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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Tapeworm on May 30, 2009, 10:59:53 PM
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A warrior-poet and philosopher king, or a war mongering gloryhound?
(http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0806/PattonImage2.jpg)
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Theif.....
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Theif.....
An American Icon. ;D
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Who cares?
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Who cares?
Men. Manly men.
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He would have been a getbigger if he had been born later.
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Ty Cobb was Patton's hero.
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He would have been a getbigger if he had been born later.
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great avatar stud
who is that`?
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Ty Cobb was Patton's hero.
Really? Do you know why? I would have guessed Alexander, Julius Caesar, or Napoleon.
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Really? Do you know why? I would have guessed Alexander, Julius Caesar, or Napoleon.
He thought Ty Cobb was the model American. Bold, aggressive, wanted to win at all cost. Excelled at everything except raising his kids, lol.
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He thought Ty Cobb was the model American. Bold, aggressive, wanted to win at all cost. Excelled at everything except raising his kids, lol.
I guess I can see that. Do you know in what context Patton praised Cobb? Despite Patton's rep for having a big mouth, a lot of his time seems to have been spent strengthening his position by saying the right thing whether he believed it or not. I'm listening to the early chapters of War As I Knew It and some of his post invasion diplomatic dealings with the Sultan of Morocco, and the Moroccan and French command show him to be quite a cunning politician.
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I guess I can see that. Do you know in what context Patton praised Cobb? Despite Patton's rep for having a big mouth, a lot of his time seems to have been spent strengthening his position by saying the right thing whether he believed it or not. I'm listening to the early chapters of War As I Knew It and some of his post invasion diplomatic dealings with the Sultan of Morocco, and the Moroccan and French command show him to be quite a cunning politician.
Mainly his work ethics and his willingness to take risks for financial gains.
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WWII buff?
Wasn't there some controversy about the N Africa campaign?
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WWII buff?
Wasn't there some controversy about the N Africa campaign?
I find military history interesting, particularly the individuals who fused political ability with battlefield talent, and the evolving nature of history's empires, what changes and what stays the same.
Are you referring to the slapping incidents? I think that was in Sicily. That he got in trouble and relieved of command was very much a sign of modern times. In an earlier world, Patton might have become one of history's empire builders, for better or worse.
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I find military history interesting, particularly the individuals who fused political ability with battlefield talent, and the evolving nature of history's empires, what changes and what stays the same.
Are you referring to the slapping incidents? I think that was in Sicily. That he got in trouble and relieved of command was very much a sign of modern times. In an earlier world, Patton might have become one of history's empire builders, for better or worse.
He was considered a bold tank commander a kind of American Guderian. But to be honest he faced an already bleeding wermacht. Building empires. Nahha. You need political vision. He didn't have any.
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He was considered a bold tank commander a kind of American Guderian. But to be honest he faced an already bleeding wermacht. Building empires. Nahha. You need political vision. He didn't have any.
He was kept on the leash by modern institutions - bureaucracy and multinational alliance. Even modern patriotism put the brakes on him in the sense that modern soldiers fight for their nation, not their commander. King, prime minister, president, etc, the nation is now seen as distinct from them. If he had been operating in a capacity like that of a Roman consul, nothing would have stopped him from turning on the Russians like he wanted to, and the second half of the 20th century would have been very different.
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And he's big on cardio. 45 mins of 'running in place.' ::)
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WWII buff?
Wasn't there some controversy about the N Africa campaign?
:P
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He would have been a getbigger if he had been born later.
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great avatar stud
who is that`?
The ever lovely Mercedes Khani!
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A warrior-poet and philosopher king, or a war mongering gloryhound?
That's not Patton. This is Patton. >:(
/apparently, he had a high pitched voice :-\
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Great genetics for military leadership as well as fighting Nazis.
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Great genetics for military leadership as well as fighting Nazis.
Competed in the 1912 Olympics as well.
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One the other spectrum you have Douglas MacArthur who also had great genetics for military leadership as well as for fighting Japs.
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My dad knew a guy that worked under patton in ww2
he said patton was a serious crazy person that enjoyed killing.
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My dad knew a guy that worked under patton in ww2
said he was a serious crazy person that enjoyed killing.
"Killing is our business, and business is GOOD!"
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He was kept on the leash by modern institutions - bureaucracy and multinational alliance. Even modern patriotism put the brakes on him in the sense that modern soldiers fight for their nation, not their commander. King, prime minister, president, etc, the nation is now seen as distinct from them. If he had been operating in a capacity like that of a Roman consul, nothing would have stopped him from turning on the Russians like he wanted to, and the second half of the 20th century would have been very different.
Yeah, we'dve lost. if he talked the allies into attacking the Russians then the Red Army would've conquered mainland Europe. Maybe they'd switch sides and instead of wanting to join the Far East campaign on our side joined on the axis side and help Japan out.(big if, depends on how deep the russo/japan scars ran at the time.)
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Patton was truly a man among men.
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A warrior-poet and philosopher king, or a war mongering gloryhound?
(http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0806/PattonImage2.jpg)
This looks like NASSER after loses the Mr O ;D
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Yeah, we'dve lost.
You sure? In '45 we had nukes, the Ruskies didn't. Plus I'd wager our industrial capacity was significantly greater, and was pretty well protected from attack (there was an ocean between us and the fighting, and we had a large navy, the russians didn't).
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You sure? In '45 we had nukes, the Ruskies didn't. Plus I'd wager our industrial capacity was significantly greater, and was pretty well protected from attack (there was an ocean between us and the fighting, and we had a large navy, the russians didn't).
Agreed.
The Russians were just about at the end of the rope concerning manpower and industrial capacity. The West also had heavy long-range strategic bombers as well. Either way it would have bee very interesting to see how it would have played out.
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Agreed.
The Russians were just about at the end of the rope concerning manpower and industrial capacity. The West also had heavy long-range strategic bombers as well. Either way it would have bee very interesting to see how it would have played out.
You could make an argument that, for a few short years after WW2, American's military dominance in relation to the rest of the world was at an all time high.
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You could make an argument that, for a few short years after WW2, American's military dominance in relation to the rest of the world was at an all time high.
And lets face it, the USSR was absolutely smashed from all those years of war. Think about it, 20 million dead, ravaged farm land and decimated industry from 2 scorched earth policies...one from the Russians while retreating East and one from the Germans while retreating West. Plus if there was a conflict that would mean no Lend-Lease, no truck, no equipment etc.
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The US should have held onto Japan and West Germany as 'colonia' type establishments just as the Romans did with certain lands.
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We could have taken over the whole damn world. And in retrospect, maybe we should have.
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And lets face it, the USSR was absolutely smashed from all those years of war. Think about it, 20 million dead, ravaged farm land and decimated industry from 2 scorched earth policies...one from the Russians while retreating East and one from the Germans while retreating West. Plus if there was a conflict that would mean no Lend-Lease, no truck, no equipment etc.
There was definitely a window of opportunity. Why Patton wasn't allowed to exploit it, why an army in a position of advantage was ordered to simply pack up and head home is complicated. The crux of the issue for me is: Can the people of a nation be trusted to make the right decisions for themselves?
It seems like Patton didn't believe in true victory, a final objective, or the end of war. There is only further conquest. If he had his way he probably never would have stopped. On the other hand, it's not like there hasn't been another war since WWII.
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You sure? In '45 we had nukes, the Ruskies didn't. Plus I'd wager our industrial capacity was significantly greater, and was pretty well protected from attack (there was an ocean between us and the fighting, and we had a large navy, the russians didn't).
In 45 did the U.S have the capacity to deliver them onto any Russian City and how many nukes did you have?, what was the range of your bombers? Would a Nuclear attack have stopped the Reds, in that Stalin is responsible for the deaths of an obcene number of his own countrymen? I don't think our industrial capacity was any greater than the Russians, places like 'tankograd' was churning tanks out at a stupid rate. lets not forget they encircled the entire German army in Russia wiped it out then went on to capture Berlin.
Obviously I'dve been happy for the allies to win if it came to that but you can't dimiss the strength of the Russians in the later stages of the war.
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My dad knew a guy that worked under patton in ww2
he said patton was a serious crazy person that enjoyed killing.
Was he the one Patton slapped for having shellshock?
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Patton knew how to get shit done, you want men like him on your side during war.
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In 45 did the U.S have the capacity to deliver them onto any Russian City and how many nukes did you have?, what was the range of your bombers? Would a Nuclear attack have stopped the Reds, in that Stalin is responsible for the deaths of an obcene number of his own countrymen? I don't think our industrial capacity was any greater than the Russians, places like 'tankograd' was churning tanks out at a stupid rate. lets not forget they encircled the entire German army in Russia wiped it out then went on to capture Berlin.
Obviously I'dve been happy for the allies to win if it came to that but you can't dimiss the strength of the Russians in the later stages of the war.
oh brother... the Russians had little to no airforce left... the US would have had total air superiority... the US fought Germany and Japan at the same time... the Red Army would have stood little chance if Patton & Co. would have marched towards Moscow.
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both - he never had a problem sending thousands to their death
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oh brother... the Russians had little to no airforce left... the US would have had total air superiority... the US fought Germany and Japan at the same time... the Red Army would have stood little chance if Patton & Co. would have marched towards Moscow.
complete bollox
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oh brother... the Russians had little to no airforce left... the US would have had total air superiority... the US fought Germany and Japan at the same time... the Red Army would have stood little chance if Patton & Co. would have marched towards Moscow.
No.... the allies fought Germany & Japan Oh brother.... do you actually learn that you weren't the only ones fighting in WWII? Arrayed against the Japanese was Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand, India, China, + All the far east countries that Japan had annexed. also the Russians wanted to joni the the war against the Japanese.
If Patton & co would've marched towards Moscow exactly the same would've happened to us as what happened to the Axis forces.
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complete bollox
the war in the east was a ground war... neither side had any significant number of aircraft.. get your facts straight... Soviet Air power was a joke compared to US air power.
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No.... the allies fought Germany & Japan Oh brother.... do you actually learn that you weren't the only ones fighting in WWII? Arrayed against the Japanese was Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand, India, China, + All the far east countries that Japan had annexed. also the Russians wanted to joni the the war against the Japanese.
If Patton & co would've marched towards Moscow exactly the same would've happened to us as what happened to the Axis forces.
and what did those allies amount to.. nothing without US help. US kept everyone in business including the Reds. US aircraft would have blown the entire Red Army and their tanks to bits and pieces.
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With Patton leading the United States they could have taken down the Russians with a couple tanks, a few baseball bats and plenty of Schlitz beer.
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and what did those allies amount to.. nothing without US help. US kept everyone in business including the Reds. US aircraft would have blown the entire Red Army and their tanks to bits and pieces.
And what would all the US help amount to if it wasn't for the Red army advancing across half their own country, most of Europe and capturing Berlin....Fuck all. And what a stupid statement about the USAAF blowing the entire Red Army to pieces. US aircraft carried out the stategic bombing on German cities, it was the RAF that provided Close Air support that would've attack tank formations.
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Theif.....
Asswipe. The original GSP was a master of history, war, tactics, poetry, and has an amazing life's story.
He was an amazing person in all respects and got a raw deal from the fag media.
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Competed in the 1912 Olympics as well.
The only reason he got 5th in the pentathalon was because in the pistol shooting they could not figure if he missed the target or put two bullets through the same hole since the grouping was so small. He was also a great fencer, horseback rider, and was a real man.
as far as I am concerned - he is the true and real GSP!
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Lets remember that Soviet Forces were very dependent on U.S. aide as well. Money, food, supplies, trucks, parts the list goes on. If we were to come to blows at the end of WWII that aide would have been cut immediately.
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With the exception of GX and 333386, a lot of you need to study the facts of history a little more.
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With the exception of GX and 333386, a lot of you need to study the facts of history a little more.
Many also dont know that Patton's lineage goes back to the revolutionary war and almost every generation had men who fought.
Also, Patton got noticed originally before WW1 when he went to Mexico and killed two of Santa Anna's men and tied them up on the hood of a car and delivered them to Pershing.
Patton also was shot in the leg (or butt) during WW1 and actually saw Macarthur running forward under fire.
Most people dont realize also that Patton originally failed out of west point the first year, attended VMI for a year, and then went to West Point.
I have read every book available on the man.
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For those who fantasize about the US 'wiping out' the russians post-May 1945:
1. The US was just about broke by that time.
2. Public sentiment was turning against further war after 400,000 dead
3. Consider supply lines. Consider that Germany was a lot closer to Moscow than the US was, and still failed.
4. Patton died in soon after VE day in 1945.
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For those who fantasize about the US 'wiping out' the russians post-May 1945:
1. The US was just about broke by that time.
2. Public sentiment was turning against further war after 400,000 dead
3. Consider supply lines. Consider that Germany was a lot closer to Moscow than the US was, and still failed.
4. Patton died in soon after VE day in 1945.
That point right there would but a big crimp in anyones plans to have Patton smash the Russians.
This topic makes for some fucking awesome arguments but the fact is that both our nations and the world, quite simply, had enough of war. Although I do wish that we heeded Churchill's call for the Allies to take Berlin. That right there would have completely altered the Cold War landscape. But maybe that would have prodded the Russians into actually going through with an invasion of Germany later down the line.
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A warrior-poet and philosopher king, or a war mongering gloryhound?
D. all the above
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Who would have never made LTC never mind 4 stars in todays army. I worship the guy but he never would have made it.
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Why.
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Because he's not a career "yes" man and doesn't give a rats ass about "PC"
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OzmO, you're like the George Patton of NorCal.
Will you lead our secession from the south?
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OzmO, you're like the George Patton of NorCal.
Will you lead our secession from the south?
I accept. ;D
La La land must go!
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Some big points from War As I Knew It:
- Patton seemed like an excellent wartime diplomat & politician, although very far removed from the fighting troops. His dealings with the Moroccans showed an excellent ability to walk the diplomatic tightrope. How he handled the Vichy French in Morocco was equally impressive, turning yesterday's enemy into today's ally.
- He didn't seem to bear any grudge against Bradley or Eisenhower, and his dislike of Montgomery was based on what he saw as Monty's incompetence.
- He would routinely discount protests from subordinates and insist that they press forward, in keeping with his theory of 'hold 'em by the nose & kick 'em in the ass' (this refers to a flanking tactic), although he felt that infantry lose effectiveness after 60 hours of continuous attack. :o He frequently mentioned that aggressive attack would save American lives in the long run.
- He seemed so far removed from the average soldiers that the highlights he provides of his direct interaction with them stick out conspicuously. However, when discussing the error of micromanagement, two points struck me as right on:
1. Don't tell men how to do things. Just tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
2. It isn't up to an army's commander (referring to 3rd Army) to decide how to beat the enemy, but rather where to beat him.
- In letters home to his wife, you'd think he was writing to a fellow general most of the time. Although there was some humor, and some mention of non military matters, there was never a hint of 'I love you' or 'I miss you.' They are good records of his thoughts at the time, but are pretty cold considering the intended audience.
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Because he's not a career "yes" man and doesn't give a rats ass about "PC"
Its beyond that..Patton might have done ok if he came in after 911. If he grew up in either the post vietnam army or PC clinton Army, never in a million years. Hey George U need to pitch a "consideration of others class"...forget that tank maintenance class.
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Some big points from War As I Knew It:
- Patton seemed like an excellent wartime diplomat & politician, although very far removed from the fighting troops. His dealings with the Moroccans showed an excellent ability to walk the diplomatic tightrope. How he handled the Vichy French in Morocco was equally impressive, turning yesterday's enemy into today's ally.
- He didn't seem to bear any grudge against Bradley or Eisenhower, and his dislike of Montgomery was based on what he saw as Monty's incompetence.
- He would routinely discount protests from subordinates and insist that they press forward, in keeping with his theory of 'hold 'em by the nose & kick 'em in the ass' (this refers to a flanking tactic), although he felt that infantry lose effectiveness after 60 hours of continuous attack. :o He frequently mentioned that aggressive attack would save American lives in the long run.
- He seemed so far removed from the average soldiers that the highlights he provides of his direct interaction with them stick out conspicuously. However, when discussing the error of micromanagement, two points struck me as right on:
1. Don't tell men how to do things. Just tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
2. It isn't up to an army's commander (referring to 3rd Army) to decide how to beat the enemy, but rather where to beat him.
- In letters home to his wife, you'd think he was writing to a fellow general most of the time. Although there was some humor, and some mention of non military matters, there was never a hint of 'I love you' or 'I miss you.' They are good records of his thoughts at the time, but are pretty cold considering the intended audience.
The greatest General ever!!!
He captured 81,000 sq. miles of territory (size of France)
He captured over 1,250,000 prisoners (nearly 5 armies) while his army was only about 250,000
He killed or wounded over 500,000 Germans
These are the greatest accomplishments in military history!!
His men feared him more than the Germans and he knew with this mentality they would kill for him until the end (and they did).
Even Hitler and his Axis thought of him as America's greatest weapon. It's kinda funny how much respect he got from the enemies and his own allies (Eisnhower, Bradley, and the like didn't give him the respect as the enemies did).
We should have listened to him and went after the Russians because he knew they had no air strike and they were weak when the war ended. This would have saved us so many head aches in the future.
Case in point: If there was no Patton we would be worshiping Hitler and speaking German right now.
He was the King of all kings you sonofabitches!!!!!
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The only military print I have in my house.
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The only military print I have in my house.
One of the stories in his letters related how he ordered the steps to his trailer to be refaced in wood because the expanded metal treadplate kept catching and breaking Willie the Dog's toenails. ;D
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Did he work for Blackwater too?
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Forget about Patton, we need this guy: