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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Mons Venus on May 16, 2009, 10:14:23 AM
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Is HRT is considered juicing if only used to bring a guy back to the normal physiological range?
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Insofar as it could make you sterile, yes. You sure HRT is the answer?
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Insofar as it could make you sterile, yes. You sure HRT is the answer?
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Great response! ::)
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It's a serious answer. I thought you were asking because you had low test. HRT is not a one size fits all treatment for hypogonadism.
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Is HRT is considered juicing if only used to bring a guy back to the normal physiological range?
can you continue to claim to be a natural bodybuilder? no
btw, anything over 100 mg/week is not HRT
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can you continue to claim to be a natural bodybuilder? no
btw, anything over 100 mg/week is not HRT
200 mg/wk is the "standard" dose most docs that specialize in HRT start with.
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Actually 200mg/wk will take most people out of the normal range. 90-150mg/wk is typical for medically supervised HRT but it all depends on sx and bloodwork results.
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Actually 200mg/wk will take most people out of the normal range. 90-150mg/wk is typical for medically supervised HRT but it all depends on sx and bloodwork results.
If you deal w a GP or an endo, they're always gonna be conservative. "Anti aging" docs are fine giving 200.
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Some are, some aren't, it depends on what they see with bloodwork. Anti-aging practices have changed a lot in the past 5-6 yrs. I know, with medical certainty, that 200 can be used but its less common because we often see the test going too high (particularly the free testosterone) or erythrocytosis over time. Remember, this is long term treatment...for years, so its important to stay in the mid-upper normal ranges.
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If you deal w a GP or an endo, they're always gonna be conservative. "Anti aging" docs are fine giving 200.
"anti aging" docs are just trying to skirt around the 1990 law that makes it illegal for doctors to prescribe anabolic steroids for cosmetic or performance enhancing purposes.
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"anti aging" docs are just trying to skirt around the 1990 law that makes it illegal for doctors to prescribe anabolic steroids for cosmetic or performance enhancing purposes.
Duh, but isn't that the point? The anti-steroid laws were passed to prevent athletic cheating and teens juicing, not to prevent older people from improving their appearance. Thus the loopholes are permitted.
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Duh, but isn't that the point? The anti-steroid laws were passed to prevent athletic cheating and teens juicing, not to prevent older people from improving their appearance. Thus the loopholes are permitted.
older people meaning anyone over 21?
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older people meaning anyone over 21?
Over 35. Most of those docs won't prescribe test to anyone younger.
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Yes.....Test levels don't mean shit. If you have to take exogenous test it is not natural.
Brutal rationalization attempt for justification of drug use. If you want to take test just fuggin take it. I love the people who say it's HRT or "Medicine." ::)
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If you deal w a GP or an endo, they're always gonna be conservative. "Anti aging" docs are fine giving 200.
250 even! :D
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Is HRT is considered juicing if only used to bring a guy back to the normal physiological range?
Of course it is!
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I think HRT is an American Phenomenom
I'd never heared of it until I started posting on here.
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I think HRT is an American Phenomenom
I'd never heared of it until I started posting on here.
It's all the rage with 30 and 40 somethings. A lot of women use it after menopause. I used it in Aus for a short time... the male version, that is.
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How much does it typically cost?
Is it just a low dose of test every week?
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How much does it typically cost?
Is it just a low dose of test every week?
About Aus$12 (Organon, Schering) for a 250mg ampule + doctor's fees, if I remember right. I can't understand why people look to underground sources for testosterone without even trying to see a doctor.
As far as true hrt goes, testosterone is over prescribed imo. Most guy's nuts aren't dead. There's other inhibiting factors that should be addressed instead of just hitting the hrt right away.
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Brutal rationalization attempt for justification of drug use. If you want to take test just fuggin take it. I love the people who say it's HRT or "Medicine." ::)
The rationalization is necesary due to America's bullshit drug laws. "HRT" is prescribed by a doctor, and therefore legal, and you know exactly what you're getting since you're buying from a licensed pharmacy. Buying "steroids" from a gym dealer is illegal (meaning you could get busted for possessing it), and you have no fuccking clue what you're actually injecting.
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The rationalization is necesary due to America's bullshit drug laws. "HRT" is prescribed by a doctor, and therefore legal, and you know exactly what you're getting since you're buying from a licensed pharmacy. Buying "steroids" from a gym dealer is illegal (meaning you could get busted for possessing it), and you have no fuccking clue what you're actually injecting.
This right here. I don't know how guys can do it.
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The rationalization is necesary due to America's bullshit drug laws. "HRT" is prescribed by a doctor, and therefore legal, and you know exactly what you're getting since you're buying from a licensed pharmacy. Buying "steroids" from a gym dealer is illegal (meaning you could get busted for possessing it), and you have no fuccking clue what you're actually injecting.
I just laugh at the folks who say they are taking their medicine, or this is what they would normally look like but their test levels are low. If that is how they were supposed to look they would have been born that way.
I'm in no way against steroids, I've used the hell out of them (and probably have a cycle or twenty left in me), but these clowns make me laugh with their justifications. If you take steroids, you're juicing. You can call it HRT or what have you, but you're still juicing.
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The rationalization is necesary due to America's bullshit drug laws. "HRT" is prescribed by a doctor, and therefore legal, and you know exactly what you're getting since you're buying from a licensed pharmacy. Buying "steroids" from a gym dealer is illegal (meaning you could get busted for possessing it), and you have no fuccking clue what you're actually injecting.
From what I understand a lot of the hormones put together in compounding pharmacies, prescribed by anti-aging clinics, has been the same Chinese shit the UG steroid labs were buying. Same with the generic growth hormone.
If you're buying brand name American drugs then it's another matter.
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Yes.....Test levels don't mean shit. If you have to take exogenous test it is not natural.
Brutal rationalization attempt for justification of drug use. If you want to take test just fuggin take it. I love the people who say it's HRT or "Medicine." ::)
If you're only replacing lost T back to physiologic norm, I do not consider it juicing.
How many competitive bodybuilders use AndroGel as their ONLY anabolic source ?
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The norm is the average but if your test is lower doesn't mean that your levels are wrong or dangerous. There's no studies that show that low test levels are diminishing life expectancy or otherwise unhealthy, it's actually the other way around. so there's no medical justification for HRT unless your test is reaaaaaallly low.
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so there's no medical justification for HRT unless your test is reaaaaaallly low.
It's not necessarily wrong to treat subjective symptoms though. Like in menopause women can get estrogen to treat symptoms like hot flashes even though estrogen may increase the chance of certain cancers etc. Menopausal women can even get testosterone to treat low libido. There's no evidence test will increase life expectancy in women. It's used to increase quality of life.
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The norm is the average but if your test is lower doesn't mean that your levels are wrong or dangerous. There's no studies that show that low test levels are diminishing life expectancy or otherwise unhealthy, it's actually the other way around. so there's no medical justification for HRT unless your test is reaaaaaallly low.
Hypothetical: 50-60 yo man with T levels near 250 with low energy and difficulty performing. Is he considered a "juicer" for using a product similar to Androgel to increase his quality of life?
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If you're only replacing lost T back to physiologic norm, I do not consider it juicing.
How many competitive bodybuilders use AndroGel as their ONLY anabolic source ?
I don't know about competitive pro's but my Cheap ass ex-roommate uses the ole Androgel pump and he's 237lbs. He's all about it cause "his insurance pays for his juice."
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I don't know about competitive pro's but my Cheap ass ex-roommate uses the ole Androgel pump and he's 237lbs. He's all about it cause "his insurance pays for his juice."
I imagine he baths in it. :o
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Hypothetical: 50-60 yo man with T levels near 250 with low energy and difficulty performing. Is he considered a "juicer" for using a product similar to Androgel to increase his quality of life?
not in my book, HRT has its uses. But you'll find that a man with such low T levels most likely does not need his test levels upped to the norm.
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I think HRT is an American Phenomenom
I'd never heared of it until I started posting on here.
true, here in France most people i know are afraid to take multivitamin, "is it drugs, do you need a prescription ?"
protein powder are considered as amphetamine.
it looks unbelievable but it's true.
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Some of you guys are just wrong and need to update your thinking.
There are studies equating higher incidence of cardiac mortality, diabetes and depression for individuals with the lowest 20% of testosterone of the normal range (or lower). There was also a study linking low test (again lowest 20%) to greater overall mortality. Harvard scientists and many reputable urologists now back HRT, there have been a lot of recent publications. A lot of the though changed when we saw an increase in heart disease and heart attacks after giving patients (with prostate cancer) pituitary inhibitors which lowered testosterone. Testosterone is necessary for the heart. There has been some psychiatric literature about the mood enhancing effects of low dose testosterone as well and some good results with depressed patients with low test. You guys are looking at it from the BBing perspective. Most anti-aging docs treat guys 40 and over with documented hormone deficiencies. Yes, there are still some bad docs out there but not like it was 10 yrs ago.
Free testosterone drops at a rate of approx 1.5% per year after age 35, it is certainly variable but there are a lot of guys in their 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond who get amazing benefits (and minimal, if any side effects) when their testosterone levels are increased (inside the normal range).
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Samourai, my impression is that when testosterone is too low or too high, over a long period of time, there can be problems. However, low testosterone does not predict increased life expectancy. It is the reverse actually. I have not seen a study equating high test levels to increased mortality but we can extrapolate from individuals who use hugh quantities where they experience high estrogen, high blood pressure, eventually an enlarged heart and decrease in HDLs (your protective cholesterol).
When you look at it from the perspective of an aging but still active, athletic male, it makes more sense. Guys that are over 40 still trying to be as good as they can physically have the right to obtain benefit from hormone replacement if they have low hormones and it makes them feel and function better with minimal to no risks.
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Some of you guys are just wrong and need to update your thinking.
There are studies equating higher incidence of cardiac mortality, diabetes and depression for individuals with the lowest 20% of testosterone of the normal range (or lower). There was also a study linking low test (again lowest 20%) to greater overall mortality. Harvard scientists and many reputable urologists now back HRT, there have been a lot of recent publications. A lot of the though changed when we saw an increase in heart disease and heart attacks after giving patients (with prostate cancer) pituitary inhibitors which lowered testosterone. Testosterone is necessary for the heart. There has been some psychiatric literature about the mood enhancing effects of low dose testosterone as well and some good results with depressed patients with low test. You guys are looking at it from the BBing perspective. Most anti-aging docs treat guys 40 and over with documented hormone deficiencies. Yes, there are still some bad docs out there but not like it was 10 yrs ago.
Free testosterone drops at a rate of approx 1.5% per year after age 35, it is certainly variable but there are a lot of guys in their 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond who get amazing benefits (and minimal, if any side effects) when their testosterone levels are increased (inside the normal range).
Great post. Thanks 4 an intelligent response. :)
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Just located this info on Androgel. 5 mg per day absorbtion using the 5 gram packet.
So 5mg of T per day considered juicing? ::)
In terms of bodybuilding, Androgel is not going to offer a whole lot. The highest dosed packet delivers only 5mg of testosterone to the body per day, which is not really that much when you are trying to pack on serious muscle mass. Were a person planning on getting a supraphysiological dose of testosterone with this drug, even say 25mg daily, it would require the regular daily use of 5 packets of the 5gram product. Try to use Androgel as a replacement for say testosterone cypionate or enanthate, as the sole drug in a cycle, and you would probably need even more. Combine this with the fact that injectable testosterone is just so much easier and cheaper to use, and we can see why Androgel doesn't circulate on the black market very often.
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can you continue to claim to be a natural bodybuilder? no
btw, anything over 100 mg/week is not HRT
A 5g daily packet provides 5mg of T per day. 5X7= 35mg of T per week.
WOW! ::)
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HRT is great. I only do 200mg cym a week perscribed, and I haven't lost
and ounce of size "except for my injury". I truley believe that if I did a year
of hRT, I could get, but hold my gains from someone doing a cycle for 12 weeks
of 750mgs of testosterone. And not doing more. even without pct. I think pct
is a total lie, and is bullshit unless you are getting gyno. Pct speeds nothing up
as far as test levels
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A 5g daily packet provides 5mg of T per day. 5X7= 35mg of T per week.
WOW! ::)
Probably 4 packets a day. That's why androgel has a pump.
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I think pct is a total lie, and is bullshit unless you are getting gyno. Pct speeds nothing up
as far as test levels
What's PCT got to do with you if you are on constant test?
While PCT protocols aren't that well established, with tons of data, of course the usual PCT drugs will increase test levels and bring them up quicker after a cycle. Take HCG and the balls swell up within a day etc. The long term data is what's lacking since most get bloodwork done while still on the PCT drugs or when they just got off them. Will the test plummet gain?
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A 5g daily packet provides 5mg of T per day. 5X7= 35mg of T per week.
WOW! ::)
Put the gel on your nutsack and you can get up to 60% penetration vs. 10% elsewhere on the body. :D
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Probably 4 packets a day. That's why androgel has a pump.
Taken as prescribed for HRT= ONE packet per day = 35mgs of T per week.
Is 35mgs/week considered heavy juicing?
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Put the gel on your nutsack and you can get up to 60% penetration vs. 10% elsewhere on the body. :D
Info says DO NOT APPLY TO NUTSACK. Just shoulders and abs.
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I imagine he baths in it. :o
No, but he does shave the tops of his feet to make the skin thinner for absorbtion purposes. Oily skin and bloated face, but no real acne to speak of. He lifts some heavy ass weight and he's very consistent. Because the insurance pays for it, he never goes off.
Before going on the androgel, he wasn't some skinny pussy, he just had low test levels from using long acting esters like sustanon.
I have to give it to him, it's a good scam.
Taken as prescribed for HRT= ONE packet per day = 35mgs of T per week.
Is 35mgs/week considered heavy juicing?
His doctor has him prescribed at 5 packets a day, the pharmacy gives him 40 packets a week or the pump. 35 x5 165mg / week = juicing.
Also that is what they say is abosorbed, maybe less maybe more.
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No, but he does shave the tops of his feet to make the skin thinner for absorbtion purposes. Oily skin and bloated face, but no real acne to speak of. He lifts some heavy ass weight and he's very consistent. Because the insurance pays for it, he never goes off.
Before going on the androgel, he wasn't some skinny pussy, he just had low test levels from using long acting esters like sustanon.
I have to give it to him, it's a good scam.
His doctor has him prescribed at 5 packets a day, the pharmacy gives him 40 packets a week or the pump. 35 x5 165mg / week = juicing.
Also that is what they say is abosorbed, maybe less maybe more.
At those levels (5 packs) I agree, that is juicing.
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Info says DO NOT APPLY TO NUTSACK. Just shoulders and abs.
Yes I know. :D Probably because of concern over increased DHT conversion or whatever. It is more effective though, not that I would do it or seriously recommend it.
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All HRT is juicing, it's just a way to legally do and say fuck the system.
When you throw HGH and deca into the mix..... you legally "stack."
Godbless the HRT doctors.
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Yes I know. :D Probably because of concern over increased DHT conversion or whatever. It is more effective though, not that I would do it or seriously recommend it.
Who cares about DHT? Ever hear of Proscar?
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Who cares about DHT? Ever hear of Proscar?
The problem with Proscar is it lowers both DHT and T levels.
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Who cares about DHT? Ever hear of Proscar?
I would never take Proscar.
The problem with Proscar is it lowers both DHT and T levels.
Not that you would worry about lower T on HRT.
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The problem with Proscar is it lowers both DHT and T levels.
If you're loading tons of exogenous test, why is this a problem?
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I would never take Proscar.
why?
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If you're loading tons of exogenous test, why is this a problem?
More importantly Proscar lowers "free test"
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why?
I've read about a lot of scary potential side effects from the stuff. Yeah I know all drugs have sides but DHT seems like a very important hormone, not something to suppress. Important for libido, mood etc etc. Some claim they have experienced permanent problems from it.
This doc thinks finasteride is the devil. He has written on a lot of bb forums.
http://www.allthingsmale.com/index.htm
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not in my book, HRT has its uses. But you'll find that a man with such low T levels most likely does not need his test levels upped to the norm.
::) ::)buddy wait till your test drops to 250 or below and see how yu feel and come back and see if you have the same attitude when your energy is plumented and yur getting brain fog etc,etc..very important to have yur test in normal ranges
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I've read about a lot of scary potential side effects from the stuff. Yeah I know all drugs have sides but DHT seems like a very important hormone, not something to suppress. Important for libido, mood etc etc. Some claim they have experienced permanent problems from it.
This doc thinks finasteride is the devil. He has written on a lot of bb forums.
http://www.allthingsmale.com/index.htm
PROSCAR
The most widely used of these is finasteride, sold under the brand name of Proscar. It has been shown to be moderately successful in reducing prostate size in some men and in addressing some of the urinary symptoms associated with BPH. However, it can take as long as six months before it shows results, and the drug has negative side-effects including a direct link to a substantial increase in prostate cancer risk. In fact, men who take this drug have their prostate cancer risk increased 300% according to a 1999 clinical study conducted by the prestigious Norris Cancer Institute of the University of Southern California (USC). Read this study here and ask your doctor if he knows about it. USC Study Links Proscar to Prostate Cancer Among other side effects, it has the potential to decrease libido, cause premature ejaculation and impotence
There are even more alarming aspects to this drug, both for men and for women. It can cause birth defects in pregnant women who come in contact with the drug or possibly even with the sperm of a man who has taken Proscar. It can also artificially lower a man's PSA levels by as much as 60 percent. This is very important to note, because it can interfere with the results of a PSA test in detecting prostate cancer. In many men, Proscar may not be effective at all. Proscar is designed to shrink greatly expanded glandular tissue of the prostate. However, not all BPH problems come from expansion of glandular tissue. Some men have prostate glands that are normal in size, but because the smooth-muscle tissue in their prostates has begun to contract around the urethra, they too suffer from painful BPH symptoms.