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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Benny B on September 01, 2009, 10:14:06 AM
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Don’t like the stimulus? Be glad it averted depression
It’s flawed. It’s expensive. But that’s much better than the alternative.
- USA Today Editorial
Our view on jolting the economy: Don’t like the stimulus? Be glad it averted depression
It’s flawed. It’s expensive. But that’s much better than the alternative.
No question about it, Republicans are in a defiant mood when it comes to President Obama's fiscal stimulus.
When the $787 billion in tax cuts and spending initiatives was up for a vote last winter, Republicans took pride that only three of their senators, and none of their House members, joined in. Never mind that the overwhelming consensus among business leaders and economists was that dramatic action was needed to avert a possible depression.
Now with the economy showing some signs of life, many Republicans are calling for cancelling the stimulus' unspent parts. It is, they say, not effective. Or it's too slow take effect. Or it's just not affordable. For a party seeking to rally its base and rediscover its fiscally conservative roots, the position makes some political sense. But as public policy, it's a uniquely bad idea.
To start with, the nightmare scenario that scared first the Bush administration and then its successor into backing massive stimulus appears to have been averted. There is no depression — no bread lines, no bottomless economic collapse, no pending decade of 25% unemployment as happened in the 1930s.
Further, the spending so far, mostly tax cuts, aid to states and extended unemployment benefits, has already had a measurable positive effect. In the first three months of this year, before the stimulus went into effect, jobs were vanishing at a staggering rate of about 691,000 per month. By the second quarter, as federal spending began to surge, job losses were cut to about 422,00 per month. In July, the first month of the third quarter, the number was down to 247,000, with predictions for August's numbers — due out this Friday — in that range as well.
As for what to expect in the future, the recovery is still tentative at best. Many economists predict a "double dip" recession even without a paring back on the stimulus.
Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, the central banker appointed by President Bush and now renominated by Obama, has given no indications he is ready to pull back on the massive stimulus he has deployed to keep lenders lending. If a non-partisan official such as Bernanke, who has the threat of inflation to worry about, is not pulling back, it's hard to see why politicians should.
Most economists express similar sentiments. Typical is Mark Zandi, co-founder of Moody's Economy.com. An adviser to John McCain in last year's presidential race, Zandi said earlier this summer that, if anything, Congress should be thinking about another stimulus package.
Many critics point to the $9 trillion in projected deficits over the next 10 years as reason to pull back. Granted, these are huge numbers. But they are not the result of a one-time spending and tax cut package. The government's budget woes are the result of the staggering sums of cash and tax subsidies that it pours into health care, aggravated by the looming Social Security time bomb. In recent decades, entitlement programs for health care and retirement have come to dominate federal spending, far outstripping the cost of core government functions.
Anyone who really cares about the state of the economy would look for ways to restrain the health care spending over the long run, not pick nits with a stimulus that is providing a vital short term boost. Unfortunately, some on the right advocate doing just the opposite.
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Crickets.
Everybody want to hate on obama, don't nobody wanna see their 401k turned into Charmin.
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wait until inflation hits and unemployment rates keep going up
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at what cost?
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Crickets.
Everybody want to hate on obama, don't nobody wanna see their 401k turned into Charmin.
Ok 240 - how is UE going for you?
We spent trillions of dollars in a short peior of time - of course there is going to be a small bounce.
However, considering the consumption is 70% of GDP, and UE is still increasing, DESPITE EVERYTHING THE GOVT HAS DONE, there is no recovery other smoke and mirrors that the puppet masters get you to believe.
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How did spending 795 billion avert a depression.
Especially since less than 20% of the money has been spent.
Stop the washing machine already.
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Really???? DId it REALLY avert a depression? Do the people at McNewspaper really beleive this? This is the most inempt article they have written in a while. Do the people there really beleieve that we would have gone into a depression without it? Do these people really beleive that a few less bucks withheld from my paycheck is going to allow me to stimulate the economy? Do they think a few public jobs are going to stimulate the economy? I havent even felt that all year. There was nothing stimulative about this bill. There was nothing done at the tax margin that changed behavior.
And if the next jobs report is still in the 200 thousand loss range, how can they even dare say that this is working?
And why are they confusing monetary policy with fiscal policy?
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Really???? DId it REALLY avert a depression? Do the people at McNewspaper really beleive this? This is the most inempt article they have written in a while. Do the people there really beleieve that we would have gone into a depression without it? Do these people really beleive that a few less bucks withheld from my paycheck is going to allow me to stimulate the economy? Do they think a few public jobs are going to stimulate the economy? I havent even felt that all year. There was nothing stimulative about this bill. There was nothing done at the tax margin that changed behavior.
And if the next jobs report is still in the 200 thousand loss range, how can they even dare say that this is working?
And why are they confusing monetary policy with fiscal policy?
Another thing 240 -
Most of the stim money went to propping up state budgets' bloated spending. As far as I can tell sales tax and income tax receipts are stilli falling. What happens when the stim money runs out?
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im glad to see benny post articles like this.
when you have guys on this board posting david frum articles with some conspiracy on how obama had a hand in the releasing the lockerbie bomber, then benny posts an article on how pelosi's stimulus adverted a depression
equal stupidity is good :)
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Ok 240 - how is UE going for you?
it rocks. more time to post.
60% national employment means we have way more quality posters on getbig.
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it rocks. more time to post.
60% national employment means we have way more quality posters on getbig.
Your posts are a shell of what they were two years ago. Haven't been the same Kamali neutered you and Bob put you on the bb.com payroll. RIP 240's balls.
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ouch! sad but true.
on a plus side, the politics board has been very feisty lately.
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ouch! sad but true.
on a plus side, the politics board has been very feisty lately.
Haha, just breaking balls.
It has been feisty lately. Whiners ahoy.
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Your posts are a shell of what they were two years ago. Haven't been the same Kamali neutered you and Bob put you on the bb.com payroll. RIP 240's balls.
Kamali ran a BB show near me in Tarrytown NY a few years ago. In person he looks extremely unhealthy.
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Kamali ran a BB show near me in Tarrytown NY a few years ago. In person he looks extremely unhealthy.
Hell, he looks unhealthy in his pictures. He did manage to take 240's balls with the threat of lawsuits, though. :D
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It was tarp that helped the economy.The stimulous has done NOTHING.Not one job created,not one thing beneficial from it.It was a democratic boondoggle and has been an utter absolute waste of money.The idea that any asshole would say it helped stave off a depression is insane.THEY HAVENT EVEN SPENT OVER A TENTH OF IT IT HASNT DONE A FUCKING THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hell, he looks unhealthy in his pictures. He did manage to take 240's balls with the threat of lawsuits, though. :D
Serious, in person he looks like he is going to burst, not in a good way. He was sweating horribly and just looked awful. It just looked like he was laboring to move around.
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im glad to see benny post articles like this.
when you have guys on this board posting david frum articles with some conspiracy on how obama had a hand in the releasing the lockerbie bomber, then benny posts an article on how pelosi's stimulus adverted a depression
equal stupidity is good :)
8)
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Hell, he looks unhealthy in his pictures. He did manage to take 240's balls with the threat of lawsuits, though. :D
Me & King get along better these days! :D
www.gbnscience.com
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Me & King get along better these days! :D
www.gbnscience.com
Im not kidding, I almost felt bad for the guy as he looked like an animal that belonged in the zoo.
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GREAT VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Notice how the news guy tries to get him off of the issue of Obama so quickly.
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im glad to see benny post articles like this.
when you have guys on this board posting david frum articles with some conspiracy on how obama had a hand in the releasing the lockerbie bomber, then benny posts an article on how pelosi's stimulus adverted a depression
equal stupidity is good :)
Great comedy! ;D
You have soup lines where you live? An economist you (clearly) ain't, brother.
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8)
substantive ::)
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substantive ::)
BENNY:
FORDHAM ROAD AND GRAND CONCOURSE, BRONX, N.Y. FOR A LITTLE CHAT.
WHAT U SAY?
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Great comedy! ;D
You have soup lines where you live? An economist you (clearly) ain't, brother.
keep up the good work benny ;)
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So, spedning 150 billion dollars of the stimulus package averted total depression?
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keep up the good work benny ;)
Anytime you want me to put you in your place, just let me know. ;D
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BENNY:
FORDHAM ROAD AND GRAND CONCOURSE, BRONX, N.Y. FOR A LITTLE CHAT.
WHAT U SAY?
???
You wanna take me out on a date, bro?
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???
You wanna take me out on a date, bro?
Free dinner!
And a nice take on what is going on with the recent "rally". I don't take it as fact, but it makes some sense.
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Delay is not the same as avert. Everything is failing on schedule. :)
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???
You wanna take me out on a date, bro?
Yeah, a date.
Since you took your name from a Carlito's Way charachter, who claimed to be from Da Bronx, I think that will be a fitting place where maybe we can go over a few things.
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Anytime you want me to put you in your place, just let me know. ;D
you should work on your self ownings first, like bumping the same thread every time the dow gains 50 points ;)
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Every Admin. that comes in always has a "special economic plan" that is going to do this or that or save the country or whatever.
The plans aren't special. Tax cuts for the Right and Massive spending for the Left with no cuts (only increases) in Govt. spending. Just go back and take a look, it's all the same. What is different is the state of the U.S. fiscally, monetary wise, debt wise and conflict wise. Also take a look at the Fed Chairmen and all the other people who have been around forever and are still involved.
Cut rates, cut taxes/spend more/ do both/mortgage the future to avert a needed economic correction and create a bigger more destructive bubble that will burst in the future....hopefully when a new Admin. is in charge.
Wash, rinse repeat....until you can't.
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, I think that will be a fitting place where maybe we can go over a few things.
hahahaha you want to fight over getbig posts? lol
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hahahaha you want to fight over getbig posts? lol
You of all people..... >:(
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you should work on your self ownings first, like bumping the same thread every time the dow gains 50 points ;)
Huh? You mean the Dow that's gone up 3000 points since the spring? Despite those who don't know jack shit trying to inform me the world was coming to an end and that the Dow was heading for 4000 even though I am in the industry?
Oh yeah, I enjoy bumping that that thread to rub it in the faces of morons such as yourself, and will continue to do so, Slick. ;)
You must be confusing me with the man in the mirror partner. No self-ownings here among this board of clowns.
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hahahaha you want to fight over getbig posts? lol
haha
I think the lil' fat dude has been butthurt one too many times by yours truly. ;D
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Great comedy! ;D
You have soup lines where you live? An economist you (clearly) ain't, brother.
Food stamps are the new bread lines. We are at a record amount of people using them.
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The Dow is at 9300 today. Thats approx 1300 better, where did you get 3000?
Many economists say the stimulus helped things from getting worse but it has not gotten us out of the recession and certainly hasn't caused the rebound we have seen out of other smaller recessions. Fact is the stimulus probably had a small effect, but certainly not enough to justify the outrageous costs. The other big government solutions and spending are quickly bankrupting us.
Benny, what would you do now with a 12 trillion dollar deficit (and projected spending increases for the next 10 years thanks to President Obama). 3 choices....drastically cut spending, significantly raise taxes, or do nothing and let the debt keep compounding. Please answer.
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hahahaha you want to fight over getbig posts? lol
LOL id probably kick your ass if i ever meet you 240 but id buy you a beer afterwards ;D
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The Dow is at 9300 today. Thats approx 1300 better, where did you get 3000?
Many economists say the stimulus helped things from getting worse but it has not gotten us out of the recession and certainly hasn't caused the rebound we have seen out of other smaller recessions. Fact is the stimulus probably had a small effect, but certainly not enough to justify the outrageous costs. The other big government solutions and spending are quickly bankrupting us.
Benny, what would you do now with a 12 trillion dollar deficit (and projected spending increases for the next 10 years thanks to President Obama). 3 choices....drastically cut spending, significantly raise taxes, or do nothing and let the debt keep compounding. Please answer.
He's talking about the very low of this year. So he's right in that regard.
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haha
I think the lil' fat dude has been butthurt one too many times by yours truly. ;D
I already posted a pic of myself fagboy.
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I already posted a pic of myself fagboy.
"Fagboy?" How will I ever get over that one? ::)
I know you posted your pic my unemployed friend, which is why I know you are a lil' fatty. ;D
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"Fagboy?" How will I ever get over that one? ::)
I know you posted your pic my unemployed friend, which is why I know you are a lil' fatty. ;D
hahah from the guy with not one pic posted? big talk
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Huh? You mean the Dow that's gone up 3000 points since the spring? Despite those who don't know jack shit trying to inform me the world was coming to an end and that the Dow was heading for 4000 even though I am in the industry?
Oh yeah, I enjoy bumping that that thread to rub it in the faces of morons such as yourself, and will continue to do so, Slick. ;)
You must be confusing me with the man in the mirror partner. No self-ownings here among this board of clowns.
the dow is down 200, will you be bumping the thread today ???
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"Fagboy?" How will I ever get over that one? ::)
I know you posted your pic my unemployed friend, which is why I know you are a lil' fatty. ;D
Unemployed? I own two businesses jackass.
BTW - working in the mailroom as you do does not count as being "in the industry".
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LOL id probably kick your ass if i ever meet you 240 but id buy you a beer afterwards ;D
hahah i'd drink the beer, then ask the guy at the bartender for a job application for my uninsured friend :P
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You know whats hysterical about Benny?
She always posts these articles and immediately proceeds to attack anyone who disagrees, not on the subtance or ideas in the article, but on some school girl level since she cant even articulate any ideas of her own.
What a little bitch.
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Ok. The Dow was 8,279 on Obama’s inauguration day. From that day on, Obama held the reigns, he owns it. So, the dow has improved approx 1100. The fact remains, for all the spending we've seen from Obama (which was all supposed to help the economy) we've only seen a small improvement in the market and no improvement in jobs creation (and a reduction in 2nd quarter GDP). But the price we paid was immense.
If the 800 billion dollar stimulus and all the excessive billions for bailouts and budgets were going to get us back to 2007 prosperity, maybe...maybe that would have been worth it in the long term. Certainly not the small improvement we've seen. We are talking about this money like its monopoly money, like its not real. Politicians are not respecting our tax dollars. The headlines should be covered with cries to reduce spending and programs...not from our media these days...
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The Dow is at 9300 today. Thats approx 1300 better, where did you get 3000?
March 9, 2009 : The DOW closed at 6,547.05 Of course there are day-to-day fluctuations...that's how money is made. Overall, the DOW has been around 9500 for the last couple of weeks.
Please know what you are talking about before attempting to converse with me, otherwise I will not acknowledge you.
The performance of my fund portfolio alone is up 16% since July and 30% on the year. How YOU doin'? LOL
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hahah i'd drink the beer, then ask the guy at the bartender for a job application for my uninsured friend :P
LOL actually got offered a job as a door man for a bar in town but turned it down didnt figure that would help me go anywhere and probably just get into alot of fights.
Im not big enough anyway :-[
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Crickets.
Everybody want to hate on obama, don't nobody wanna see their 401k turned into Charmin.
Obama has plenty of tough calls ahead of him.
Lots of unpopular calls needs to be made.
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Unemployed? I own two businesses jackass.
BTW - working in the mailroom as you do does not count as being "in the industry".
"Two businesses", yet you post on getbig ALL DAY, EVERY DAY.
I keep trying to tell you that selling trinkets on ebay doesn't count with me, son. ;D
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hahah from the guy with not one pic posted? big talk
I don't need to post pics of myself here to seek adoration from a bunch of anonymous posters, nor do I see the need to provide you with masturbatory material. ;D
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Benny, I am significantly smarter than you and have the credentials to back it up.
You and I are using 2 different starting points for comparison. The day Obama takes office is the day he is responsible for the country. Again...the Dow has increased from 8,279 to approx 9300-9400 today.
I don't have money in the market right now. Yeah, thanks for acknowledging me...what a pompous f-cking comment.
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I don't need to post pics of myself here to seek adoration from a bunch of anonymous posters, nor do I see the need to provide you with masturbatory material. ;D
typical liberal if ppl disagree ask for proof or make fun they are either gay or racist ;D
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You know whats hysterical about Benny?
She always posts these articles and immediately proceeds to attack anyone who disagrees, not on the subtance or ideas in the article, but on some school girl level since she cant even articulate any ideas of her own.
What a little bitch.
Ha, yet you are the butthurt FAT MIDGET who wants to meet me on a street corner for a date. LOL ;D As though you are worthy of any more time than what I choose to waste on getbig from time to time.
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"Two businesses", yet you post on getbig ALL DAY, EVERY DAY.
I keep trying to tell you that selling trinkets on ebay doesn't count with me, son. ;D
I work on a commission basis and often times an on hold while I post waiting for fools to pick up the phone and most of my stuff is via email.
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Ha, yet you are the butthurt FAT MIDGET who wants to meet me on a street corner for a date. LOL ;D As though you are worthy of any more time than what I choose to waste on getbig from time to time.
What the hell are you talking about?
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I work on a commission basis and often times an on hold while I post waiting for fools to pick up the phone and most of my stuff is via email.
Riiiiiiiight. ::)
What the hell are you talking about?
Just that quickly your dumbass has forgotten your desire to confront me on some street corner?
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Benny, I am significantly smarter than you and have the credentials to back it up.
No you don't, and your desire to make such a claim reeks of insecurity. But if it makes you feel better to make such statements... :-\
You and I are using 2 different starting points for comparison. The day Obama takes office is the day he is responsible for the country. Again...the Dow has increased from 8,279 to approx 9300-9400 today.
Use whatever timeframe you want. The fact remains that the market is up significantly in recent months. I prefer to use when the DOW was at its lowest for the purposes of this discussion, since ALL of the Obama-haters were blaming the president for the collapse to 6500, yet of course give none of the credit to him now. The DOW will be well above 10,000 by year end, by the way. ;)
I don't have money in the market right now. Yeah, thanks for acknowledging me...what a pompous f-cking comment.
Hey, don't hate me because you're broke. After all, you're "smarter than me with the credentials to prove it." :-\
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Riiiiiiiight. ::)
Just that quickly your dumbass has forgotten your desire to confront me on some street corner?
Benny - like i said - any time - Webster Ave., Bronx, N.Y.
Just go back and look at this thread - you have not been able to debate one poster who exposed the nonsense that is the rubbish you post here from MSM puff pieces.
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Hey jerkoff - Shoot is one of the most even leveled and decent posters on getbig.
For you to engage in this trash with him just exposes yourself for the fool you are.
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Benny - like i said - any time - Webster Ave., Bronx, N.Y.
Damn, how easy it is to get dumb asses to resort to wanting a personal confrontation. Calm down tiger, its only the internet. ;D
(http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/internet-tough-guy.thumbnail.png)
Just go back and look at this thread - you have not been able to debate one poster who exposed the nonsense that is the rubbish you post here from MSM puff pieces.
Nobody exposed anything. No one has brought a single substantive argument to this discussion. As usual, you are "exposed" as full of shit and a complete moron.
I post interesting articles written by intelligent people with something to say. I am not required to wade into arguments with dummies. Of course when I do, I always come out on top. ;D
Hey jerkoff - Shoot is one of the most even leveled and decent posters on getbig.
For you to engage in this trash with him just exposes yourself for the fool you are.
I think he a couple of cards short of a full deck myself. But what do I know, he knows he is "infinitely smarter than me with the credentials to back it up." ::)
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Hey jerkoff - Shoot is one of the most even leveled and decent posters on getbig.
For you to engage in this trash with him just exposes yourself for the fool you are.
(http://www.zagura.ro/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/god-kills-kitten-troll.jpg)
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(http://www.zagura.ro/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/god-kills-kitten-troll.jpg)
Yeah, 33334567 is definitely a troll. Nobody could be that stupid.
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Yeah, 33334567 is definitely a troll. Nobody could be that stupid.
(http://67.15.211.3/~sydesjok/pictures/s/shut_the_fuck_up.jpg)
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(http://67.15.211.3/~sydesjok/pictures/s/shut_the_fuck_up.jpg)
Clever pic. Means nothing, since you and your moronic boyfriend cannot do a damn thing to stop me from posting here. ;)
(http://testicles.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/logo-lick-my-balls-large.png)
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_P01np0pfFJo/ShiAJEQ3roI/AAAAAAAAKUI/y4nOPlCyMoc/s400/asshole)
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_P01np0pfFJo/ShiAJEQ3roI/AAAAAAAAKUI/y4nOPlCyMoc/s400/asshole)
That's usually the case when you're a piece of shit. ;D
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So, benny were you in the top 15% of your med school graduating class too? Valedictorian of your college too? Honors program in college with early acceptance into med school? If so, perhaps we are on even ground. (for the others, sorry to have to post this shit as I typically don't list personal achievements but Benny really irritates me at times). I believe Obama's reference point starts when he took office. You can make whatever comparison you want at whatever time, I didn't personally insult you for that.
I'm not rich, nor am I broke...but I have seen too many people get taken in the market so I am waiting right now. Also trying to sell a house (and didn't default on loan payments looking for government assistance!)
I can respectfully disagree with a guy like Decker. He is intelligent and typically presents logic to defend his arguments even though we may see things differently. You and Decker may share some of the same opinions but are on significantly different levels. Benny, you should really look at how you address people on this board, I guess the insults and idiocy spice things up, but is that how you want to be defined?
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That is because Decker, Slapper, Hugo, Straw, will debate with you on the issue.
We may disagree fervently with them, but they will engage in debate.
Benny simply posts and article and then posts attacks to any poster who disagrees with the article and never wengages is a substantive debate on the issue.
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That's usually the case when you're a piece of shit. ;D
Oh god I hope not, you would try to eat me
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Good post Shoot...always well crafted. Benny is much like TA, he thinks he's much smarter then everybody else. Even when TA posts what he claims are original thoughts, just google em and u'll find that somebody posted em on another blog or article. Benny becomes deranged whenever anybody disagree's with the messiah. So Benny, defend ur points...u have several articles posted today, defend the points with ur opinion.
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Good post Shoot...always well crafted. Benny is much like TA, he thinks he's much smarter then everybody else. Even when TA posts what he claims are original thoughts, just google em and u'll find that somebody posted em on another blog or article. Benny becomes deranged whenever anybody disagree's with the messiah. So Benny, defend ur points...u have several articles posted today, defend the points with ur opinion.
i actually like debating the issues with the libs on this board. I understand the name calling and the other goofy crap. thats cool.
However, Benny never has a thought of his own, EVER. He simply posts garbage and runs away like a bitch.
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3333- How can you take someone that has former SNL star Horatio Sanz in their avatar seriously?
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3333- How can you take someone that has former SNL star Horatio Sanz in their avatar seriously?
Ha ha. Benny is probably the only one here I genuinely dont like.
Straw, Hugo, 240, Decker, Slapper. are all good guys even though we disgree.
Benny is just a punk.
GW - check out the other thread about Yuti Brezimov. We are discussing NYC late 80's early 90's/ Those were the days no???
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How did spending 795 billion avert a depression.
Especially since less than 20% of the money has been spent.
Stop the washing machine already.
It gave people confidence to keep spending and investing - and really that is all that needs to happen.
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It gave people confidence to keep spending and investing - and really that is all that needs to happen.
Huh? investing and spending? Incomes are down, consumer spending is down, credit is tight, U.E. is still high and jobs are still being lost. The public doesn't have anymore money to spend and what they have to spend is being saved.
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Huh? investing and spending? Incomes are down, consumer spending is down, credit is tight, U.E. is still high and jobs are still being lost. The public doesn't have anymore money to spend and what they have to spend is being saved.
So why is the economy rebounding? What you are saying doesn't make sense.
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So why is the economy rebounding? What you are saying doesn't make sense.
Its not rebounding. They are playing accounting gimmicks with the banks to mask the true state of things and printing money like there is no tommorow.
UE is going up and tax receipts are going down. How is that a recovery?
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Well i guess only time will tell - mean while you're stuck with the messiah for another 3 and a bit years.
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Well i guess only time will tell - mean while you're stuck with the messiah for another 3 and a bit years.
Ha ha. Nice.
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We haven't seen much of a rebound, small at best, its more that we stopped the downward slide. Look at unemployment and GDP, both still bad. Market is up some, but now we have to worry about possible inflation, tax hikes and a much larger national debt.
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Same here, I like debating most people here except Benny. He's confrontational and disrespectful. Uses threats and insults rather than sound logic.
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We haven't seen much of a rebound, small at best, its more that we stopped the downward slide. Look at unemployment and GDP, both still bad. Market is up some, but now we have to worry about possible inflation, tax hikes and a much larger national debt.
The market achieved its "boost" with a tidal wave of Fed money that is pouring in. I posted a video in another thread that speaks on the massive insider selling that is going on as well, the gentlemen being interviewed (from TrimTabs) saying, I believe rhetorically, that he doesn't know what is keeping the market up if no insiders want to own any stock in their own companies or any other companies....it's the Fed.