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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:05:54 AM

Title: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:05:54 AM
I think I've stayed up about 32 hours max...  ???
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: jaejonna on August 28, 2009, 06:07:39 AM
49 hours is my record ....
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on August 28, 2009, 06:08:11 AM
Just little over 24 hours... :-\
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: HTexan on August 28, 2009, 06:08:21 AM
yeah about 38 or so freshman year. >:( >:(
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:09:07 AM
wow  :o
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: HTexan on August 28, 2009, 06:12:14 AM
wow  :o
it wasn't fun >:( >:( And to top it off the bitch give me a "C".
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on August 28, 2009, 06:14:36 AM
I went to a party on a Friday night and didn't sleep until Monday morning.  It was a 2 day rave that started Friday night and never stopped until early monday morning, I was fucked on ecstacy, special K, weed, you name it.  I did enough drugs that weekend to kill a small animal.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:16:15 AM
I went to a party on a Friday night and didn't sleep until Monday morning.  It was a 2 day rave that started Friday night and never stopped until early monday morning, I was fucked on ecstacy, special K, weed, you name it.  I did enough drugs that weekend to kill a small animal.

Any shake-and-bake meth?  ???
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: HTexan on August 28, 2009, 06:17:27 AM
I went to a party on a Friday night and didn't sleep until Monday morning.  It was a 2 day rave that started Friday night and never stopped until early monday morning, I was fucked on ecstacy, special K, weed, you name it.  I did enough drugs that weekend to kill a small animal.
So your a fatty?  :D
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: rccs on August 28, 2009, 06:17:56 AM
39 hours and it seemed that I was going to die... :-X
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: spinnis on August 28, 2009, 06:19:06 AM
3-4 full days so

70-80 hours, without a problem  :P

Im thinking of breaking the Non drug WR, I thinks its like 5 days or something
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: HTexan on August 28, 2009, 06:20:16 AM
3-4 full days so

70-80 hours, without a problem  :P

Im thinking of breaking the Non drug WR, I thinks its like 5 days or something
druggie, ;D
try that just on dr. pepper. :-\
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: spinnis on August 28, 2009, 06:21:11 AM
druggie, ;D
try that just on dr. pepper. :-\


I think some drugies has stayd or for a fucking week on different shit.

But mine was drug free lol, not even caffeine
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Tapeworm on August 28, 2009, 06:24:43 AM
3 days, 2 nights.  ~ 60 hrs probably.  No drugs, just didn't sleep. 
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: MethodGNA on August 28, 2009, 06:26:36 AM
i have been on binges with adderall where i literally didnt sleep a wink in 4 or 5 days.......also times with other drugs together: G, coke, E, K that we would start partying on friday or saturday night, and not go bed till tuesday or wednesday morning...............wa ste of life, never let yourself get caught up in that lifestyle fellas..........months, whole years go by where you never once stop to enjoy the simple beauties of life..........and you just keep getting older
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: RxBandit on August 28, 2009, 06:27:21 AM
Randy Gardner holds the scientifically documented record for the longest period of time a human being has intentionally gone without sleep not using stimulants of any kind. In 1964—as a 17-year-old high school student in San Diego, California—Gardner stayed awake for 264 hours (eleven days), breaking the previous record of 260 hours held by Tom Rounds of Honolulu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder))
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:28:01 AM
i have been on binges with adderall where i literally didnt sleep a wink in 4 or 5 days.......also times with other drugs together: G, coke, E, K that we would start partying on friday or saturday night, and not go bed till tuesday or wednesday morning...............wa ste of life, never let yourself get caught up in that lifestyle fellas..........months, whole years go by where you never once stop to enjoy the simple beauties of life..........and you just keep getting older

I can't really even handle a cup of coffee without getting shaky as hell.  What would Coke or Meth do to me?  ???
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: spinnis on August 28, 2009, 06:29:25 AM
I can't really even handle a cup of coffee without getting shaky as hell.  What would Coke or Meth do to me?  ???

I can take 500mg caffeine and go to sleep afterwards lol
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: spinnis on August 28, 2009, 06:30:11 AM
Randy Gardner holds the scientifically documented record for the longest period of time a human being has intentionally gone without sleep not using stimulants of any kind. In 1964—as a 17-year-old high school student in San Diego, California—Gardner stayed awake for 264 hours (eleven days), breaking the previous record of 260 hours held by Tom Rounds of Honolulu.

Fuck!  :(
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Tapeworm on August 28, 2009, 06:31:18 AM
Randy Gardner holds the scientifically documented record for the longest period of time a human being has intentionally gone without sleep not using stimulants of any kind. In 1964—as a 17-year-old high school student in San Diego, California—Gardner stayed awake for 264 hours (eleven days), breaking the previous record of 260 hours held by Tom Rounds of Honolulu.

Surprised he didn't just wander out into traffic after 11 days up.  Everything starts getting unreal for me after about 36 hrs.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:32:03 AM
I can take 500mg caffeine and go to sleep afterwards lol

Does that mean I'm a pussy, or you just have super viking genetics?  ???
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: RxBandit on August 28, 2009, 06:32:19 AM
I can take 500mg caffeine valium and go to sleep afterwards lol

fixed.  ;D
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: spinnis on August 28, 2009, 06:32:22 AM
Surprised he didn't just wander out into traffic after 11 days up.  Everything starts getting unreal for me after about 36 hrs.

I got a cold for the first time in like 10 years after my 70+ hours up lol
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: webcake on August 28, 2009, 06:32:25 AM
bout 8 hours
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:33:24 AM
I mean, I had 2 cups of coffee about a half hour ago and my back Is literally vibrating as I move my hands to type or use the mouse.   :-X
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: RxBandit on August 28, 2009, 06:33:46 AM
I got a cold for the first time in like 10 years after my 70+ hours up lol

How long did you sleep after the 70 hours?
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: webcake on August 28, 2009, 06:35:05 AM
I mean, I had 2 cups of coffee about a half hour ago and my back Is literally vibrating as I move my hands to type or use the mouse.   :-X

hahahhaha, little bitch can't handle some coffee...... ;D

I should probably try and cut down on the amount of coffee i drink.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:37:03 AM
hahahhaha, little bitch can't handle some coffee...... ;D

I should probably try and cut down on the amount of coffee i drink.

I bet I could eat more food than you asshole... 
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: jaejonna on August 28, 2009, 06:39:31 AM
this is me at hour 49 hahahah

i was nodding off...
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:41:53 AM
this is me at hour 49 hahahah

i was nodding off...

Are you a Yakuza?  ???
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: jaejonna on August 28, 2009, 06:43:54 AM
Are you a Yakuza?  ???
all the time
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: spinnis on August 28, 2009, 06:44:23 AM
How long did you sleep after the 70 hours?

woke up after 4-5 hours feeling very alert, didn't wanna go  p so early, slept another 5 and woke up tired as usual
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: webcake on August 28, 2009, 06:45:20 AM
I bet I could eat more food than you asshole... 

No way man........i'm a huge Aryan with a huge Aryan appetite.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: CalvinH on August 28, 2009, 06:45:26 AM
Walked outta my hotel room in Vegas on a Friday night and came back Sunday to pack for the airport.didn't sleep till I got on the plane Sunday night.


...drug free.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:45:28 AM
That's what's weird.  If I stay up for a long time, when I go to sleep I only sleep for about 5 hours.  ???
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: wes mantooth on August 28, 2009, 06:46:03 AM
54 hours...in the military. i was young, full of piss and vinegar....i wouldnt be able to pull that shit now
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on August 28, 2009, 06:46:38 AM
No way man........i'm a huge Aryan with a huge Aryan appetite.

I'm proud to know a confident manly man like yourself!
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Tapeworm on August 28, 2009, 06:48:16 AM
woke up after 4-5 hours feeling very alert, didn't wanna go  p so early, slept another 5 and woke up tired as usual

I hate that shit.  I usually sleep like the dead but that happens occasionally.  I always know I should get up but I never do, and then I'm left wondering in the morning if I was just dreaming that I felt alert.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: spinnis on August 28, 2009, 06:50:16 AM
I hate that shit.  I usually sleep like the dead but that happens occasionally.  I always know I should get up but I never do, and then I'm left wondering in the morning if I was just dreaming that I felt alert.

almost happends every morning for me, but when you dont have a job, whats the fucking point in getting up at 8 in the morning with nothing to do
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Tapeworm on August 28, 2009, 06:52:42 AM
You could make some toast.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: spinnis on August 28, 2009, 06:57:03 AM
You could make some toast.


I Eat at 08.00 then I go back to sleep lol..
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Tapeworm on August 28, 2009, 07:03:47 AM
I am green with fucking envy.  >:(
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: ManBearPig... on August 28, 2009, 07:30:31 AM
6 days straight (while running or doing pushups or stair runs every half hour for 5 minutes)  - frat hazing.

ah, the good ole days.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: FREAKgeek on August 28, 2009, 07:48:05 AM
1/3rd of your life is spent unconscious, what a shitty design.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: K-1 on August 28, 2009, 07:49:16 AM
30 + on two separate occasions

- once in military
- once after I took some yohimbe earlier that day
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: The Wizard of Truth on August 28, 2009, 07:52:21 AM
About 40hrs on ephidrene maybe 3yrs back
Never took it again
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: mass 04 on August 28, 2009, 07:55:11 AM
lots of catabolic bros in this thread.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on August 28, 2009, 07:55:21 AM
7 days while I spent time in Guantanamo.  I hate to stay standing while a dog barked at my genitals and soldiers tempted me while parading in thongs.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on August 28, 2009, 07:56:45 AM
Just little over 24 hours... :-\

Correction: I have stayed up for about 36 hours. And slept 16 hours for no apparent reason...
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: mass 04 on August 28, 2009, 07:56:59 AM
7 days while I spent time in Guantanamo.  I hate to stay standing while a dog barked at my genitals and soldiers tempted me while parading in thongs.
are you sure that wasn't the at  Weider office?
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: jaejonna on August 28, 2009, 07:59:38 AM
7 days while I spent time in Guantanamo.  I hate to stay standing while a dog barked at my genitals and soldiers tempted me while parading in thongs.
sounds like heaven on Earth, why'd you go to sleep ?
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: YoungBlood on August 28, 2009, 08:10:04 AM

Mine was 33hrs, and then I slept 17hrs straight without getting up to even take a leak.

In that 33hrs, I wasn't partying, just earning an honest living:

2:30am woke up and went to work delivering product
9:30am finished worked and drove 2hrs to Sacramento, hung out with a friend of mine till it was time to get ready for a music gig
9:30pm I played a show till 1:30am
1:45am drove 2hrs back to Oakland and picked up my truck and made deliveries again
9:30am finished my route up again, dropped my truck off and drove my car back home to fall asleep for 17hrs.

In the time from 8pm, I ingested 2 lo-carb monsters, 2 2x strength diet rockstars, 2 red bulls, and 2 five hour energy drinks.

Considering I'm usually asleep at the 17hr mark, this was pushing it hardcore for me. I'm a lightweight and proud of it.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Mr Nobody on August 28, 2009, 08:14:06 AM
Mine was 33hrs, and then I slept 17hrs straight without getting up to even take a leak.

In that 33hrs, I wasn't partying, just earning an honest living:

2:30am woke up and went to work delivering product
9:30am finished worked and drove 2hrs to Sacramento, hung out with a friend of mine till it was time to get ready for a music gig
9:30pm I played a show till 1:30am
1:45am drove 2hrs back to Oakland and picked up my truck and made deliveries again
9:30am finished my route up again, dropped my truck off and drove my car back home to fall asleep for 17hrs.

In the time from 8pm, I ingested 2 lo-carb monsters, 2 2x strength diet rockstars, 2 red bulls, and 2 five hour energy drinks.

Considering I'm usually asleep at the 17hr mark, this was pushing it hardcore for me. I'm a lightweight and proud of it.
Let me go take a nap that is brutal dude.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: jaejonna on August 28, 2009, 08:15:50 AM
two grams of coke, four pills of Purple Stars, a jar of K, eighth of Haze (wash. heights type) and pack of Marlboro Menthol Lights.....












----------- opps this isnt the 'Whats in your pocket now' Thread
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Prototype on August 28, 2009, 08:17:17 AM
Whenever I stay up all night, the next day in the afternoon I hit the wall hard. Without fail my skin will go really pasty, my eyes go red and my hair feels greasy. I also feel like I'm having trouble with reality, like I'm in an altered state. Then when I finally go to bed I'll sleep for 12 hours straight.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: jaejonna on August 28, 2009, 08:18:18 AM
Whenever I stay up all night, the next day in the afternoon I hit the wall hard. Without fail my skin will go really pasty, my eyes go red and my hair feels greasy. I also feel like I'm having trouble with reality, like I'm in an altered state. Then when I finally go to bed I'll sleep for 12 hours straight.
then you have your boyfriend wake you up, no ?
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: shossy on August 28, 2009, 08:20:20 AM
about 30 hours for me and 16 of it was spent on the telephone  ::)
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: jaejonna on August 28, 2009, 08:21:04 AM
about 30 hours for me and 16 of it was spent on the telephone  ::)
did you come out of the closet shortly after ?
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Prototype on August 28, 2009, 08:25:23 AM
then you have your boyfriend wake you up, no ?

Thanks for the offer but my alarm clock works fine.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: 240 is Back on August 28, 2009, 08:30:14 AM
childbirth.  it was rough.  I was up 30 straight hours.  Standing on that cold floor for hours.  I'm sure the wifey had a rough time too, but I was more concerned about my own going catabolic.  Luckily I still managed to drink my whey every 3 hours.  I'm sure the birth was a wonderful thing, but I was running to the car for my Tiger Shaker cup at the time.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: The Ugly on August 28, 2009, 08:47:11 AM
Mr. Falcon has been up since 1999.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: jaejonna on August 28, 2009, 08:47:49 AM
Thanks for the offer but my alarm clock works fine.
well its going to stay open like my mouth on Halloween when i dress up as a urinal
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Rinc on August 28, 2009, 08:56:49 AM
Not sleeping is catabolic
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: HTexan on August 28, 2009, 09:51:22 AM
1/3rd of your life is spent unconscious, what a shitty design.
or 1/3rd of your life your banging hot chicks as to float around the sky tripping balls.
wild wet dreams FTW ;D
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Samourai Pizzacat on August 28, 2009, 09:56:06 AM
36 or so, love parade in Berlin in 1999.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: JasonH on August 28, 2009, 10:06:26 AM
childbirth.  it was rough.  I was up 30 straight hours.  Standing on that cold floor for hours.  I'm sure the wifey had a rough time too, but I was more concerned about my own going catabolic.  Luckily I still managed to drink my whey every 3 hours.  I'm sure the birth was a wonderful thing, but I was running to the car for my Tiger Shaker cup at the time.

 ;D

Longest I stayed up was back in 2002 when me and the wife were due to catch a plane out from the Maldives to fly back home to the UK. We had to be out the hotel for 10am on day one and then took a four hour boat trip to the main island where the airport was located. Then because the plane wasn't due to fly out until 1am on day two we had to sit around the airport until then. Then we flew to Dubai (UAE, not India) which took four hours, then had to wait in Dubai for a further four hours, then took a plane back to Manchester in the UK which took a further nine hours. Then collected luggage, went through customs, and took a bus to find our car which took a while, then drove for 90 mins back to Birmingham, then finally got in bed.

Approx 37 hours had passed since I'd last been asleep. Fucking nightmare.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Pecs on August 28, 2009, 10:10:47 AM
about 2.5 days= about 60hrs

it was during an army outfield exercise. I doze off for like 10 mins for couple of times when i was proning at my location. Stayed awake most of the time
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: noworries on August 28, 2009, 10:35:43 AM
93 hours back in the early 80's.  I took something called Ionamine (?)  Unreal shit.  I fell asleep after taking this girl on the ride home on the freeway.  Luckily I drove off the side of the freeway but it was the same level and it was all ice plant.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: badlad on August 28, 2009, 01:13:17 PM
I managed 57 hours with no supplements to stay awake - I was working the entire time. A friend of mine who I was working for at the time managed something in the order of 90 hours (again with no pills etc).
I still remember getting a lift back to my house but he couldn't drive that far as he was literally falling asleep at the wheel so we got half way to my house and I got out of the car, he drove off and I 'collapsed' on the grass verge alongside the footpath and fell asleep. Woke up some 10hrs later whilst traffic and pedestrians just drove or walked by. Must have looked like i needed my beauty sleep I guess.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: dyslexic on August 28, 2009, 03:23:15 PM
Maybe you should ask "what's the longest you ever slept?"



I worked a 48 hour shift in dispatch for 1 year straight (Saturdasy and Sundays)- and ran my personal training business during the week.


There were times when I got a little nap here and there, other times I was awake the whole time, week after week, month after month.


Looking back now (mid forties)- it eventually takes it toll on you. The continuous stress kills your adrenal glands. One day your body and mind just say "enough is fucking enough"- and then it shuts down on you.


Anybody there yet?
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: benchmstr on August 28, 2009, 03:32:42 PM
I think I've stayed up about 32 hours max...  ???
Thursday at 2a.m- Monday at 6 a.m

this was during hurricane Ike, i wasn't allowed to go off duty until homeland security said so. i was allowed to sleep but couldn't. as soon as i was released from hurricane duty on Monday my dad came from san marcos, picked me up, and i was put in a Austin hospital for 3 days.

bench
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: windsor88 on August 28, 2009, 05:49:05 PM
Thursday at 2a.m- Monday at 6 a.m

this was during hurricane Ike, i wasn't allowed to go off duty until homeland security said so. i was allowed to sleep but couldn't. as soon as i was released from hurricane duty on Monday my dad came from san marcos, picked me up, and i was put in a Austin hospital for 3 days.

bench

All of that dedication and they let you go like a worthless bitch.  Glad you can stick it to them.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Steelrabbitt on August 28, 2009, 07:04:50 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Effects_of_sleep_deprivation.svg/800px-Effects_of_sleep_deprivation.svg.png)
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: mass 04 on August 28, 2009, 07:14:10 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Effects_of_sleep_deprivation.svg/800px-Effects_of_sleep_deprivation.svg.png)
brutal 12 inch arms
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: Signifying Monkey on August 28, 2009, 07:15:09 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Effects_of_sleep_deprivation.svg/800px-Effects_of_sleep_deprivation.svg.png)

good to see the penis is unaffected
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: benchmstr on August 28, 2009, 11:03:59 PM
All of that dedication and they let you go like a worthless bitch.  Glad you can stick it to them.
the guy who fired me tried to "explain himself" to me at a local bar (he was working security) earlier tonight. i told him "unless the conversation ends with you face down in the parking lot...fuck off.....and make sure my check is on time" ;D

turns out the city is filing charges on him with the DA for felony employment fraud ;D

bench
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: 11venthhour on August 28, 2009, 11:24:51 PM



Looking back now (mid forties)- it eventually takes it toll on you. The continuous stress kills your adrenal glands. One day your body and mind just say "enough is fucking enough"- and then it shuts down on you.


Anybody there yet?

i am pretty much there!

i have worked odd shift and night work on and off for the last 10 years. i regularly wake up friday afternoon and do not go to sleep again until saturday night. then on monday wake up in the morning and i will not go back to bed till tuesday morning. i am trying to get more sleep in but its hard with a young one in the house and my job.

also when i was young and cool i used to stay up for 48 hours on the weekends at least once a month. go out friday night till 8am eat breakfast train legs and then spend the rest of the chasing girls, then party all night again and sleep and watch tv on sundays.

i can't believe some people can remember specific incidences where they did not sleep for 24+ hours, but i am kind of jealous.
Title: Re: How many hours have you stayed up?
Post by: caseyviator on August 29, 2009, 06:21:17 AM
i have been on binges with adderall where i literally didnt sleep a wink in 4 or 5 days.......also times with other drugs together: G, coke, E, K that we would start partying on friday or saturday night, and not go bed till tuesday or wednesday morning...............wa ste of life, never let yourself get caught up in that lifestyle fellas..........months, whole years go by where you never once stop to enjoy the simple beauties of life..........and you just keep getting older

amen to that!!!  dont get caught in it