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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Benny B on September 02, 2009, 08:03:02 PM
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Private contractors have proven to be highly controversial in Iraq where the security firm formerly known as Blackwater has been banned.
But the US state department has extended a contract with the firm, now known as Xe, indefinitely, just as its contract was due to expire this month.
Iraqis had long complained about incidents involving Blackwater's ground operations, particularly when a shooting by Blackwater guards in Baghdad, the Iraqi capital, in September 2007, left 17 civilians dead.
The deaths further strained relations between Baghdad and Washington and led US prosecutors to bring charges against Blackwater and its founder, Erik Prince.
But sources say the department has agreed to temporarily continue using a subsidiary known as Presidential Airways to provide helicopter transport for embassy employees around Iraq.
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are you ok with this?
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are you ok with this?
Are you asking me? ???
Personally, I don't like the use of private contractors in any major military operation. So no, I am not very happy with this. These "above the law" contractors unfortunately appear to be a necessary evil, unless the military has made it clear that they could do the job those guys do. At least the military has to operate under a level of accountability.
Blackwater's track record is SERIOUSLY fucked up. However, if the next available contractor is not ready to take over, our diplomats do need to be protected. I'm big on protecting State Dept. and embassy workers for a number of reasons.
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Are you asking me? ???
Personally, I don't like the use of private contractors in any major military operation. So no, I am not very happy with this. These "above the law" contractors unfortunately appear to be a necessary evil, unless the military has made it clear that they could do the job those guys do. At least the military has to operate under a level of accountability.
Blackwater's track record is SERIOUSLY fucked up. However, if the next available contractor is not ready to take over, our diplomats do need to be protected. I'm big on protecting State Dept. and embassy workers for a number of reasons.
i agree.
The shit created with blackwater is dangerous.
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pvt contractors are cheaper actually.
you don't have to pay their long-term healthcare costs, like you do with military folks.
Seeing how high healthcare prices have gone up in the last ten years, we might be getting a bargain using these guys.
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pvt contractors are cheaper actually.
you don't have to pay their long-term healthcare costs, like you do with military folks.
Seeing how high healthcare prices have gone up in the last ten years, we might be getting a bargain using these guys.
Whatever healthcare "bargain" we may be getting isn't worth it for the stuff they do. Leaving a legacy of slaughtering innocent civilians with impunity? No thanks.
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I've said it before, and it bears worth repeating: these contractors are lawless profiteers who hide behind our troops while making little of the sacrifice, and much more money, than said troops.
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pvt contractors are cheaper actually.
you don't have to pay their long-term healthcare costs, like you do with military folks.
Seeing how high healthcare prices have gone up in the last ten years, we might be getting a bargain using these guys.
where did you get this? Vets have the VA
It costs the U.S. government a lot more to hire contract employees as security guards in Iraq than to use American troops.
According to data provided to the House panel, the average per-day pay to personnel Blackwater hired was $600. According to the schedule of rates, supplies and services attached to the contract, Blackwater charged Regency $1,075 a day for senior managers, $945 a day for middle managers and $815 a day for operators.
These guys make more than Gen. Petraeus... no joke...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/30/AR2007093001352.html
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The use of mercenary troops is a symptom of decline of culture, and of losing the conflict.
True in Rome, and true of the British in the Revolutionary War...
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The use of mercenary troops is a symptom of decline of culture, and of losing the conflict.
True in Rome, and true of the British in the Revolutionary War...
You have a point...throughout history this seems to be the case. You also forgot to mention why the French foreign legion. (To fight uprisings in their colonies without using French military)
The thing is though...Blackwater(Xe) operators consist of former special forces and U.S. military etc. While we can debate the costs, you can't blame these guys for taking their skills to the highest bidder as what usually happens. A private company will always pay more than the government. 8)
That being said, I find it disturbing that these guys were granted immunity in the first place.
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You have a point...throughout history this seems to be the case. You also forgot to mention why the French foreign legion. (To fight uprisings in their colonies without using French military)
The thing is though...Blackwater(Xe) operators consist of former special forces and U.S. military etc. While we can debate the costs, you can't blame these guys for taking their skills to the highest bidder as what usually happens. A private company will always pay more than the government. 8)
That being said, I find it disturbing that these guys were granted immunity in the first place.
Don't fool yourself, the majority of blackwater ops are not former special forces guys. There are some former military, but if you have ever met any of their employees most are the "I was agent orange in vietnam" types, if you know what I mean. They are/were based here in NC to give the impression that they target the military based here for new employees, but most are just rent-a-cop types who don't know shit about combat ops, which is why they botch so much stuff up. Can't believe they are still even allowed to exist, much less get a new contract.....very sad.
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Don't fool yourself, the majority of blackwater ops are not former special forces guys. There are some former military, but if you have ever met any of their employees most are the "I was agent orange in vietnam" types, if you know what I mean. They are/were based here in NC to give the impression that they target the military based here for new employees, but most are just rent-a-cop types who don't know shit about combat ops, which is why they botch so much stuff up. Can't believe they are still even allowed to exist, much less get a new contract.....very sad.
I know what you mean...I guess we should Google it and find out where the majority of their employees do come from as I'm curious.
They could be just a rent-a-cop ranch!!! The cool thing though that I have looked into is their open courses(for civilians too). They have a shotgun, handgun, and defensive driving schools that anybody can go to(for the right price) they show you room clearing, tactical reloads, how to use different shotgun loads etc. for civilian use in the home. Pretty interesting for anybody wanting some training in self-defense.
Dislclaimer: Yes, I enjoy collecting, shooting, hunting, and competing with my firearms.
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You have a point...throughout history this seems to be the case. You also forgot to mention why the French foreign legion. (To fight uprisings in their colonies without using French military)
The thing is though...Blackwater(Xe) operators consist of former special forces and U.S. military etc. While we can debate the costs, you can't blame these guys for taking their skills to the highest bidder as what usually happens. A private company will always pay more than the government. 8)
That being said, I find it disturbing that these guys were granted immunity in the first place.
If a war is worth it, it should be prosecuted with United States military personnel, and from start to finish take no more than 5 years. After 5 years you lose the support of the population and public opinion goes against it. The five year "attention span" is why the Vietnam War was the way it was. The people who lead the United States in World War II understood this.
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Don't fool yourself, the majority of blackwater ops are not former special forces guys. There are some former military, but if you have ever met any of their employees most are the "I was agent orange in vietnam" types, if you know what I mean. They are/were based here in NC to give the impression that they target the military based here for new employees, but most are just rent-a-cop types who don't know shit about combat ops, which is why they botch so much stuff up. Can't believe they are still even allowed to exist, much less get a new contract.....very sad.
Right. I have a bunch of friends who each served multiple tours in Iraq. They all voiced their large displeasure with Blackwater and other PMC groups. "They did us no favors" was the exact quote from one of them.
The PMC's have no Rules of Engagement, so as one of my friends put it, "they would see movement or think they heard shots and just scream 'movement left!' and lay waste to everything." Which would then throw a huge monkey wrench in the operations the Marines were conducting in the towns and with the people in those areas.
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Right. I have a bunch of friends who each served multiple tours in Iraq. They all voiced their large displeasure with Blackwater and other PMC groups. "They did us no favors" was the exact quote from one of them.
The PMC's have no Rules of Engagement, so as one of my friends put it, "they would see movement or think they heard shots and just scream 'movement left!' and lay waste to everything." Which would then throw a huge monkey wrench in the operations the Marines were conducting in the towns and with the people in those areas.
Come on Gigantor - you know the left will soon love Blackwater when they get the contract to train the Obamacorps' new civilian security defense corps.
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I have no problem with the PMC's, they serve a roll that we don't do. Blackwater has never lost a client. The recent incident that forced the Iraqi's to cancel their country was alot of BS. U need to research it....Yes their cowboys, some anyway but Blackwater doesn't hire rent-a-cops. Some companies do and u guys would be shocked on how many companies there are out there. Those aren't retards guarding State guys. Blackwater is SEAL centric...Triple Canopy is more Army SOF centric. This is a huge business and its not going away anytime soon. I'm trying to keep up with all the books that come out but have read most of them. Its cheaper for the US to hire these guys to do the jobs they do...much for what 240 mentioned. These guys all buy private insurance and once they're out of theater, their medical is turned over to the private sector and not our concern. They eat in our chow halls but thats charged to the PMC as part of the contract. Iraq has limited their ability to work theere but many many companies use these guys. Its a very interesting topic.
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I have no problem with the PMC's, they serve a roll that we don't do. Blackwater has never lost a client. The recent incident that forced the Iraqi's to cancel their country was alot of BS. U need to research it....Yes their cowboys, some anyway but Blackwater doesn't hire rent-a-cops. Some companies do and u guys would be shocked on how many companies there are out there. Those aren't retards guarding State guys. Blackwater is SEAL centric...Triple Canopy is more Army SOF centric. This is a huge business and its not going away anytime soon. I'm trying to keep up with all the books that come out but have read most of them. Its cheaper for the US to hire these guys to do the jobs they do...much for what 240 mentioned. These guys all buy private insurance and once they're out of theater, their medical is turned over to the private sector and not our concern. They eat in our chow halls but thats charged to the PMC as part of the contract. Iraq has limited their ability to work theere but many many companies use these guys. Its a very interesting topic.
for what they're making, they'll be able to buy a good healthplan to last them quite a long time and still have a pile of cash left. I mean really, they make more than generals make. WTF....
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2 guys get their legs blown off. One is a 18-year old private. Other is a 25 year old contracter.
That 18-year old is gonna get 60 years of govt benefits, paychecks, healthcare, etc. The 25-year old doesn't get squat - correct?
For the high risk stuff, I'd rather hire guys who cost a lot less long-term.
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Its not as good as it used to be...the money is there no doubt but we're not talking alot of guys per contract and its not all American contracts. They do pay their own and their famly policies, as well as life insurance. That gets expensive and this isn't job security unless u end up as management. I had a buddy who did State security for 6 months in 03-04. They made 1000 a day for 6 months. They lost 4 guys on their team. U want the big money, u take the big risks.
240 is right.....there aren't alot of 25 year old contractors doing high profile work....u get alot of EX SOF with atleast 10 years in. Many of the companies will hire large groups of ex soldiers like Gurka's or South African army guys. The Brits do this alot. They also go after Latin American SOF. They're generally well trained, usually by the US, have prior combat experience and are disciplined.
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2 guys get their legs blown off. One is a 18-year old private. Other is a 25 year old contracter.
That 18-year old is gonna get 60 years of govt benefits, paychecks, healthcare, etc. The 25-year old doesn't get squat - correct?
For the high risk stuff, I'd rather hire guys who cost a lot less long-term.
I would agree with your senerio if they all came back this way. That's not remotely the case.
this war is probably the most lobsided war casualty/injury wise ever fought.
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Its not as good as it used to be...the money is there no doubt but we're not talking alot of guys per contract and its not all American contracts. They do pay their own and their famly policies, as well as life insurance. That gets expensive and this isn't job security unless u end up as management. I had a buddy who did State security for 6 months in 03-04. They made 1000 a day for 6 months. They lost 4 guys on their team. U want the big money, u take the big risks.
240 is right.....there aren't alot of 25 year old contractors doing high profile work....u get alot of EX SOF with atleast 10 years in. Many of the companies will hire large groups of ex soldiers like Gurka's or South African army guys. The Brits do this alot. They also go after Latin American SOF. They're generally well trained, usually by the US, have prior combat experience and are disciplined.
why not just take the money spent on these guys to up pay for the military and consequently see a jump in recruitment and our military earning what they deserve and the manpower there to do the job.
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The guys we're talking about do a job that we don't do or don't want our SOF doing...thats not their jobs. We could expound on this but for the sake of argument trust me that their roles are different. We just don't have the bodies to do those type of jobs and the skill sets neccesary. U can't create SOF, u grow it. These guys have practical experience that is a needed skill for the roles they fill. If u want to grow the military, I'm all for that but its not that easy. And our SOF guys don't really want to do these jobs.
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The guys we're talking about do a job that we don't do or don't want our SOF doing...thats not their jobs. We could expound on this but for the sake of argument trust me that their roles are different. We just don't have the bodies to do those type of jobs and the skill sets neccesary. U can't create SOF, u grow it. These guys have practical experience that is a needed skill for the roles they fill. If u want to grow the military, I'm all for that but its not that easy. And our SOF guys don't really want to do these jobs.
I think they have a role, don't get me wrong. I just think it's much smaller than they've been doing. They have been doing things which the military could and would have done in the past.
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is there another American war or extended conflict where mercs have played such a large role? Is there one precedent for this?
If you dumped the pay going to these guys into military pay, you would see recruitment go through the roof and you would have the manpower. I personally think they deserve a lot more pay for what they do.
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we're fighting 2 huge occupation wars at once while keeping 800 bases fillled and armed and ready. That takes a lot of men.
In iraq, we've "won" but we still have what, 130k soldiers and 150k support folks? That's 280k people, or .1% of our population I believe? Just in Iraq?
That's friggin huge. Then you have the afghan war and all the other bases. I can see why we're stretched so thin. That's a lot of ppl.
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is there another American war or extended conflict where mercs have played such a large role? Is there one precedent for this?
If you dumped the pay going to these guys into military pay, you would see recruitment go through the roof and you would have the manpower. I personally think they deserve a lot more pay for what they do.
This is a huge increase....In Nam it was like 1 for every 5000 troops....Gulf War...1 for every 1000 and I have no idea what the number is now. That includes all the non trigger pullers who make up the vast majority of contractors.