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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: The True Adonis on August 18, 2009, 06:25:45 PM
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EDUCATES JOE,Leaves him speechless, Puts Obama and his garbage plans in their rightful place and focuses on strictly THE FACTS on Single Payer.
PART 1
PART 2
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:o
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you never answer my question TA
why can we not do those things without providing healthcare to all on other ppls dime is my question...If its simply about competition and choices which is what obama is making it into, let insurance policies cross state lines, implement those regs and procedures that are supposedly going to slash overhead for insurance companies....what exactly does the single payer system offer OVER the regs and procedures that obama is implementing other then health care for all on a few ppls dime...Im aware of how you feel about a single payer health care system but if we can lower costs and provide better coverage without it like obama says we can why do we need one?
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you never answer my question TA
I did with the previous post. You are wrong on a lot of your assumptions. Please go back and review what I wrote.
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Let me also add,
If you cannot understand what I wrote or where you are wrong in your assumption, I will gladly point it out and clarify. I do however find it more constructive for you to realize your mistake and for you to post it.
Single Payer is the most economical and cost-effective method. More than twice the savings as any plan currently offered.
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Let me also add,
If you cannot understand what I wrote or where you are wrong in your assumption, I will gladly point it out and clarify. I do however find it more constructive for you to realize your mistake and for you to post it.
lol, your ego's giving me a great nightime laugh. :D
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Tony Weiner makes a really good point here.
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I did with the previous post. You are wrong on a lot of your assumptions. Please go back and review what I wrote.
I did read it, it didnt explain what the single payer offers over the rules and regs obama is trying to implement on private insurers all it did was explain why you like the single payer health care system and what that does but if obamas plan does that with out implementing a single payer health care plan why do we need one other then to give health care to ppl on others dimes?
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I did read it, it didnt explain what the single payer offers over the rules and regs obama is trying to implement on private insurers all it did was explain why you like the single payer health care system and what that does but if obamas plan does that with out implementing a single payer health care plan why do we need one other then to give health care to ppl on others dimes?
Please see my other posts and threads.
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Please see my other posts and threads.
I read it again you didnt explain anything....
there are only a few things in that and the are of the smallest consequence that a single payer system offers over the proposed legislation etc. that obama is proposing, so why not just enact those steps and leave the single payer out?
you didnt explain shit TA you said what the single payer provides, but obamas supposed rules and regs will provide those as well so why do we need a single payer health system?
maybe youre misunderstand what im asking b/c you didnt answer shit....
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The simple question is this:
Do Americans want to pay wholesale or retail for their healthcare?
None of these town hall "death-panellers' can explain where the billions of dollars of HMO profit comes from each year... it's not private sector "efficiency": their overheads are 10-12%, which is three or four times the 4% overhead from MediCare, which cover disproportionately more elderly and sickly (pre-existing condition) lo-profit customers.
It's the double whammy of gouging and illegitimate denial of coverage, plain and simple.
The "socialism" argument doesn't hold water either.
The roads system is socialised: single payer, the taxpayer.
The monetary system is socialised: single payer, the taxpayer (via the Federl Reserve).
Foreign aid is socialised: single payer, the taxpayer.
Welfare is socialised: single payer, the taxpayer.
The police force is socialised: single payer, the taxpayer.
The military is socialised: single payer, the taxpayer.
If you are against "socialised medicine", do you want to close the VA hospitals?
That's not "supporting our troops".
The Luke
(thanks to Adonis for the excellent vids)
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The simple question is this:
Do Americans want to pay wholesale or retail for their healthcare?
None of these town hall "death-panellers' can explain where the billions of dollars of HMO profit comes from each year... it's not private sector "efficiency": their overheads are 10-12%, which is three or four times the 4% overhead from MediCare, which cover disproportionately more elderly and sickly (pre-existing condition) lo-profit customers.
It's the double whammy of gouging and illegitimate denial of coverage, plain and simple.
thing is we can limit gouging and eliminate denial of coverage WITHOUT A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM.....so why do we need a single payer system other then to give health care everyone on other ppls dimes?
nobody has been able to give me an answer on this, straw, TA so please luke why do we need a single payer system?
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Dear President Obama,
I understand you’re thinking of dumping your “public option” because of all the demagoguery by Sarah Palin and Dick Armey and Newt Gingrich and their crowd on right-wing radio and Fox. Fine. Good idea, in fact.
Instead, let’s make it simple. Please let us buy into Medicare.
It would be so easy. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel with this so-called “public option” that’s a whole new program from the ground up. Medicare already exists. It works. Some people will like it, others won’t – just like the Post Office versus FedEx analogy you’re so comfortable with.
Just pass a simple bill – it could probably be just a few lines, like when Medicare was expanded to include disabled people – that says that any American citizen can buy into the program at a rate to be set by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) and the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) which reflects the actual cost for us to buy into it.
So it’s revenue neutral!
To make it available to people of low income, raise the rates slightly for all currently non-eligible people (like me - under 65) to cover the cost of below-200%-of-poverty people. Revenue neutral again.
Most of us will do damn near anything to get out from under the thumbs of the multi-millionaire CEOs who are running our current insurance programs. Sign me up!
This lets you blow up all the rumors about death panels and grandma and everything else: everybody knows what Medicare is. Those who scorn it can go with Blue Cross. Those who like it can buy into it. Simplicity itself.
Of course, we’d like a few fixes, like letting Medicare negotiate drug prices and filling some of the holes Republicans and AARP and the big insurance lobbyists have drilled into Medicare so people have to buy “supplemental” insurance, but that can wait for the second round. Let’s get this done first.
Simple stuff. Medicare for anybody who wants it. Private health insurance for those who don’t. Easy message. Even Max Baucus and Chuck Grassley can understand it. Sarah Palin can buy into it, or ignore it. No death panels, no granny plugs, nothing. Just a few sentences.
Replace the “you must be disabled or 65” with “here’s what it’ll cost if you want to buy in, and here’s the sliding scale of subsidies we’ll give you if you’re poor, paid for by everybody else who’s buying in.” (You could roll back the Reagan tax cuts and make it all free, but that’s another rant.)
We elected you because we expected you to have the courage of your convictions. Here’s how. Not the “single payer Medicare for all” that many of us would prefer, but a simple, “Medicare for anybody who wants to buy in.”
Respectfully,
Thom Hartmann
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thing is we can limit gouging and eliminate denial of coverage WITHOUT A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM.....so why do we need a single payer system other then to give health care everyone on other ppls dimes?
...I can't answer your question because I don't understand your grammar. Sorry.
But I'll answer what I can decypher.
If you are arguing that price gouging should be limited, I've got to ask "Why?"
Why limit the gouging, why not eliminate it? Why do you WANT to put money in the HMOs pocket? It's the doctors; hospitals and pharmacies that treat you, the HMO is just a non-contributing toll collector: a gouger by definition.
If you are arguing that denial of coverage can be eliminated within the for-profit HMO industry you are sorely deluded. Denial of coverage is one of only two methods (the other being gouging) by which HMOs make their profits.
The argument about other "peoples dimes" is also deluded.
The public eventually picks up the dime for all healthcare in the US.
As it stands now, the American public pays approximately twice what France pays per capita:
-France has an all-inclusive system funded by taxes which is rated the best in the world.
-America covers 80% of its population with the 37th best system in the world.
Americans are being ripped off: fact!
It's simple mathematics:
Cost to the public = (Cost of care) + (HMO overheads) + (HMO profits)
Why pay the HMOs? They don't provide any care. If the public just bunched together and went to the care providers (doctors; hospitals; pharmacies) directly they could change this eqation to:
Cost to the public = Cost of care
That's all single payer is.
Now imagine how low the premiums wold be if you added in monopoly pricing structures. sin the taxpayer monopoly to guarantee the lowest possible costs: stopping even the doctors and Big Pharma from gouging... then simply roll those premiums into taxes so everyone is forced to pay their fair share.
The 36 countries above America in the ranking of healthcare systems ALL have full inclusion and ALL have single payer.
This entire argument is moronic. Just steal the French system.
The Luke
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the reason i say limit gouging is b/c as a business they will always find ways to gouge and the govt must react...
yes we can eliminate denial of coverage with legislation etc...
I love how you guys think the govt wont do the exact same shit that these private health insurers are doing its fucking awesome the amount of trust you guys put into your elected officials.
again all of these things can be addressed without implementing a single payer system.
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the reason i say limit gouging is b/c as a business they will always find ways to gouge and the govt must react...
yes we can eliminate denial of coverage with legislation etc...
I love how you guys think the govt wont do the exact same shit that these private health insurers are doing its fucking awesome the amount of trust you guys put into your elected officials.
again all of these things can be addressed without implementing a single payer system.
Please Review the full coverage Medicare, VA hospitals provide in the United States which are Single Payer as well as how comprehensive the Health coverage the Rest of the Civilized and Industrialized world gives.
These are all proven systems that put to rest your fears and concerns.
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the reason i say limit gouging is b/c as a business they will always find ways to gouge and the govt must react...
yes we can eliminate denial of coverage with legislation etc...
I love how you guys think the govt wont do the exact same shit that these private health insurers are doing its fucking awesome the amount of trust you guys put into your elected officials.
again all of these things can be addressed without implementing a single payer system.
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These things will do nothing in the long run as costs will continue to go up, millions will still not be covered, and you still will have no choice of what doctors you can see or where you can seek treatment as long as Private Insurance dictates points of service and how much they pay or don`t pay.
Don`t think for a moment that Private Insurance Companies can`t easily circumvent these simple "reforms". The credit card companies were able to do so easily with the "credit card bill of rights" by charging monthly fees, raising service fees etc...
Plans are crafted easily in order to maximize profit. Don`t think for a moment that any Insurance company that is used to doubling profits each year, in the BILLIONS AND BILLIONS, will not be looking to do the same and therefore will agree to not making as much profit.
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These things will do nothing in the long run as costs will continue to go up, millions will still not be covered, and you still will have no choice of what doctors you can see or where you can seek treatment as long as Private Insurance dictates points of service and how much they pay or don`t pay.
Don`t think for a moment that Private Insurance Companies can`t easily circumvent these simple "reforms". The credit card companies were able to do so easily with the "credit card bill of rights" by charging monthly fees, raising service fees etc...
Plans are crafted easily in order to maximize profit. Don`t think for a moment that any Insurance company that is used to doubling profits each year, in the BILLIONS AND BILLIONS, will not be looking to do the same and therefore will agree to not making as much profit.
First off...that was an hilarious thread title, I full expected to see Joe having a hot-dog shoved down his throat. Very nice.
Second, I believe that I am leaning towards agreeing with you on some of these points. This reform, whether or not it has a "public option" has been perverted by the lobbyists who hedged their bets on both sides of the issue with plenty of money and "donations". So it really didn't matter what side "won" the day as the insurance/healthcare industry would win either way.
Before a single-payer system is even proposed we need to completely revamp and simplify our tax code, actually enforce our sovereign borders and enforce, hard, our immigration laws. Also, cutting baseline govt. spending and shrinking the actual govt. would also be a good place to start to free up money for a single payer system.
Plenty of other stuff to discuss on this topic, but these are but a few of the points I see.
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First off...that was an hilarious thread title, I full expected to see Joe having a hot-dog shoved down his throat. Very nice.
Second, I believe that I am leaning towards agreeing with you on some of these points. This reform, whether or not it has a "public option" has been perverted by the lobbyists who hedged their bets on both sides of the issue with plenty of money and "donations". So it really didn't matter what side "won" the day as the insurance/healthcare industry would win either way.
Before a single-payer system is even proposed we need to completely revamp and simplify our tax code, actually enforce our sovereign borders and enforce, hard, our immigration laws. Also, cutting baseline govt. spending and shrinking the actual govt. would also be a good place to start to free up money for a single payer system.
Plenty of other stuff to discuss on this topic, but these are but a few of the points I see.
this is what im talking about like i said its a worthy cause but free up the money first and then we will talk dont tell us how your going to pay for it b/c all that is saying is "youre going to get fucked tax payers but were just going to put it off for a while and blame it on something else"
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:o
You know what TA - that was a good clip. Weiner made a great point about the cheaper drugs, BUT OBAMA DID THE EXACT OPPOSITE WITH HIS DEAL WITH THE PHARMA COMPANIES!
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First off...that was an hilarious thread title, I full expected to see Joe having a hot-dog shoved down his throat. Very nice.
I agree. I thought he was euphemistically refering to Scraborough getting pwned.
Even though he was, ...I didn't expect it to be from a guy actually named Weiner.
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You know what TA - that was a good clip. Weiner made a great point about the cheaper drugs, BUT OBAMA DID THE EXACT OPPOSITE WITH HIS DEAL WITH THE PHARMA COMPANIES!
100% correct
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Chris Matthews got the WEINER also.
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I may disagree with Wiener - but at least I know where he stands on this. I can respect him far more than Obama who is lying about all of this.
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Joe Scarborough is an idiot, he kept dodging Weiner's question "Why do we need insurance companies?". Weiner's dead on, they do nothing other than take your money, give it to the doctor and take a huge chunk out for themselves. I can't believe anyone would defend an insurance company.
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Joe Scarborough is an idiot, he kept dodging Weiner's question "Why do we need insurance companies?". Weiner's dead on, they do nothing other than take your money, give it to the doctor and take a huge chunk out for themselves. I can't believe anyone would defend an insurance company.
You know what, the whole third party payer system does not work. I can agree with this. However, the thought of the govt running this is equally as ominous.
Health care needs to be decoupled from employment IMHO.
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You know what, the whole third party payer system does not work. I can agree with this. However, the thought of the govt running this is equally as ominous.
Health care needs to be decoupled from employment IMHO.
I don't see why... It's ominous because people are so caught up in the "smaller government" schtick.
When government works... It works well.
Medicare, Medicaid, the VA.
Outside of the medical aspects even, when you look at our military and intelligence services... They work VERY VERY well.
The problem is that people LOVE what the government does, they just hate paying taxes to do it.
I was talking to my friend just the other day about just extending medicare to everyone... I like that.
If you want in, you get in... sounds pretty simple.
They real problem is that the people who have insurance just don't want it to change... but Weiner is right. As long as I'm covered and can get what I want, I don't care who the "insurance provider" is... I just want to see my doctor and get an operation if I need to.
The fact that there is no profit in Medicare is a fact... and 4% overhead is pretty damn good.
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You know what, the whole third party payer system does not work. I can agree with this. However, the thought of the govt running this is equally as ominous.
Health care needs to be decoupled from employment IMHO.
I agree. What's your alternative.
Why do health insurance companies even exist. There only purpose for being it to create wealth for shareholders. They add nothing to the healthcare system. They stand between the patient and the health care provider and sift off dollars. Let's put everyone in Medicare and let the insurance companies worry about how they are going to survive. If the govt run plan is so bad then surely the private companies will find a way.
Most likely what will happen is all the dollars wasted on insurance companies will remain in the system and go to healthcare provider and patients (in the form of health care).
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I agree. What's your alternative.
Why do health insurance companies even exist. There only purpose for being it to create wealth for shareholders. They add nothing to the healthcare system. They stand between the patient and the health care provider and sift off dollars. Let's put everyone in Medicare and let the insurance companies worry about how they are going to survive. If the govt run plan is so bad then surely the private companies will find a way.
Most likely what will happen is all the dollars wasted on insurance companies will remain in the system and go to healthcare provider and patients (in the form of health care).
They are supposed to be in theory like home insurance or auto insurance. It did not work that way though since many states require the privvate plans to cover all sorts of crap thereby driving premiuims up.
An analogy might be the price of auto insurance and how much the cost would go up if oil changes, wiper blades, tires, scratches, etc all had to be covered by law under the same policy. .
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They are supposed to be in theory like home insurance or auto insurance. It did not work that way though since many states require the privvate plans to cover all sorts of crap thereby driving premiuims up.
An analogy might be the price of auto insurance and how much the cost would go up if oil changes, wiper blades, tires, scratches, etc all had to be covered by law under the same policy. .
Adopting Auto Insurance is a giant scam in itself and people should be outraged by it also. New Hampshire and Wisconsin do not require auto insurance at all.
It is beyond me how any citizen would want the government forcing you to buy a "product" from the private sector.
Furthermore, auto insurance should be completely optional and solely to protect YOUR OWN car, nobody elses car, should you feel it warrants protection or if you want it to have such protection.
Another upside to Universal Healthcare in a Single Payer system, it renders Auto Insurance completely useless for medical or injury justification and puts them in a solely optional category. Furthermore, Auto Insurance rates would plummet as they no longer would have to carry any medical element (which is totally stupid by design in the first place).
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Adonis,
Do you have any direct, personal experience with Medicare as a patient or doctor?
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Adonis,
Do you have any direct, personal experience with Medicare as a patient or doctor?
I worked for UnitedHealth Group and dealt with Medicare on a daily basis. Medicare is superior in its delivery and coverage to any plan we offered across the entire United States. I dealt with doctors and patients and doctor`s billing office on a daily basis also. EVERYDAY I would have doctors ready to strangle me for denial of payment, same with patients. It is a shame when Doctors have to waste their time to try to recoup payment from an Insurance Provider. I do not have exact figures, but I can assure you that Billions of dollars goes unpaid simply because the Doctor gave up haggling with us.
If you knew the giant Bureaucracy involved in a Private Insurance Company, you`d be outraged. Medicare does not suffer a 100th of the problems and Doctors love to treat patients with Medicare.
Another member on this board, "Andy Griffin" worked with me at UnitedHealth and he can tell you the horror stories as well.
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I worked for UnitedHealth Group and dealt with Medicare on a daily basis. Medicare is superior in its delivery and coverage to any plan we offered across the entire United States. I dealt with doctors and patients and doctor`s billing office on a daily basis also. EVERYDAY I would have doctors ready to strangle me for denial of payment, same with patients. It is a shame when Doctors have to waste their time to try to recoup payment from an Insurance Provider. I do not have exact figures, but I can assure you that Billions of dollars goes unpaid simply because the Doctor gave up haggling with us.
If you knew the giant Bureaucracy involved in a Private Insurance Company, you`d be outraged. Medicare does not suffer a 100th of the problems and Doctors love to treat patients with Medicare.
Another member on this board, "Andy Griffin" worked with me at UnitedHealth and he can tell you the horror stories as well.
I'm intimately familiar with private insurance bureaucracy and Medicare isn't much better.
How exactly are providers expected to deliver care when getting paid has such high administrative costs. Sure, Medicare isn't spending more than 4% admin fees but the doctors/hospitals have to pay people to collect. That's simply shifting admin fees onto providers.
The only reason Medicare/Medicaid works (at an office level) is because private insurance payments exist. Unless offices are overbooked or people tack on needless procedures/visits people never break even treating medicare patients and even lose money in most cases. You're pretty much taught that the occasional Medicare case is to be considered charity.
Sadly, when doctors begin opting out or refuse to join something that can not possibly work (as described) the class warfare card will be played.
I was never a fan of math but now realize why it should be stressed in school. People really can't freaking add so they let politicians convince them everything can be had for free.
I believe the insurance companies suck ass and are greedy as hell. That's not the point at all. And, Yes, the system needs fixing. All those things being admitted, you can't "fix" the system in a way that makes the actual delivery of healthcare unaffordable at the doctor/patient level. Doing so will technically create more insured but decrease availability of service.
People are putting political aspirations and ideology before simple math. One side aiming to thwart a presidential and the other hoping things will just work. :)