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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on May 28, 2009, 08:09:34 PM
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Absolutely ridiculous.
Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit
Thursday, May 28, 2009
Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a Bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.
"On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the Bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News.
"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a Bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said.
A few days later, the couple received a written warning that cited "unlawful use of land," ordering them to either "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit," the couple's attorney Dean Broyles told San Diego news station 10News.
But the major use permit could cost the Jones' thousands of dollars just to have a few friends over.
For David and Mary Jones, it's about more than a question of money.
"The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion," Broyles told FOX News. "I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple Bible study in their own home."
"The implications are great because it’s not only us that’s involved," Mary Jones said. "There are thousands and thousands of Bible studies that are held all across the country. What we’re interested in is setting a precedent here — before it goes any further — and that we have it settled for the future."
The couple is planning to dispute the county's order this week.
If San Diego County refuses to allow the pastor and his wife to continue gathering without acquiring a permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html
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Unfuckingbelievable...
>:(
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retarded.
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permit ??? You have got to be fucking kidding me... Some of the craziest shit has been coming out of that place, what are they doing, trying to beat out San Fran for WTFs?
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sounds crazy... but...
we never heard how many "friends" assemble every day for bible study.
If you get 500 people together every morning for an organized religious assembly, then yeah, get a permit if the law requires it. Or work to change the law.
That's the only way I can see this being an issue. They got busted on Good Friday... so if they had 1200 people show up for a church service/"meeting", yeah, just get a permit and stop whining.
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Could it be that this is not perceived as just "an individual" having friends over,
...but rather "a pastor" who they believe to be holding church services perhaps? ???
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sounds crazy... but...
we never heard how many "friends" assemble every day for bible study.
If you get 500 people together every morning for an organized religious assembly, then yeah, get a permit if the law requires it. Or work to change the law.
That's the only way I can see this being an issue. They got busted on Good Friday... so if they had 1200 people show up for a church service/"meeting", yeah, just get a permit and stop whining.
EXACTLY!!!
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i doubt they could have that many people over at one time.
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sounds crazy... but...
we never heard how many "friends" assemble every day for bible study.
If you get 500 people together every morning for an organized religious assembly, then yeah, get a permit if the law requires it. Or work to change the law.
That's the only way I can see this being an issue. They got busted on Good Friday... so if they had 1200 people show up for a church service/"meeting", yeah, just get a permit and stop whining.
15
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people have parties all the time with 15 people, they don't get shut down unless there is a noise problem. and yea, there's that guy in every neighborhood that has a party every Friday or Saturday. The only thing shutting them down is noise, underage or charging for alcohol. They don't go up to the homeowner and ask if someone there worships the porcelain once a week lol... Like they asked him in that video I posted.
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people have parties all the time with 15 people, they don't get shut down unless there is a noise problem. and yea, there's that guy in every neighborhood that has a party every Friday or Saturday. The only thing shutting them down is noise, underage or charging for alcohol. They don't go up to the homeowner and ask if someone there worships the porcelain once a week lol... Like they asked him in that video I posted.
any info about whether they were raising money/collecting donations, etc..?
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any info about whether they were raising money/collecting donations, etc..?
I can't find any info on that and I don't think it's one of the accusations. Also worth noting is that the complaint was made by someone who doesn't even live on the circle. Everyone on the circle is fine with it.
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yeah, if it's 15 it's probably not a big deal.
Still, playing devil's advocate...
if my next door neighbor held a meeting where there were 15 cars parked on my street every morning for 4 hours (prayer + meal + etc), I'd have a problem with it. I don't care if it's a Ron paul club meeting or an NRA meeting. Because the minute it's okay, then the other 20 houses on my street can leagally do it too. Suddenly there are 300 cars on my block every day.
See what I mean? I could care less what people do in their house... but 15 guests = 15 cars = a big deal if everybody does it.
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bible study is usually once a week and all his neighbors are fine with it. Some dude that doesn't even live there made the complaint. And we've all seen the guy that has parties every week and fills the street with cars. There's always one of them somewhere. They don't have to pay the city to have their parties.
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I bet it's not even 15 cars. Some probably show up together.
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true... i'm just playing devil's advocate.
If you allow organized assemblies for 1 house, you gotta allow it for everyone.
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true... i'm just playing devil's advocate.
If you allow organized assemblies for 1 house, you gotta allow it for everyone.
It should be allowed for everyone. The chances that everyone on one street up and does it at the same time is astronomical. The chances are probably rare that multiple meetings happen on one street at the same time. And the practice is already there across the country in small and big towns and cities. This guy didn't set a new trend. The only thing new here is a city seeking to shut down/extort one of these countless bible studies held across the country.
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WTF, I'm defending Christians :-\ lol...
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That's the biggest load of poop I've ever heard EVER.
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WTF, I'm defending Christians :-\ lol...
lol. :) You don't have to look at it that way. You're defending the First Amendment.
We do some dumb things in our society, but this one takes the cake. You're right about people car pooling. Having participated in numerous Bible studies, I can tell you that multiple people come in cars all the time. I doubt there were 15 cars. Even if there were, if the neighbors don't care then so what?
Regarding some of the other comments, no you could never fit 1200 people in someone's house. lol. . . . And no, you never take "donations" at a Bible study. It's nothing more than a group of people sitting around "talking story" (as we say here).
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I could not believe this when I read about this yesterday. How is this even legal?
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Absolutely ridiculous.
Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit
Thursday, May 28, 2009
Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a Bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.
"On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the Bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News.
"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a Bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said.
A few days later, the couple received a written warning that cited "unlawful use of land," ordering them to either "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit," the couple's attorney Dean Broyles told San Diego news station 10News.
But the major use permit could cost the Jones' thousands of dollars just to have a few friends over.
For David and Mary Jones, it's about more than a question of money.
"The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion," Broyles told FOX News. "I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple Bible study in their own home."
"The implications are great because it’s not only us that’s involved," Mary Jones said. "There are thousands and thousands of Bible studies that are held all across the country. What we’re interested in is setting a precedent here — before it goes any further — and that we have it settled for the future."
The couple is planning to dispute the county's order this week.
If San Diego County refuses to allow the pastor and his wife to continue gathering without acquiring a permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html
Most religious people are delusional idiots but they should be allowed to practise all the delusion and idiocy they feel like. Freedom of Stupidity I say.
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lol. :) You don't have to look at it that way. You're defending the First Amendment.
We do some dumb things in our society, but this one takes the cake. You're right about people car pooling. Having participated in numerous Bible studies, I can tell you that multiple people come in cars all the time. I doubt there were 15 cars. Even if there were, if the neighbors don't care then so what?
Regarding some of the other comments, no you could never fit 1200 people in someone's house. lol. . . . And no, you never take "donations" at a Bible study. It's nothing more than a group of people sitting around "talking story" (as we say here).
this doesn't hurt thigns on an individual scale.
however, on a macro schedule, if veryone on the block decided to do the same thing, it would be a major problem.
Plus, even if it was only 5 or 10 cars... that's some trashy shit to have to look at every friday morning, you know? I don't want 15 people parking on my street every week, waking me up with their awkward driving (as you know church goers tend to be some shitty drivers at times, hence the term 'Sunday drivers').
I don't want 15 people parking next door and in front of my house. Do you?
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Most religious people are delusional idiots but they should be allowed to practise all the delusion and idiocy they feel like. Freedom of Stupidity I say.
A freedom which you exercise on a regular basis.
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A freedom which you exercise on a regular basis.
Hardly. Most educated, intelligent people are NOT religious fundamentalists.
And here I thought you would be happy I am sticking up for you...how sad. :-\
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Hardly. Most educated, intelligent people are NOT religious fundamentalists.
And here I thought you would be happy I am sticking up for you...how sad. :-\
You can be educated and still exercise great stupidity. Refer to yourself as exhibit "A".
Or to use a verse from Scripture, "Thinking themselves wise, they became fools".
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You can be educated and still exercise great stupidity. Refer to yourself as exhibit "A".
Or to use a verse from Scripture, "Thinking themselves wise, they became fools".
I prefer to go by Socrates; I only know how little I know BUT that said we know that the Bible is NOT the product of divinity...
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this doesn't hurt thigns on an individual scale.
however, on a macro schedule, if veryone on the block decided to do the same thing, it would be a major problem.
Plus, even if it was only 5 or 10 cars... that's some trashy shit to have to look at every friday morning, you know? I don't want 15 people parking on my street every week, waking me up with their awkward driving (as you know church goers tend to be some shitty drivers at times, hence the term 'Sunday drivers').
I don't want 15 people parking next door and in front of my house. Do you?
I dont want some fucking barking dog waking me up either,or looking out my window and see some filthy dog taking a crap on my lawn even when the neighbor cleans up after it.I also dont like seeing kids bikes strewn all over the place or people that mow their lawn every two weeks instead of every week.If its a public street ,who cares what you dont like?As long as they arent blocking YOUR driveway,its none of your god dam buisiness how many people are there.
This will NEVER stand up in court.NEVER!!
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As long as they arent blocking YOUR driveway,its none of your god dam buisiness how many people are there.
Really.
Somehow I doubt you'd be cool with an Obama 2012 club parking 40 cars on your block - even if they didn't block your driveway - every week for 4 hours.
And many the house on the other side of you could host a "Team Amnesty" meeting at the same time, where they get 100 of their friends together to plan how to get that darn amnesty bill passed.
yes, that will be 100 cars on your block, lined up the yards on both sides of the street and maybe a few cars in the yard. that'll be crowds of idiots smoking and chatting on cells outside your bedroom window. You won't mind tho, huh? ;)
Look, ya gotta nip the 15-member crowds in the bud, because if you set the precedent that it's acceptable, you'll have the ACLU setting up 150-member crowds and saying it's acceptable, as you allowed 15 people.
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Really.
Somehow I doubt you'd be cool with an Obama 2012 club parking 40 cars on your block - even if they didn't block your driveway - every week for 4 hours.
And many the house on the other side of you could host a "Team Amnesty" meeting at the same time, where they get 100 of their friends together to plan how to get that darn amnesty bill passed.
yes, that will be 100 cars on your block, lined up the yards on both sides of the street and maybe a few cars in the yard. that'll be crowds of idiots smoking and chatting on cells outside your bedroom window. You won't mind tho, huh? ;)
Look, ya gotta nip the 15-member crowds in the bud, because if you set the precedent that it's acceptable, you'll have the ACLU setting up 150-member crowds and saying it's acceptable, as you allowed 15 people.
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
15 people? I had almost twice as many people at my house for my daughter's 1st birthday party. This was just plain stupid and (unless it goes before the 9th Circuit Court) will get shot down easily.
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GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
15 people? I had almost twice as many people at my house for my daughter's 1st birthday party. This was just plain stupid and (unless it goes before the 9th Circuit Court) will get shot down easily.
I agree.
Many people host bible studies or other events at their house this isn't an isolated event by any means.
Does this mean every canvasing meeting or bake sale preparation etc. will need to get a permit?
If that is the case then why would Obama campaign for more volunteerism because this works directly against it.
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Really.
Somehow I doubt you'd be cool with an Obama 2012 club parking 40 cars on your block - even if they didn't block your driveway - every week for 4 hours.
And many the house on the other side of you could host a "Team Amnesty" meeting at the same time, where they get 100 of their friends together to plan how to get that darn amnesty bill passed.
yes, that will be 100 cars on your block, lined up the yards on both sides of the street and maybe a few cars in the yard. that'll be crowds of idiots smoking and chatting on cells outside your bedroom window. You won't mind tho, huh? ;)
Look, ya gotta nip the 15-member crowds in the bud, because if you set the precedent that it's acceptable, you'll have the ACLU setting up 150-member crowds and saying it's acceptable, as you allowed 15 people.
Now we have gone from 15 cars to 40.Incredible.However,for 4 hours on a Friday morning?Ummm,I work on Fridays,what the fuck would I care about whats going on if Im not there?So lets see,I wake up at 3 am,train,do two hours of cardio,then cook my food for the day,eat,take a shower and get dressed and go to work.Put in ten twelve hours.Sorry,I just dont see how some cars in the street would make ANY differance in my life.I wouldnt care if it was a group trying to get reperations.I DONT CARE!!!!
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I could not believe this when I read about this yesterday. How is this even legal?
Not only is it unconstitutional, it's just plain stupid.
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this doesn't hurt thigns on an individual scale.
however, on a macro schedule, if veryone on the block decided to do the same thing, it would be a major problem.
Plus, even if it was only 5 or 10 cars... that's some trashy shit to have to look at every friday morning, you know? I don't want 15 people parking on my street every week, waking me up with their awkward driving (as you know church goers tend to be some shitty drivers at times, hence the term 'Sunday drivers').
I don't want 15 people parking next door and in front of my house. Do you?
I have cars parked near my house all the time. One of my neighbors has a number of people over on a regular basis. It's not a problem. It happens in this state on a regular basis (large social gatherings).
There is nothing awkward or "trashy" about a few cars parked near anyone's house. The neighbors haven't complained. This is about some paranoid anti-religious extremist trying to censor religious expression. This is quite possibly the dumbest story I've read this year. (Next to the flag story I'm about to post.) The City's actions are indefensible. Someone needs to step up and put a stop to this before they become a national embarrasment.
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Not only is it unconstitutional, it's just plain stupid.
The Vietnam War and Irar War were unconstitutional as well, nice to see that you only care when it is about your religion.
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The Vietnam War and Irar War were unconstitutional as well, nice to see that you only care when it is about your religion.
Speaking of paranoid anti-religious extremists . . . .
Listen Troll, Vietnam and Iraq have nothing to do with the idiotic decision by the City of San Diego to call a gathering of 15 people in a private residence a "religious assembly."
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The Vietnam War and Irar War were unconstitutional as well, nice to see that you only care when it is about your religion.
Jesus loves you D. :)
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this doesn't hurt thigns on an individual scale.
however, on a macro schedule, if veryone on the block decided to do the same thing, it would be a major problem.
Plus, even if it was only 5 or 10 cars... that's some trashy shit to have to look at every friday morning, you know? I don't want 15 people parking on my street every week, waking me up with their awkward driving (as you know church goers tend to be some shitty drivers at times, hence the term 'Sunday drivers').
I don't want 15 people parking next door and in front of my house. Do you?
answer me this then since I've said it several times. What about the people who have parties? There's probably more parties across the country than bible studies. What about the guy who likes to have parties? The only reason he can't do that now is if the party gets out of hand, underage issue or profit motive.
Plus according to what they're nailing this guy on, it wouldn't matter if every last person WALKED to his house, NO CARS! The complaint from a non resident started it, but with what they're saying, he can't hold these bible studies even if people walk there!
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Really.
Somehow I doubt you'd be cool with an Obama 2012 club parking 40 cars on your block - even if they didn't block your driveway - every week for 4 hours.
And many the house on the other side of you could host a "Team Amnesty" meeting at the same time, where they get 100 of their friends together to plan how to get that darn amnesty bill passed.
yes, that will be 100 cars on your block, lined up the yards on both sides of the street and maybe a few cars in the yard. that'll be crowds of idiots smoking and chatting on cells outside your bedroom window. You won't mind tho, huh? ;)
Look, ya gotta nip the 15-member crowds in the bud, because if you set the precedent that it's acceptable, you'll have the ACLU setting up 150-member crowds and saying it's acceptable, as you allowed 15 people.
where on earth are you getting these notions 240... I've lived in a lot of places and the parking on the street has always been open unless otherwise posted. Meaning anyone could park there. I may not have liked the fact that the guy across the street has so many cars he parked in front of my house but I couldn't do anything about it unless he blocked the driveway.
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Jesus loves you D. :)
I watched some lame show last night where this lady said to another, "Have you found Jesus" and she was like, "I didn't know he was lost" and started laughing lol
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Don't know if this is entirely accurate, but here is some more to the story:
A neighbor complained about the Bible study after his car was dented. He thought it was dented by one of the people at the Bible study. The people who attended the study disputed denting the car, but still chipped in money to pay the neighbor to fix the damage.
Since then, all of the cars are parked on the pastor's property and not on the street. They then got a visit from a county rep who indicated that in order to have a "religious assembly" they need to obtain a major use permit (which can cost tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars). If not, they would incur fines: first $100.00, then $200.00, then $500.00, then $1,000.00, and then possible court action.
So now we're not even talking about cars on the street. It's all occurring on private property.
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This pisses me off. What the hell is going on in our country?
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Don't know if this is entirely accurate, but here is some more to the story:
A neighbor complained about the Bible study after his car was dented. He thought it was dented by one of the people at the Bible study. The people who attended the study disputed denting the car, but still chipped in money to pay the neighbor to fix the damage.
Since then, all of the cars are parked on the pastor's property and not on the street. They then got a visit from a county rep who indicated that in order to have a "religious assembly" they need to obtain a major use permit (which can cost tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars). If not, they would incur fines: first $100.00, then $200.00, then $500.00, then $1,000.00, and then possible court action.
So now we're not even talking about cars on the street. It's all occurring on private property.
The video news report that I posted I think said it was a visitor to a neighbor that complained after the disput with the dent. And correct, the issue isn't even parking for the county. Like I said, people could all walk there, all 15 of them ::) and the county would still be doing this lol...
Also, isn't that county mostly republican? I think they were in the past, not sure what happened in the last elections.
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The video news report that I posted I think said it was a visitor to a neighbor that complained after the disput with the dent. And correct, the issue isn't even parking for the county. Like I said, people could all walk there, all 15 of them ::) and the county would still be doing this lol...
Also, isn't that county mostly republican? I think they were in the past, not sure what happened in the last elections.
I think San Diego is pretty conservative, but we're talking about government workers.
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So now we're not even talking about cars on the street. It's all occurring on private property.
So let me get this straight.
Every single person here would be "A-okay" if your next door neighbor held a meeting every week for 4 hours - and during that time, there were FIFTEEN cars parked in his front yard?
look, that's some seriously trashy shit. AFTER someone hit a car then drove off quietly - a total dick move - they're going to make things better by just parking in the grass?
I think we all like to hate on 'the man' for shitting on our freedoms, but if my neighbor's guests messed up my car and drove off - and then started parking a dozen cars on the grass - I'd have a problem with it. Would you let your kid play in the front yard when there were 15 cars parked a few feet away? Your dog? You already know at least one of these folks at the meeting is a hit-and-run criminal... If one of them clips your dog, will he drive off as well? I mean, he didn't care about $1000 damage to your ride, I"m sure he'll give a shit about your beloved Rover....
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So let me get this straight.
Every single person here would be "A-okay" if your next door neighbor held a meeting every week for 4 hours - and during that time, there were FIFTEEN cars parked in his front yard?
look, that's some seriously trashy shit. AFTER someone hit a car then drove off quietly - a total dick move - they're going to make things better by just parking in the grass?
I think we all like to hate on 'the man' for shitting on our freedoms, but if my neighbor's guests messed up my car and drove off - and then started parking a dozen cars on the grass - I'd have a problem with it. Would you let your kid play in the front yard when there were 15 cars parked a few feet away? Your dog? You already know at least one of these folks at the meeting is a hit-and-run criminal... If one of them clips your dog, will he drive off as well? I mean, he didn't care about $1000 damage to your ride, I"m sure he'll give a shit about your beloved Rover....
Oh stop with the dumb hypotheticals. Like Hugo said more than once, the cars are not the issue. They would be harassed by the city even if everyone walked. This is about whether a group of people meeting in a private residence constitutes a "religious assembly." The government worker who started and escalated this matter should really be fired.
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Oh stop with the dumb hypotheticals. Like Hugo said more than once, the cars are not the issue. They would be harassed by the city even if everyone walked. This is about whether a group of people meeting in a private residence constitutes a "religious assembly." The government worker who started and escalated this matter should really be fired.
BB,
Your new cars gets all dented up, and the 15 pricks meeting next door don't have the balls to own up and knock on your door and inform you?
You have to wake up, walk outside, see your car all dented - no note- because the "religious" man who sideswiped you just kept right on driving?
BS. You'd be pissed too. You'd want those 15 idiots - whether they're worshipping, playing dungeons and dragons, or working for greenpeace - to just meet some place else.
This is a govt technicality being selectively enforced because the people having the meeting fcked up somebody's car and didn't man up and admit it. The hit-and-run driver is an A-hole, and he screwed up their little meeting spot by damaging someone's car and zooming off. If he had followed the law, and called police or knocked on door, they'd still have their club meeetings.
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BB,
Your new cars gets all dented up, and the 15 pricks meeting next door don't have the balls to own up and knock on your door and inform you?
You have to wake up, walk outside, see your car all dented - no note- because the "religious" man who sideswiped you just kept right on driving?
BS. You'd be pissed too. You'd want those 15 idiots - whether they're worshipping, playing dungeons and dragons, or working for greenpeace - to just meet some place else.
This is a govt technicality being selectively enforced because the people having the meeting fcked up somebody's car and didn't man up and admit it. The hit-and-run driver is an A-hole, and he screwed up their little meeting spot by damaging someone's car and zooming off. If he had followed the law, and called police or knocked on door, they'd still have their club meeetings.
Another dumb hypoethical. We're not talking about 15 cars. ::) The people attending the Bible study were not "pricks" or "idiots." ::) They denied causing the damage, but still paid for it. If you're going to continue with the absurd scenarios, at least get your facts straight.
But again, cars are not the issue. You don't seem to understand that. This is a First Amendment issue. That is all. And goodnight.
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Another dumb hypoethical. We're not talking about 15 cars. ::) The people attending the Bible study were not "pricks" or "idiots." ::) They denied causing the damage, but still paid for it. If you're going to continue with the absurd scenarios, at least get your facts straight.
But again, cars are not the issue. You don't seem to understand that. This is a First Amendment issue. That is all. And goodnight.
Yes. If you mess up someone's car and drive off, you're a prick/idiot.
Of course this is a first amendment issue, and of course they're only being targeted/enforced because the neighbor is making a big stink about it.
But if they hadn't messed up his car then drove off like CRIMINALS, they'd still be meeting every week.
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They came to their senses. Good.
County won't force permit on Bible study leaders
Code officer formally warned couple over meetings at home
By Helen Gao, Union-Tribune Staff Writer, Janine Zúńiga, Union-Tribune Staff Writer
2:00 a.m. May 30, 2009
David Jones, a pastor in National City, holds Bible study groups in his Bonita home. (Peggy Peattie / Union-Tribune) -
San Diego County's April 14 code-enfocement warning against the Joneses' Bible study for a religious assembly lacking a permit
May 26 letter from the Joneses' lawyer, Dean Broyles, to the county
County Administrative Officer Walt Ekard's May 29 statement saying "the Bible studies will continue"
Tuesday letter from Dean Broyles, attorney for David and Mary Jones: “The Citation specifically orders the homeowner to 'cease/stop religious assembly' as opposed to all other types of assembly, such as holding secular (non-religious) meetings, parties or events.
Therefore, pursuant to well-established legal precedent, the Order is not neutral because it specifically targets only religious meetings.”
Statement yesterday from Walt Ekard, chief administrative officer for San Diego County: “Let me be clear: religious intolerance in any form is not, and never will be, allowed under any circumstance in San Diego County government. I deeply regret that a routine code enforcement issue has transformed into a debate over religious freedom in San Diego County.”
Sweeping issues of religious freedom and governmental regulation are swirling around Pastor David Jones' house in rural Bonita, attracting attention from as far away as China and New Zealand.
He says it all started with $220 in car damage.
Jones and his wife, Mary, hold a weekly Bible study at their home that sometimes attracts more than 20 people, with occasional parking issues. Once, a car belonging to a neighbor's visitor got dinged.
David Jones paid for the damage, but he thinks the incident spurred a complaint to the county.
A code enforcement officer warned the couple in April for holding a “religious assembly” without a permit. The action became an international incident when it was reported last week on the Web site worldnetdaily.com.
The Joneses assert that the county's action violates their rights under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion. Their story was picked up by conservative Web sites for days, then made it to CNN yesterday.
Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.
“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.
Chandra Wallar, the county's general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don't need a permit after all.
Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.”
Wallar said that definition, which doesn't spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.
She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.
“We've advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he's held them,” Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.”
Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.
In an interview yesterday, the pastor said at most, there are six additional cars on Bible study day. Jones, pastor of South Bay Community Church in National City, said he has visitors park in a lot that he owns beside his house.
“We're in trouble if they are going to go with a parking issue, because that means that thousands of people in Bible study groups could be cited for a parking violation,” Jones said.
“What about people who gather to play Texas Hold 'Em, Mommy and Me, 'Monday Night Football,' Boy Scouts, Alcoholics Anonymous? Everyone has a right as a homeowner to the quiet enjoyment of their property. They're trying to take that away. We're not going to let it go.”
Constitutional law scholars say that the county can impose land-use restrictions on religious gatherings, as long as they are not unreasonable or discriminatory.
“If people can get together weekly to read books or discuss books or play bridge, if those are OK, there would be a constitutional issue involved in singling out, among other things, religion as a forbidden thing,” said Larry Alexander, constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.
Dean Broyles, president of the Western Center for Law & Policy, a nonprofit organization in Escondido that supports religious liberty, is representing the Joneses. He said traffic issues were not raised when the code enforcement officer first visited the Joneses in response to the complaint. The warning itself does not mention traffic or parking problems.
“Even though the county is saying it's about traffic and parking, it's a fake issue. It's a fabricated issue,” Broyles said.
According to Broyles, the code enforcement officer asked a series of pointed questions during her visit with the Joneses – questions such as, “Do you sing?” “Do you say 'amen?' ” “Do you say 'praise the Lord?' ”
Wallar said the county is investigating what questions were asked and in what context. She said a code enforcement officer does have to ask questions about how a place is being used to determine what land-use codes are applicable.
“Our county simply does not tolerate our employee straying outside what the appropriate questions are,” Wallar said.
Ekard, the top county executive, emphasized in his statement that he would get to the bottom of the matter.
“Should I find that county staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately,” he said.
As of late yesterday, county Supervisor Greg Cox's office – which represents the area – reported having received 400 e-mail messages about the Joneses'situation. Wallar said her department has received hundreds of e-mails and phone calls as well.
Broyles said he's been fielding media calls nonstop.
“It's been hard to do anything else but to handle the phone calls and media interviews,” he said. “It's been crazy, back to back to back to back.”
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/
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Chuck Norris laying the smack down. :)
Got your permit to study the Bible?
Recently, a California pastor and his wife were required by San Diego County officials to obtain a permit to hold a Bible study in their home.
"What?! Is this a joke?" I wondered as I heard the news for the first time. It was no joke. Rather it's a First Amendment nightmare and possibly a precedent of what's to come.
Are you prepared for a future in which you might someday hear the question, "Got your permit to study the Bible?"
On April 10 (Good Friday), a county code enforcement officer visited the home of David and Mary Jones after receiving a complaint about their Christian gatherings. The Jones' attorney Dean Broyles, president of The Western Center for Law & Policy, conveyed in disbelief, "The county asked [Mrs. Jones], 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"
The officer then warned the family to "cease and desist" the "religious assemblies" or they would face fines up to $1,000 weekly (or more). Two days later, the county delivered a citation claiming that the Joneses were guilty of "unlawful use of land," mandating them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit."
At first I thought, "They must have a large congregation meeting in their home to warrant this type of citation and prompt this type of commotion," right? Actually, according to their lawyer, the Joneses have been hosting weekly Bible studies in their home for about five years ago with an average attendance of only about 15 people.
Attorney Broyles appropriately responded, "If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?"
Well, over this past weekend, barraged by hundreds of complaints after WorldNetDaily broke the news to the international community, San Diego county officials informed the world that they've backed down from requiring the Joneses to obtain a permit. Despite their retraction (based solely upon public pressure, I might add), however, I am appalled how far the county's enforcement and encroachment crossed the constitutional line and became a flagrant disregard for Americans' right to exercise their religious freedom. And I'm concerned that we will see far more of these overreaching governmental actions in years to come.
As Mary Jones shared with FOX News, "The implications are great because it's not only us that's involved. There are thousands and thousands of Bible studies that are held all across the country. What we're interested in is setting a precedent here – before it goes any further – and that we have it settled for the future."
I'm not expecting county officials to be constitutional lawyers, but they should be aware of these basic precepts of America's makeup. For example, prior to the San Diego officials recanting their position regarding the Joneses' Bible study, Chandra Wallar, the county's general manager of land use and environment, declared that "The Bible studies are one that's probably in a very gray area."
"Very gray area"? Is there anything "very gray" about the First Amendment??
I agree again with Dean Broyles, who explained further to FOX News, "The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion. I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their graves if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple Bible study in their own home."
One of the geniuses of America's Founding Fathers was to provide and secure a foundation for our freedom of religious belief. The First Amendment simply reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Could it be any clearer that government will not "prohibit the free exercise thereof"?
We've butchered and bastardized the First Amendment until it doesn't resemble what our founders intended. Even when Thomas Jefferson penned that legendary commentary on "a wall of separation between Church and State," in his letter to the Danbury Baptists (1802), he was only concerned with prohibiting the domination and legislation of religious sectarianism in government, as it was back in England and even in some early colonies like Virginia. However, he was not trying to rid government or civic settings of religious influence and practice. (That's a timely reminder, especially when so many graduation ceremonies across the land are even now being banned from religious discussion and invocations by student participants.)
In 1789, during the same time when the First Amendment was written, then-President George Washington signed into law the Northwest Ordinance, which states, "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."
From Miss California Carrie Prejean (who also lives in San Diego) and her fight for freedom of speech, to this pastor and his wife and their fight for free exercise of religion, America's First Amendment rights are progressively being trampled and even flushed down the cultural toilet. Will California really lead the way in obliterating such basic human rights?
Now more than ever, we need to be like the Joneses! Fight for the First Amendment and your freedom to exercise your religion.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=99738