectly within our rights to point out the hypocrisy and you are free to try to justify it.
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I guess Christianity is the right religion? wow.
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
-Richard Dawkins
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I guess Christianity is the right religion? wow.
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
-Richard Dawkins
In how many deities must you believe not to be an atheist? (Hint: It's the same as the number of kids you need to be a parent ;D ).
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I'm not arguing that you shouldn't belive it's sin.
I'm arguing that your belief are irrelevent in secular society.
And, as I mentioned elsewhere, there are at least six commandments of the Decalogue that are as relevant today as they were millennia ago. Or are you just ducky with stealing, lying, your wife cheating on you, severe greed, first-degree murder, and disobedient heathen children?
We allow you to exist and express your belief just like we allow all other religions to express their beliefs.
We, as a society, are perfectly within our rights to point out the hypocrisy and you are free to try to justify it.
We exist and express our beliefs whether you "allow" us to do so or not.
And, last time I checked this society belongs to us as well. As for pointing hypocrisy and justifying it, that works both ways.
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And, as I mentioned elsewhere, there are at least six commandments of the Decalogue that are as relevant today as they were millennia ago. Or are you just ducky with stealing, lying, your wife cheating on you, severe greed, first-degree murder, and disobedient heathen children?
my point is that there is a huge list of other sins that are clearly a choice and I don't see many threads about them. Why would you draw the conclusion I'm OK with first degree murder? On the scale of sins which one do you think is worse...murder or homosexuality?
We exist and express our beliefs whether you "allow" us to do so or not.
And, last time I checked this society belongs to us as well. As for pointing hypocrisy and justifying it, that works both ways.
In case you've forgotton our country allows freedom of religion
It's a secular and non-religious government that allows you to express your faith freely
Try being an "out of the closet" Christian in Iraq or Afghanistan and let me know how that works out for you
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my point is that there is a huge list of other sins that are clearly a choice and I don't see many threads about them. Why would you draw the conclusion I'm OK with first degree murder? On the scale of sins which one do you think is worse...murder or homosexuality?
I don't draw that conclusion. The point was that this issue is covered in one of those pesky commandments you claim is irrelevant.
I personally think that murder is worse. But, that's just me. I'm not the Almighty.
In case you've forgotton our country allows freedom of religion
It's a secular and non-religious government that allows you to express your faith freely
Try being an "out of the closet" Christian in Iraq or Afghanistan and let me know how that works out for you
Our government isn't non-religious. It has Judeo-Christian roots. However, there are safeguards to ensure that practice of faith is voluntary, not of government mandate.
Even with those roots, our government STILL allows you to express your views on homosexuality that opposes that of the Christian faith.
Try being an "out of the closet" supporters of "gay rights"/homosexuality in Iraq or Afghanistan and see how that works out for YOU.
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I don't draw that conclusion. The point was that this issue is covered in one of those pesky commandments you claim is irrelevant. I personally think that murder is worse. But, that's just me. I'm not the Almighty.
I'm aware of that which I why I made the point on the prior page. I guess God must think making graven images and not honoring your parents is a bigger problem than homosexuality too.
Our government isn't non-religious. It has Judeo-Christian roots. However, there are safeguards to ensure that practice of faith is voluntary, not of government mandate.
Even with those roots, our government STILL allows you to express your views on homosexuality that opposes that of the Christian faith.
Try being an "out of the closet" supporters of "gay rights"/homosexuality in Iraq or Afghanistan and see how that works out for YOU.
well this is something we'll never agree on. Christians think this country was founded on Judeo-Christian roots but the founders were mostly Diest and some were likely atheist. This country was in no way founded on Christian principles and this thread will go to infinity arguing that point with me knowing I'm right and showing proof that you will ignore and you doing the same. Your proof will be much weaker and specious but still you'll cling to it while ignoring obvious examples that completely destroy your premise. I'd rather spend my life doing something else
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The coach was just caught looking at "sticky studs" on the gay board