Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Shawdow on March 19, 2009, 10:33:27 PM
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i saw in another thread you were doing 35 sets for shoulders, how many sets do you do for other bodyparts? :o
whats your rest between sets? to exhaust a muscle like you said you could just do a couple of huge dropsets, what do you think?
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why not do 100 sets?
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why not do 100 sets?
exactly
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why not do 100 sets?
i do as many sets it takes untill doing more reps doesnt increase the size of my muscle. if my muscle keeps swelling with more and more sets, then ill keep going untill it stops swelling. shoulders happen to take alor of sets before they are stretched to the max. my biceps on the other hand can be pumped in porbably 12-15 sets if i go hard enough
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lol
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i do as many sets it takes untill doing more reps doesnt increase the size of my muscle. if my muscle keeps swelling with more and more sets, then ill keep going untill it stops swelling. shoulders happen to take alor of sets before they are stretched to the max. my biceps on the other hand can be pumped in porbably 12-15 sets if i go hard enough
Are you saying you can visually see a difference in your muscles with every set you do?
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Are you saying you can visually see a difference in your muscles with every set you do?
are you questioning the science behind tbombz methods? ;D
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I'm gonna call bullshit on 35 sets....
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I'm gonna call bullshit on 35 sets....
x2
totally uncalled for if true.
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are you questioning the science behind tbombz methods? ;D
It sounds like that is what he is claiming, I just want to know if it's true.
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Are you saying you can visually see a difference in your muscles with every set you do?
not see but feel
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not see but feel
So you "feel" your muscles getting bigger with every set?
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i do as many sets it takes untill doing more reps doesnt increase the size of my muscle. if my muscle keeps swelling with more and more sets, then ill keep going untill it stops swelling. shoulders happen to take alor of sets before they are stretched to the max. my biceps on the other hand can be pumped in porbably 12-15 sets if i go hard enough
Unless you have the worst genetics in the world, your bi's don't need 12-15 sets to grow. Ditto on the 35+ sets for shoulders. You do that much on shoulders, your rotators and joints will be fried by 35 years old, and probably before.
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candy, you have lost the plot it seems.
you used be be one of the brightest minds on getbig too :-\
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theres a difference between "need" and "optimal"
right now im training the way most top professional bodybuilders would tell you to train. i go untill i feel like the muscle is as full and stretched and as beat up as possible.
secondly i would advise anyone who would doubt the effectiveness of a high volume routine to read up on how exactly training triggers muscle growth. and if your one to just listen to the theories of others wich are based on no science (mentzer, yates, etc)....well, learn some science. at the end of the day the science shows that you beat the fuck out of muscle as hard as you can, and thats what makes it grow.
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theres a difference between "need" and "optimal"
There is?
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There is?
if your being serious thats extremely ignorant
for example, in order to prevent nitrogen losses and malnutrition, a hard training bodybuilder only needs to consume about 50 grams of protein per day. however, in order to grow muscle at an optimal pace (fastest possible pace), protien intake would need to be much higher than 50grams per day.
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if your being serious thats extremely ignorant
for example, in order to prevent nitrogen losses and malnutrition, a hard training bodybuilder only needs to consume about 50 grams of protein per day. however, in order to grow muscle at an optimal pace (fastest possible pace), protien intake would need to be much higher than 50grams per day.
That's a ridiculous example. A sedentary person needs 50g of protein per day. A "hard training bodybuilder" cannot grow on 50g a day. Not in an optimal fashion, not in any fashion period. Pick a better example next time.
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That's a ridiculous example. A sedentary person needs 50g of protein per day. A "hard training bodybuilder" cannot grow on 50g a day. Not in an optimal fashion, not in any fashion period. Pick a better example next time.
didnt danny padilla only consume like less than 100 g of protein per day
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c bass eats very little protein, and looks quite good for a 60 year old guy
(http://www.cbass.com/IMAGES/Clarence_Chal1.jpg)
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didnt danny padilla only consume like less than 100 g of protein per day
Less then 60g (I think). It was when he was training for one of the O's - I think the 1981 but I could be wrong.
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35 sets in not enough............40-60 sets should be done for each of the three deltoid heads.
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That's a ridiculous example. A sedentary person needs 50g of protein per day. A "hard training bodybuilder" cannot grow on 50g a day. Not in an optimal fashion, not in any fashion period. Pick a better example next time.
its not rediculous. in fact its perfect. alll a bodybuilder "needs" to eat is 50 grams or so. but what a bodybuilder has to eat for "optimal" is different than what a bodybuilder "needs".
and a sedentary person actually needs more protein than a hard training bodybuilder (in order to remain out of a nitrogen defecit and avoid malnutrition).
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forgive me fellas (wes, you seem to be the man on this forum) but 40-60 sets? do you mean reps? i mean thats a ridiculous amout of effort from the rotator cuff no? i couldnt imagine doing more than 4 for each head (12 total).
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forgive me fellas (wes, you seem to be the man on this forum) but 40-60 sets? do you mean reps? i mean thats a ridiculous amout of effort from the rotator cuff no? i couldnt imagine doing more than 4 for each head (12 total).
Did you notice the sarcasm?
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clearly, i did not. going back to lurking now...
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Less then 60g (I think). It was when he was training for one of the O's - I think the 1981 but I could be wrong.
Please produce links, i don't find that believable without them.
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total sets should be no more than 10-12 for large bodyparts
8 sets or so for smaller bodyparts
you should be in and out of the gym in no more than an hour sometimes 45 minutes
Lee Haney always said..... "stimulate don't annihilate" you don't beat a muscle up with 35 sets...... coax it into growing with 10-12 sets! IMHO
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Less then 60g (I think). It was when he was training for one of the O's - I think the 1981 but I could be wrong.
Rimbaud is right...... it was 60-80 grams of protein and Padilla would take in higher carbs...... he was following the lead of Mentzer who believed in lower amounts of protein and higher intake of carbs. I know I read that as well.
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Please produce links, i don't find that believable without them.
pumpster I read that Padilla did keep his protein lower and carbs higher
he actaully reached his best ever condition with this dieting philosophy.
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Did you notice the sarcasm?
I was serious!!
(more sarcasm of course) LOL :)
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wes if you had done 15 sets for shoulders and youve been going very heavy and hitting failure on about every set and repping in the 8-12 range..., and you noticed on your 15th set that your shoulders werent fatigued yet, that the blood was still pumping harder and harder into the delts, that you felt like you had alot more left in your delts. would you stop at 15 or keep going? what if you felt that way after 25 sets? 30?
:)
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wes if you had done 15 sets for shoulders and youve been going very heavy and hitting failure on about every set and repping in the 8-12 range..., and you noticed on your 15th set that your shoulders werent fatigued yet, that the blood was still pumping harder and harder into the delts, that you felt like you had alot more left in your delts. would you stop at 15 or keep going? what if you felt that way after 25 sets? 30?
:)
no offense tbombz, but the answer to your question depends on what it is that triggers hypertrophy. I doubt that "feeling" a muscle blow-up is indicative of hypertrophy, unless ofcourse you have evidence for this. We should never go by feeling, just because we feel like it... only if the science, or solid experience says it is true (I say experience because the 'science' of bodybuilding is relatively poorly researched).
What I am trying to say is that something may seem intuitively right, but it may in fact be totally wrong! For example, some one may feel, as many novice trainers do, that working out each muscle everyday produces the best training results. But ofcourse we know that the science and experience goes contrary to this. Now we await the evidence for "feeling" the pump in the muscle and its correlation to hypertrophy 8)
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If you've been doing this.........
wes if you had done 15 sets for shoulders and youve been going very heavy and hitting failure on about every set and repping in the 8-12 range...,
This wouldn't be possible........ ;)
and you noticed on your 15th set that your shoulders werent fatigued yet, that the blood was still pumping harder and harder into the delts, that you felt like you had alot more left in your delts. would you stop at 15 or keep going? what if you felt that way after 25 sets? 30?
:)
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no offense tbombz, but the answer to your question depends on what it is that triggers hypertrophy. I doubt that "feeling" a muscle blow-up is indicative of hypertrophy, unless ofcourse you have evidence for this. We should never go by feeling, just because we feel like it... only if the science, or solid experience says it is true (I say experience because the 'science' of bodybuilding is relatively poorly researched).
What I am trying to say is that something may seem intuitively right, but it may in fact be totally wrong! For example, some one may feel, as many novice trainers do, that working out each muscle everyday produces the best training results. But ofcourse we know that the science and experience goes contrary to this. Now we await the evidence for "feeling" the pump in the muscle and its correlation to hypertrophy 8)
i agree with you very much.
research the science behind what triggers hypertrophy. trauma to the muscle. beat the shit out of the mother fucker. thats what does it, thats what kick starts the process and activates satellite cells and ramps up sarcoplasm volume and triggers all sorts of various anabolic pathways and signals for all kinds of various anabolic hormones.
the question is, how much trauma is too much ? well i think that as long as you keep feeling increasingly swole and energetic as the sets go on, then you havent done too much yet.
some days it will be after 15 sets, sometimes 35. thats a refelection of changing nutrient intake, changing hormonal levels, rest between last workout, etc etc.
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You have to develop a better mind/muscle connection if you are going sloely by "feel".........otherwise ,you might end up in the gym doing delts for days!!
::)
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Please produce links, i don't find that believable without them.
I remember reading this in Flex or something about five years ago. I'll dig around & see what I can find though.
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Please produce links, i don't find that believable without them.
According to the link below it was around 80 grams.
http://strength-oldschool.com/forum/index.php?topic=343.0
However, I could swear the article I read said he went even lower. But like I said I read it five or so years ago.
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i agree with you very much.
research the science behind what triggers hypertrophy. trauma to the muscle. beat the shit out of the mother fucker. thats what does it, thats what kick starts the process and activates satellite cells and ramps up sarcoplasm volume and triggers all sorts of various anabolic pathways and signals for all kinds of various anabolic hormones.
the question is, how much trauma is too much ? well i think that as long as you keep feeling increasingly swole and energetic as the sets go on, then you havent done too much yet.
some days it will be after 15 sets, sometimes 35. thats a refelection of changing nutrient intake, changing hormonal levels, rest between last workout, etc etc.
candy studies are showing that volume has to be moderate and not excessive for maximum hypertrophy. You are hindering your gains by the excessive volume, and limiting growth. Check out the meta study thread i started and click the full paper for details. 8)
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i agree with you very much.
research the science behind what triggers hypertrophy. trauma to the muscle. beat the shit out of the mother fucker. thats what does it, thats what kick starts the process and activates satellite cells and ramps up sarcoplasm volume and triggers all sorts of various anabolic pathways and signals for all kinds of various anabolic hormones.
the question is, how much trauma is too much ? well i think that as long as you keep feeling increasingly swole and energetic as the sets go on, then you havent done too much yet.
some days it will be after 15 sets, sometimes 35. thats a refelection of changing nutrient intake, changing hormonal levels, rest between last workout, etc etc.
I am in agreement.
Some days I have more in the tank than others, and I always empty that bitch.
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You have to develop a better mind/muscle connection if you are going sloely by "feel".........otherwise ,you might end up in the gym doing delts for days!!
::)
i dont understand what your trying to say, although i do understand that you didnt answer the question i asked you.
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i dont understand what your trying to say, although i do understand that you didnt answer the question i asked you.
What I mean is that if it takes you that many sets to feel your shoulders have done enough work,your mind/muscle connection must suck or you just don`t know how to train..........I`ll go with my latter assumption.
Way too many uneccesary sets dude...........trust me,somethings wrong.
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What I mean is that if it takes you that many sets to feel your shoulders have done enough work,your mind/muscle connection must suck or you just don`t know how to train..........I`ll go with my latter assumption.
Way too many uneccesary sets dude...........trust me,somethings wrong.
LOL, he won't listen or learn, but you are right. :)
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LOL, he won't listen or learn, but you are right. :)
I know,he never listens to me.............or anyone else either!
Oh well ! :)
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What I mean is that if it takes you that many sets to feel your shoulders have done enough work,your mind/muscle connection must suck or you just don`t know how to train..........I`ll go with my latter assumption.
Way too many uneccesary sets dude...........trust me,somethings wrong.
oh....i get it... so because one thing might be true for you, then you assume it has to be true for everyone else.
thats cool, i wouldnt expect much else from you, old men are always stubborn and hard headed...and your what, like 70 now? dont worry grandpa you can fantasize about how in your day you were able to outlift me... ;D just kidding i love you wes
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oh....i get it... so because one thing might be true for you, then you assume it has to be true for everyone else.
thats cool, i wouldnt expect much else from you, old men are always stubborn and hard headed...and your what, like 70 now? dont worry grandpa you can fantasize about how in your day you were able to outlift me... ;D just kidding i love you wes
candy seriously have you read that meta study?
it clearly shows medium volume being better for hypertrophy than low or high by quite a margin.
what is your thoughts on this regarding your clearly high volume approach?
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i agree with chaos man if your going pretty much all out for 15 or so sets your not going to feel like you can do another 15. 30+ sets to me means either you have alot of warm up sets or you arent really pushing yourself weight wise on most of them.
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oh....i get it... so because one thing might be true for you, then you assume it has to be true for everyone else.
thats cool, i wouldnt expect much else from you, old men are always stubborn and hard headed...and your what, like 70 now? dont worry grandpa you can fantasize about how in your day you were able to outlift me... ;D just kidding i love you wes
I love you too kid!! LOL :)
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candy seriously have you read that meta study?
it clearly shows medium volume being better for hypertrophy than low or high by quite a margin.
The study's just confirms common sense. It's the sprinter analogy-take an up-close look at the size of thighs on women sprinters; the hear to training's full-intensity sprints analagous to sets. I used to be a sprinter and can vouch for the similarities.
Doing more volume's just putting off the work-some things are immutable truths for everyone, it's not an individual thing-you can't work out extremely hard AND long especially for purposes of increasing size. One or the other of those two has to be compromised, or both.
Someone who is doing excessive volume is either too lazy to get to business faster and burn the muscle out and/or likes the flow of long workouts without excessive stress, or is grinding the muscle down with endless sets of volume with what amounts to endurance work and diminishing returns. Fine as personal preferences, but admit that it's a personal bias in terms of training.
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The study's just confirms common sense. It's the sprinter analogy-take an up-close look at the size of thighs on women sprinters; the hear to training's full-intensity sprints analagous to sets. I used to be a sprinter and can vouch for the similarities.
Doing more volume's just putting off the work-some things are immutable truths for everyone, it's not an individual thing-you can't work out extremely hard AND long especially for purposes of increasing size. One or the other of those two has to be compromised, or both.
Someone who is doing excessive volume is either too lazy to get to business faster and burn the muscle out and/or likes the flow of long workouts without excessive stress, or is grinding the muscle down with endless sets of volume with what amounts to endurance work and diminishing returns. Fine as personal preferences, but admit that it's a personal bias in terms of training.
i think you are right, personally i hate high volume, it burns me out, my strength stagnates, and i lose interest having to workout for 2 hours+ every workout.
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candy seriously have you read that meta study?
it clearly shows medium volume being better for hypertrophy than low or high by quite a margin.
what is your thoughts on this regarding your clearly high volume approach?
The study's just confirms common sense. It's the sprinter analogy-take an up-close look at the size of thighs on women sprinters; the hear to training's full-intensity sprints analagous to sets. I used to be a sprinter and can vouch for the similarities.
Doing more volume's just putting off the work-some things are immutable truths for everyone, it's not an individual thing-you can't work out extremely hard AND long especially for purposes of increasing size. One or the other of those two has to be compromised, or both.
Someone who is doing excessive volume is either too lazy to get to business faster and burn the muscle out and/or likes the flow of long workouts without excessive stress, or is grinding the muscle down with endless sets of volume with what amounts to endurance work and diminishing returns. Fine as personal preferences, but admit that it's a personal bias in terms of training.
i think you are right, personally i hate high volume, it burns me out, my strength stagnates, and i lose interest having to workout for 2 hours+ every workout.
i read your meta study you posted. i understand the mechanics behind why resistance exercise signals muscle growth, and there isnt any science FACT on any routine as being "perfect". understanding how exercise promotes growth, ive come to my own conclusion that the old weider "instinctive training principle" is probably the closest to 'perfect' that anybody will be able to achieve. that one workout that the original poster is questioning, where i did 35 sets for shoulders, isnt an everyday workout. some days ill just do mayb 15 sets. i stop training when i feel that my msucles are geting any more stimulation out of it. on that particular day every set i did mydelts were gettign fuller, more pumped, and feeling more on fire in a good way. so i kept lifting untill i did a set that didnt make my delts mroe pumped and full. at that point i knew i wasnt adding any more growth stimulation.
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Taylor,back in the day,in the old Muscular Development magazines,then editor John Grimek used to say to do as many sets as it took to get the muscle pumped up and cogested with blood.
He said that once you reach this point,you should stop because anymore work would cause you to actually lose the pump and you would reach the point of diminishing returns.
Anyway,all bull shit aside,if it works, use it..........I would.
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john grimeck sounds like a smart guy :)
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LOL at getbigs teenage expert. Maybe I'll do 35 sets to see if my shoulders blow up ::)
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LOL at getbigs teenage expert. Maybe I'll do 35 sets to see if my shoulders blow up ::)
my last shoulder workout i think i did 13 or 14 sets.. my shoulders were done..
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Taylor,back in the day,in the old Muscular Development magazines,then editor John Grimek used to say to do as many sets as it took to get the muscle pumped up and cogested with blood.
He said that once you reach this point,you should stop because anymore work would cause you to actually lose the pump and you would reach the point of diminishing returns.
Anyway,all bull shit aside,if it works, use it..........I would.
Exactly - everyone can complain about someone else's training but the reality is if it works do it..if it doesn't don't!
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i do as many sets it takes until doing more reps doesn't increase the size of my muscle. if my muscle keeps swelling with more and more sets, then ill keep going untill it stops swelling. shoulders happen to take a lot of sets before they are stretched to the max. my biceps on the other hand can be pumped in probably 12-15 sets if i go hard enough
Have you tried HIT? 6-8 sets...3-4 of them to utter failure utilizing drops, rest-pause, forced and negatives...same effect but much less volume.
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Have you tried HIT? 6-8 sets...3-4 of them to utter failure utilizing drops, rest-pause, forced and negatives...same effect but much less volume.
a year ago my training partner was a bodybuilder who was taught HIT directly from mentzer, was a good friend of his actually. thats how we trained.
it didnt work for me.
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a year ago my training partner was a bodybuilder who was taught HIT directly from mentzer, was a good friend of his actually. thats how we trained.
it didnt work for me.
Fair enough I have heard a few say the same...