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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on May 03, 2009, 07:07:32 PM

Title: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 03, 2009, 07:07:32 PM



I am writing in Schiff for President in 2012.

This man is brilliant and truly gets it.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: SAMSON123 on May 03, 2009, 07:18:25 PM
Because college is a BUSINESS...it is NOT about education. Tuitions have been on a furious rise for years, because the mindset in america is if you don't have a college education you will not get a job. Colleges looked at that mindset and said....We can raise our tuition to the sky, becasue the FEAR is without us their will be no career. So up the tuitions went without regard to student or parents income and with no option but to pay in order to go, students and parent were left with no option but to take out loans against their homes, student loans, work longer hours and hopefully get scholarships....

EDUCATION SHOULD NOT BE A BUSINESS
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 03, 2009, 07:22:08 PM
Because college is a BUSINESS...it is NOT about education. Tuitions have been on a furious rise for years, because the mindset in america is if you don't have a college education you will not get a job. Colleges looked at that mindset and said....We can raise our tuition to the sky, becasue the FEAR is without us their will be no career. So up the tuitions went without regard to student or parents income and with no option but to pay in order to go, students and parent were left with no option but to take out loans against their homes, student loans, work longer hours and hopefully get scholarships....

EDUCATION SHOULD NOT BE A BUSINESS

Thats the point of the video.  The govt is actively promoting college being a buisness by giving the loans out to everyone regardless of the cost.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 03, 2009, 11:41:16 PM
Colleges can charge whatever they want to. A) people will pay any amount to be there and B) most people are on loans anyway. When I was in college 86% of the undergraduate base was on government loans of some sort.

A government loan to an 18 year old is like free money. I got a friend who owes 65K+, and just pays $50 every month.

Agree with Samson, college is a business. For a lot of kids though, it's not about the education, they go for the lifestyle.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 05:34:31 AM
Colleges can charge whatever they want to. A) people will pay any amount to be there and B) most people are on loans anyway. When I was in college 86% of the undergraduate base was on government loans of some sort.

A government loan to an 18 year old is like free money. I got a friend who owes 65K+, and just pays $50 every month.

Agree with Samson, college is a business. For a lot of kids though, it's not about the education, they go for the lifestyle.

The the free money was no so available, colleges would have to lower costs to compete. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 04, 2009, 07:16:41 AM
The sheer volume of cash colleges waste is mind-boggling. Not like Obama's doings, but still...

The uni I went to raised tuition about 10% when I was there because they were not making it financially... Yet spent 85K on various 'art' projects, including a stack of logs ('art') for 30K that I could have made in 30 minutes with a decent loader.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 07:21:56 AM
The sheer volume of cash colleges waste is mind-boggling. Not like Obama's doings, but still...

The uni I went to raised tuition about 10% when I was there because they were not making it financially... Yet spent 85K on various 'art' projects, including a stack of logs ('art') for 30K that I could have made in 30 minutes with a decent loader.

College in its present form is antiquated and extremely wasteful. 

The government has completely screwed this up like everything else. 

If they simply did not give out as much loans to these kids, the colleges would have to innovate, compete, and become more competitive.

As it stands now, college is a ripoff unless you got to some of the very good state schools. 

There is no college worth 200k for four a B.A.   
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 07:31:22 AM
College should be free for all citizens.  Facts and Knowledge should not be only for those that can afford it.  George Washington`s sole goal which he placed more importance on than any other, was to establish a Free National University system for all Citizens.  Sadly, his dream was never realized.

College is a For-Profit, Capitalistic system which is totally wrong.  The idea is to make money, not educate.

The idea of college and its perception in the United States is also a gross failure.  No longer are they places of learning, but instead have become just a place to get a certificate so that a business can see if you are saddled with debt, thus ensuring that you will not go anywhere and be nothing but an obedient worker.

They LOVE students with debt. “Choice depends on the freedom to choose. And if you’re shackled with debt, you don’t have the freedom to choose.
“People in debt become hopeless, and hopeless people don’t vote…. See, I think there are two ways in which people are controlled. First of all, frighten people, and, secondly, demoralize them. An educated, healthy and confident nation is harder to govern….
“We don’t want people to be educated, healthy and confident because they will get out of control. The top 1 percent of the world’s population owns 80 percent of the world’s wealth.
“It’s incredible that people put up with it. But they’re poor, they’re demoralized, they’re frightened, and therefore they think perhaps the safest thing to do is take orders and hope for the best.”


Tony Benn puts it VERY well here:
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 07:33:41 AM
There is simply not enough money to fulfill all your socialistic fantasies.  You economic wet dreams are just that, dreams.

Free college, free health care, free housing, and on and on.

Tell, at what point do you think the govt has done enough?   
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 07:35:12 AM
The the free money was no so available, colleges would have to lower costs to compete. 
This is the same way Housing Prices and Auto Prices have gotten out of hand inflation wise.   In the 50s, one used to be able to pay for a house or a car pretty much free and clear.  Now, the idea is to be saddled with debt and keep working towards "The American Dream".


What would you do Chris though, if this rampant debt did not exist since your business depends entirely on people who cannot pay their debts?

Do you find yourself part of the problem in any way?
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 07:37:19 AM
There is simply not enough money to fulfill all your socialistic fantasies.  You economic wet dreams are just that, dreams.

Free college, free health care, free housing, and on and on.

Tell, at what point do you think the govt has done enough?   
We already spend more per capita on Healthcare and Education than any other country when compared to ANY of those who provide Free Healthcare and Education so the MONEY IS THERE!

We had no problem finding the money to fight two wars and Bush had no problem with raising 700 Billion plus for the first round of bailouts in a year.

The money is there, the will to use the money for things that actually help and work is not.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 07:39:43 AM
This is the same way Housing Prices and Auto Prices have gotten out of hand inflation wise.   In the 50s, one used to be able to pay for a house or a car pretty much free and clear.  Now, the idea is to be saddled with debt and keep working towards "The American Dream".


What would you do Chris though, if this rampant debt did not exist since your business depends entirely on people who cannot pay their debts?

Do you find yourself part of the problem in any way?

Not at all, I do construction industry work mainly and it is a different animal altogether. 

You are right about the homes and cars.

However, take that one step further, and college is no different. 

The costs are solely a result of a ease of credit.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 07:42:58 AM
Not at all, I do construction industry work mainly and it is a different animal altogether. 

You are right about the homes and cars.

However, take that one step further, and college is no different. 

The costs are solely a result of a ease of credit.
Which are the evils of Capitalism and the free market unchecked.  College is a For Profit system and finding a hundred different ways to generate revenue, from parking tickets to tuition increases to student loans is what they do best.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Stormspirit on May 04, 2009, 07:43:16 AM
he has a great tan
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 04, 2009, 07:43:35 AM
It is very easy to PR for a uni however. Everytime they get a little funding cut, they cry "But the children.....", or "our future ..."]

Refer to Arnold Swartzeneggers budget of a couple months ago.

Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 07:50:15 AM
Which are the evils of Capitalism and the free market unchecked.  College is a For Profit system and finding a hundred different ways to generate revenue, from parking tickets to tuition increases to student loans is what they do best.

Its not the free market when the govt promotes this nonsense by underwriting the school loans and setting the accreditation requirements.

Additionally, do you realize that school loans and taxes are the only types of loans you cant discharge in Bkrpty proceedings????   
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 04, 2009, 07:53:37 AM
Its not the free market when the govt promotes this nonsense by underwriting the school loans and setting the accreditation requirements.

Additionally, do you realize that school loans and taxes are the only types of loans you cant discharge in Bkrpty proceedings????   

What is taxes are the reason you went bankrupt?

What is it's an estate tax issue where the death tax ran you out of business?
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 07:55:19 AM
What is taxes are the reason you went bankrupt?

What is it's an estate tax issue where the death tax ran you out of business?

Huh????

Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 07:56:10 AM
Its not the free market when the govt promotes this nonsense by underwriting the school loans and setting the accreditation requirements.

Additionally, do you realize that school loans and taxes are the only types of loans you cant discharge in Bkrpty proceedings????   
The whole system needs to be scrapped for a National University System similar to Norway.  Sweden and Finland also have entirely free University systems even for Non-Citizens.  Keep in mind we spend more Per Capita per student than they do.


In the late 1700s, Thomas Paine was amongst the earliest proponents of universal, free public education, which was considered to be a radical idea at the time.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 04, 2009, 07:58:28 AM
Huh????



What if you are forced into bankruptcy because you couldn't pay the taxes. Do you still have to pay them regardless?
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 07:58:38 AM
"We had no problem finding the money to fight two wars and Bush had no problem with raising 700 Billion plus for the first round of bailouts in a year."


Wrong, we charged it on our credit cards and will paying for it for generations.  It was no ok then and is not ok now.  

Bush was a fiscal disaster.

Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 07:59:28 AM
What if you are forced into bankruptcy because you couldn't pay the taxes. Do you still have to pay them regardless?

Yes.  It will stick with you for life. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 08:06:03 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_education_in_Norway

Higher education in Norway is offered by a range of seven universities, eight specialised universities, 25 university colleges as well as a range of private university colleges. The national higher education system is in accordance with the Bologna process, with bachelor's degrees (first cycle, three years), master's degrees (second cycle, two years) and doctoral degrees (third cycle, four years). Acceptance is offered after finishing upper secondary school with general university admissions certification.

Public education is free, with an academic year with two semesters, from August to December and from January to June. The ultimate responsibility for the education lies with the Norwegian Ministry of Education and Research.

Student welfare and economics

There are no tuition fees for attending public higher education in Norway, as all the costs are covered by the Ministry of Education and Research.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 08:13:23 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_education_in_Norway

Higher education in Norway is offered by a range of seven universities, eight specialised universities, 25 university colleges as well as a range of private university colleges. The national higher education system is in accordance with the Bologna process, with bachelor's degrees (first cycle, three years), master's degrees (second cycle, two years) and doctoral degrees (third cycle, four years). Acceptance is offered after finishing upper secondary school with general university admissions certification.

Public education is free, with an academic year with two semesters, from August to December and from January to June. The ultimate responsibility for the education lies with the Norwegian Ministry of Education and Research.

Student welfare and economics

There are no tuition fees for attending public higher education in Norway, as all the costs are covered by the Ministry of Education and Research.


Norway is a small homogeneous population that has not a fraction of the issues we deal with here.

Additionally, college here serves mostly as a place holder for many people who go into debt and come out and get HS level employment anyway. 

It would be far better to encourage community college and trade schools than private colleges that charge huge sums of money.

Of course the better students will go to college, but many would, and should pursue other endeavors.   
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 08:24:49 AM
Don`t forget the myraid of PRIVATE LOANS that have ravaged the University system.  Private Loans have become HUGELY PREDATORY in nature and are by far worse than the Government backed loans.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 08:26:57 AM
Don`t forget the myraid of PRIVATE LOANS that have ravaged the University system.  Private Loans have become HUGELY PREDATORY in nature and are by far worse than the Government backed loans.

I agree, the entire system is insane and creates slaves to debt.

But make no mistake, the govt bears as much responsibility for this as to the private lenders and schools themselves.   
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 08:34:45 AM
I agree, the entire system is insane and creates slaves to debt.

But make no mistake, the govt bears as much responsibility for this as to the private lenders and schools themselves.   
I think a Community Service Program is also a good idea.  2-4 Years of Community Service and tuition is paid for similar to the GI bill.

The Peace Corp is also a good organization for paying for college.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on May 04, 2009, 08:38:39 AM
It's good for a laugh when people still use the word FREE in front of education and healthcare...
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 08:38:45 AM
I think a Community Service Program is also a good idea.  2-4 Years of Community Service and tuition is paid for similar to the GI bill.

The Peace Corp is also a good organization for paying for college.

I agree with you about the college system not creating free thinkers and slvaes to debt.  Its horrific.  

To me, it creates a slave class of people who are forced to work for companies just to pay loans and saps these kids of energy and innovation when they have it the most.  

In my mind, someone in their 20's should be in a entreprenuaial position, try different things, take risks, etc to create businesses, create products and services, etc.

However, they cant do that because they are saddled with debt.    
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Deicide on May 04, 2009, 08:39:27 AM
College should be free for all citizens.  Facts and Knowledge should not be only for those that can afford it.  George Washington`s sole goal which he placed more importance on than any other, was to establish a Free National University system for all Citizens.  Sadly, his dream was never realized.

College is a For-Profit, Capitalistic system which is totally wrong.  The idea is to make money, not educate.

The idea of college and its perception in the United States is also a gross failure.  No longer are they places of learning, but instead have become just a place to get a certificate so that a business can see if you are saddled with debt, thus ensuring that you will not go anywhere and be nothing but an obedient worker.

They LOVE students with debt. “Choice depends on the freedom to choose. And if you’re shackled with debt, you don’t have the freedom to choose.
“People in debt become hopeless, and hopeless people don’t vote…. See, I think there are two ways in which people are controlled. First of all, frighten people, and, secondly, demoralize them. An educated, healthy and confident nation is harder to govern….
“We don’t want people to be educated, healthy and confident because they will get out of control. The top 1 percent of the world’s population owns 80 percent of the world’s wealth.
“It’s incredible that people put up with it. But they’re poor, they’re demoralized, they’re frightened, and therefore they think perhaps the safest thing to do is take orders and hope for the best.”


Tony Benn puts it VERY well here:


Free university=sucks

Really TA about some things you DON'T know...

I studied in two different countries with 'free education'...total crap compared to the American and British system.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 08:40:43 AM
It's good for a laugh when people still use the word FREE in front of education and healthcare...

Nothing is free, ever.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 08:41:42 AM
Anything that is free is usually not worth buying. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Deicide on May 04, 2009, 08:42:47 AM
Nothing is free, ever.

I didn't mean free in a real sense but rather totally non-privatised.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 08:43:59 AM
I didn't mean free in a real sense but rather totally non-privatised.

Whatever the case may be, public private, someone always has to pay. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 08:44:53 AM
Whatever the case may be, public private, someone always has to pay. 
Free in the sense that a National Sales Tax once implemented, will easily cover the cost for all.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 08:45:10 AM
Another reason college is so expensieve is because employees at most colleges and universities are simply not productive.

They teach a few classes a week and command a full time salary.  Its ridiculous.

 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 08:45:47 AM
Free in the sense that a National Sales Tax once implemented, will easily cover the cost for all.

You mean on top of the 7-10% most states already charge?

Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 08:46:44 AM
Anything that is free is usually not worth buying. 

I am happy with my Fire Department, Postal Service and Police Department among many other things. :)

I doubt hiring a Private Fire Service or a Private Police Service would do much good in my case.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 08:47:57 AM
You mean on top of the 7-10% most states already charge?


No, I mean scrapping the entire IRS system and the income tax and pushing the sales tax to 20-30 percent.

I will bump my plan up.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 08:50:12 AM
Here:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=267602.0
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 08:51:26 AM
I am happy with my Fire Department, Postal Service and Police Department among many other things. :)

I doubt hiring a Private Fire Service or a Private Police Service would do much good in my case.

Many areas in the country have a volunteer fire department and dont require policing because the citizens dont act like animals.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 08:54:29 AM
Many areas in the country have a volunteer fire department and dont require policing because the citizens dont act like animals.
A Volunteer Fire Department is the very definition of True Socialism.

They do not discriminate who is in need or if the people will in turn pay for the Fire Department.  They do their job for the benefit of helping their community which in turn has a direct effect on their own well being.

Socialism is definitely in tune for those with a higher brain capacity and a penchant toward altruism instead of selfish profit.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The Coach on May 04, 2009, 08:55:49 AM
College should be free for all citizens.  Facts and Knowledge should not be only for those that can afford it.  George Washington`s sole goal which he placed more importance on than any other, was to establish a Free National University system for all Citizens.  Sadly, his dream was never realized.

College is a For-Profit, Capitalistic system which is totally wrong.  The idea is to make money, not educate.

The idea of college and its perception in the United States is also a gross failure.  No longer are they places of learning, but instead have become just a place to get a certificate so that a business can see if you are saddled with debt, thus ensuring that you will not go anywhere and be nothing but an obedient worker.

They LOVE students with debt. “Choice depends on the freedom to choose. And if you’re shackled with debt, you don’t have the freedom to choose.
“People in debt become hopeless, and hopeless people don’t vote…. See, I think there are two ways in which people are controlled. First of all, frighten people, and, secondly, demoralize them. An educated, healthy and confident nation is harder to govern….
“We don’t want people to be educated, healthy and confident because they will get out of control. The top 1 percent of the world’s population owns 80 percent of the world’s wealth.
“It’s incredible that people put up with it. But they’re poor, they’re demoralized, they’re frightened, and therefore they think perhaps the safest thing to do is take orders and hope for the best.”


Tony Benn puts it VERY well here:


Not paying for college is totally unrealistic in any facet. But you have choice, the choice is Private or non-private. For example UCLA is around $15-1800 per semester as opposed to almost $11000 for USC. Either way, like everything else, overhead has to be payed for. You have to look at it in a business sense as well as providing a great education. TA, your little socialist world is a fantasy to make people lazy and to depend on the government for EVERYTHING, it's an impossibility because even if everything were "free" we would still have to pay.

Everything from Kendergarden to highschool, were paying for it in the public school system wether we want to or not. My son goes to a private school, has since day one, but every year I get taxed for public schools. See how this works? (I doubt it)
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The Coach on May 04, 2009, 08:59:36 AM
A Volunteer Fire Department is the very definition of True Socialism.

They do not discriminate who is in need or if the people will in turn pay for the Fire Department.  They do their job for the benefit of helping their community which in turn has a direct effect on their own well being.

Socialism is definitely in tune for those with a higher brain capacity and a penchant toward altruism instead of selfish profit.

Socialism = lazy ass people.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 09:06:17 AM
Socialism = lazy ass people.

Socialism = people never held accountable to objective results and outcomes.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 09:22:17 AM
A Volunteer Fire Department is the very definition of True Socialism.

They do not discriminate who is in need or if the people will in turn pay for the Fire Department.  They do their job for the benefit of helping their community which in turn has a direct effect on their own well being.

Socialism is definitely in tune for those with a higher brain capacity and a penchant toward altruism instead of selfish profit.
Also, there are State and Federal grants available for all Volunteer Fire Departments.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 09:24:21 AM
Socialism = people never held accountable to objective results and outcomes.

That makes zero sense.

Albert Einstein, a prominent Socialist, was held accountable by the laws of Physics.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 09:25:47 AM
Socialism = lazy ass people.
::)
Yes. Martin Luther King, Albert Einstein, Upton Sinclair, George Orwell, Bertrand Russel, Bernie Sanders, Thomas Paine were all lazy people.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 09:29:36 AM
::)
Yes. Martin Luther King, Albert Einstein, Upton Sinclair, George Orwell, Bertrand Russel, Bernie Sanders, Thomas Paine were all lazy people.

Not one of those people ever made a payroll or were responsible for objective outcomes as far as costs of things go. 

Those are not the type of people that make things work. 

Actual people who do real things do.  Plumbers, painters, bus drivers, sectretaries, doctors, lawyers, contractors, etc make the world work, not people like MLK or Bernie Sanders.

Remember - Those who can do, do.  Those who cant . . . . .   well you know the rest of that line.

 
   
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 09:32:22 AM
Not one of those people ever made a payroll or were responsible for objective outcomes as far as costs of things go. 

Those are not the type of people that make things work. 

Actual people who do real things do.  Plumbers, painters, bus drivers, sectretaries, doctors, lawyers, contractors, etc make the world work, not people like MLK or Bernie Sanders.

Remember - Those who can do, do.  Those who cant . . . . .   well you know the rest of that line.

 
   
Socialists are all over the place. The Entire Country or Norway is an example.  There is nothing exciting or noteworthy about calling attention to a Socialist Bus Driver.

Bernie Sanders was a Carpenter and a Journalist.  He still loves Carpentry.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 09:37:06 AM
Socialists are all over the place. The Entire Country or Norway is an example.  There is nothing exciting or noteworthy about calling attention to a Socialist Bus Driver.

Bernie Sanders was a Carpenter and a Journalist.  He still loves Carpentry.

But the US taxpayer puts food on his table.  Remember that. 

A nation of MLK's would starve in months. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 09:37:11 AM
Not one of those people ever made a payroll or were responsible for objective outcomes as far as costs of things go. 

Those are not the type of people that make things work. 

Actual people who do real things do.  Plumbers, painters, bus drivers, sectretaries, doctors, lawyers, contractors, etc make the world work, not people like MLK or Bernie Sanders.

Remember - Those who can do, do.  Those who cant . . . . .   well you know the rest of that line.

 
   
I don`t understand.  Albert Einstein made a wondeful salary as did MLK and the rest as well.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 09:38:27 AM
But the US taxpayer puts food on his table.  Remember that. 

A nation of MLK's would starve in months. 

I don`t understand.  A Socialist tax System is one where there is a NATIONAL SALES TAX, like Norway.

You seem to be advocating the IRS based Income Tax.  ???
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 09:39:27 AM
But the US taxpayer puts food on his table.  Remember that. 

A nation of MLK's would starve in months. 
There are a few Republicans as well as Democrats who do support a SOCIALIST NATIONAL SALES TAX.  They call it a Fair Tax.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 09:43:16 AM
But the US taxpayer puts food on his table.  Remember that. 

A nation of MLK's would starve in months. 
Without Albert Einstein, some Historians argue, Over a Million additional Lives would have been lost as World War II would have droned on.  If that is true, imagine the economic impact of that total destruction and loss given that premise.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: LurkerNoMore on May 04, 2009, 09:46:40 AM
Because college is a BUSINESS...it is NOT about education.

EDUCATION SHOULD NOT BE A BUSINESS


This is a very VERY true statement here.

College should be free for all citizens.  Facts and Knowledge should not be only for those that can afford it.  

I agree with this to a certain extent.

First let me say that I was one of the "lucky" ones that attended college on an academic scholarship.  My entire 4 years was paid for without a penny coming from my pocket.  (Often I had a check at the end of every semester for the balance of my award that wasn't spent on supplies and other school related things.  Was usually about $600 or so.  Not a huge amount)

When I studied for my MHA, that year of study and residency was covered as well.  In addition to the couple of times I choose to study on an exchange program at another college (twice in another state, twice in another country), everything then was covered as well.

Do I consider this "free education"?  NO.  I consider it "EARNED" education.  I did my work for 4 years in high school and was rewarded for it with a college education presented to me.  I did my work for 4 years in college and was rewarded for it by having further educational goals presented to me.

I truly believe those that really WANT it should have the opportunity to get it.  There are some very smart people out there that would excel in college and develop their talents to the utmost potential but simply do not have the $$ and means to do so.  This is really a bad thing when you look at it because overall, it robs the workforce of some people who would make truly outstanding employees.

Does this mean that everyone should be going to college for free?  No.  I believe the opportunity should be there and more readily but you must earn it.  Enroll, carry an above average GPA, stay out of trouble of all kind (on and off campus), do something like 40 hours of required community service per summer, and the opportunity for a college education is yours.  I believe that the ones that truly want it and deserve it will be (and should be) rewarded.  

This doesn't apply for those that carry a 2.1 GPA, miss classess, changes school randomly or miss semesters, get arrested, etc...  If they are not serious about their education then THEY should be the ones to pay for their lackluster efforts.  No one else.  This would certainly weed out the people that don't really want a college education, in addition to bringing back the importance of what a degree once held.  Used to be a degree held a lot of weight and moved you up the ladder much faster.  Now days, it is simply an entry point for many companies and those freshly minted degree holders lack many basic skills in their fields (despite having a degree) that are needed to achieve exceptional results and distinguish them from other coworkers.  Companies only hurt themselves by hiring people from "degree mills" type institute that churn out grads simply because they (or the gov't) pay the tuition.

I do think the availability for free education should be increased significantly, but only under established guidelines that require the student to support his end of the deal as well.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 10:04:59 AM
"There are some very smart people out there that would excel in college and develop their talents to the utmost potential but simply do not have the $$ and means to do so.  This is really a bad thing when you look at it because overall, it robs the workforce of some people who would make truly outstanding employees."



That's the problem.  The current system does not reward this type of person.  It rewards the athlete, the slacker with rich parents, etc. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: LurkerNoMore on May 04, 2009, 10:13:30 AM
That's the problem.  The current system does not reward this type of person.  It rewards the athlete, the slacker with rich parents, etc. 


Which is why I agreed with Samson when he stated college/education is a business.

Can't believe I actually agreed with him on anything.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: MuscleMcMannus on May 04, 2009, 10:15:41 AM
Norway is a small homogeneous population that has not a fraction of the issues we deal with here.

Additionally, college here serves mostly as a place holder for many people who go into debt and come out and get HS level employment anyway. 

It would be far better to encourage community college and trade schools than private colleges that charge huge sums of money.

Of course the better students will go to college, but many would, and should pursue other endeavors.   

You're exactly right.  Scandinavian countries have hardly any of the problems we have.  They have a very small population with huge income from the sale of their oil reserves.  They are living off of their exports.  We don't have that option in the US.  This is why all those countries like Sweden have so much money for socialized medicine and other things.  However, that is changing. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Deicide on May 04, 2009, 10:33:36 AM
You're exactly right.  Scandinavian countries have hardly any of the problems we have.  They have a very small population with huge income from the sale of their oil reserves.  They are living off of their exports.  We don't have that option in the US.  This is why all those countries like Sweden have so much money for socialized medicine and other things.  However, that is changing. 

Yup. I have always said that population size is key. Scandinavian models are taylored to the populations of those countries, not going to work for 300 mil+.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: MCWAY on May 04, 2009, 10:55:51 AM
"There are some very smart people out there that would excel in college and develop their talents to the utmost potential but simply do not have the $$ and means to do so.  This is really a bad thing when you look at it because overall, it robs the workforce of some people who would make truly outstanding employees."



That's the problem.  The current system does not reward this type of person.  It rewards the athlete, the slacker with rich parents, etc. 


Actually, it rewards those who would excel in college. It also rewards the athlete. Some people are late-bloomers, if you will. A lot of people, who weren't stellar students have gone on to get educations, via athletic scholarships.

But, you do make a point. Sometimes, the people who get scholarships aren't necessarily the best students. It's all about the standardized test. I wasn't the valedictorian or salutitorian at my high school. But, I got more scholarship offers than either one of them (and more were full-ride scholarships), because I did better than they did on the SAT and ACT.

Basically, to get through high school, you simply need a good short-term memory and the ability to "pump-and-dump" information for tests.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 12:05:22 PM
Yup. I have always said that population size is key. Scandinavian models are taylored to the populations of those countries, not going to work for 300 mil+.
Nice try, but we already spend more per capita per student for education and more per capita per person for Healthcare.  That renders the population size irrelevant as implementing a Universal System in both is projected to lower the per capita cost from what we are paying.

Your argument is meaningless.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 12:07:01 PM
You're exactly right.  Scandinavian countries have hardly any of the problems we have.  They have a very small population with huge income from the sale of their oil reserves.  They are living off of their exports.  We don't have that option in the US.  This is why all those countries like Sweden have so much money for socialized medicine and other things.  However, that is changing. 
Our GDP is comparable so that is NOT the case.  Their National Sales Tax is moreso the reason for the ability to provide for its citizens.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 12:09:52 PM
Our GDP is comparable so that is NOT the case.  Their National Sales Tax is moreso the reason for the ability to provide for its citizens.

Absolutely not true.

You cant use a tiny population like Norway and assume that they do will work for us.  Additionally, Norway is tiny geographically and does not have the energy needs we do.   They have a different history, people, experience etc. 

Its utter nonsense to believe that what works in Norway will work here.   
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 12:13:13 PM
Absolutely not true.

You cant use a tiny population like Norway and assume that they do will work for us.  Additionally, Norway is tiny geographically and does not have the energy needs we do.   They have a different history, people, experience etc. 

Its utter nonsense to believe that what works in Norway will work here.   

Geographic Area makes zero sense.  This isn`t 1300 where the exchequer comes on horseback to collect taxes, taking a year.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 12:14:52 PM
You're exactly right.  Scandinavian countries have hardly any of the problems we have.  They have a very small population with huge income from the sale of their oil reserves.  They are living off of their exports.  We don't have that option in the US.  This is why all those countries like Sweden have so much money for socialized medicine and other things.  However, that is changing. 
Sweden`s revenue is from taxes.  This is what they are known for. They are also a trade based economy.  They produce Timber, Hydropower and Iron Ore. Not oil in case you are assuming they have oil.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 12:16:59 PM
   3.  Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

        * Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care

        * Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.

        * Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits

        * Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.

        * Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 12:17:14 PM
Geographic Area makes zero sense.  This isn`t 1300 where the exchequer comes on horseback to collect taxes, taking a year.

Norway is a tiny little country that makes most of its money on oil exports and has a tiny homogenous population that lives off it.  The USA has become a service based economy.  

They dont allow millions of illegals to swamp their system and are not relied upon to police the terrorists and rougue states in the world.  Thus, they are not required to fund a military like ours.      

Your attempt to try to extrapolate what Norway does to the rest of the world, or at least the USA, ignores dozens of issues that make it a non-starter at best.      

 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 12:21:33 PM
Norway is a tiny little country that makes most of its money on oil exports and has a tiny homogenous population that lives off it.  The USA has become a service based economy.  

They dont allow millions of illegals to swamp their system and are not relied upon to police the terrorists and rougue states in the world.  Thus, they are not required to fund a military like ours.      

Your attempt to try to extrapolate what Norway does to the rest of the world, or at least the USA, ignores dozens of issues that make it a non-starter at best.      

 
1. Our GDP is comparable.

2. They extend their benefits, such as free schooling and Universal Healthcare to ALL PEOPLE regardless of Citizenship.

3. They don`t need a huge military because they did not create a Military Industrial Complex and never have had the Empire mindset.

4.Please list an issue and I will try to counter it.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 12:21:46 PM
The only reason the adm costs are so high is to comply with the paperwork from Mediare, Medicaid, and avoidance of law suits from lawyers like John Edwards.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 12:22:49 PM
1. Our GDP is comparable.

2. They extend their benefits, such as free schooling and Universal Healthcare to ALL PEOPLE regardless of Citizenship.

3. They don`t need a huge military because they did not create a Military Industrial Complex and never have had the Empire mindset.

4.Please list an issue and I will try to counter it.

Like I said, let 15-20 million illegal alien arabs flood their country and see what happens.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 12:25:54 PM
The only reason the adm costs are so high is to comply with the paperwork from Mediare, Medicaid, and avoidance of law suits from lawyers like John Edwards.
Wrong. You WANT John Edwards on your side.

Did you know that Doctors and Mal Practice are the THIRD leading cause of Death in the United States.

America's Healthcare System is the Third Leading Cause of Death
   
Barbara Starfield, M.D. (2000)
   
Summary by Kah Ying Choo

This Journal of the American Medical Association article illuminates the failure of the U.S. medical system in providing decent medical care for Americans.
      
 
In spite of the rising health care costs that provide the illusion of improving health care, the American people do not enjoy good health, compared with their counterparts in the industrialized nations.  Among thirteen countries including Japan, Sweden, France and Canada, the U.S. was ranked 12th, based on the measurement of 16 health indicators such as life expectancy, low-birth-weight averages and infant mortality.  In another comparison reported by the World Health Organization that used a different set of health indicators, the U.S. also fared poorly with a ranking of 15 among 25 industrialized nations.

Although many people attribute poor health to the bad habits of the American public, Starfield (2000) points out that the Americans do not lead an unhealthy lifestyle compared to their counterparts.  For example, only 28 percent of the male population in the U.S. smoked, thus making it the third best nation in the category of smoking among the 13 industrialized nations.  The U.S. population also achieved a high ranking (5th best) for alcohol consumption.  In the category of men aged 50 to 70 years, the U.S. had the third lowest mean cholesterol concentrations among 13 industrialized nations. Therefore, the perception that the American public’s poor health is a result of their negative health habits is false.

Even more significantly, the medical system has played a large role in undermining the health of Americans.  According to several research studies in the last decade, a total of 225,000 Americans per year have died as a result of their medical treatments:     
      • 12,000 deaths per year due to unnecessary surgery

• 7000 deaths per year due to medication errors in hospitals

• 20,000 deaths per year due to other errors in hospitals

• 80,000 deaths per year due to infections in hospitals

• 106,000 deaths per year due to negative effects of drugs

   
Thus, America's healthcare-system-induced deaths are the third leading cause of the death in the U.S., after heart disease and cancer.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 12:28:53 PM
No I dont.  That disgusting slob not only made millions on phony medical theories, but is a disgrace to his family and children.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 12:30:38 PM
The terms iatrogenesis and iatrogenic artifact refer to adverse effects or complications caused by or resulting from medical treatment or advice. .

Causes of iatrogenesis include medical error, negligence, and the adverse effects or interactions of prescription drugs. In the United States, from 120,000 to 225,000 deaths per year may be attributed in some part to iatrogenesis.




iatrogenesis is a major phenomenon, and a severe risk to patients. A study carried out in 1981 more than one-third of illnesses of patients in a university hospital were iatrogenic, nearly one in ten were considered major, and in 2% of the patients, the iatrogenic disorder ended in death. Complications were most strongly associated with exposure to drugs and medications.[12] In another study, the main factors leading to problems were inadequate patient evaluation, lack of monitoring and follow-up, and failure to perform necessary tests.[13]

In the United State alone, recorded deaths per year (2000):

    * 12,000—unnecessary surgery
    * 7,000—medication errors in hospitals
    * 20,000—other errors in hospitals
    * 80,000—infections in hospitals
    * 106,000—non-error, negative effects of drugs

Based on these figures, 225,000 deaths per year constitutes the third leading cause of death in the United States, after deaths from heart disease and cancer. Also, there is a wide margin between these numbers of deaths and the next leading cause of death (cerebrovascular disease).

This totals 225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes. In interpreting these numbers, note the following:

    * most data were derived from studies in hospitalized patients.
    * the estimates are for deaths only and do not include negative effects that are associated with disability or discomfort.
    * the estimates of death due to error are lower than those in the IOM report. If higher estimates are used, the deaths due to iatrogenic causes would range from 230,000 to 284,000.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 04, 2009, 12:32:58 PM
No I dont.  That disgusting slob not only made millions on phony medical theories, but is a disgrace to his family and children.
Trust me, you WANT medical protection.  I know firsthand.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on May 04, 2009, 01:02:56 PM
Trust me, you WANT medical protection.  I know firsthand.

Those deadlifts almost killed ya huh?  ;D
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Deicide on May 04, 2009, 01:12:01 PM
Those deadlifts almost killed ya huh?  ;D

Actually TA is a medical doctor.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 04, 2009, 06:27:11 PM
Like Dr. Tran?
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 04, 2009, 06:34:17 PM
Actually TA is a medical doctor.

I thought he was the next einstein doing ground breaking research on the cure for aids, cancer, poverty, death, global warming, hurricanes, and flooding.

Was I wrong????
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: headhuntersix on May 04, 2009, 06:38:19 PM
Christ...we're not Norway..we're not Sweden. Those things aren't going to work here. Everything from the size of this country to our place in the world make it ridiculous. Thier lifestyle is completely different.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 04, 2009, 10:51:13 PM
Well according to TA if going to the doctor was free and going to school was free, we would live in a utopian wonderland...
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 05, 2009, 05:20:42 AM
Well according to TA if going to the doctor was free and going to school was free, we would live in a utopian wonderland...

I want free hookers and beers, is the govt going to provide that too?

Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: gordiano on May 06, 2009, 12:18:35 AM
"There are some very smart people out there that would excel in college and develop their talents to the utmost potential but simply do not have the $$ and means to do so.  This is really a bad thing when you look at it because overall, it robs the workforce of some people who would make truly outstanding employees."



That's the problem.  The current system does not reward this type of person.  It rewards the athlete, the slacker with rich parents, etc. 


Yep.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 06, 2009, 08:34:58 AM
I want free hookers and beers, is the govt going to provide that too?



What you spend your public assistance and food stamps on is your business...
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Fury on May 06, 2009, 08:45:26 AM
"There are some very smart people out there that would excel in college and develop their talents to the utmost potential but simply do not have the $$ and means to do so.  This is really a bad thing when you look at it because overall, it robs the workforce of some people who would make truly outstanding employees."



That's the problem.  The current system does not reward this type of person.  It rewards the athlete, the slacker with rich parents, etc. 


It's simple economics. Supply and demand. People are willing to pay that price so colleges are willing to charge it.

There may be starving Africans out in Darfur who are capable of curing AIDS yet they'll never have that opportunity. It's the way the world works.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 06, 2009, 08:53:14 AM
"It's simple economics. Supply and demand. People are willing to pay that price so colleges are willing to charge it."

That is only because the SUPPLY is abundant due to the government providing all these loans at whatever cost is charged by the schools. 

Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 06, 2009, 09:34:40 AM
"It's simple economics. Supply and demand. People are willing to pay that price so colleges are willing to charge it."

That is only because the SUPPLY is abundant due to the government providing all these loans at whatever cost is charged by the schools. 


Uh, you need to address PRIVATE loans as well.  The government is not the sole problem nor is it the majority of the problem as to why tuition is rising.

More college kids taking private loans
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 04.22.2009
advertisement

BERKELEY, Calif. — A study finds the number of college students taking out private student loans has risen sharply in recent years.
The report released Tuesday by the Berkeley, Calif.-based Project on Student Debt found that the percentage of all undergraduates who took private loans rose from 5 percent in 2003-04 to 14 percent in 2007-08.
At for-profit colleges and universities, the percentage of students taking out private loans jumped from 13 percent in 2003-04 to 42 percent in 2007-2008.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 06, 2009, 09:41:01 AM
They often take those loans IN ADDITION to govt loans.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 06, 2009, 09:44:35 AM
They often take those loans IN ADDITION to govt loans.
You must also demonize the Private sector as well for contributing to inflation regarding Tuitition.


I don`t see you doing this and I wonder why.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 06, 2009, 09:49:47 AM
You must also demonize the Private sector as well for contributing to inflation regarding Tuitition.


I don`t see you doing this and I wonder why.

Because the private sector loans are dischargable in bankrputcy as I understand it.  I have to check though.

I agree that private loans for college are not a good thing though and largely contribute to the tuition inflation problem. 

It is criminal how they bs these 18 y/o kids into taking out these insane loans.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 06, 2009, 09:50:29 AM
It's simple economics. Supply and demand. People are willing to pay that price so colleges are willing to charge it.

There may be starving Africans out in Darfur who are capable of curing AIDS yet they'll never have that opportunity. It's the way the world works.

Nope, but that dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks college girl will get her student loans and be there for 7 years...


...Then (maybe) be qualified to waitress at Dennys... While (maybe) paying off her 75K debt.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: shootfighter1 on May 06, 2009, 10:25:53 AM
Although Adonis and I disagree on some topics, I do think its a great idea to scrap the IRS and consider a national sales tax.  The details (and exceptions for food/utilities/etc for the empoverished) could be debated and determined, but overall its a good idea.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 06, 2009, 10:27:52 AM
Although Adonis and I disagree on some topics, I do think its a great idea to scrap the IRS and consider a national sales tax.  The details (and exceptions for food/utilities/etc for the empoverished) could be debated and determined, but overall its a good idea.

Agreed 100%.  it would give people a choice of how much money to give to the govt. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: shootfighter1 on May 06, 2009, 10:27:57 AM
There's no doubt that colleges are far too expensive and far too wasteful.  With the gov giving so many loans and grants, colleges have no incentive to decrease costs and expenses.  The result is a lot of waste and a lot of kids with incredible amounts of debt.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The Master on May 06, 2009, 10:58:53 AM
College should be free for all citizens.  Facts and Knowledge should not be only for those that can afford it.  George Washington`s sole goal which he placed more importance on than any other, was to establish a Free National University system for all Citizens.  Sadly, his dream was never realized.

College is a For-Profit, Capitalistic system which is totally wrong.  The idea is to make money, not educate.

The idea of college and its perception in the United States is also a gross failure.  No longer are they places of learning, but instead have become just a place to get a certificate so that a business can see if you are saddled with debt, thus ensuring that you will not go anywhere and be nothing but an obedient worker.

They LOVE students with debt. “Choice depends on the freedom to choose. And if you’re shackled with debt, you don’t have the freedom to choose.
“People in debt become hopeless, and hopeless people don’t vote…. See, I think there are two ways in which people are controlled. First of all, frighten people, and, secondly, demoralize them. An educated, healthy and confident nation is harder to govern….
“We don’t want people to be educated, healthy and confident because they will get out of control. The top 1 percent of the world’s population owns 80 percent of the world’s wealth.
“It’s incredible that people put up with it. But they’re poor, they’re demoralized, they’re frightened, and therefore they think perhaps the safest thing to do is take orders and hope for the best.”


Tony Benn puts it VERY well here:



In Norway, most Colleges/Universities = free, and you get a scholarship from the gouvernment as well. The free colleges/unis = the ones with the highest quality as well.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 06, 2009, 11:04:45 AM
That is a tiny population that lives off oil exports.  That wont work here where not only do we have massive trade deficits, but we bow the enviro-nazis and wont sell or produce our own oil or other resources.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 06, 2009, 11:15:00 AM
That is a tiny population that lives off oil exports.  That wont work here where not only do we have massive trade deficits, but we bow the enviro-nazis and wont sell or produce our own oil or other resources.
Sweden offers the same, Free Education and healthcare and they have no oil exports.  Their exports are Iron Ore, Timber and Hydroelectricity.

The majority of their GDP is a trade based economy similar to ours.

We don`t have that much oil (only 8 years worth of oil under our current soil given our current consumption), nor can we sell our own cheaper than the Saudi`s, Canadians, Russians or even the Argentinians given the lack of volume we have.  Oil is not a viable export for us whatsoever so you have no basis in blaming anyone for something that can and will never prove lucrative.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/World_Oil_Reserves_by_Region.PNG/300px-World_Oil_Reserves_by_Region.PNG)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves


Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: shootfighter1 on May 06, 2009, 11:48:37 AM
It is not easy to extrapolate Sweden's system to the US.  Very different populations and huge size difference.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 06, 2009, 12:27:17 PM
It is not easy to extrapolate Sweden's system to the US.  Very different populations and huge size difference.
We already spend more per capita on education and healthcare than the Swedes do so the population argument is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: BayGBM on May 06, 2009, 01:25:39 PM
The explosion in college costs (which started in the 80s) is intimately tied to the student loan industry.  It is a long and complicated story but, in brief, the easy access to student loans gave colleges (especially private colleges) a green light to raise prices up and up and up.

You can read more about it here http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/05/05/collinge

Bear in mind there are legitimate costs to running a university: building & maintenance, recruiting and keeping faculty, staff, supplies, utilities, health insurance, etc.  These costs never go away and they are constantly going up.  Have you ever balked at your electric or water bill?  Imagine what the electric or water bill is like for an entire dormitory (where almost no one pays attention to conservation).  Now, imagine what the cost is for an entire campus with dozens of buildings from dorms, to libraries, to administration buildings! 

Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 06, 2009, 02:29:58 PM
The explosion in college costs (which started in the 80s) is intimately tied to the student loan industry.  It is a long and complicated story but, in brief, the easy access to student loans gave colleges (especially private colleges) a green light to raise prices up and up and up.

You can read more about it here http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/05/05/collinge

Bear in mind there are legitimate costs to running a university: building & maintenance, recruiting and keeping faculty, staff, supplies, utilities, health insurance, etc.  These costs never go away and they are constantly going up.  Have you ever balked at your electric or water bill?  Imagine what the electric or water bill is like for an entire dormitory (where almost no one pays attention to conservation).  Now, imagine what the cost is for an entire campus with dozens of buildings from dorms, to libraries, to administration buildings! 



Good stuff.  Yep.

Free-flowing credit (which is really all student loans are) does little in the big picture than make everything more expensive for everybody.

It's basic economics. If a uni has 10000 people who can pay 3K/semester, tuition will be 3K. If they then have 20000 people who can pay 3K, and 10000 of those (thanks to student aid) are willing to pay 6K, guess what.... College tuition just went up 50%.  And nothing got better from the product side.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Deicide on May 06, 2009, 02:36:19 PM
Good stuff.  Yep.

Free-flowing credit (which is really all student loans are) does little in the big picture than make everything more expensive for everybody.

It's basic economics. If a uni has 10000 people who can pay 3K/semester, tuition will be 3K. If they then have 20000 people who can pay 3K, and 10000 of those are willing to pay 15K, guess what.... College tuition just went up 50%.  And nothing got better from the product side.

QFM
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: JOHN MATRIX on May 06, 2009, 03:06:34 PM
Because college is a BUSINESS...it is NOT about education. Tuitions have been on a furious rise for years, because the mindset in america is if you don't have a college education you will not get a job. Colleges looked at that mindset and said....We can raise our tuition to the sky, becasue the FEAR is without us their will be no career. So up the tuitions went without regard to student or parents income and with no option but to pay in order to go, students and parent were left with no option but to take out loans against their homes, student loans, work longer hours and hopefully get scholarships....

EDUCATION SHOULD NOT BE A BUSINESS

EXACTLY 100%!!!!

i DESPISE universities...just like insurance companies, they are simply businesses that people have no choice but to use. they are in a position that few other businesses are; they are assured of a huge number of customers that will increase year after year. because of this they do not need to worry about things like service or raising prices; they are accountable to nothing but themselves. they can inconvenience their customers any way they want, be careless and ignorant on a multitude of levels, and simply extort as much money out of their customers as they want because they know that no matter what people will still have to go there, and will pay whatever they ask and endure whatever inconveniences and hardships their actions may cause.

it should be a crime how badly they are exploiting kids and the community as a whole, absolutely swindling them at every turn- yet they are still largely viewed as these positive, benevolent institutions.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 06, 2009, 03:16:07 PM
Can you guys comment on this exchange regarding this VERY subject on college costs that I had with Doug_Steele Today?


I`d like to know your opinions.



Here is the link.  You may also want to go back a page and see the entire thing:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=278783.msg3945683#msg3945683
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 06, 2009, 03:43:42 PM
EXACTLY 100%!!!!

i DESPISE universities...just like insurance companies, they are simply businesses that people have no choice but to use. they are in a position that few other businesses are; they are assured of a huge number of customers that will increase year after year. because of this they do not need to worry about things like service or raising prices; they are accountable to nothing but themselves. they can inconvenience their customers any way they want, be careless and ignorant on a multitude of levels, and simply extort as much money out of their customers as they want because they know that no matter what people will still have to go there, and will pay whatever they ask and endure whatever inconveniences and hardships their actions may cause.

it should be a crime how badly they are exploiting kids and the community as a whole, absolutely swindling them at every turn- yet they are still largely viewed as these positive, benevolent institutions.

Good post.  Another issue is the costs of books that are charged.  Another ripp off.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: JOHN MATRIX on May 06, 2009, 04:46:16 PM
Good post.  Another issue is the costs of books that are charged.  Another ripp off.

yes the books are an absolute atrocity. this is one subject that really gets me deeply angry, i could literally write a thesis paper on the exploitation that universities inflict on kids.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 06, 2009, 04:49:11 PM
yes the books are an absolute atrocity. this is one subject that really gets me deeply angry, i could literally write a thesis paper on the exploitation that universities inflict on kids.
Parking Tickets REALLY boil my blood.  >:(
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Deicide on May 06, 2009, 04:56:26 PM
Parking Tickets REALLY boil my blood.  >:(

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/south.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: MB_722 on May 06, 2009, 05:09:57 PM
Nice try, but we already spend more per capita per student for education and more per capita per person for Healthcare.  That renders the population size irrelevant as implementing a Universal System in both is projected to lower the per capita cost from what we are paying.

Your argument is meaningless.

seriously dude you are fucked.

Deicide is spot on
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 06, 2009, 05:13:30 PM
seriously dude you are fucked.

Deicide is spot on
Again,

We spend more per capita per student and more per capita per person on healthcare, thus the population argument is completely meaningless.

Is this concept too difficult to understand?  If so, I will help you understand it. Let me know.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: BayGBM on May 06, 2009, 06:07:50 PM
Another reason for the rise in costs is ego; everyone is playing the prestige game: students want to go to an "elite" private college.  A quality education can be had for a fraction of the cost at a public university.  In fact, if you are looking for a good value, skip the private colleges entirely and go to a highly ranked state institution (preferably one in your own state).  Here in California, the better UC campuses are just as good (if not better) than the name brand private schools everyone is familiar with.  UNC, U. Mass, U. of Michigan, U. of Maryland, UVA, are all examples of excellent state schools.  You can find plenty of great affordable state schools using U.S. News college rankings.

Someone of modest means who is trying to avoid big loans should go to a good community college and then finish at the state university.  Right there you’ve saved a ton of money!

There are lots of kids out there with big student loans holding degrees from name brand and generic private colleges and no marketable skills.  It's ridiculous!  The student loan industry has run amok and is abusing millions of students.  Executives are getting rich and the lives of young people are being destroyed.  Look at these testimonials http://www.studentloanjustice.org/victims.htm   :'(

Buying a Lexus is fine if you have money to burn.  But why waste money you do not have (and go deep into debt) when you can buy a Toyota and get the same quality? ???

Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Hereford on May 06, 2009, 06:24:50 PM
Aren't Lexus and Toyota the same thing?
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: BayGBM on May 06, 2009, 06:38:00 PM
Aren't Lexus and Toyota the same thing?

My point exactly!

By the way, Health Education Assistance Loan (HEAL) borrowers in default on their loans are published quarterly by law. You can see them all listed by name, discipline, state, amount due and school.  These borrowers have

--had one or more default claims paid by the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS);
--been excluded from the Medicare program as a result of his or her HEAL default; and
--not had the Medicare exclusion stayed, or lifted, by the Office of Inspector General as a result of entering a settlement agreement.

You can see your local borrowers in default here http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/state.asp   :'(

Here is one guy picked at random:

Last Name:      Borden
First Name:      Mark
Middle Initial: G
Amount Due: $619,398
City:    Santa Barbara
State:    CA
School:    LOYOLA UNIVERSITY CHICAGO
Discipline:    Dentistry
City:    CHICAGO
State:    IL
Graduation/Separation:    5/15/1982

I can guarantee you that someone you know is buried under student loan debt they cannot pay.  And unlike other debt, student loan debt cannot be discharged via bankruptcy.  Even if you are old and infirm, they can and will garnish portions of your social security.  Virtually the only way to escape student loan debt is to die!

Assuming you are not independently wealthy, how the hell are you supposed to make your way in life with student loan debts that have spiraled to $619K?

Suddenly, G4P isn't looking so bad.  :D
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The True Adonis on May 06, 2009, 06:44:38 PM
Aren't Lexus and Toyota the same thing?
A fact will remain  the same whether it is taught or learned in a high school, in prison or at Harvard.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Fury on May 06, 2009, 08:05:11 PM
Another reason for the rise in costs is ego; everyone is playing the prestige game: students want to go to an "elite" private college.  A quality education can be had for a fraction of the cost at a public university.  In fact, if you are looking for a good value, skip the private colleges entirely and go to a highly ranked state institution (preferably one in your own state).  Here in California, the better UC campuses are just as good (if not better) than the name brand private schools everyone is familiar with.  UNC, U. Mass, U. of Michigan, U. of Maryland, UVA, are all examples of excellent state schools.  You can find plenty of great affordable state schools using U.S. News college rankings.

Someone of modest means who is trying to avoid big loans should go to a good community college and then finish at the state university.  Right there you’ve saved a ton of money!

There are lots of kids out there with big student loans holding degrees from name brand and generic private colleges and no marketable skills.  It's ridiculous!  The student loan industry has run amok and is abusing millions of students.  Executives are getting rich and the lives of young people are being destroyed.  Look at these testimonials http://www.studentloanjustice.org/victims.htm   :'(

Buying a Lexus is fine if you have money to burn.  But why waste money you do not have (and go deep into debt) when you can buy a Toyota and get the same quality? ???



Multiple studies have shown that after roughly 10 years, the average salaries of those with an Ivy League degree and those from somewhere else pretty much converge. It's only in the beginning that they're generally higher. That said, I'll be taking a class at a top private school this summer to finish a requirement and probably do grad school at a private college. Should be interesting to see the difference.

Either way, you don't do undergrad or grad school at a top private school for the knowledge. You go for the connections.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The Master on May 06, 2009, 09:05:38 PM
Multiple studies have shown that after roughly 10 years, the average salaries of those with an Ivy League degree and those from somewhere else pretty much converge. It's only in the beginning that they're generally higher. That said, I'll be taking a class at a top private school this summer to finish a requirement and probably do grad school at a private college. Should be interesting to see the difference.

Either way, you don't do undergrad or grad school at a top private school for the knowledge. You go for the connections.


Except if you're into stuff like mathematics and physics and you want to get access to the best training possible (which usually = at the best private institutions).
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on May 06, 2009, 09:09:32 PM
seriously dude you are fucked.



QFT

Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Fury on May 06, 2009, 10:43:49 PM

Except if you're into stuff like mathematics and physics and you want to get access to the best training possible (which usually = at the best private institutions).

True. If I could do it again I would major in math/physics and minor in computer science.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: The Master on May 06, 2009, 10:47:00 PM
True. If I could do it again I would major in math/physics and minor in computer science.

Outstanding!
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: JOHN MATRIX on May 07, 2009, 09:10:25 AM
Parking Tickets REALLY boil my blood.  >:(
the most angry ive ever been in my whole life was dealing with these people.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 07, 2009, 09:11:43 AM
the most angry ive ever been in my whole life was dealing with these people.

The books thing is a complete scam. These kids are captive to these thieves. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: JOHN MATRIX on May 07, 2009, 09:20:39 AM
its not just books either. for students living on campus, especially with those without cars, all the campus stores where you buy food/groceries/supplies know they basically have a captive audience, therefore they sell groceries around 2-3 times the normal retail price.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Soul Crusher on May 07, 2009, 09:21:34 AM
its not just books either. for students living on campus, especially with those without cars, all the campus stores where you buy food/groceries/supplies know they basically have a captive audience, therefore they sell groceries around 2-3 times the normal retail price.

I probably a lot cheaper to live off campus and rent a huge house with other people, but then, what type of living is that?. 
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: Deicide on May 07, 2009, 09:28:21 AM

Except if you're into stuff like mathematics and physics and you want to get access to the best training possible (which usually = at the best private institutions).

With (post)graduate studies it is the department that matters which is often an independent thing in relation to the rest of the university.
Title: Re: Why is college so expensive?
Post by: JOHN MATRIX on May 07, 2009, 09:48:02 AM
I probably a lot cheaper to live off campus and rent a huge house with other people, but then, what type of living is that?. 

alot of universities require first-year students live on campus. where you will pay an exhorbitant amount for a one-room hole to share with another human.