Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: mesmorph78 on April 20, 2009, 04:05:38 PM
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these were taken with a cell a lil fuzzy .
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/20042009014-1.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/lucas78/20042009018-1.jpg)
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look great dude
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Horseshoe city!!!!!
Huge guns!
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thanks guys.. really appreciate the compliments...
i think my tria ae a weakpoin in comparision to my bis... thoough people say no but that how i percieve it.. but thx for the shoutouts really appreciate it
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great horse shoes!
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not yet need more thickness
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BIG - props
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Arm training & measurement vids as discussed? :o
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soon ...busy busy busy
as im typin thin havin a lil breakfast before work....
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soon ...busy busy busy
as im typin thin havin a lil breakfast before work....
You do bis and tris on the same day right?
Can you detail your workout? I mix up what I do for arms regularly.
Like you I hit them twice a week, but one of the times is just a light day tho (relatively).
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You do bis and tris on the same day right?
Can you detail your workout? I mix up what I do for arms regularly.
Like you I hit them twice a week, but one of the times is just a light day tho (relatively).
There is no reason not to hit each muscle twice weekly, each time just as hard. Most top BBs over the last 50 years used twice weekly and many did the same workout each time.
It's in vogue now and believed by many that workouts should change from one workout to the next. Another popular belief is hitting the muscle once weekly. Neither is proven as essential or as most effective. Nothing wrong with varying the workouts but in no way is that necessary or even as good from my own experience-working the muscle hard and pushing yourself to do more than you could previously is the bottom line IMO, it trumps all the other stuff. Or as Arnold said: the muscle's not used to the 6th, 7th and 8th reps. Scott used the same routine, and Schwarzenegger says he only changed his routines once a year.
He already listed the exercises elsewhere but maybe when he's less busy he could relist along with the videos. That would be a good combo. ;)
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gotta agree. top-level PLs have marathon workouts that are ME/DE days where you're basically hitting everything twice. i was even doing heavy-ish benching plus all the assistance twice a week without it killing me.
as long as you're not idiotic and shattering your CNS, it's possible (if not optimal) to do things twice a week.
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You do bis and tris on the same day right?
Can you detail your workout? I mix up what I do for arms regularly.
Like you I hit them twice a week, but one of the times is just a light day tho (relatively).
yeah twice a week....
monday is arms day... i hit bis first then tris
these days it would be
Bis
cable curls 4 sets
alternate dumbell curls 4 sets
preacher curls 4 sets
Hammer curls 4 sets
*no olympic bar curls wrist injury
tris
pressdowns 4 sets
seated french press /extensions 4 sets
two arm dumbel extensions 4 sets
pressdowns with the balbe rows handle knuckles facing 4 sets *for the outer head
then rope extensions 4 sets
*sometimes i throw close grips in there and sometimes i do lying extensions in stead of seated extensions
then bis again on thursday after back
and tris on friday after delts
the second workouts are not as heavy as the monday arm workout or less volumn
made good gains hittin them this way as my chest shoulders and back grow super fast... i do this to keep the arms up there with them
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yeah twice a week....
monday is arms day... i hit bis first then tris
these days it would be
Bis
cable curls 4 sets
alternate dumbell curls 4 sets
preacher curls 4 sets
Hammer curls 4 sets
*no olympic bar curls wrist injury
tris
pressdowns 4 sets
seated french press /extensions 4 sets
two arm dumbel extensions 4 sets
pressdowns with the balbe rows handle knuckles facing 4 sets *for the outer head
then rope extensions 4 sets
*sometimes i throw close grips in there and sometimes i do lying extensions in stead of seated extensions
then bis again on thursday after back
and tris on friday after delts
the second workouts are not as heavy as the monday arm workout or less volumn
made good gains hittin them this way as my chest shoulders and back grow super fast... i do this to keep the arms up there with them
Cool, thanks a lot.
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In no way is that much volume necessary, especially since alot of the exercises overlap and could instead be done as substitutes on other days-i've never seen a pro doing something like this. Maraton high volume workouts are only of added value for contest refinement and cutting, but even then there are other ways to get that effect.
The main advantage of volume is for some people, psychological. Some enjoy marathon workouts, but having been there and done that for years I can say that lower volume is just as enjoyable because it means higher intensity, a higher degree of mental involvement and greater mind-muscle connections that can't be maintained to the same degree over longer workouts-longer workouts become more about endurance, which does not help size.
At the end of day, my muscles are still just as fried without the marathon workouts, which physically are a waste of time. ;)
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In no way is that much volume necessary, especially since alot of the exercises overlap and could instead be done as substitutes on other days. Maraton high volume workouts are only of added value for contest refinement and cutting, but even then there are other ways to get that effect.
The main advantage of volume is for some people, psychological. Some enjoy marathon workouts, but having been there and done that for years I can say that lower volume is just as enjoyable because it means higher intensity, a higher degree of mental involvement and greater mind-muscle connections that can't be maintained to the same degree over longer workouts-longer workouts become more about endurance, which does not help size.
At the end of day, my muscles are still just as fried without the marathon workouts, which physically are a waste of time. ;)
He clearly has superior recovery genetics. When I first started and did similar things for the first year, i.e. 6 days a week, I made ZERO progress.
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He clearly has superior recovery genetics. When I first started and did similar things for the first year, i.e. 6 days a week, I made ZERO progress.
What it is is that when the genetics and work ethic are good, you'll still see growth even when the training is off, just as guys like Oliva grew even earlier in their careers when the training methods weren't quite right.
In order to maximize potential you have to learn to train more efficiently, just as it took Schwarzenegger a degree of trial and error to bring the calves up. Muscle can still be built without hitting them in the most efficient manner.
The degree of redundancy used by meso is not seen by pros, no one is doing this.
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What it is is that when the genetics and work ethic are good, you'll still see growth even when the training is off, just as guys like Oliva grew even earlier in their careers when the training methods weren't quite right.
The degree of redundancy used by meso is not seen by pros, no one is doing this.
I honestly have made the best progress from 3x a week, 45 minutes to an hour tops, regardless of training style.
The other thing I notice about his arm workout is the massive about of sets for such small muscles like the triceps and biceps. Seems like overkill to me. He probably would be even bigger if he did an intense 3 day a week routine.
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I honestly have made the best progress from 3x a week, 45 minutes to an hour tops, regardless of training style.
The other thing I notice about his arm workout is the massive about of sets for such small muscles like the triceps and biceps. Seems like overkill to me. He probably would be even bigger if he did an intense 3 day a week routine.
I used 3 times a week for years and years, getting good results. I had to force myself to try only twice a week just to compare. You should do same, after giving each approach at least a few months each and of course add in extra protein thru eating or supplements because it's true about the general rule that it takes about a 10 lb. "good" bodyweight gain to gain an inch in arm size.
In either case, shorter intense workouts hit the spot, go to positive failure most of the time (no wasted sets going thru the motions, each one should wear out the muscle) and here and there throw in one or two sets of negative failure using a spotter if possible, from time to time. The muscle has to respond to that type of adversity by adapting thru growth.
Bottom line on muscle growth is increasing reps/weight over a period of time, a slow trend upwards, not doing huge numbers of sets, which skews adaptation more towards endurance and refinement.
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I used 3 times a week for years and years, getting good results. I had to force myself to try only twice a week just to compare. You should do same, after giving each approach at least a few months each and of course add in extra protein thru eating or supplements because it's true about the general rule that it takes about a 10 lb. "good" bodyweight gain to gain an inch in arm size.
In either case, shorter intense workouts hit the spot, go to positive failure most of the time and here and there throw in a few sets of negative failure using a spotter if possible. The muscle has to respond to that type of adversity by adapting thru growth.
On a fullbody HST routine though, would you recommend training to failure?
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On a fullbody HST routine though, would you recommend training to failure?
Whatever the program i think failure training at least in some sets is essential, regardless of what they say. Just because someone designs a program does not mean they have all the answers, especially these days with so many new programs that are simply variations on existing themes.
Change mentally or physically is a bitch..change is hard. The body doesn't want to change, will only do so when forced to, through trauma it isn't used to (increasing res/weight over time). If you don't go to failure you're essentially maintaining status quo, what the body can already achieve.
What i'm describing is the heart of progressive resistance, an established proven foundation for gains - have to up the reps/weight over time thru hard work, doesn't happen by accident.
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Whatever the program i think failure training at least in some sets is essential, regardless of what they say. Just because someone designs a program does not mean they have all the answers, especially these days with so many new programs that are simply variations on existing themes.
Change mentally or physically is a bitch..change is hard. The body doesn't want to change, will only do so when forced to, through trauma it isn't used to (increasing res/weight over time). If you don't go to failure you're essentially maintaining status quo, what the body can already achieve.
What i'm describing is the heart of progressive resistance, an established proven foundation for gains - have to up the reps/weight over time thru hard work, doesn't happen by accident.
Ok, but what about on a diet? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.
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Here's an example, taken from Friday and Saturday exercises...
Just as sore as when i used to do marathon volume, and more enjoyable due to the greater intensity and focus on each set-every set counts, no more marathon workouts that are too much about improving muscle endurance. The bottom line is to increase reps/weight over a period of weeks/months:
Excluding warmups, no wasted sets - each set taken to positive failure, then 1 set set of each exercise taken to negative failure using additional cheat reps when strict reps aren't possible. 1 minute between sets:
Lats:
-3 x 10-12 reps, Hammer Strength pulldown.
-3 x 10 leverage rowing, Flex Leverage rowing machine.
Tris:
-3 x 6-10 bent over cable extensions.
-2 x 20 dip machine.
Bis:
-3 x 6-8 reps, Flex Leverage preacher bench.
-2 x 6-8 reps standing cable curls.
Of course you can add in a couple more sets of something else if desired, you get the idea.
Realize full potential and efficiency:
-Full intensity and concentration on EACH set.
-Must find the BEST most EFFECTIVE exercises that really hit the muscle thru trial and error. What the books says are only guidelines, not always accurate. Some machines are great and better than weights, some are not and sometimes weights are best.
-Slow upwards progression in reps/weight over time.
-Good nutrition to facilitate "good" bodyweight gain.
Each muscle hit twice weekly is probably best. Also try thrice, each for a few months and compare results.
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i used to train 3 days a week
monday legs..
wednesday back and shoulders
friday chest and arms
it was ok at the time early into my training life...
but once i learned how to train properly and kill my muscles... that split couldnt work
what WORKS for me is volumn training.... everyone is different
heavy volumn training works for me.... which is why i make gains yearly and in person why my actal quality of muscle.. is good
some people do less sets and thrive i do more sets...and i train VERY hard
its all about finding what works best for you
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Here's an example, taken from Friday and Saturday exercises...
Just as sore as when i used to do marathon volume, and more enjoyable actually, due to the greater focus on each set-every set counts. The bottom line is to increase reps/weight over a period of weeks/months:
Excluding warmups, no wasted sets - each set taken to positive failure, then 1 set set of each exercise taken to negative failure using additional cheat reps when strict reps aren't possible. 1 minute between sets:
Lats:
-3 x 10-12 reps, Hammer Strength pulldown.
-3 x 10 leverage rowing, Flex Leverage rowing machine.
Tris:
-3 x 6-10 bent over cable extensions.
-2 x 20 dip machine.
Bis:
-3 x 6-8 reps, Flex Leverage preacher bench.
-2 x 6-8 reps standing cable curls.
Realize full potential and efficiency:
-Full intensity and concentration on EACH set.
-Must find the best exercises that really hit the muscle, thru trial and error. Some machines are great and better than weights, some are not and sometimes weights are best.
-Slow upwards progression in reps/weight over time.
-Good nutrition to facilitate "good" bodyweight gain.
Each muscle hit twice weekly is probably best. Also try thrice, each for a few months and compare results.
see if i did that for tris
bent over cable
and machine dips...
i wouldnt feel anything even if i did 50 reps per set....
if i did 10 even worse....
it all come down to being different... not patting myself on the back but few pople actually are able to keep up.... my muscles are just condiyiponed for endurance...
low volumn... never works for me......works for a few people i have trained with but not me
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see if i did that for tris
bent over cable
and machine dips...
i wouldnt feel anything even if i did 50 reps per set....
if i did 10 even worse....
it all come down to being different... not patting myself on the back but few pople actually are able to keep up.... my muscles are just condiyiponed for endurance...
low volumn... never works for me......works for a few people i have trained with but not me
Ah but you are doing just that. Nothing new there.
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pumpster i actually love to train with you
there must be something different your doing
why you can still get sore for 3 sets of over cable extensions and 3 sets of dips...
im always open to learn..maybe the next time i visit the states
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pumpster i actually love to train with you
there must be something different your doing
why you can still get sore for 3 sets of over cable extensions and 3 sets of dips...
im always open to learn..maybe the next time i visit the states
You are arrogant as hell.
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question regarding that dip machince you posted pumpster.. do you sit facing the stack or away...
after years of pronouncing machine dips worthless
i tried sitting facing away knuckles facing.. and that really smoked my outer tri head....
how do u use it
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You are arrogant as hell.
maybe youre the arrogant here?
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maybe youre the arrogant here?
Quite the oppositie. Notice how our genetic wonder slips in the self-serving compliments every now and then...
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pumpster i actually love to train with you
there must be something different your doing
why you can still get sore for 3 sets of over cable extensions and 3 sets of dips...
im always open to learn..maybe the next time i visit the states
Ya man, let's do that.
In the meantime anyone who wants to talk pm me and we'll talk on the phone or even better especially for overseas use skype.com for free. Much better than emails - more efficient. ;D
I'm still sore from 5-6 sets a muscle. :D
It's choosing the right, best exercises - the best machines or whatever else works for you-plus tremendous intensity to and beyond failure, and focus - somewhere between HIT and volume. You can always add 2-3 more sets, make it 8-9 sets instead of 5-6 if desired, or add more exercises while doing less sets for each exercise in order to keep total sets the same.
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Quite the oppositie. Notice how our genetic wonder slips in the self-serving compliments every now and then...
Meso Z strikes me as clearly in the young n beligerent phase, though of course he's blissfully unaware of it. A few years more that will probably change as the testosterone subsides a little, as it does for most. ;)
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question regarding that dip machince you posted pumpster.. do you sit facing the stack or away...
after years of pronouncing machine dips worthless
i tried sitting facing away knuckles facing.. and that really smoked my outer tri head....
how do u use it
In a Flex mag where they followed Phil Heath around, he did the machine dips front to back, and he said he could really feel them on his outerhead.
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question regarding that dip machince you posted pumpster.. do you sit facing the stack or away...
after years of pronouncing machine dips worthless
i tried sitting facing away knuckles facing.. and that really smoked my outer tri head....
how do u use it
I've used it in both directions, both are good and slightly different.
My experience is exactly that of Heath-it's brought out the outer medial horseshoe more now after all these years than ALL the alternatives done for years and years, such as close-grip bench, pushdowns, dips. The most efficient exercise for that area.
Pushdowns are a classic example of one of the most over-rated exercises that the book says are good but were more or less a waste of time, after decades of doing them. Not efficient. The only good way of doing them with a standard cable attachment is elbows flared out wide-it's like a close-grip bench but better in that case.
Dip machine to me is gold for the outer lateral and medial head. The best i've found.
Tips:
-i've seen a previous universe winner do this when i was a kid and do same - use partial ROM only on dip machine, only the bottom 1/2 or at most 2/3s - this is the meat of the movement that will effect the muscle, plus doing the upper portion of ROM causes more arm flection when bringing the hands closer to the shoulders, more pressure on the elbows and shoulders that can lead to injuries.
-Keep the reps higher 15-25 - again to avoid potential injury plus the outer heads really respond to those high reps.
-Sometimes use a palms facing in grip.
-Some dip machines allow the grips to be moved farther in or out from your torso, try both and see. I like the grips closer.
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volumn works for me tremendously....
icant go what works for someone else i have to go by what works for me....
thats not to say i wont learn about it so i can use it occasionaly
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I've used it in both directions, both good and slightly different.
My experience is exactly that of Heath-it's brought out the outer medial horseshoe more now after all these years than ALL the alternatives done for years and years, such as close-grip bench, pushdowns, dips.
Pushdowns are a classic example of one of the most over-rated exercises that the book says are good but were more or less a waste of time, after decades of doing them. The only good way of doing them with a standard cable attachment is elbows flared out wide-it's like a close-grip bench but better in that case.
Dip machine to me is gold for the outer lateral and medial head. The best i've found.
Tips:
-i've seen a previous universe winner do this when i was a kid and do same - use partial ROM only on dip machine, only the bottom 1/2 or at most 2/3s - this is the meat of the movement that will effect the muscle, plus doing the upper portion of ROM causes more arm flection when bringing the hands closer to the shoulders, more pressure on the elbows and shoulders that can lead to injuries.
-Keep the reps higher 15-25 - again to avoid potential injury plus the outer heads really respond to those high reps.
-Sometimes use a palms facing in grip.
-Some dip machines allow the grips to be moved farther in or out from your torso, try both and see. I like the grips closer.
ill try some of those grips on the dips machine.. tomorrow
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I've noticed guys doing less ROM having better arms than me so maybe there is something to it Pumpster. I believe it for sure on dips.
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I've noticed guys doing less ROM having better arms than me so maybe there is something to it Pumpster. I believe it for sure on dips.
have they been working more than you? What type of weight are they using? Where are they in their workout. I typically use a full range, but as I get more towards the end of the workout, I tend to use less full range. Except for dips, and three point push ups.
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have they been working more than you? What type of weight are they using? Where are they in their workout. I typically use a full range, but as I get more towards the end of the workout, I tend to use less full range. Except for dips, and three point push ups.
Well, to be fair my workouts are far different from theirs but arm strength is about the same. Hammer dips I can handle the same weight, and regular dips I can do a lot of reps. Could be genetics or my inconsistent arm training of late. Likely a combo of everything. I've not yet found the right combo of reps and sets to really get the arms to blow up. I probably need more carbs.
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Well, to be fair my workouts are far different from theirs but arm strength is about the same. Hammer dips I can handle the same weight, and regular dips I can do a lot of reps. Could be genetics or my inconsistent arm training of late. Likely a combo of everything. I've not yet found the right combo of reps and sets to really get the arms to blow up. I probably need more carbs.
For some odd reason, I like doing tons of sets or exercises. I'll do typically six exercises, roughly 3 sets each. Just for the hell of it. Supersetting dips and three point push-ups.
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For some odd reason, I like doing tons of sets or exercises. I'll do typically six exercises, roughly 3 sets each. Just for the hell of it. Supersetting dips and three point push-ups.
This is the classic volume mentality; an emotional preference-get that warm pump goin with a nice even tempo, and keep it. Nothin wrong with that, it works even though it's not that efficient and takes more time-it's something like doing lower intensity treadmill for an hour instead of upping the pace to HIIT or somewhere in between those two extremes and getting it done with sooner. They're all effective it's mainly a psychological preference.
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Did some machine dips oday.. i think i will stick with them for three months. Se if it will bring out the puter tri head even more
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here is the bottom line........what works for meso, may not for pumpster......and vice versa.......samir never trained to failure, neither did ronnie and neither did Arnold or Franco.......
Dorian trained to failure......mentzer trained to failure most of the time.
Waller trained to about 90 percent of failure as did Bill Pearl.
I think 1 set is not enough but 20-25 sets is way too much.....IMHO
Everyone is different.....use the system that works best for YOU and only You!!!
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here is the bottom line........what works for meso, may not for pumpster......and vice versa.......samir never trained to failure, neither did ronnie and neither did Arnold or Franco.......
Dorian trained to failure......mentzer trained to failure most of the time.
Waller trained to about 90 percent of failure as did Bill Pearl.
I think 1 set is not enough but 20-25 sets is way too much.....IMHO
Everyone is different.....use the system that works best for YOU and only You!!!
BS Willie..you're using HIT as the definition of failure, which is wrong right out the box. Yates and Menter trained to negative failure, which is more demanding than standard training and is not the standard of hard training.
As far as Schwarzenegger, yes he did train to failure some of the time (t-bar rows, Pumping Iron), and said as much in the movie in saying "the body is not used to the 6th, 7th and 8th reps". Also seen quite clearly in Corney's squat set with Arnold especially last forced rep, as well as Ferrigno's sets in the movie-those were the most inspiring training sequences of the damn movie.
As far as Waller, maybe that's why he didn't have a great physique-he benefitted in several "wins" because he was always one of Weider's boys. Anyone who didn't train to failure we'll never know what their full potential really was even when they looked good-exactly what Sergio confirmed in saying that HIT training with a training partner pushing him and machines brough him to a new level that he wished later he'd continued.
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Did some machine dips oday.. i think i will stick with them for three months. Se if it will bring out the puter tri head even more
I think you would like floor presses too Meso. I did two "heavy" sets today and I got a thick feeling in the outer heads, even at 5 rep sets.
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I've always wondered bout those how do u do those what's the correct techique
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I've always wondered bout those how do u do those what's the correct techique
I wouldn't claim to have perfect technique but I get into a power rack and set the bar low when I lie on the floor it's low enough to unrack. I take a grip where my pinky is inside the smooth ring. I did sets of 5 and worked on keeping the elbows in, more like a PL.
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cool I'll def give these a try
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right now i´m training my tris 3 days after Chest training and also 3 days before the next chest training (on chest day i train my already warmed up front delts to, and after triceps training i´m training my side-shoulders.
I had a long time problem with my left ellbow after doing a lot of (to heavy) french-press in the past 28 yrs. In the last 3 years i decided
only to use the exercises which don´t inflame my ellbows to much (I´m close to 46 yrs old), which are close-grip benchpress, some kind of dip-variations too build general strength/mass, medium-to heavy cable extensions (mass), and some kind of isolation movements like
rope-extensions, 1 arm cable extensions,...
Normally i use 3 different exercises, working up from heavy to medium weights. i also use a lot of Pitt-Force-Training which take a lot of stress from my tendoms...starting with the positive phase of the rep and a controlled negative + a short rest....
example....
1. close grip bench-press (smith machine), 4 -5 warmup sets + 2-3 heavy sets (3-7 reps), starting each rep from the bottom
2. Cable extensions (here a version on an incline bench), relative heavy weights (7-10 reps), 2 warm-up before
3. rope-extensions (pitt-Force-Set, around 15-25 reps), 1 warm-up before
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BS Willie..you're using HIT as the definition of failure, which is wrong right out the box. Yates and Menter trained to negative failure, which is more demanding than standard training and is not the standard of hard training.
As far as Schwarzenegger, yes he did train to failure some of the time (t-bar rows, Pumping Iron), and said as much in the movie in saying "the body is not used to the 6th, 7th and 8th reps". Also seen quite clearly in Corney's squat set with Arnold especially last forced rep, as well as Ferrigno's sets in the movie-those were the most inspiring training sequences of the damn movie.
As far as Waller, maybe that's why he didn't have a great physique-he benefitted in several "wins" because he was always one of Weider's boys. Anyone who didn't train to failure we'll never know what their full potential really was even when they looked good-exactly what Sergio confirmed in saying that HIT training with a training partner pushing him and machines brough him to a new level that he wished later he'd continued.
pumpster.......you are getting a little too technical......Arnold spent time with arthur jones.....it did not go well.....he and arthur did not see eye to eye.....Arnold did not believe in going to failure.....Arnold believed in volume training......Arnold said that he lost size while in florida and that he didn't care for nautilus machines......I have heard from people that this was the truth......Bill Pearl did not train to failure.....he felt that 90 percent of failure was on track.....as did Ferrigno......Waller was not Weiders boy like Arnold and Franco were......so I am calling BS on you.......HIT is not the end all be all......genetics and the ability to recover from training is more important. Mentzer did not use Arthur's system until later in his bodybuilding career. Sorry to disagree with you but it is well documented. Many other champs did not go to failure either......Shawn Ray.....Ronnie.......doe sn't mean they don't train hard.......don't take it that way.
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the camera was in their face.......of course the director......George Butler wanted them to build up the drama by sreaming and carrying on. Come on Pumpster......that is what sells the movie......DRAMA!!!!!
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Remember that Arnold didn't train heavy after 1975......he got more into feel training.....going for pump and squeezing the contraction......higher reps and not necessarily going to failure.....the way Arthur Jones would want......Yes, Sergio did spend time with Jones as did Viator......but they all went back to their original way of training......Casey Viator even returned to more of a traditional approach to training! How about Serge Nubret......he would grind out set after set and never would go to failure......rather he would perform blood volume training......225 on bench for set after set.......his favorite bicep exercise was concentration curls with 25 pounds.......pumping like a machine....but not to failure.
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pumpster.......you are getting a little too technical......Arnold spent time with arthur jones.....it did not go well.....he and arthur did not see eye to eye.....Arnold did not believe in going to failure.....Arnold believed in volume training......Arnold said that he lost size while in florida and that he didn't care for nautilus machines......I have heard from people that this was the truth......Bill Pearl did not train to failure.....he felt that 90 percent of failure was on track.....as did Ferrigno......Waller was not Weiders boy like Arnold and Franco were......so I am calling BS on you.......HIT is not the end all be all......genetics and the ability to recover from training is more important. Mentzer did not use Arthur's system until later in his bodybuilding career. Sorry to disagree with you but it is well documented. Many other champs did not go to failure either......Shawn Ray.....Ronnie.......doe sn't mean they don't train hard.......don't take it that way.
Team Horrible Genetics approved
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pumpster.......you are getting a little too technical......Arnold spent time with arthur jones.....it did not go well.....he and arthur did not see eye to eye.....Arnold did not believe in going to failure.....Arnold believed in volume training......Arnold said that he lost size while in florida and that he didn't care for nautilus machines......
I will now blow up your latest speculation Willie..here he is quite willing to use the nautilus with Waller at the original Gold's Venice. Does he look like he's taking it easy on the training Willie? lol...sorry willi..FAIL. :D
What confuses many including Willie is that the high volume and 6 day a week, twice a day double-split regimen Schwarzie was famous for was only used during the 3 month refinement and cutting pre-contest phase - even some HIT proponents like Viator favor high volume in that context, but not for building size.
Also like many but not all BBs, Schwarzie didn't necessarily train as hard later in his career-in the case of all those famous BBs what you rarely if ever see is what their training was like when they were building up and relative unknowns. Unfortunately, the videos usually only happen after the fact.
The true warriors don't lose that love of hard training later in life, that's their thing and it shows in their condition in middle-age - Draper, Robinson, Strydom, Padilla, Chris Faldo and Schwarzenegger sometimes - when getting in shape for movies.
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Team Horrible Genetics approved
:D
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I think there is something to be said for cutting back on volume. Some people can recover from a lot of training but the best natural physiques I've seen came from people who lifted with intensity, moderate volume and good nutrition. Most athletes I knew hovering in the 230-260 range and looked like BBers supplemented athletic lifts with roughly 9 sets for arms 2-3x per week. Hard heavy short workouts and they were done.
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I will now blow up your latest speculation Willie..here he is quite willing to use the nautilus with Waller at the original Gold's Venice. Does he look like he's taking it easy on the training Willie? lol...sorry willi..FAIL. :D
What confuses many including Willie is that the high volume and 6 day a week, twice a day double-split regimen Schwarzie was famous for was only used during the 3 month refinement and cutting pre-contest phase - even some HIT proponents like Viator favor high volume in that context, but not for building size.
Also like many but not all BBs, Schwarzie didn't necessarily train as hard later in his career-in the case of all those famous BBs what you rarely if ever see is what their training was like when they were building up and relative unknowns. Unfortunately, the videos usually only happen after the fact.
The true warriors don't lose that love of hard training later in life, that's their thing and it shows in their condition in middle-age - Draper, Robinson, Strydom, Padilla, Chris Faldo and Schwarzenegger sometimes - when getting in shape for movies.
pumpster,
Arnold did not care for Jones or his methods or his machines......you know that from Ironage!
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Arnold trained with Franco briefly and mainly Ed Corney.......I know that Arnold did little training offseason and would clean out the aas during this time as well.....he would remain lean but got rather small.....acting and real estate was what he focused on at that time.......come show time it was back to training. 20 sets higher reps......gaining size and maintaining his leaness. Read Arthur Jones' book....He talks about how Arnold and he did not get along too well. When Arnold returned to California he resumed his traditional training regime.
Boyer Coe and Arnold and Viator all gave HIT a go and decided to stay way from the 1 set theory and go back to a little higher sets......nothing like Defendis and Michalik and their insanity 60 sets.....but higher sets than Jones ever endorsed.
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pumpster,
Arnold did not care for Jones or his methods or his machines......you know that from Ironage!
No offense Willie, but you're brainwashed. My pic single-handedly destroys your assumptions about Arnold, Nautilus and hard training. That pic was taken at Gold's - he didn't have to use that machine nor did Gold's have to have it there unless it was good. Best pullover exercise ever invented that machine. I tried the Nautilus line in '76-77 - some of the machines were good, some were so-so. Like any line of equipment, their value was/is case-by-case.
Most people here on getbig can't stand Iron Age, for at least two reasons - the guy who runs it isn't open-minded even while claiming to be a writer. Writers are known to be willing to let others voice alternate points of view, which Iron Age does not. Plus the conservative point of view is highly biased towards Weider-he's a writer for Flex. Sounds like you didn't know that or are ignoring it for whatever your reasons.
Arnold likely had no problem with Jones, but was Weider's boy and had to follow Joe's lead. It was Weider in various 1973-4 articles who had a problem with Jones. I remember reading them as a teen and even then questioning Weider's motives then because the hostility was way over the top.
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I agree......ironage is a bore because of Perine and many other idiots over there.....but pumpster.....you need to understand I am getting this from Arthur's book....he hated arnold and they almost came to blows.....arnold and jones hated each other....had nothing to do with weider.....but yes....ironage is a bad place because of the brain washing......i can assure you my arnold/jones research was done by reading jones' book.
waller....arnold...samir ...wayne....grymkowski.. ...ferrigno....none of them followed jones......viator yes.....for a brief period.....
Eddie Robinson told me that he worked with anoth jones desciple......ellington darden and said that it was his worst experience and that he would have turned pro sooner than he did......if he had not worked with Darden.....but darden uses Eddie' pictures in his book and acts as though Eddie would endorse this system of training......HE DOESN'T ENDORSE IT AT ALL......jones and the mentzers were on a crusade to cahnge everyone's training. Perine is a moron and he ruined Ironage..... I agrre with you there......Arnold did not follow jones or care for his machines......ask anyone!!!!
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that pic of sergio is while he was in deland, florida with arthur.....
he did go through workouts there....
he then went back to his usual form of working out when he left florida.....same as casey viator.....he did the experiment with arthur but then went back to his original workout regimen.
These pictures are while the jones supervised training was going on in his facility in deland florida.....it was a trial run.....arnold left and never followed jones' system ever again!!!!
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i hardly post on here these days (i still love to workout, but very tired about discussing bodybuilding) and i will have to say i agree with alot of what pumpster says.
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i hardly post on here these days (i still love to workout, but very tired about discussing bodybuilding) and i will have to say i agree with alot of what pumpster says.
PUMPTESRS RIGHT,,BUT WILLIE IS RIGHT TOO,EVERY ONE IS DIFFERENT PEOPLE DONT TRY HIT BECAUSE ITS TOO HARD BELIEVE IT OR NOT WHEN YOU TRAIN TO FAILUTRE IT HURTS AND MOST BBERS DONT LIKE TO GET HURT THEY LIKE TO CASUALLY PUMP UP MUSCLES NOTHING MORE ONE REACHES FAILURE FASTER THAN THE OTHER THATS ALL,,HIT YOU CAN REACH FAILUTRE WITH 3 WARMPUS FASTER THAN HIGH VOLUEM, ,,,BUT EITHER WAY THEY BOTH REACH FAILUTRE JUST DIFFERENT POINTS IN TRAINING ON THE CURVE,,,DOES NOT MATTER AS LONG AS MUSCLE REACHED EXHAUSTED FAUILRE YOU GROW,
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that pic of sergio is while he was in deland, florida with arthur.....
he did go through workouts there....
he then went back to his usual form of working out when he left florida.....same as casey viator.....he did the experiment with arthur but then went back to his original workout regimen.
These pictures are while the jones supervised training was going on in his facility in deland florida.....it was a trial run.....arnold left and never followed jones' system ever again!!!!
Read Sergio's interview Willie - he now regrets not continuing with it, and everyone knows he was in his best condition after the time with Jones. Most people benefit by being pushed farther by others. He's also pro-machine as a result, though there were exceptions for example squats he still wanted to do.
BUT EITHER WAY THEY BOTH REACH FAILUTRE JUST DIFFERENT POINTS IN TRAINING ON THE CURVE,,,
Bingo. It doesn't matter when, so take the most direct route instead of the long road.
i hardly post on here these days (i still love to workout, but very tired about discussing bodybuilding) and i will have to say i agree with alot of what pumpster says.
Slave knows his stuff so thanks. Kinda miss his posts on g&o, it's more interesting with alternate views.
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Agree with Wild Wille, for the most part. Top BB'ers & Pro's may be shown going to complete failure but seldom do in real time personal workouts. That eye's & veins popping out, grunting, etc is showtime stuff for the camera's. Also, anything you read that passes as training advice from any Pro, you might want to be cautious of. Most are selling something number one. Themselves or some book, DVD, product, supplement, etc. Who would really care what Arnold, Sergio or any other known BB'er said 40 years ago. Mostly BS anyway.
The important thing is the pump for true BB'ing and the best pumps are through higher volume workouts (old BB'ing saying, "more blood, more muscle"). If going to true complete failure on a first few sets, the rest of the planned volume sets can never be achieved the way they should. Burn out too fast to do justice to the remaining workout. Tend to stop one or two reps short on complete failure. Remember there are three main divisions of failure; momentary, complete and negative. Super shoot-up drugs or not, too much reaching failure taxes the recovery and CNS big time. Sooner or later you will hit the wall. Maybe why some old Pro's switched back to how they trained before the failure thing.
That famous shot of Sergio is in DeLand, Fla. Posed on the original prototype pullover machine. The improved version had a overhead pulldown devise attached. Best lat builder even, when not abused. As too many BB'ers did. Jone shoulder press machine was also very impressive, with the results gotten.. Both took the weak linked arms out of the exercise, for the most part. A few gym's had only Nautilus machines to training on. Good Luck.
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the best pumps are through higher volume workouts
That is absurd, thus the rest of the assumptions moot. Seriously the whole "i don't bother to train to failure" renders your conclusions incomplete. Try pushing yourself, have some ambition and you'll understand the dynamics and big picture better.
I've gotten enormous pumps on lower volume; best pumps you feel not only totally inflated and high on endorphins, you also get the deep muscle ache. That can happen with high, medium or lower volume. GVT using 6 x 6 is not high volume and gives great pumps. And probably with HIT as well, IF it's true HIT with a training partner, which most people can't and don't do even while claiming HIT training. The real thing's too gruelling for most.
Pump has to do with factors like forcing the body to adapt through applying progressively greater intensity (Schwarzenegger - the body's not used to the 6th, 7th reps), finding the most effective exercises, intensity techniques such as cheating, rest-pause, etc., the length of the rest periods between sets, your energy level, etc.
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Actually GVT is 10X10's (100 reps) not 6X6 (36 reps).
6X6's could be considered High volume if 5 exercises or more , for a specific muscle group, are to be preformed. Like doing 5 chest exercises, 6 sets each exercise of 6 reps. That would add up to 180 reps total for high volume chest work. And usually 60 second rest between sets and 90 seconds between each exercise. Idea being to work at a fast pace during that chest workout time. Even 4 exercises would total 144 reps. 3 exercises 108 reps total. Any of these should be enough fast pace volume work for most muscle groups. Do not have to use 10, 12 or whatever reps to be considered high volume.
If people think that not going to failure each rep is not working hard, they are painfully mistaken. Or do not have actual serious gym experience at all. Good Luck.
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So how would someone pair up muscle groups when trying to train everything 2x-3x per week???