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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Deicide on May 14, 2009, 02:59:46 PM
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When we have an abundance of documentation and textual evidence that shows it to have been in no way founded on any such principles?
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Much of the documentation and textual evidence I have looked into show that many of the men that founded this country and the primary figures guiding its secret desinty today follow the mystery religions based on the occult.
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Much of the documentation and textual evidence I have looked into show that many of the men that founded this country and the primary figures guiding its secret desinty today follow the mystery religions based on the occult.
They were deists, as was often the case with Enlightenment intellectuals.
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The vast majority of the founders were Athiests... Benjamin Franklin, Washington, Jefferson to name a few... Religion shoudlnt be involved in any part of government... Its fake, a fraud, a lie and cause more probs than anything else in the world..
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The vast majority of the founders were Athiests... Benjamin Franklin, Washington, Jefferson to name a few... Religion shoudlnt be involved in any part of government... Its fake, a fraud, a lie and cause more probs than anything else in the world..
They weren't atheists, but rather deists, as was standard at the time for such intellectuals.
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Here are some of the quotes of former presidents in regard to any belief in GOD
George Washington: "The United States is in no sense founded upon
Christian Doctrine"
Thomas Jefferson: "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there
are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
Thomas Paine: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church,
by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the
Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own
Church.
Roger Williams: God requireth not a uniformity of religion.
Thomas Jefferson: The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus,
by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be
classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of
Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and the freedom of
thought in these United States will do away with this artificial
scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of
this most venerated Reformer of human errors.
James Madison: During almost fifteen centuries the legal establishment
known as Christianity has been on trial, and what have been the fruits,
more or less, in all places? These are the fruits: pride, indolence,
ignorance, and arrogance in the clergy. Ignorance, arrogance, and
servility in the laity, and in both clergy and laity, superstition,
bigotry, and persecution.
Thomas Jefferson: I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming
feature.
John Adams: The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths,
Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in
Christianity.
Thomas Paine: Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in
religion is the worst."
Abraham Lincoln: The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my
religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of
Christian dogma.
And finally....
Benjamin Franklin: As to Jesus of Nazareth, I think the system of Morals
and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or
is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting
Changes, and I have, with the most of the present Dissenters in England,
some doubts to his divinity.
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They weren't atheists, but rather deists, as was standard at the time for such intellectuals.
Is that right?
Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence
Name of Signer---------State-------------Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll-------Maryland---------Catholic
Samuel Huntington-------- Connecticut---------- Congregationalist
Roger Sherman--------- Connecticut--------- Congregationalist
William Williams----------- Connecticut----------- Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott -----------Connecticut----------- Congregationalist
Lyman Hall------------ Georgia------------ Congregationalist
Samuel Adams------------ Massachusetts------------ Congregationalist
John Hancock------------ Massachusetts------------ Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett------------ New Hampshire------------ Congregationalist
William Whipple ------------ New Hampshire------------ Congregationalist
William Ellery------------ Rhode Island------------ Congregationalist
John Adams------------ Massachusett------------ s Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine------------ Massachusett------------ s Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton------------ Georgia------------ Episcopalian
John Penn------------ North Carolina------------ Episcopalian
George Ross------------ Pennsylvania------------ Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr.------------ South Carolina------------ Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr.------------ South Carolina------------ Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton------------ South Carolina------------ Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge------------ South Carolina------------ Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee------------ Virginia------------ Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee------------ Virginia------------ Episcopalian
George Read------------ Delaware------------ Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney------------ Delaware------------ Episcopalian
Samuel Chase------------ Maryland------------ Episcopalian
William Paca------------ Maryland------------ Episcopalian
Thomas Stone ------------ Maryland------------ Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry------------ Massachusetts------------ Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson ------------ New Jersey------------ Episcopalian
Francis Lewis ------------ New York------------ Episcopalian
Lewis Morris------------ New York------------ Episcopalian
William Hooper----------- North Carolina----------- Episcopalian
Robert Morris----------- Pennsylvania----------- Episcopalian
John Morton----------- Pennsylvania----------- Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins----------- Rhode Island----------- Episcopalian
Carter Braxton----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr.----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian
George Wythe----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin----------- Pennsylvania----------- Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett----------- Georgia----------- Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson----------- Pennsylvania -----------Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes-----------North Carolina------------ Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer----------- Pennsylvania------------- Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean------------ Delaware----------- Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton-------------- New Hampshire----------- Presbyterian
Abraham Clark------------ New Jersey------------ Presbyterian
John Hart------------- New Jersey------------ Presbyterian
Richard Stockton---------- New Jersey------------- Presbyterian
John Witherspoon------------- New Jersey----------- Presbyterian
William Floyd---------- New York-------------- Presbyterian
Philip Livingston------------ New York------------ Presbyterian
James Smith---------- Pennsylvania---------- Presbyterian
George Taylor---------- Pennsylvania---------- Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush---------- Pennsylvania--------- Presbyterian
And there's plenty more from which that came. Check the men who signed the Constitution.
Religious Affiliation------ # of Delegates-------- % of Delegates
Episcopalian/Anglican--------- 31--------- 56.4%
Presbyterian--------- 16----------- 29.1%
Congregationalist-------- 8 --------14.5%
Quaker --------3-------- 5.5%
Catholic-------- 2 --------3.6%
Methodist-------- 2-------- 3.6%
Lutheran-------- 2-------- 3.6%
Dutch Reformed-------- 2-------- 3.6%
TOTAL --------55 --------100%
http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html (http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html)
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As far as quotes from presidents go,
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." - John Adams, December 25, 1813, letter to Thomas Jefferson
Two more from John Adams:
The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." (October 11, 1798)
The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.” - John Quincy Adams, "Letters to his son". p. 61
God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” Benjamin Franklin, Constitutional Convention of 1787
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” - Thomas Jefferson
This guy wasn't a president; but, I thought I'd throw his quote into the mix, because it fits nicely. ;D
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry, Speech to the House of Burgesses, May 1765.
Here’s one that would make the ACLU and most folks on the left CRINGE:
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ” – George Washington, Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs, May 12, 1779
From Washington’s Farewell Address (verse 27)
Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm (http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm)
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Much of the documentation and textual evidence I have looked into show that many of the men that founded this country and the primary figures guiding its secret desinty today follow the mystery religions based on the occult.
Ancient Babylonian theology - to be precise.
Which went on to become - Ancient Egyptian.
Hence all the (what looks to the lay-man) to be Egyptian symbolism all over the place, in any lodge you care to take a tour of.
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As far as quotes from presidents go,
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." - John Adams, December 25, 1813, letter to Thomas Jefferson
Two more from John Adams:
The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." (October 11, 1798)
The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.” - John Quincy Adams, "Letters to his son". p. 61
God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” Benjamin Franklin, Constitutional Convention of 1787
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” - Thomas Jefferson
This guy wasn't a president; but, I thought I'd throw his quote into the mix, because it fits nicely. ;D
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry, Speech to the House of Burgesses, May 1765.
Here’s one that would make the ACLU and most folks on the left CRINGE:
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ” – George Washington, Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs, May 12, 1779
From Washington’s Farewell Address (verse 27)
Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm (http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm)
And what about all those other quotes MCWAY? It is very clear that Thomas Jefferson thought Christianity silly and infantile as did others. You cannot simply ignore this.
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And what about all those other quotes MCWAY? It is very clear that Thomas Jefferson thought Christianity silly and infantile as did others. You cannot simply ignore this.
That list was hardly exhaustive, Deicide. The point, which you apparently missed, is that the lion’s share of the Founding Fathers (presidents and others) made it clear that their Judeo-Christian beliefs were at the heart of this country’s being.
Furthermore, genius, I quoted Jefferson when I posted that list. Plus, it appears that you "conveniently" forget that Jefferson penned the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, which I believe stated, that men are “endowed by their CREATOR with certain inalienable rights”.
I wonder to whom he could be referring (Hint: It ain't Buddha or Allah).
But, since you're in the mood for Jefferson quotes, here's another.
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
To go along with what I posted earlier, which was.....
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
BTW, here's another guy who found Chrisitianity "silly and infantile" ::)
“Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government, without which they can never act as a wise part of the government of societies, great or small in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” – Samuel Adams
As usual, you make foolish claims, with little more to back it up than gibberish that can rather easily be refuted. Bottom line: Why do so many people believe that the USA was founded on Christian principles?
Answer: THE FOUNDING FATHERS SAID SO!!!
NEXT!!!
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That list was hardly exhaustive, Deicide. The point, which you apparently missed, is that the lion’s share of the Founding Fathers (presidents and others) made it clear that their Judeo-Christian beliefs were at the heart of this country’s being.
Furthermore, genius, I quoted Jefferson when I posted that list. Plus, it appears that you "conveniently" forget that Jefferson penned the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, which I believe stated, that men are “endowed by their CREATOR with certain inalienable rights”.
I wonder to whom he could be referring (Hint: It ain't Buddha or Allah).
But, since you're in the mood for Jefferson quotes, here's another.
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
To go along with what I posted earlier, which was.....
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
BTW, here's another guy who found Chrisitianity "silly and infantile" ::)
“Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government, without which they can never act as a wise part of the government of societies, great or small in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” – Samuel Adams
None of them believed in the miracles and other inventions that are so essential to Christianity as you can see from the citations. And then there are rock solid statements about the USA 'in no way founded on Christian principles'. I know fundies wish it were that way but the USA was founded as a secular state.
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This is a very interesting thread
I might describe myself as a Deist.
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This is a very interesting thread
I might describe myself as a Deists.
Do you mean deist?
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None of them believed in the miracles and other inventions that are so essential to Christianity as you can see from the citations. And then there are rock solid statements about the USA 'in no way founded on Christian principles'. I know fundies wish it were that way but the USA was founded as a secular state.
You mean rock-solid statements like those of Henry?
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
Or rock solid statements like those John Jay?
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
Or, this rock-solid statement from James McHenry?
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.
Or perhaps, you mean rock-solid statements like this one from Charles Carroll:
Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."
"Fundies" don't need to wish. It's a fact, backed by the words of the Founding Fathers themselves, contrary to your woefully inaccurate diatribes.
As for your flap about lack of belief in the miracles and such, take a GOOD LOOOOOOONG LOOK at the denominational breakdown of the Founding Fathers. In nearly all of those demoninations are the fundamental beliefs, regarding the birth, death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
But, don't take my words for it:
The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” - John Adams
“If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.” Benjamin Rush
i]Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"? – John Quincy Adams
It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author. The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” Thomas Paine, “The Existence of God", 1810
So much for the secular state stuff!! Got any more foolishness to spout, Deicide?
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To add to this thread..To say or have someone say I AM A CHRISTIAN means nothing. Ones actions tell if they are a Christian. I can liken it to a Catholic priest saying he is a man of the cloth as he rapes a young boy in the back of the church..mouth says one thing, actions say another. So far as presidents of america go...None spared the lives of the Native People who were far more CHRISTIAN than any of these HEATHEN presidents could ever be. To have gone on killing/murderous rampages against the same people who shared THEIR LAND, THEIR NATURAL RESOURCES and THEIR LABORS tells of a different mindset than what mcway is trying to present. One president after another made it his business to steal greater and greater parts of america from the Native People until they were relegated to concentration camps called RESERVATIONS...Christian? HARDLY. Add to the "Christian" claims the Slave Trade and the killing of MILLIONS of Negroes being brought to america and the enslavement of them in america. Maybe these so called presidents should have reviewed the Bible in regard to Murder, Covetousness, False Witness, Stealing, Having no other god (all presidents Freeemasons with their own god) etc etc. Here is how so many are DECEIVED...they listen to the mouth of persons claiming to be Christian, but pay no attention to the ACTIONS. The american televangelist are the perfect examples of this...pretending to PREACH THE WORD, all the while their only goal is MONEY.
So for all of the claims being made by mcway and those who want to Christianize these former presidents I say FORGET IT. These guys were and are nothing more than a collection of swindling murderers, thieves, liars, con-men, charlatans etc...the same as the presidents of america today.
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To add to this thread..To say or have someone say I AM A CHRISTIAN means nothing. Ones actions tell if they are a Christian. I can liken it to a Catholic priest saying he is a man of the cloth as he rapes a young boy in the back of the church..mouth says one thing, actions say another. So far as presidents of america go...None spared the lives of the Native People who were far more CHRISTIAN than any of these HEATHEN presidents could ever be. To have gone on killing/murderous rampages against the same people who shared THEIR LAND, THEIR NATURAL RESOURCES and THEIR LABORS tells of a different mindset than what mcway is trying to present. One president after another made it his business to steal greater and greater parts of america from the Native People until they were relegated to concentration camps called RESERVATIONS...Christian? HARDLY. Add to the "Christian" claims the Slave Trade and the killing of MILLIONS of Negroes being brought to america and the enslavement of them in america. Maybe these so called presidents should have reviewed the Bible in regard to Murder, Covetousness, False Witness, Stealing, Having no other god (all presidents Freeemasons with their own god) etc etc. Here is how so many are DECEIVED...they listen to the mouth of persons claiming to be Christian, but pay no attention to the ACTIONS. The american televangelist are the perfect examples of this...pretending to PREACH THE WORD, all the while their only goal is MONEY.
So for all of the claims being made by mcway and those who want to Christianize these former presidents I say FORGET IT. These guys were and are nothing more than a collection of swindling murderers, thieves, liars, con-men, charlatans etc...the same as the presidents of america today.
No one's trying to "Christianize" those former presidents. Those are their own words.
You were quick to use their quote to claim that they didn't believe in God. But, when faced with statements to the contrary from those same men (and others) you come up with this lame excuse.
No one claimed that they were perfect (their shortcomings and ill deeds are well-documented). But the issue here is that they believe and it was their intent to form this nation upon Christian priniciples, far contrary to Deicide's factually-bankrupt claims.
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Do you mean deist?
Of course, why even ask? ::) ;D
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John Adams
Letter to Zabdiel Adams, 21 June 1776:
Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty.
Letter to Abigail Adams, 3 July 1776:
The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward for evermore.
Diary, 26 July 1796:
The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity.
Address to the Military, 11 October 1798:
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.
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Benjamin Franklin
Letter to Messrs, the Abbes Chalut, and Arnaud, 17 April 1787:
Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
Constitutional Convention, 1787:
In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor.… and have we not forgotten this powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: “that God governs in the affairs of man.” And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? …
I believe farther that this [new government under the Constitution] is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.
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Thomas Jefferson
Notes on Virginia, 1782:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.
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George Washington
Circular letter of farewell to the Army, 8 June 1783:
I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation.
First Inaugural Address, 30 April 1789:
No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.
First Inaugural Address, 30 April 1789:
The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.
Letter to General Assembly of Presbyterian Churches, May 1789:
While all men within our territories are protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of their consciences; it is rationally expected from them in return, that they will be emulous of evincing the sanctity of their professions by the innocence of their lives, and the beneficence of their actions: for no man, who is profligate in his morals, or a bad member of the civil community, can possibly be a true Christian, or a credit to his own religious society.
Farewell Address, 1796:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.… And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.… Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
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John Jay, one of the framers of the Constitution, was appointed by George Washington in 1789 to be the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States (and later served two terms as governor of New York). He wrote, in a private letter(1797) to clergyman Jedidiah Morse:
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world. Whatever may be the virtue, discernment, and industry of the writers, I am persuaded that truth and error (though in different degrees) will imperceptibly become and remain mixed and blended until they shall be separated forever by the great and last refining fire."
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And what about all those other quotes MCWAY? It is very clear that Thomas Jefferson thought Christianity silly and infantile as did others. You cannot simply ignore this.
Actually, though at some point in his life he rejected Jesus' divinity and miracles, Thomas Jefferson was always a great admirer of Jesus, Jesus' life and teachings. Thomas Jefferson went as far as to write his own version of the Gospels which simply took the four Biblical gospels and then took out all of Jesus' miracles and claims to divinity, but kept everything else about Jesus' life and teachings. He even said that he admired Christianity's moral teachings and that, in that sense at least, he himself was a Christian.
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No one's trying to "Christianize" those former presidents. Those are their own words.
Certainly they are trying to Christianize them. If you have attended any speeches on these former presidents or watched the documentaries there is always the mentioning of these guys as being men of God or believing in God. However the bulk of them from Washington on were FREEMASONS (satanic worshipers) or outright atheist. Never is the MASONIC involvement mentioned in documentaries or book or lectures (as it would expose their real character) and again the actions of a person speaks volumes of their mindset and belief over what their mouth claims.
You were quick to use their quote to claim that they didn't believe in God. But, when faced with statements to the contrary from those same men (and others) you come up with this lame excuse.
There were no statements to the contrary. You spoke of Quincy Adams supposedly being a Christian I posted the quotes of other presidents who made it clear they had no belief in GOD or the founding of america on any Christian beliefs/foundation...re-read my post... no lame excuse only the truth.
No one claimed that they were perfect (their shortcomings and ill deeds are well-documented). But the issue here is that they believe and it was their intent to form this nation upon Christian priniciples, far contrary to Deicide's factually-bankrupt claims.
You are right...NO ONE IS PERFECT, but these blatant LIES being told on these men being CHRISTIAN is ludicrous to say the least. They have nothing to show that they followed a single Biblical commandment and plenty of facts showing they operated to the contrary. Operating on the contrary makes the claim of founding america on Christian values/principles becomes a FLAT OUT LIE. The MASONS tried to create a SATANIC homeland called america where they can worship their FALSE GOD and exercise all the ills of the occult practice that continues to this day: Bohemian Grove, Skull and Bones, Key and Scroll, Bilderbergs etc etc all SCREAM what america and its founders are really all about....
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No one's trying to "Christianize" those former presidents. Those are their own words.
You were quick to use their quote to claim that they didn't believe in God. But, when faced with statements to the contrary from those same men (and others) you come up with this lame excuse.
No one claimed that they were perfect (their shortcomings and ill deeds are well-documented). But the issue here is that they believe and it was their intent to form this nation upon Christian priniciples, far contrary to Deicide's factually-bankrupt claims.
They were deists in the sense that they believed in a first cause; most rejected all the miracles and other fiction found in the Bible, Thomas Jefferson likening it to Greek mythology. Without the miracles there isn't much left to Christianity except a much of some 'moral' contradictions. You jump the gun. I never said they didn't believe in a god, just not the Christian one. Thomas Paine, who was a large contributor to the foundations of the USA called the god of the Bible, a barbarian and tyrant. As far as factually bankrupt claims are concerned, you are the king, since even Loco is willing to admit he believes the claims of the Bible on faith and not fact, yet you claim the miracles are historical 'facts', laughable, no wonder the founders rejected such utter nonsense.
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Actually, though at some point in his life he rejected Jesus' divinity and miracles, Thomas Jefferson was always a great admirer of Jesus, Jesus' life and teachings. Thomas Jefferson went as far as to write his own version of the Gospels which simply took the four Biblical gospels and then took out all of Jesus' miracles and claims to divinity, but kept everything else about Jesus' life and teachings. He even said that he admired Christianity's moral teachings and that, in that sense at least, he himself was a Christian.
Well, without the miracles, you really don't have Christianity anymore, do you?
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This is another idiotic thread where the brainwashed fanatics toss the facts straight out the window. McWay has it right, as usual.
Most of the people who founded this country were Christian. If you want to break the definition of "Christian" into semantics be my guest. Nobody is arguing that this country was founded by fundamentalist christians ala George W Bush. But the fact of the matter is that they were Christians nonetheless. Even if you want to really nitpick, the bottom line is that all of them believed in god or some sort of higher power. No atheists period and certainly no Muslims.
That's good enough for me.
PS- What Christian principles do you maintain are not the basis of this countries foundation? The tenets of christianity and all major religions follow a similar moral code which permeates every civilized country on earth ( except the muslim ones). I fail to see your point ( or anyone elses) on this topic.
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The vast majority of the founders were Athiests... Benjamin Franklin, Washington, Jefferson to name a few... Religion shoudlnt be involved in any part of government... Its fake, a fraud, a lie and cause more probs than anything else in the world..
Busted obviously learned how to read and write at the same school that taught Jaguar about Canada's resounding victory over the US in the war of 1812 and taught Slapper his Kung Fu theory on military technology.
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This is another idiotic thread where the brainwashed fanatics toss the facts straight out the window. McWay has it right, as usual.
Most of the people who founded this country were Christian. If you want to break the definition of "Christian" into semantics be my guest. Nobody is arguing that this country was founded by fundamentalist christians ala George W Bush. But the fact of the matter is that they were Christians nonetheless. Even if you want to really nitpick, the bottom line is that all of them believed in god or some sort of higher power. No atheists period and certainly no Muslims.
That's good enough for me.
PS- What Christian principles do you maintain are not the basis of this countries foundation? The tenets of christianity and all major religions follow a similar moral code which permeates every civilized country on earth ( except the muslim ones). I fail to see your point ( or anyone elses) on this topic.
Deism is a far cry from Christianity.
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They were deists in the sense that they believed in a first cause; most rejected all the miracles and other fiction found in the Bible, Thomas Jefferson likening it to Greek mythology. Without the miracles there isn't much left to Christianity except a much of some 'moral' contradictions. You jump the gun. I never said they didn't believe in a god, just not the Christian one. Thomas Paine, who was a large contributor to the foundations of the USA called the god of the Bible, a barbarian and tyrant. As far as factually bankrupt claims are concerned, you are the king, since even Loco is willing to admit he believes the claims of the Bible on faith and not fact, yet you claim the miracles are historical 'facts', laughable, no wonder the founders rejected such utter nonsense.
I have Paine's quote listed front and center. He talks about the Creator. Take a wild guess as to whom he's referring.
Furthermore, the Founding Fathers, INCLUDING JEFFERSON, state the Deity to whom they make reference, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. Apparently, you missed that in your usual flappings.
If that weren't silly enough, Loco has hardly stated the he believes the claims of the Bible just on faith and not on fact. Inf act, he has repeatedly reminded you (and others) of the numerous claims, made by past atheists and skeptics, that have been shot to pieces once the historical and archaeological data have come to the surface.
Back to the Founding Fathers, they believed in the miracles, as well. A prime example would be one John Quincy Adams. Per the statement I posted from him, he believed that the independence of this nation was so great that its observation was (July 4th) the greatest holiday on Earth, with the SOLE EXECPTION OF "the birthday of the Savior of the world".
The words of the Founders are right here, in black and white, and they repeatedly refute the utter buffoonery you continue to dribble from your lips.
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The vast majority of the founders were Athiests... Benjamin Franklin, Washington, Jefferson to name a few... Religion shoudlnt be involved in any part of government... Its fake, a fraud, a lie and cause more probs than anything else in the world..
You mean THIS Benjamin Franklin?
God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”
THIS Thomas Jefferson?
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
And THIS George Washington?
It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
And they’re atheists? ::)
I’m sorry! What manner of crack are you smoking today? Not only were the Founding Fathers NOT atheists, but I do recall listing the breakdown of the denominations to which these men were affiliated (these would be the men who signed the Declaration of Independence AND the Constitution).
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I have Paine's quote listed front and center. He talks about the Creator. Take a wild guess as to whom he's referring.
All rhetoric and angry language with little to back it up. Thomas Paine is referring to the Deist creator, not the Christian one.
The opinions I have advanced . . . are the effect of the most clear and long-established conviction that the Bible and the Testament are impositions upon the world, that the fall of man, the account of Jesus Christ being the Son of God, and of his dying to appease the wrath of God, and of salvation, by that strange means, are all fabulous inventions, dishonorable to the wisdom and power of the Almighty; that the only true religion is Deism, by which I then meant, and mean now, the belief of one God, and an imitation of his moral character, or the practice of what are called moral virtues – and that it was upon this only (so far as religion is concerned) that I rested all my hopes of happiness hereafter. So say I now – and so help me God.
-Thomas Paine, Age of Reason
The Bible represents God with all the passions of a mortal, and the Creation proclaims him with all the attributes of a God.It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man. That bloodthirsty man, called the prophet Samuel, makes God to say, (i Sam. xv. 3,) "Now go and smite Amaleck, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."That Samuel or some other impostor might say this, is what, at this distance of time, can neither be proved nor disproved, but in my opinion it is blasphemy to say, or to believe, that God said it. All our ideas of the justice and goodness of God revolt at the impious cruelty of the Bible. It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes.
-Thomas Paine, Response to a Christian Friend
Not a Christian, right in your face MCWAY. The only true religion is deism? Doesn't sound like Christianity to me. Sounds like he thinks Christianity is bullshit. He was a deist, not a Christian.
Furthermore, the Founding Fathers, INCLUDING JEFFERSON, state the Deity to whom they make reference, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. Apparently, you missed that in your usual flappings.
Really? They call the Deity Jesus Christ? Jefferson did NOT believe in miracles, which is tantamount to a rejection of Christianity.
...that the Christianity of the churches was unreasonable, therefore unbelievable, but that stripped of priestly mystery, ritual, and dogma, reinterpreted in the light of historical evidence and human experience, and substituting the Newtonian cosmology for the discredited Biblical one, Christianity could be conformed to reason. Second, morality required no divine sanction or inspiration, no appeal beyond reason and nature, perhaps not even the hope of heaven or the fear of hell; and so the whole edifice of Christian revelation came tumbling to the ground.
-Merrill D. Peterson, Biographer of Thomas Jefferson
In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher. He was not an orthodox Christian because he rejected, among other things, the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God. Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day.
-Avery Dulles, Laurence J. McGinley Professor of Religion and Society at Fordham University
Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. ... Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you. -- (Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217)
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.
Letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp (30 July 1816), denouncing the doctrine of the Trinity
Once again, not a Christian, having firmly rejected miracles.
If that weren't silly enough, Loco has hardly stated the he believes the claims of the Bible just on faith and not on fact. Inf act, he has repeatedly reminded you (and others) of the numerous claims, made by past atheists and skeptics, that have been shot to pieces once the historical and archaeological data have come to the surface.
We can ask Loco if his Christianity is founded on faith or fact. I think you will be disappointed.
Back to the Founding Fathers, they believed in the miracles, as well. A prime example would be one John Quincy Adams. Per the statement I posted from him, he believed that the independence of this nation was so great that its observation was (July 4th) the greatest holiday on Earth, with the SOLE EXECPTION OF "the birthday of the Savior of the world".
The words of the Founders are right here, in black and white, and they repeatedly refute the utter buffoonery you continue to dribble from your lips.
The founders believed in miracles? Why did Jefferson edit out all the miracles in the NT? You suffer from all the typical self-righteousness of most Christians in your inability to concede being wrong, in even the slightest.
" As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion ...."
Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary.
As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed?"
Letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
" Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism, which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews, and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents, wave succeeding wave in the Catholic church, from the Council of Nice, and long before, to this day."
To Jefferson, Dec. 3, 1813
-John Adams
Does that sound like they believed in miracles? There might have been a small handful, but the vast majority of them were affirmed deists, which is NOT the same as being a Christian.
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It's weird how all those alleged Christians left God and Jesus out of the Constitution and the Presidential oath is not made to Jesus and no bible is required during the oath.
You'd think one of those devote christians would have caught something like that.
This quote from Jefferson is a classic example of how he really looked at Jesus. He didn't view Jesus as a God but rather as a sort of philosopher. Jefferson's "real christian" is nothing like the wack jobs of his day or ours
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
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I knew loco and McWay would lay the smack down in this thread. :D
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I knew loco and McWay would lay the smack down in this thread. :D
The smack down? are you drunk? I just showed firm evidence that most of the founders were deists.
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I knew loco and McWay would lay the smack down in this thread.
QFT
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QFT
Wow, most of the founders thought miracles were bunk and other garbage and that Jesus was not divine and you don't get that...
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All rhetoric and angry language with little to back it up. Thomas Paine is referring to the Deist creator, not the Christian one.
They are one and the same.
Not a Christian, right in your face MCWAY. The only true religion is deism? Doesn't sound like Christianity to me. Sounds like he thinks Christianity is bullshit. He was a deist, not a Christian.
Really? They call the Deity Jesus Christ? Jefferson did NOT believe in miracles, which is tantamount to a rejection of Christianity.
Yes, they did. Both John and John Quincy Adams did, the latter referring to the birth of Christ as the only holiday that should be more signficiant that the 4th of July. Same goes for John Hancock, Alexandar Hamilton and others.
As for Jefferson's being a deist, the mere fact that he believes in a Creator shoots down your ENTIRE premise of America supposedly being a secular nation, or Busted's warped take that Jefferson and others were atheists. They believed in a DEITY, which disqualifies them from being atheists.
With many other Founding Fathers believing in Jesus Christ as Lord (the point I made long ago, which is why you continue to harp on Jefferson), my point still stands.
We can ask Loco if his Christianity is founded on faith or fact. I think you will be disappointed.
There is no either/or. His Christianity is founded on BOTH, as Loco will tell you, himself.
The founders believed in miracles? Why did Jefferson edit out all the miracles in the NT? You suffer from all the typical self-righteousness of most Christians in your inability to concede being wrong, in even the slightest.
You suffer from the simple inability to comprehend, at times. The key word: FOUNDERS, as in there are others BESIDES Jefferson, many of whom were Christians, as I've clearly stated using their words.
Does that sound like they believed in miracles? There might have been a small handful, but the vast majority of them were affirmed deists, which is NOT the same as being a Christian.
Once again, I've listed those men in black-and-white, and the denominations to which they're affiliated (and that's just the short list). But, if you want to continue with your futile attempts at revisionist history, knock yourself out.
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The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians!!! >:(
The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.
This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.
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Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." 1
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George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance. 2
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John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievements' but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." 3
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Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained." 4
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James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." 5
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Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature." 6
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Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." 7 He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
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The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.
The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.
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1 The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)
2 George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)
3 The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.
4 Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.
5 The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.
6 Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)
7 Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.
Edit: This is the 2nd time on these boards that I have soundly debunked the lie propagated by Christians.
Hopefully, no mods with Christian biases will choose to censor the truth like they did the last time.
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They are one and the same.
Perhaps to you, ...but that is irrelevant. The question is, were they the same to him? Clearly they were not!
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The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians!!! >:(
Tell that to these men:
Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence
Name of Signer---------State-------------Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll-------Maryland---------Catholic
Samuel Huntington-------- Connecticut---------- Congregationalist
Roger Sherman--------- Connecticut--------- Congregationalist
William Williams----------- Connecticut----------- Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott -----------Connecticut----------- Congregationalist
Lyman Hall------------ Georgia------------ Congregationalist
Samuel Adams------------ Massachusetts------------ Congregationalist
John Hancock------------ Massachusetts------------ Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett------------ New Hampshire------------ Congregationalist
William Whipple ------------ New Hampshire------------ Congregationalist
William Ellery------------ Rhode Island------------ Congregationalist
John Adams------------ Massachusett------------ s Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine------------ Massachusett------------ s Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton------------ Georgia------------ Episcopalian
John Penn------------ North Carolina------------ Episcopalian
George Ross------------ Pennsylvania------------ Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr.------------ South Carolina------------ Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr.------------ South Carolina------------ Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton------------ South Carolina------------ Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge------------ South Carolina------------ Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee------------ Virginia------------ Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee------------ Virginia------------ Episcopalian
George Read------------ Delaware------------ Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney------------ Delaware------------ Episcopalian
Samuel Chase------------ Maryland------------ Episcopalian
William Paca------------ Maryland------------ Episcopalian
Thomas Stone ------------ Maryland------------ Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry------------ Massachusetts------------ Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson ------------ New Jersey------------ Episcopalian
Francis Lewis ------------ New York------------ Episcopalian
Lewis Morris------------ New York------------ Episcopalian
William Hooper----------- North Carolina----------- Episcopalian
Robert Morris----------- Pennsylvania----------- Episcopalian
John Morton----------- Pennsylvania----------- Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins----------- Rhode Island----------- Episcopalian
Carter Braxton----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr.----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian
George Wythe----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson----------- Virginia----------- Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin----------- Pennsylvania----------- Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett----------- Georgia----------- Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson----------- Pennsylvania -----------Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes-----------North Carolina------------ Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer----------- Pennsylvania------------- Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean------------ Delaware----------- Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton-------------- New Hampshire----------- Presbyterian
Abraham Clark------------ New Jersey------------ Presbyterian
John Hart------------- New Jersey------------ Presbyterian
Richard Stockton---------- New Jersey------------- Presbyterian
John Witherspoon------------- New Jersey----------- Presbyterian
William Floyd---------- New York-------------- Presbyterian
Philip Livingston------------ New York------------ Presbyterian
James Smith---------- Pennsylvania---------- Presbyterian
George Taylor---------- Pennsylvania---------- Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush---------- Pennsylvania--------- Presbyterian[/u]
And there's plenty more from which that came. Check the men who signed the Constitution.
The men who signed the Constitution broke down something like this:
Religious Affiliation-----------# of delegates---------% of delegates
Episcopalian/Anglican---------- 31---------- 56.4%
Presbyterian---------- 16 ----------29.1%
Congregationalist---------- 8---------- 14.5%
Quaker ----------3---------- 5.5%
Catholic ----------2 ----------3.6%
Methodist---------- 2--------- 3.6%
Lutheran ----------2---------- 3.6%
Dutch Reformed---------- 2---------- 3.6%
TOTAL 55 100%
You can go to the site on the previous page to get the name-by-name and state-by-state listing.
The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.
This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.
No one is trying to re-write anything. This is merely setting the record straight, refuting such ridiculous claims, like those of Deicide, claiming that this nation was designed to be a secular (read godless) nation. That is simply not the case.
The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.
But, it's been on our coins since 1864, beginning with the 2-cent coins.
The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.
Another Act of Congress passed on March 3, 1865. It allowed the Mint Director, with the Secretary's approval, to place the motto on all gold and silver coins that "shall admit the inscription thereon." Under the Act, the motto was placed on the gold double-eagle coin, the gold eagle coin, and the gold half-eagle coin. It was also placed on the silver dollar coin, the half-dollar coin and the quarter-dollar coin, and on the nickel three-cent coin beginning in 1866. Later, Congress passed the Coinage Act of February 12, 1873. It also said that the Secretary "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto."
The use of IN GOD WE TRUST has not been uninterrupted. The motto disappeared from the five-cent coin in 1883, and did not reappear until production of the Jefferson nickel began in 1938. Since 1938, all United States coins bear the inscription. Later, the motto was found missing from the new design of the double-eagle gold coin and the eagle gold coin shortly after they appeared in 1907. In response to a general demand, Congress ordered it restored, and the Act of May 18, 1908, made it mandatory on all coins upon which it had previously appeared. IN GOD WE TRUST was not mandatory on the one-cent coin and five-cent coin. It could be placed on them by the Secretary or the Mint Director with the Secretary's approval.
The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml (http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml)
Edit: This is the 2nd time on these boards that I have soundly debunked the lie propagated by Christians.
Hopefully, no mods with Christian biases will choose to censor the truth like they did the last time.
You have debunked nothing of the sort. The last time I checked, the Founding Fathers consisted of more than Jefferson, Paine, Washington, and the other men you listed, notwithstanding the fact that I've already posted their statements earlier.
As for the "In God We Trust", that's been part of our nation's history for nearly 200 years. In fact, the phrase is in our national anthem (3rd verse).
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
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Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." 7 He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
Would this be the same Benjamin Franklin who uttered,
History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefullness to the public; the advantage of religious character among private persons, the mischiefs of superstition, etc., and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." - from "The Works of Benjamin Franklin"
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It's odd how all these devout Christians left God and Jesus out of the constitution Article Six even states that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
Also no requirement to swear on the Bible for the President - you'd think at the very least they would make that a requirement.
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Tell that to these men:
Sorry, I don't talk to dead people.... but since you have a tradition of doing so... why don't you ask them yourself?
You could even call Haley Joel Osment. {whispering} He see's dead people. :o
No one is trying to re-write anything. This is merely setting the record straight, refuting such ridiculous claims, like those of Deicide, claiming that this nation was designed to be a secular (read godless) nation. That is simply not the case.
Secular does not mean Godless. It simply means both freedom OF & FROM religion.
Choice, ya know... like it says in the bible.
But, it's been on our coins since 1864, beginning with the 2-cent coins.
The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.
Another Act of Congress passed on March 3, 1865. It allowed the Mint Director, with the Secretary's approval, to place the motto on all gold and silver coins that "shall admit the inscription thereon." Under the Act, the motto was placed on the gold double-eagle coin, the gold eagle coin, and the gold half-eagle coin. It was also placed on the silver dollar coin, the half-dollar coin and the quarter-dollar coin, and on the nickel three-cent coin beginning in 1866. Later, Congress passed the Coinage Act of February 12, 1873. It also said that the Secretary "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto."
The use of IN GOD WE TRUST has not been uninterrupted. The motto disappeared from the five-cent coin in 1883, and did not reappear until production of the Jefferson nickel began in 1938. Since 1938, all United States coins bear the inscription. Later, the motto was found missing from the new design of the double-eagle gold coin and the eagle gold coin shortly after they appeared in 1907. In response to a general demand, Congress ordered it restored, and the Act of May 18, 1908, made it mandatory on all coins upon which it had previously appeared. IN GOD WE TRUST was not mandatory on the one-cent coin and five-cent coin. It could be placed on them by the Secretary or the Mint Director with the Secretary's approval.
The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.[/b][/glow]
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml (http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml)
I make the simple factual statement that: The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria. and you write some long boring diatribe CONFIRMING my statement, putting it forth in an effort to refute the facts? What kind of drugs are you on ???
...or do you simply not understand the definition of the words ALL or 'CONSISTENTLY' ???
You have debunked nothing of the sort. The last time I checked, the Founding Fathers consisted of more than Jefferson, Paine, Washington, and the other men you listed, notwithstanding the fact that I've already posted their statements earlier.
In a previous post in the thread "God Hates Fags", I went through ALL the founding fathers... not just Jefferson, Paine, and Washington, ...but a mod on General found it necessary to quietly delete the post for some unknown reason, although they chose to leave the thread intact.
As for the "In God We Trust", that's been part of our nation's history for nearly 200 years. In fact, the phrase is in our national anthem (3rd verse).
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
You mean the national anthem that didn't even become your national anthem until well into the 20th century?
Despite the fact that your nation was founded in the 18th century? Do you mean that national anthem?
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(http://www.ten-commandments.us/ten_commandments/images/moses_supreme_court.jpg)
Look at this sculpture at the top of the Supreme Court building in Washington DC.
Who is that in the middle, larger than the others, appearing in a dominant position, with special emphasis, holding the two tablets?
That is Moses holding The Ten Commandments, sitting in a dominant position between the two "other lawgivers", Confucius and Solon. :)
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Hope this Helps.
Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, 23 of the 32 sitting Senators were present for the June 7 vote which unanimously approved the ratification recommendation.
Article 11 reads:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Article_11.GIF)
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Samuel Adams
Rights of the Colonists, 1772:
The rights of the colonists as Christians … may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Lawgiver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.…
"Just and true liberty, equal and impartial liberty," in matters spiritual and temporal, is a thing that all men are clearly entitled to by the eternal and immutable laws of God and nature, as well as by the law of nations and all well-grounded municipal laws, which must have their foundation in the former.…
"American Independence" Speech, 1 August 1776:
Our forefathers … opened the Bible to all, and maintained the capacity of every man to judge for himself in religion. Are we sufficient for the comprehension of the sublimest spiritual truths, and unequal to material and temporal ones? We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and with a propitious eye beholds his subjects assuming that freedom of thought and dignity of self-direction which he bestowed on them. From the rising to the setting sun, may his kingdom come!
Letter to John Adams, 4 October 1790:
Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government without which they never can act a wise part in the government of societies, great or small; in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.
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Patrick Henry
A written statement on the back of Henry's Stamp Act Resolves:
This [the Stamp Act] brought on the war which finally separated the two countries and gave independence to ours. Whether this will prove a blessing or a curse, will depend upon the use or people make of the blessings, which a gracious God hath bestowed on us.
If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable.
Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself, and encourage it in others.
Speech of March 23, 1775:
Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of the means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people, armed in the Holy cause of Liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us.
Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations; and who will raise up friends to fight our battle for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave.…
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
Letter to his daughter, Betsy, 20 August 1796:
Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast.
Patrick Henry's Will:
This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed.
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loco=wrong=quote mining schmuck
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loco=wrong=quote mining schmuck
Sure, it's quote mining only when you disagree with the quote. :)
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Sure, it's quote mining only when you disagree with the quote. :)
Nope. It is quote mining when you provide NO Context whatsoever.
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Nope. It is quote mining when you provide NO Context whatsoever.
Unlike some here, I do not spam the boards. People don't bother to read spam.
But I do provide the source. So feel free to go to the source and prove that I'm quoting out of context.
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John Adams
Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1812:
"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion."
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John Adams
Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1812:
"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion."
This has NOTHING to do with the founding of the USA or the USA`s principles.
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Why do you people argue about Religion so much? ???
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Why do you people argue about Religion so much? ???
Because it has been the cause of so many wars, millions and millions of innocent deaths, warped our culture, suppressed Science, Suppressed the rights of others, Hindered Technology, Stymied human advancement and has created justification to do anything in the name of "faith" or "god".
To say nothing and let it go unscathed, is allowing its permittance to do evil as it has done and will continue to do.
Why should we lay silent to these injustices caused by religion?
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This has NOTHING to do with the founding of the USA or the USA`s principles.
Adonis,
Deicide asked "Why do so many people believe that the USA was founded on Christian principles."
I am simply giving reasons why I and why others I know believe this, whether or not you disagree with our reasons.
No reason for you to get angry and resort to insults.
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Because it has been the cause of so many wars, millions and millions of innocent deaths, warped our culture, suppressed Science, Suppressed the rights of others, Hindered Technology, Stymied human advancement and has created justification to do anything in the name of "faith" or "god".
To say nothing and let it go unscathed, is allowing its permittance to do evil as it has done and will continue to do.
Why should we lay silent to these injustices caused by religion?
Nationalism, Communism and other secular ideologies have killed many more people than religion ever did. Atheist leaders have killed many more people than religious leaders ever did.
WWI(1914 - 1918): 19,772,701 casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties#References
WWII(1930s – 1945): 62,000,000 casualties
- World War II: Combatants and Casualties (1937 — 1945). Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- World War II Fatalities. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
Joseph Stalin's Great Purge(1937 -1938): 1,200,000 casualties
- Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments by Historian Michael Ellman, 2002
Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward(1958 - 1960): 43,000,000 casualties
- Peng Xizhe (彭希哲), "Demographic Consequences of the Great Leap Forward in China's Provinces," Population and Development Review 13, no. 4 (1987), 639-70.
Pol Pot's agrarian collectivization (1975 -1979): 1,700,000 casualties
- Sophal Ear (May 1995). The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.In Chapter 1: Introduction
- The Cambodian Genocide Program. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.
These were not committed by ancient, primitive people and they were not inspired by religious beliefs. These were committed by "modern civilized people" inspired by secular ideologies like Nationalism and Communism.
And the cause for the current, global economic crisis has nothing to do with faith in God, but it has a lot to do with greed, dishonesty, and materialism, all of which are condemned by God according to the Bible.
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Adonis,
Deicide asked "Why do so many people believe that the USA was founded on Christian principles."
I am simply giving reasons why I and why others I know believe this, whether or not you disagree with our reasons.
No reason for you to get angry and resort to insults.
Again, John Adams religion or lack of religion is not applicable to the United States being based on any religion. The United States Constitution makes no reference to Christianity whatsoever nor are there any Christian principles contained therein.
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Again, John Adams religion or lack of religion is not applicable to the United States being based on any religion. The United States Constitution makes no reference to Christianity whatsoever nor are there any Christian principles contained therein.
I know that they did not want a theocracy, and for that I am grateful. But if you are going to build from scratch the foundation for a new country, you are going to have to build it on some principles, whatever those maybe. The founding fathers, such as John Adams above, were most familiar with, not Muslim, not Buddhist, not Hindu, but most familiar with Judeo-Christian principles, for example "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount."
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I know that they did not want a theocracy, and for that I am grateful. But if you are going to build from scratch the foundation for a new country, you are going to have to build it on some principles, whatever those maybe. The founding fathers, such as John Adams above, were most familiar with, not Muslim, not Buddhist, not Hindu, but most familiar with Judeo-Christian principles, for example "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount."
Neither of which have anything to do with the Constitution.
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Neither of which have anything to do with the Constitution.
Most likely because the individual state constitutions already had plenty on the subject of God and religion and the framers of the U. S. Constitution, who intended not to give the federal government too much power, believed that it would be inappropriate to step over state jurisdiction in this area.
Some state constitutions in the U.S. still say, even today, that you can't hold office in the state if you do not believe in God.
Miscellaneous Provisions.
1. Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.
Arkansas Constitution - Page 74
http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/Summary/ArkansasConstitution1874.pdf
Isn't that where your beloved Hilary and Bill Clinton are from? :)
And "our Lord" does appear in the U.S. Constitution. ;)
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Most likely because the individual state constitutions already had plenty on the subject of God and religion and the framers of the U. S. Constitution, who intended not to give the federal government too much power, believed that it would be inappropriate to step over state jurisdiction in this area.
Some state constitutions in the U.S. still say, even today, that you can't hold office in the state if you do not believe in God.
Miscellaneous Provisions.
1. Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.
Arkansas Constitution - Page 74
http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/Summary/ArkansasConstitution1874.pdf
Isn't that where your beloved Hilary and Bill Clinton are from? :)
And "our Lord" does appear in the U.S. Constitution. ;)
Right. There is the same provision in North Carolina under their state Constitution.
Both of these are rendered meaningless by Federal Law, the establishment clause.
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The no religious test clause of the United States Constitution is found in Article VI, section 3, and states that:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
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And a little more History for "joker":
In the 1961 case Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled that such language in state constitutions was in violation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. In 1997 the South Carolina Supreme Court ruled that the state constitution requiring an oath to God for employment in the public sector was unconstitutional.
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Right. There is the same provision in North Carolina under their state Constitution.
Both of these are rendered meaningless by Federal Law, the establishment clause.
The no religious test clause of the United States Constitution is found in Article VI, section 3, and states that:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
And a little more History for "joker":
In the 1961 case Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled that such language in state constitutions was in violation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. In 1997 the South Carolina Supreme Court ruled that the state constitution requiring an oath to God for employment in the public sector was unconstitutional.
It has only been interpreted that way fairly recently. No court has ruled on the applicability of Article VI to any state religious test being unconstitutional.
We are talking about the founding of the nation, not amendments to and interpretations of the original law of the land.
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Because it has been the cause of so many wars, millions and millions of innocent deaths, warped our culture, suppressed Science, Suppressed the rights of others, Hindered Technology, Stymied human advancement and has created justification to do anything in the name of "faith" or "god".
To say nothing and let it go unscathed, is allowing its permittance to do evil as it has done and will continue to do.
Why should we lay silent to these injustices caused by religion?
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but you don't think people would find other things to fight about if religion was out of the picture? ???
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I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but you don't think people would find other things to fight about if religion was out of the picture? ???
And if they do and they simply continue the same behavior under another banner such as Nationalism, that too should be challenged. Remaining silent is letting evil prevail.
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Nationalism, Communism and other secular ideologies have killed many more people than religion ever did. Atheist leaders have killed many more people than religious leaders ever did.
No "atheist" leader has ever killed because of atheism. Its equivalent to saying Leaders with mustaches have killed millions, so therefore mustaches must be wrong.
Religious Leaders HAVE KILLED AND STARTED Wars. in the NAME of their religion and make no attempt to hide it.
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I know that they did not want a theocracy, and for that I am grateful. But if you are going to build from scratch the foundation for a new country, you are going to have to build it on some principles, whatever those maybe. The founding fathers, such as John Adams above, were most familiar with, not Muslim, not Buddhist, not Hindu, but most familiar with Judeo-Christian principles, for example "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount."
Do you have good genetics?
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No "atheist" leader has ever killed because of atheism. Its equivalent to saying Leaders with mustaches have killed millions, so therefore mustaches must be wrong.
Religious Leaders HAVE KILLED AND STARTED Wars. in the NAME of their religion and make no attempt to hide it.
Amen.
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Do you have good genetics?
I think I do.
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No "atheist" leader has ever killed because of atheism. Its equivalent to saying Leaders with mustaches have killed millions, so therefore mustaches must be wrong.
Religious Leaders HAVE KILLED AND STARTED Wars. in the NAME of their religion and make no attempt to hide it.
Wrong. Stalin's atheism let him to murder many priests, nuns, and thousands of other religious people. Their crime? They believed in God.
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot had no fear of God and were above the law of the land, which left nothing to stop them from murdering millions in the name of their secular ideologies.
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I think I do.
In terms of muscle growth response? muscle bellies? Structure?
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In terms of muscle growth response? muscle bellies? Structure?
Building muscle mass naturally has never been too hard for me, for my brothers or for my uncles.
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Building muscle mass naturally has never been too hard for me, for my brothers or for my uncles.
You're lucky.
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Wrong. Stalin's atheism let him to murder many priests, nuns, and thousands of other religious people. Their crime? They believed in God.
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot had no fear of God and were above the law of the land, which left nothing to stop them from murdering millions in the name of their secular ideologies.
False.
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Based on what? ::)
They saw the Church as a rival power and influence on their people. They knew that a strong church could disway the masses from following their bs programs, rules and laws.
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Based on what? ::)
They saw the Church as a rival power and influence on their people. They knew that a strong church could disway the masses from following their bs programs, rules and laws.
The actions of totalitarians have far more in common with religious, rather than secular values.
Do not question the leader, submit unthinkingly, ethics are what the authority says they are, or else. There is no external moral benchmark.
These are the catchphrases of totalitarians through the ages. In the religious context the leader is God, the authority is the Bible and the "or else" the Inquisition. In a secular context the leader may be Hitler, the authority "Main Kampf" and the "or else" the Gestapo.
The root problem, is that Dogma and Ideology which must be obeyed without question, lead inevitably to horrors. The precedents, both religious and secular are legion. Religion is merely a subset of the primary concept. The antidote, is genuine free thought, skepticism and critical thinking.
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And if they do and they simply continue the same behavior under another banner such as Nationalism, that too should be challenged. Remaining silent is letting evil prevail.
I think fighting/killing is just human nature. Blaming religion or nationalism in my opinion is just a convenient scapegoat. :-\
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The actions of totalitarians have far more in common with religious, rather than secular values.
Do not question the leader, submit unthinkingly, ethics are what the authority says they are, or else. There is no external moral benchmark.
These are the catchphrases of totalitarians through the ages. In the religious context the leader is God, the authority is the Bible and the "or else" the Inquisition. In a secular context the leader may be Hitler, the authority "Main Kampf" and the "or else" the Gestapo.
The root problem, is that Dogma and Ideology which must be obeyed without question, lead inevitably to horrors. The precedents, both religious and secular are legion. Religion is merely a subset of the primary concept. The antidote, is genuine free thought, skepticism and critical thinking.
Retrospectively, none of these men had good bbing genetics.
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I think fighting/killing is just human nature. Blaming religion or nationalism in my opinion is just a convenient scapegoat. :-\
No. Killing each other is not Evolutionary beneficial in species who are socially grouped and require the dependence and reciprocation of each other. Homo Sapiens have never historically mass murdered because of a genetic predisposition as there is no biological evidence for this, nor does the fossil record support this conclusion. Mass Killings among our species is relatively new and has come about not because of our inherent genetics, but because of our irrational actions and technology to do so.
Although there is emerging evidence that the limbic brain, reptilian brain is expressed moreso in those who operate under fear than those who operate under rationality. However, being a social species, group order and rationality should mitigate the prevalence of the Reptilian brain but does not in all cases. (afterall, we still have a Republican party filled with wingnuts. :) )
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Adolf Hitler was a Catholic by the way and used the Catholic Church, who willingly complied, to help him murder the Jews as well as further the hatred of them.
A little side note: The Current Pope was in the Hitler Jugend. I am sure, or at least I hope he denounces all involvement today, but Adolf and the Catholic church were quite cozy with each other when it came to murdering and imprisoning jews and recruiting "good" Catholics to carry this out.
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Furthermore, can anyone name a Theocracy that has not been overly oppressive, unequal, and dangerous?
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Furthermore, can anyone name a Theocracy that has not been overly oppressive, unequal, and dangerous?
Which dictators do you think had good bbing genetics?
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Also, loco, can you explain to me how you think atheism in itself causes genocide? Atheism is simply not believing in a god or the supernatural and has nothing to do with morality. I do not understand how you made that leap in logic that atheism leads to genocide. Hopefully you can clear this up.
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Wrong. Stalin's atheism let him to murder many priests, nuns, and thousands of other religious people. Their crime? They believed in God.
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot had no fear of God and were above the law of the land, which left nothing to stop them from murdering millions in the name of their secular ideologies.
I don't think it had anything with them believing in God, so much as he wanted people to fear him above all others... God included.
Eliminating them was simply good business in him retaining his power.
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I don't think it had anything with them believing in God, so much as he wanted people to fear him above all others... God included.
Eliminating them was simply good business in him retaining his power.
I agree. Stalin surely would have had a bunch of atheists murdered just as fast, as I am sure he did, if they were seen as a threat to his power. So its not like he had a soft spot for only atheists. He surely would have carted them off to the Gulag as well.I don`t think declaring, "Wait Mr. Stalin, you can`t take me away for opposing you, I am an atheist", would have worked.
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Furthermore, can anyone name a Theocracy that has not been overly oppressive, unequal, and dangerous?
Baha'i
Bahá'ís believe that there is one God, that all humanity is one family, and that there is a fundamental unity underlying religion. They recognize that the coming of Bahá'u'lláh has opened the age for the establishment of world peace, when, as anticipated in the sacred scriptures of the past, all humanity will achieve its spiritual and social maturity, and live as one united family in a just, global society.
http://www.bahai.org/
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Baha'i
Bahá'ís believe that there is one God, that all humanity is one family, and that there is a fundamental unity underlying religion. They recognize that the coming of Bahá'u'lláh has opened the age for the establishment of world peace, when, as anticipated in the sacred scriptures of the past, all humanity will achieve its spiritual and social maturity, and live as one united family in a just, global society.
http://www.bahai.org/
What nation?
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I just read a bit about Baha'i but cannot find it being implemented in a Theocratic manner in any particular nation.
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No. Killing each other is not Evolutionary beneficial in species who are socially grouped and require the dependence and reciprocation of each other. Homo Sapiens have never historically mass murdered because of a genetic predisposition as there is no biological evidence for this, nor does the fossil record support this conclusion. Mass Killings among our species is relatively new and has come about not because of our inherent genetics, but because of our irrational actions and technology to do so.
Although there is emerging evidence that the limbic brain, reptilian brain is expressed moreso in those who operate under fear than those who operate under rationality. However, being a social species, group order and rationality should mitigate the prevalence of the Reptilian brain but does not in all cases. (afterall, we still have a Republican party filled with wingnuts. :) )
Interesting post, I hope you stick around and keep posting on the political board. 8)
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Adolf Hitler was a Catholic by the way and used the Catholic Church, who willingly complied, to help him murder the Jews as well as further the hatred of them.
A little side note: The Current Pope was in the Hitler Jugend. I am sure, or at least I hope he denounces all involvement today, but Adolf and the Catholic church were quite cozy with each other when it came to murdering and imprisoning jews and recruiting "good" Catholics to carry this out.
This is irrelevant.
Whether Adolf Hitler was a Catholic or simply used Catholicism to get his way is the question.
And even if Hitler was a Catholic, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were atheists and they killed many more innocent people than Hitler did.
And even if Hitler was a Catholic, killing Jews for him had nothing to do with religion. He killed Jews whether they were religious or not. He would have killed Jews even if they had converted to Catholicism.
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Also, loco, can you explain to me how you think atheism in itself causes genocide? Atheism is simply not believing in a god or the supernatural and has nothing to do with morality. I do not understand how you made that leap in logic that atheism leads to genocide. Hopefully you can clear this up.
I never said that atheism in itself leads to genocide. You just said that. I would never say that.
I said that it was Stalin's atheism that let him to murder thousands of innocent priests, nuns and many other religious people. Their only crime was their theism.
A Muslim leader today might kill non-Muslims if they do not submit to Islam. The Roman Catholic Church killed people hundreds of years ago because they would not submit to the Roman Catholic Church. Stalin was an atheist and of the million plus innocent people he killed, thousands of those were killed simply because they were not atheists. Had they been atheists, they would not have been murdered by Stalin.
"Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in the near-extinction of the Russian Orthodox Church: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.
Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed."
Alexander N. Yakovlev (2002). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. pp. 165.
http://books.google.com/books?visbn=0300103220&id=ChRk43tVxTwC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&ots=ICIxg28Jud&dq=a+century+of+violence+in+soviet+russia+the+Russian+Orthodox+clergy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=C9k9Hr7Vn222WCHf_1iSJOHVsgo (http://books.google.com/books?visbn=0300103220&id=ChRk43tVxTwC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&ots=ICIxg28Jud&dq=a+century+of+violence+in+soviet+russia+the+Russian+Orthodox+clergy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=C9k9Hr7Vn222WCHf_1iSJOHVsgo)
Richard Pipes (2001). Communism: A History. Modern Library Chronicles. pp. 66.
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By the way Adonis, Christianity by itself never let to genocide, murder or torture. Christianity directly and indirectly has rather let to non-violent resistance against oppression. And I'm talking about Jesus, his apostles, and his many early followers.
I am talking about Gandhi, whose non-violent resistance of the British empire was greatly influenced by Leo Tolstoy, a Russian Christian, and by Jesus.
I am talking about Martin Luther King, whose non-violent resistance was greatly influenced by Jesus and by Gandhi.
I am talking about the people of Chile, who influenced by Jesus, Gandhi and Martin Luther King, through non-violent resistance overthrew the tyrant Pinochet.