Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Decker on August 05, 2009, 07:29:06 AM
-
According to "the private society" concept, endorsed by libertarians and self-described "conservatives," the pursuit of each individual for personal gain (principally in "free markets") results in optimal social conditions for all. These desirable consequences, the regressive right would have us believe, occur spontaneously without purposeful human design, and are maintained with no need for government regulation, by what Adam Smith calls "an invisible hand." Thus the legitimate role of government is minimal. "Society" is an aggregate of isolated, "utility maximizing" individuals. There is no "public interest" over and above private interests.
In contrast, the progressive view of "the well-ordered society" insists that in numerous significant and easily identifiable instances, the endeavor of each for advantage can be detrimental to the community – good for each, bad for all; and conversely, that constraints upon each individual can result in advantages to the community in general – bad for each, good for all." It is the function of social institutions, both inside and outside of government, to optimize the "the common good" through mutually agreed upon constraints on each individual.
… The free-market absolutism plus libertarian anarchism proclaimed here by the right wing and accepted with scant criticism by the corporate media, is regarded abroad as somewhat insane. Unfortunately for us all, most Americans are immersed in this insanity.
Why, then, is regressivism dominant in our society, despite its obvious shortcomings?
The answer is, by now, familiar: regressivism is a "master morality" -- an ethos devised and promulgated by, and operating to the advantage of, the wealthy and powerful. Regressivism, with its precepts of "trickle down," "the sin of poverty," taxation as "theft," the unqualified superiority of privatism over government, is essentially an elaborate justification of greed and an institutionalization of privilege. As John Kenneth Galbraith once observed, "the modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
http://gadfly.igc.org/progressive/good-each.htm
________________________ ________________
I think the moral and ethical critiques of libertarianism are sufficient to kill it...or at least expose it for the sham that it is.
This excerpt is fully supported by the author with multiple examples, arguments and demonstrations...just follow the link.
-
According to "the private society" concept, endorsed by libertarians and self-described "conservatives," the pursuit of each individual for personal gain (principally in "free markets") results in optimal social conditions for all. These desirable consequences, the regressive right would have us believe, occur spontaneously without purposeful human design, and are maintained with no need for government regulation, by what Adam Smith calls "an invisible hand." Thus the legitimate role of government is minimal. "Society" is an aggregate of isolated, "utility maximizing" individuals. There is no "public interest" over and above private interests.
In contrast, the progressive view of "the well-ordered society" insists that in numerous significant and easily identifiable instances, the endeavor of each for advantage can be detrimental to the community – good for each, bad for all; and conversely, that constraints upon each individual can result in advantages to the community in general – bad for each, good for all." It is the function of social institutions, both inside and outside of government, to optimize the "the common good" through mutually agreed upon constraints on each individual.
… The free-market absolutism plus libertarian anarchism proclaimed here by the right wing and accepted with scant criticism by the corporate media, is regarded abroad as somewhat insane. Unfortunately for us all, most Americans are immersed in this insanity.
Why, then, is regressivism dominant in our society, despite its obvious shortcomings?
The answer is, by now, familiar: regressivism is a "master morality" -- an ethos devised and promulgated by, and operating to the advantage of, the wealthy and powerful. Regressivism, with its precepts of "trickle down," "the sin of poverty," taxation as "theft," the unqualified superiority of privatism over government, is essentially an elaborate justification of greed and an institutionalization of privilege. As John Kenneth Galbraith once observed, "the modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
http://gadfly.igc.org/progressive/good-each.htm
________________________ ________________
I think the moral and ethical critiques of libertarianism are sufficient to kill it...or at least expose it for the sham that it is.
This excerpt is fully supported by the author with multiple examples, arguments and demonstrations...just follow the link.
Right because the ultimate good is letting the govt run your life and finances???
no thanks Decker.
-
Right because the ultimate good is letting the govt run your life and finances???
no thanks Decker.
when you are a dullard like Decker, maybe that is true....
-
Right because the ultimate good is letting the govt run your life and finances???
no thanks Decker.
You simply cannot acknowledge the fact that government is necessary and plays a positive role in the course of our events.
Sure gov. has its problems, everything subject to human control has problems. Even your free market has failures.
Do you admit that gov. is necessary?
-
when you are a dullard like Decker, maybe that is true....
Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate
That seems to be your calling.
See...I'm a dullard. hahahaha.
Come back when you have something constructive or entertaining to say.
-
Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate
That seems to be your calling.
See...I'm a dullard. hahahaha.
Come back when you have something constructive or entertaining to say.
Hmmmm......kinda like on my thread, huh? Pot meet kettle.
8)
-
Hmmmm......kinda like on my thread, huh? Pot meet kettle.
8)
My thread is well thought out and informative. Yours is a font of bullshit and error.
So the two aren't really the same, are they?
-
You simply cannot acknowledge the fact that government is necessary and plays a positive role in the course of our events.
Sure gov. has its problems, everything subject to human control has problems. Even your free market has failures.
Do you admit that gov. is necessary?
The govt, as Jefferson said, is but a necessary evil. It is not positive force, but required in only limited areas to preserve liberty and freedom.
It is not supposed to be usurping liberty and freedom from some so that it can give to others. At least that is not what our country was founded on.
-
You simply cannot acknowledge the fact that government is necessary and plays a positive role in the course of our events.
Sure gov. has its problems, everything subject to human control has problems. Even your free market has failures.
Do you admit that gov. is necessary?
Government is necessary, but the United States Constitution limits the power of the Federal Government, and defers it to the states, which seems to have been ignored since FDR and the new deal. Then LBJ and the great society, and now Obama and the "fair society".
The governments "need" to stick it's nose in the buisness of its citizens has been shown to be a disaster time after time.
-
The govt, as Jefferson said, is but a necessary evil. It is not positive force, but required in only limited areas to preserve liberty and freedom.
It is not supposed to be usurping liberty and freedom from some so that it can give to others. At least that is not what our country was founded on.
Gov. is a positive force. Jefferson's histrionics aside, the gov. has helped flood victims, college students, old people, disabled people, corporate industry and on and on.
How exactly are those noble things usurping liberty and freedom?
What on earth do the beliefs of the founders have to do with the nonsense pushed by today's libertarian?
-
Government is necessary, but the United States Constitution limits the power of the Federal Government, and defers it to the states, which seems to have been ignored since FDR and the new deal. Then LBJ and the great society, and now Obama and the "fair society".
There are more features to the US constitution than just the 10th amendment.
The governments "need" to stick it's nose in the buisness of its citizens has been shown to be a disaster time after time.
Such as?
When FDR set up Soc. Sec., anti-trust laws, FDIC, TVA and others, he did a great service to our country. The free market fails all the time. We need governmental moderation of the markets. Services that private entities cannot or will not provide are provided by the federal government.
-
Gov. is a positive force. Jefferson's histrionics aside, the gov. has helped flood victims, college students, old people, disabled people, corporate industry and on and on.
How exactly are those noble things usurping liberty and freedom?
What on earth do the beliefs of the founders have to do with the nonsense pushed by today's libertarian?
"How exactly are those noble things usurping liberty and freedom?"
You are clueless. Really clueless. In order to "help" all those people, you are hurting others in the form of confiscatory taxes, insane regulations, corporate welfare, inflation, etc.
The govt has not helped people with aschool loans other than the GI Bill. School loans like the govt gives only makes colleges, like health care and everything else it gets involved in, overly expensive and outpaces the core rate of inflation.
Tell me Decker: Why is is that computers, cell phones, tech, have all come down in price while the quality has gone up while health care, education, cars, homes etc have all gone up in price far beyond the rate of inflation?????
-
Government is necessary but its powers specifically limited by our founders and the constitution. They would be at significant odds with progressives. They would also be at odds with pure libertarians. Pure libertarianism and pure capitalism is unwise. However, it is clear that Obama and the progressives are taking this country away from the ideals it was founded upon through our constitution. They must be checked in 2010.
-
"How exactly are those noble things usurping liberty and freedom?"
You are clueless. Really clueless. In order to "help" all those people, you are hurting others in the form of confiscatory taxes, insane regulations, corporate welfare, inflation, etc.
Your anti-tax rhetoric is baloney. It's just another example of your complete and utter selfishness.
For some reason, you think the US came as is, paid for by no one, and is your personal playground. It isn't.
Insane regulations? Like the regulations that ensure your food won't kill you or that your water won't poison you or that bridges won't collapse from under you?
What exactly are you talking about?
The govt has not helped people with aschool loans other than the GI Bill.
You've never heard of federal college loans? They exist.
https://www.fafsa.com/Forms/Ajax/FAFSA/frmProfile.aspx?rf=0;pku3at=zg50002a
School loans like the govt gives only makes colleges, like health care and everything else it gets involved in, overly expensive and outpaces the core rate of inflation.
I don't understand what you are trying to express here.
Tell me Decker: Why is is that computers, cell phones, tech, have all come down in price while the quality has gone up while health care, education, cars, homes etc have all gone up in price far beyond the rate of inflation?????
The gov. gave free R&D to private corporations for cell phones, computers and tech.
I know why health care is out of control and it's for different reasons than those attributable to cars or homes or education.
What's your point?
-
Sanford and Son had a great episode last night.
watch 4:27 and why Grady justifies cashing in extra social security chacks that were sent to him by accident.
-
Government is necessary but its powers specifically limited by our founders and the constitution. They would be at significant odds with progressives.
Exactly how?
They would also be at odds with pure libertarians. Pure libertarianism and pure capitalism is unwise. However, it is clear that Obama and the progressives are taking this country away from the ideals it was founded upon through our constitution. They must be checked in 2010.
Again, exactly how?
I can point to the successes of the New Deal to show that governmental spending does in fact work. By 'work' I mean improve the lives of millions of people b/c the free market failed them.
-
Sanford and Son had a great episode last night.
watch 4:27 and why Grady justifies cashing in extra social security chacks that were sent to him by accident.
Sanford and Son was a top show for me. Nobody beats Fred.
-
Decker - you seriously are clueless.
If you want to pay 100% taxes, fine, you are free to do so, but at least admit you could care less about being free.
Many of us prefer to not have to work over 1/2 the year for the govt.
-
This is a fundamental difference of opinion that is probably not going to go anywhere. Government is certainly not all bad and is certainly necessary IMO...but government is also wasteful and politicians are corrupt. The larger the government is; with more committees, representatives, czars, obligations, programs, etc. the more it costs (the less discretionary income individuals have to choose how to spend) and the more waste there is.
-
Decker - you seriously are clueless.
If you want to pay 100% taxes, fine, you are free to do so, but at least admit you could care less about being free.
Many of us prefer to not have to work over 1/2 the year for the govt.
Freedom does not mean freedom from responsibility.
It means freedom to do certain things and be free from certain things.
When you figure that out, then your libertarian error will disappear.
-
Freedom does not mean freedom from responsibility.
It means freedom to do certain things and be free from certain things.
When you figure that out, then your libertarian error will disappear.
But - according to Decker - Freedom means paying 50% or better to Uncle Sam and accept whatever garbage they feed us.
I got it.
-
This is a fundamental difference of opinion that is probably not going to go anywhere. Government is certainly not all bad and is certainly necessary IMO...but government is also wasteful and politicians are corrupt. The larger the government is; with more committees, representatives, czars, obligations, programs, etc. the more it costs (the less discretionary income individuals have to choose how to spend) and the more waste there is.
I agree with you to an extent.
Population will likely keep growing. Representative government for that growing population will necessarily increase. Government will grow to meet the complexities of a growing society.
Gov. makes mistakes b/c people make mistakes. Gov. has competing interests b/c people have competing interests. And gov., by and for the people, must eventually choose which interest trumps another for the moment.
Waste happens. Working to minimize waste is a good thing.
But there is no denying the necessity and sometimes good effect of the federal government. Same goes for the private sector.
-
But - according to Decker - Freedom means paying 50% or better to Uncle Sam and accept whatever garbage they feed us.
I got it.
We've been throught this time and again.
You don't pay 50% or better of your earnings in taxes. You don't. Stop that.
Ironically, if you had your way and there was no FDA regulating the food chain, you would be eating garbage quite literally.
-
We've been throught this time and again.
You don't pay 50% or better of your earnings in taxes. You don't. Stop that.
Ironically, if you had your way and there was no FDA regulating the food chain, you would be eating garbage quite literally.
when you tally up State, Federal, Local, excise, sales, property, vehicle, energy, gas, phone, etc- everyone is up near 50% in one way or another.
-
when you tally up State, Federal, Local, excise, sales, property, vehicle, energy, gas, phone, etc- everyone is up near 50% in one way or another.
No it's not.
When you tally state and federal taxes, the US's burden is only 28% of GDP. The UK's is 37.1, Ireland-37, Sweden- 49.1, France- 44.2, Luxembourg
35.9 and so on.
Relatively speaking, we have a light tax burden.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2009/04/bartlett-time-to-tea-bag-the-tea-parties.html
-
No it's not.
When you tally state and federal taxes, the US's burden is only 28% of GDP. The UK's is 37.1, Ireland-37, Sweden- 49.1, France- 44.2, Luxembourg
35.9 and so on.
Relatively speaking, we have a light tax burden.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2009/04/bartlett-time-to-tea-bag-the-tea-parties.html
more BS from you. You are confusing things intentionally and you know it.
Take a single guy in NYC who makes 70k and tally up everything he pays in takes and it is probably close to 50% when all is said and done.
-
Wasn't this same thread posted multiple times?
It was moronic then and its moronic now. Deck, nice to see you're around again, but please- some new material is definetly in order.
-
Wasn't this same thread posted multiple times?
It was moronic then and its moronic now. Deck, nice to see you're around again, but please- some new material is definetly in order.
This board is monopolized by fact deficient and morally retarded libertarians.
The fight goes.
And thank you.
-
This board is monopolized by fact deficient and morally retarded libertarians.
The fight goes.
And thank you.
Morally retarded????
Why? Because I dont want to fund every pet project and program you think is important?
-
Morally retarded????
Why? Because I dont want to fund every pet project and program you think is important?
Arguing for wise spending and limited taxation is a good thing.
Arguing that all taxation is confiscatory and that all gov. spending is wasteful is counterproductive and has no foothold in the real world.
-
Arguing for wise spending and limited taxation is a good thing.
Arguing that all taxation is confiscatory and that all gov. spending is wasteful is counterproductive and has no foothold in the real world.
I never said there should be no taxes. However, what is being urged now is a massive increase in taxes, either directly, indirectly, or through inflation.
You and I disagree whether that is a good thing.
-
No it's not.
When you tally state and federal taxes, the US's burden is only 28% of GDP. The UK's is 37.1, Ireland-37, Sweden- 49.1, France- 44.2, Luxembourg
35.9 and so on.
Relatively speaking, we have a light tax burden.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2009/04/bartlett-time-to-tea-bag-the-tea-parties.html
Do you enjoy using miscalculated numbers? GDP? Really, that ever knowing, always wonderful number? If the government decides to spend money it doesn't have, guess what happens? The GDP goes up. Also GDP includes salaries of employees, plus their expenditures. That means if a married couple brings in 150,000 dollars a year, and spends 75,000, their measure is 225,000. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why that isn't all that accurate.
Going back to the above point about the government, our government spends so much more than other governments, artificially causing a spike in the GDP. So when you say that we as Americans spend a lower percentage of our GDP, I think that is a misguided statement.
Hope this helps
-
Do you enjoy using miscalculated numbers? GDP? Really, that ever knowing, always wonderful number? If the government decides to spend money it doesn't have, guess what happens? The GDP goes up. Also GDP includes salaries of employees, plus their expenditures. That means if a married couple brings in 150,000 dollars a year, and spends 75,000, their measure is 225,000. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why that isn't all that accurate.
Going back to the above point about the government, our government spends so much more than other governments, artificially causing a spike in the GDP. So when you say that we as Americans spend a lower percentage of our GDP, I think that is a misguided statement.
Hope this helps
not only that, but Decker misdled with his post since the number now of GDP spending is almost what it was during WW2.
Never confuse a lib with the facts right????
-
Decker, when you add federal + state + local + RITA + property taxes. Most people are between 40-50% taxation. That is not light taxation. I oppose almost anything that raises taxes more than they are now. Spending needs to be cut.
-
Do you enjoy using miscalculated numbers? GDP? Really, that ever knowing, always wonderful number? If the government decides to spend money it doesn't have, guess what happens? The GDP goes up. Also GDP includes salaries of employees, plus their expenditures. That means if a married couple brings in 150,000 dollars a year, and spends 75,000, their measure is 225,000. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why that isn't all that accurate.
Going back to the above point about the government, our government spends so much more than other governments, artificially causing a spike in the GDP. So when you say that we as Americans spend a lower percentage of our GDP, I think that is a misguided statement.
Hope this helps
What are you trying to say? You're not helping.
GDP is reliable index for measuring tax burdens.
Leveraged spending happens all the time--loans for homes, wars etc. It's big piece of how growth happens. You should be more concerned what that spending comprises instead the fact that it happens.
I posted a national comparison on individual tax burdens somewhere on this godforsaken site.
We'll use this instead:
Believe it or not, Americans enjoy some of the lowest income tax rates in the world. Today of all days, it might not seem so.
When you look at the overall tax burden, the U.S. is quite low," said Eric Toder, a senior fellow at the Urban Institute in Washington, D.C., and former director of the office of research for the Internal Revenue Service.
...The OECD collects data on 30 member countries and annually calculates what it calls the tax "wedge" for each -- the combined effects of personal income tax, employee and employer social security contributions, payroll taxes and cash benefits.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P148855.asp
Unless you are paying way over 21% of your income in sales tax, you are not paying well over 50% of your annual earnings in taxes.
-
not only that, but Decker misdled with his post since the number now of GDP spending is almost what it was during WW2.
Never confuse a lib with the facts right????
You make as much sense as grab an umbrella.
-
Decker, when you add federal + state + local + RITA + property taxes. Most people are between 40-50% taxation. That is not light taxation. I oppose almost anything that raises taxes more than they are now. Spending needs to be cut.
Most people do not pay between 40-50% of their earnings in taxes. They don't. The number is closer to 30%.
-
If you make over $80,000/yr and own a home, your total tax burden is around 40% (thats including state, local, rita, medicare and SS). Thats a lot of taxes for a middle class person. Sales tax differs by state but through that in there as well...usually around 8%.
Point being is the middle class and upper middle class already pay a lot of taxes. IMO, our governments have become too comfortable with excessive spending and budgets.
In Rome, they took 1/10th of your earnings.
-
If you make over $80,000/yr and own a home, your total tax burden is around 40% (thats including state, local, rita, medicare and SS). Thats a lot of taxes for a middle class person. Sales tax differs by state but through that in there as well...usually around 8%.
Point being is the middle class and upper middle class already pay a lot of taxes. IMO, our governments have become too comfortable with excessive spending and budgets.
In Rome, they took 1/10th of your earnings.
What happened to Rome?
Rome had huge economic problems due to not being able to finance eg the military.
As for the government, it seems like Obama lacks the political balls or whatever to cut down on some of the biggest spending posts.
The Military has to be slimmed down severly.
Trying to do something about the ailing health care costs is obviously a good deed.
A lot of people seems to forget that a sick nation will be much less effective than one that is well.
But the execution of the health care reform hasn't impressed me so far.
Over here, we will get swine flu vaccine for the whole population this fall.
Pandemias are just one obvious reason for universal health care.
IMO, if and when the swine flu hits with full force you're bound to see an increased support for SOME TYPE of health care reform.
-
If you make over $80,000/yr and own a home, your total tax burden is around 40% (thats including state, local, rita, medicare and SS). Thats a lot of taxes for a middle class person. Sales tax differs by state but through that in there as well...usually around 8%.
Point being is the middle class and upper middle class already pay a lot of taxes. IMO, our governments have become too comfortable with excessive spending and budgets.
In Rome, they took 1/10th of your earnings.
First we'll look at state income tax rates. The range from 0-9%, some states have graded schedules and some do not. The average state income tax is about 6-7%. State and local taxes (including property tax) are deductible. Sales tax run btn 0-7% with the average being 4-5%. State sales tax can also be deductible but not in the same way state and local taxes are.
Every study I have ever seen about individual total tax burden comes up with 30% or less as the average.
I agree with you on the spending part. It seems that only a national catastrophe would prioritize spending...at least it used to.
-
First we'll look at state income tax rates. The range from 0-9%, some states have graded schedules and some do not. The average state income tax is about 6-7%. State and local taxes (including property tax) are deductible. Sales tax run btn 0-7% with the average being 4-5%. State sales tax can also be deductible but not in the same way state and local taxes are.
Every study I have ever seen about individual total tax burden comes up with 30% or less as the average.
I agree with you on the spending part. It seems that only a national catastrophe would prioritize spending...at least it used to.
Top tax bracket-35%
Georgia State Tax(where I live)6%
Fulton County Sales tax(where I live)8-9%(depends on if you're in atlanta)
Property Tax-this one gets tricky
25 dollars for every 1000 dollars of assessed property value, where property value is hedl at 50% percent of market value.
Other taxes
Excise tax(on smokes)Federal-$1.01/pack
Excise tax(on smokes)State-.37$
Beer tax-$1.01/gallon
Wine tax-$1.51/gallon
Liquor tax-$3.79(didn't state quantity)
Capital Gains tax-15%
I'm sure there are tons of other taxes I'm forgetting, but it's easy to see how quickly this call all add up.
-
Top tax bracket-35%
Georgia State Tax(where I live)6%
Fulton County Sales tax(where I live)8-9%(depends on if you're in atlanta)
Property Tax-this one gets tricky
25 dollars for every 1000 dollars of assessed property value, where property value is hedl at 50% percent of market value.
Other taxes
Excise tax(on smokes)Federal-$1.01/pack
Excise tax(on smokes)State-.37$
Beer tax-$1.01/gallon
Wine tax-$1.51/gallon
Liquor tax-$3.79(didn't state quantity)
Capital Gains tax-15%
I'm sure there are tons of other taxes I'm forgetting, but it's easy to see how quickly this call all add up.
Gasoline Tax
Cell Phone Tax
Electric Bill Tax
-
Top tax bracket-35%
Georgia State Tax(where I live)6%
Fulton County Sales tax(where I live)8-9%(depends on if you're in atlanta)
Property Tax-this one gets tricky
25 dollars for every 1000 dollars of assessed property value, where property value is hedl at 50% percent of market value.
Other taxes
Excise tax(on smokes)Federal-$1.01/pack
Excise tax(on smokes)State-.37$
Beer tax-$1.01/gallon
Wine tax-$1.51/gallon
Liquor tax-$3.79(didn't state quantity)
Capital Gains tax-15%
I'm sure there are tons of other taxes I'm forgetting, but it's easy to see how quickly this call all add up.
Nobody pays an income tax of 35%. There is something called an effective tax rate.
http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Effective+tax+rate
Federal (and some state) income tax is graded. It has deductions and exemptions. Property taxes are deductible.
The total tax burden/effective tax rate for the rich is 30.9%.
For everyone else, it's 29.4%.
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2009.pdf
Jeez, we already have a flat tax system.
-
Sanford and Son had a great episode last night.
watch 4:27 and why Grady justifies cashing in extra social security chacks that were sent to him by accident.
;D ;D