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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Howard on September 09, 2009, 03:33:18 PM
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I have been an active NPC judge for many years now and was an AAU national judge before that. I was never an IFBB pro judge however,so I don't have personal experience at that level. One myth that remains constant is the idea that BB contests are "fixed" and it is all political, etc.
Think about something for minute. Do you really think that the judges meet in some secret room and come up with some grand conspiracy over who wins/places in a contest?
The majority of contests don't involve $$$$, therefor, what would the incentive be for any judge to fix a contest. Plus, at EVERY contests, the highest and lowest placement is thrown out before the middle scores/placements get avg ( lowest placement wins 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc). To really "fix" a contest, would require some guy /girl to "buy off" the majority of judges. Even pro meets don't involve really big $$ or incentives for a judge to fix the show.
Folks it isn't that big a mystery .
The reason why we often question a judging call is simple. It is due to a lack of consistant, objective judging standards that are recognized and 100% adopted by each and every judge, bodybuilder and fan. The real problem isn't politics but a lack of adherence to consistant, objective rules and standards to judge and run a BB contest by.
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Howard,Howard,Howard! :)
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you have stars?!?!?
prove it.
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Lets ask Chick 8)
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Lets ask Chick 8)
Chick will tell ya the same basic thing. Of course he just a pawn of big $$ BB right? yeah right, geeeesh.
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Ok since we all know the results, we can all move on and avoid the hassle of having the contest.
Thanks for telling us how it all works.
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Ok since we all know the results, we can all move on and avoid the hassle of having the contest.
Thanks for telling us how it all works.
don't hate the player, hate the game ;D
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Like I said, I have direct personal experience with judging at pro events. having said that, I seriously doubt that some elaborate conspiracy like you laid out is why the guys place as they do. hehe
What about at some NPC Mr Podunk where some geek gets 6th out of 7 guys and thinks that judges who don't even know him were all out to screw him over???
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Next you will have us believe that they are Drug Tested and Drug Free.Wake up and smell the coffee.
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Like I said, I have direct personal experience with judging at pro events. having said that, I seriously doubt that some elaborate conspiracy like you laid out is why the guys place as they do. hehe
What about at some NPC Mr Podunk where some geek gets 6th out of 7 guys and thinks that judges who don't even know him were all out to screw him over???
we'll find out in two weeks how close Special Ed's predictions are
I believe the 07 Olympia debacle clearly shows that the Olympia is fixed. The Mr. Olympia contest is nothing but an AMI marketing tool.
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I have stood on stage and could hear the head judge saying to the judges that I Don't win.I was outspoken about the Org so guess who got 2nd that day?Yep me.I tell most people that if they have 7 judges just hope 4 like you.Most BB shows have their Favs fact and if you train in the Promoters Gym big PLUS PLUS PLUS.
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You are right about the judges not being consistent though too. At my first show we were told at the athletes meeting that they were NOT looking for muscle. They said they did NOT want the figure girls out there flexing, they were looking for a softer look (this is before bikini). With that said, me and all but one girl stood up there trying to look softer, not flexing or tightening our legs and arms. There was one girl out there who was though, and guess what, not only did she win the class but she won the over all. The judges picked the hardest and most muscular girl out there. The following show (with all the same judges) I said screw it and stood on stage as hard/tight as I could and guess what type won that show? A girl who looked like she hadn't touched a weight in her life.
Until they come up with a format of exactly what they are looking for in each division instead of "what catches their eye that day" they will always be accused of fixing the shows or being political instead of fair. <shrugs>
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Like I said, I have direct personal experience with judging at pro events.
So we should trust you? We should expect you to be unbiased? ::)
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I agree with most of your post , the problem is bodybuilding is such a self centered sport and when you have everyone fluffing up how great you are and how much better you are it's extremely hard for people to hear they're not the best hence the contest was a fix , I was screwed over , the judges like this guy better , etc
it's very improbable contests are fixed you'd have to pay off a lot of judges in order to do so
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Its always "politics" to those who didnt win.....works better than the inevitable "couldn't be that I just wasnt good enough....naaaaaaah"
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I'm so sick of people calling bbing contests fixed on here... oh yes its drama I suppose... ::) yes Joe Weider chooses the Mr Olympia... ::)
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I'm so sick of people calling bbing contests fixed on here... oh yes its drama I suppose... ::) yes Joe Weider chooses the Mr Olympia... ::)
Got that right...If Joe was picking winners (or anyone lese for that matter)...having 3 guys winning 22 years worth of Olympia's would have to be the dumbest business move of all time...
Haney
Yates
Coleman
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Why would Victor Martinez win the Arnold Classic just days after bad press? Yes, great "business move" ::)
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If contests were fixed Lee Labrada would've be a multiple Mr Olympia winner , he was everything to market , handsome , classic physique , ' attainable ' physique , educated , well spoken , family man , etc
contests aren't fixed excuses are for guys who can't look inward
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Why would Victor Martinez win the Arnold Classic just days after bad press? Yes, great "business move" ::)
You're making my point...it wasnt a great business move, it was the best physique on the stage.
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Got that right...If Joe was picking winners (or anyone lese for that matter)...having 3 guys winning 22 years worth of Olympia's would have to be the dumbest business move of all time...
Haney
Yates
Coleman
why would that be such a dumb business move?
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why would that be such a dumb business move?
Because having the same guy winning year after year after year doesnt do anything for the business of bodybuilding, or selling tickets, etc....if it were set up or pre-determined, then I would hope the PTB could have come up with much smarter results....
Thus the point of contests NOT being fixed....
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why would that be such a dumb business move?
having a contest where the Mr Olympia seems predetermined every year does not gather interest and speculation... whats the topics of discussion? the lower placings, the potential condition of the incumbent(pun intended) etc etc... rather than who is taking the sandow ala 2008,2009 Olympia interest
remember after the 2006 Olympia... the fans where so excited...
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Because having the same guy winning year after year after year doesnt do anything for the business of bodybuilding, or selling tickets, etc....if it were set up or pre-determined, then I would hope the PTB could have come up with much smarter results....
how would having new Mr. Olympia's every year make the sport more profitable?
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I find it amazing that your opinion is that bodybuilding contests are fixed. Come on...
As photographers, we ourselves try to figure out who is the best on stage on that day, and guess what - most of the time, we differ. Yep, sometimes it is very easy to tell, but many times, I have someone in second or third, and someone else has them vice versa, and others have them different.
Bodybuilding is a subjective sport. You don't have a clear cut way. Someone may think that the overall physique is better than just the one who is the most muscular. Someone may like the conditioning on another, while another prefers symmetry. That is why you have a lot of judges per show.
Forget about it. They are not fixed. I have been to a ton of show, and no matter what, whoever comes in second or third or worse, complains about how they should of been higher. We hear it all the time.
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the 2007 Olympia was FIXED. Cutler looked terrible....no, he looked FUCKING terrible, he shouldn't have been in the top 6 after prejudging but somehow he was first.
NOBODY honestly believes he won that show
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how would having new Mr. Olympia's every year make the sport more profitable?
PLEASE tell me you really dont need this explained....
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Howard, I also used to judge AAU events and have judged NPC contests since the very beginning. I never have kept count but I'm sure that I have personally judged over 100 male and female NPC contests and can honestly state without an iota of doubt that each and every one of those contests were judged fairly and squarely.
ANd since I often served at Head Judge, I can also attest that those score sheets were tabulated honestly
I can't honestly state that all NPC events have been unquestionable because I was not at each contest to attest to that fact.
In all my years of BB, I have only personally witnessed two events in which there was outright cheating (or attempt to cheat) on the part of the judges .... AND NEITHER OF THESE EVENTS WERE NPC SANCTIONED.
And each event occured many years before most of you GetBiggers were even born.
Based on my personal experience, I have to agree with both Bob and Howard.
In opposition to SimplyHuge whom I consider to be an extremely honest and trustworthy individual, I'd have to say that the contest in which his brother lost to an unworthy opponent due to his gym affiliatio was a distinct possibility but i'd have to say that it was an exception rather than the rule.
And ..... I have never seen a family member agree with the contest outcome when a family member places less than first.
And just about every event I have participated in ...... the person or persons who don't take the overall claim that it was all political.
On many occasions I too often wonder why so and so beat so and so, but that only occurs when I am seated a short distance behind the judges' 'table or express my opinions based on contest photos or when a good friend of mine doesn't win the overall.
I never have judged an IFBB event and I wanted to offer these remarks based on my personal experience within the NPC so I can't offer any positive remarks regarding IFBB events...... but if such cheating did occur ..... one of those IFBB judges would have complained over the year and none have as far as I'm aware.
(The biggest complaint of all time was the year that Arnold won the "O" in Australia but I wasn't there to see if any cheating was going on.)
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BTW, has anyone here who feels that contest decisions are less than honest - ever really presided as an official judge at a bodybuilding contest?
Do you have any idea how the scores are officially computed?
If you never have participated as an official judge, I strongly suggest that you contact your local NPC Chairman and ask if you can sit in as a test judge in an upcoming contest.
And I strongly suggest that you take this advice if you plan to be competing in the not too distant future.
You'll learn a lot and get an edumakation in the process.
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Heres an article I did last year around this time.....enjoy
Bob servations this month: conspiracy theorists
Flex, Dec, 2008 by Bob Cicherillo
By the time you read this edition of Bobservations, the Olympia will have come and gone, and a champion will have been crowned. No show brings forth opinions from fans like the Olympia does. Not every once in a while, but every year, you'll hear fanciful stories of how the sponsoring supplement company was responsible, how the judges were bought, or how Joe Weider personally selected the winner.
We may as well start holding the event at Area 51, as there are thousands of fans who saw something... but they're not quite sure what it was. Forget that there are 11 judges, and that two high and two low scores are tossed out--someone will swear he saw a judge sitting on the grassy knoll who managed to score three rounds in a matter of 7.5 seconds!
There will be people who believe that the whole thing was set up and staged, or that the contest was never really held and that Photoshop was used in an attempt to fool the fans. Shoot for the moon, I say.
Perhaps the IFBB is behind all of it. Is it possible the athletes' own federation set them up and sabotaged their own show? After all, imploding the stage would only serve to cost the sport fans, integrity and money. Speaking of money, if you fold a $20 bill a certain way, it shows the Twin Towers and the Pentagon ... and ... 9 11=20! Just the thought of it makes me want to dial 911!
Choosing the same champion year after year doesn't seem to bring any suspense to the table or excitement to the rematches. Wouldn't you think that we would have seen different champs winning if things were "set up"? If it was set up for Arnold Schwarzenegger to win in 1969, why was Sergio Oliva the winner? The fix was thought to be in for Lee Haney in 1983, but Samir Bannout stole the night. Speaking of Haney, wasn't he supposed to lose number eight to preserve Arnold's record? After Dorian Yates' run, Flex Wheeler was the heir apparent to the throne, but some guy named Ronnie Coleman showed up. Ronnie won eight himself--and was supposed to win number nine --but Jay Cutler beat him (finally). By the way, wasn't Cutler supposed to beat Coleman in 2001 to create some sort of rematch drama? And wasn't Gunter Schlierkamp supposed to win the Olympia after defeating Coleman at the 2002 Show of Strength?
Why are there so many theories? Why are we so quick to dismiss the obvious: that it was what it was. Is it like when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor... or was that FDR? If President Bush can manage to have Hurricane Katrina wipe out New Orleans, then anything is possible.
Hey, wait a minute. Maybe the Freemasons have a hand in this. After all, they have those cool little triangles hidden all over the place; maybe there are a few concealed in the IFBB crest. Could there be a higher power at work here? Surely the Vatican could have the results written in quatrains and hidden away in such a remote place that only Tom Hanks could hope to find them.
Once the stage is swept and the backdrop is dismantled, I can't wait to see what new theories are born in the wake of the 2008 Mr. Olympia. After all, who doesn't love a good conspiracy theory? To some people, it makes more sense than the truth.
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I think Milos might have a different oppinion to you Chick and Ron.
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I think Milos might have a different oppinion to you Chick and Ron.
And I'm sure the guys who placed behind Milos have one as well....and so on, and so on....
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Got that right...If Joe was picking winners (or anyone lese for that matter)...having 3 guys winning 22 years worth of Olympia's would have to be the dumbest business move of all time...
Haney
Yates
Coleman
I myself could really careless who wins or if they win year after year after year. I JUST WANNA SEE FREAKS!
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And I'm sure the guys who placed behind Milos have one as well....and so on, and so on....
No I was talking about Milos and Mr Chua and corruption in BB.
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Paul Graham interferred with the results in the 1974 Mr Australia. He dismissed my vote after the prejudging so I changed my vote in the evening. Frank Burwash who was head judge assumed the results were the same as the morning so told Paul there had been a tie. Paul then recruited 3 other judges to the original 5 and the contest was rejudged. What happened? This time there was a tie! 4 votes for Ted Matush and 4 for Bill Robertson. Now Paul really had a dilemma. So he announced that audience applause would decide the result. Then Ted, the local champ, received the most applause which is to be expected because his fans were there. Paul announced that this wasn't fair to Bill from Western Australia. So he thought about it and announced that since the judges couldn't decide ALL the other competitors would judge the show! Schoolboys, juniors, novices and masters! Incredibly, the result stayed the same and Ted Matush won. This guy won the show 4 times on the one day.
The reason Paul caused all the commotion was because I had selected Sonny Gloynes first over Ted and Bill. Sonny wore sun glasses and was considered a musclehead. I had Ted second so that should have been accepted as my vote. Nope, this didn't make sense to Paul so he didn't count my vote. We protested with vigour but the guy with the microphone carried the day. Frank Burwash didn't examine the scores at night and when I informed him that I had changed my vote to make sure my vote counted he just shrugged his shoulders. What a total disaster this contest was.
Bill Robertson came back and won the Mr Australia in 1976 I think.
There is no doubt that the 1983 Las Vegas women's show was fixed. Bev Francis deserved to win but was placed 8th. Ben Weider fixed this result.
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Vince you do realize you are ruining your chances of ever winning another show.Now Please Don't mention the 1980 or 81 Olympia.
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Paul Graham interferred with the results in the 1974 Mr Australia. He dismissed my vote after the prejudging so I changed my vote in the evening. Frank Burwash who was head judge assumed the results were the same as the morning so told Paul there had been a tie. Paul then recruited 3 other judges to the original 5 and the contest was rejudged. What happened? This time there was a tie! 4 votes for Ted Matush and 4 for Bill Robertson. Now Paul really had a dilemma. So he announced that audience applause would decide the result. Then Ted, the local champ, received the most applause which is to be expected because his fans were there. Paul announced that this wasn't fair to Bill from Western Australia. So he thought about it and announced that since the judges couldn't decide ALL the other competitors would judge the show! Schoolboys, juniors, novices and masters! Incredibly, the result stayed the same and Ted Matush won. This guy won the show 4 times on the one day.
The reason Paul caused all the commotion was because I had selected Sonny Gloynes first over Ted and Bill. Sonny wore sun glasses and was considered a musclehead. I had Ted second so that should have been accepted as my vote. Nope, this didn't make sense to Paul so he didn't count my vote. We protested with vigour but the guy with the microphone carried the day. Frank Burwash didn't examine the scores at night and when I informed him that I had changed my vote to make sure my vote counted he just shrugged his shoulders. What a total disaster this contest was.
Bill Robertson came back and won the Mr Australia in 1976 I think.
There is no doubt that the 1983 Las Vegas women's show was fixed. Bev Francis deserved to win but was placed 8th. Ben Weider fixed this result.
LOL...Jesus Christ Basile...you were even clueless back in 74....you were the only fool who had your guy in first out of 9 judges....should tell you something right there. Your score was dropped because it was the low score....happens at every show.
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Vince I do like the part about Mr Graham getting the audience to make the decision for the IFBB judges, sounds like a plan.35 years on and still trying to work it out.
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the 2007 Olympia was FIXED. Cutler looked terrible....no, he looked FUCKING terrible, he shouldn't have been in the top 6 after prejudging but somehow he was first. NOBODY honestly believes he won that show
Actually, many people agreed with that decision. And if I remember correctly, six judges voted Cutler in first, and 5 did not. Dorian Yates, who was an IFBB judge that night, had him in third.
I was at the photographers section that even, and I can tell you that half of us had Cutler first overall, and half did not. Simple as that.
Fixed - no way. Once again, that is your opinion, and that is fine, but dont tell me it was fixed.
Paul Graham interferred with the results in the 1974 Mr Australia
1974! 35 years ago, you bring an example. Jeez. And as Chick said, you were the lone judge which did not agree. That is ok. That was your opinion. Some people like apples and others like oranges.
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And I'm sure the guys who placed behind Milos have one as well....and so on, and so on....
What about when you said everytime you were compared to Titus you beat him but at certain shows you weren't even allowed to be compared to him, and thus he beat you?????
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Some people like Chick and others like Rusty.
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What about when you said everytime you were compared to Titus you beat him but at certain shows you weren't even allowed to be compared to him, and thus he beat you?????
What about it?
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1974! 35 years ago, you bring an example. Jeez. And as Chick said, you were the lone judge which did not agree. That is ok. That was your opinion. Some people like apples and others like oranges.
To be fair to Vince, it is Paul Graham ;D.
A few years ago he gave Ivan Sadek a pro card, even though he finished 2nd in the pro qualifier, because he was worried if Ivan didn't come 1st his friends would start a riot. Maybe Messiah can correct me if i'm not correct but i think a few people were upset they didn't enter the show then because only 1 pro card was advertised.
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What about it?
Do you consider that fair judging? Why weren't you compared to him? You were one of the tallest in any lineup and they didn't see you? Your structure should get you noticed over Titus even if you were off and they still put him ahead of you? How can you complain then but now say judging is fair? Do you think i should end every statement with a question mark?
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Do you consider that fair judging? Why weren't you compared to him? You were one of the tallest in any lineup and they didn't see you? Your structure should get you noticed over Titus even if you were off and they still put him ahead of you? How can you complain then but now say it's fair? Do you think i should every statement with a question mark?
No...it was bullshit...thats why I was bitchin, and eventually got it changed. The old regime did a lot of strange things....still doesnt mean the contest was fixed, just that the judging process was skewed...not enough comparisons back then.
I always had a huge problem with calling out 4 guys, comparing them, sending them back, calling out the next 4, etc....tough to place a guy 4th/5th when they never actually stood next to each other for comparison
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What about when you said everytime you were compared to Titus you beat him but at certain shows you weren't even allowed to be compared to him, and thus he beat you?
Titus beat Chick in those shows. Chick wasnt compared, wasnt given the chance to be compared, but Titus was the better overall bodybuilder on that day. Like many competitors, to stand next to someone, especially when they place 5th vs 6th vs 7th is important. This was a complaint in a meeting and it was addressed. In the last 5 years plus, there are a lot more comparisons than there were before.
Some people like Chick and others like Rusty.
Correct. Some people liked Rusty's physique better that day, but many did not. You need to be there in many contests to judge fairly.
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This topic seems to have really got under Ronaldos skin. :o
Or did he get a phone call about his press pass and decided he better help Chick out? ;)
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This topic seems to have really got under Ronaldos skin. :o
Or did he get a phone call about his press pass and decided he better help Chick out? ;)
Bingo
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PLEASE tell me you really dont need this explained....
by your logic since Jay was dethroned by Dexter this years Mr. O should be much more profitable than last years? I guess we will see, I highly doubt it though.
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LOL...Jesus Christ Basile...you were even clueless back in 74....you were the only fool who had your guy in first out of 9 judges....should tell you something right there. Your score was dropped because it was the low score....happens at every show.
No wonder they appointed Chick to represent the athletes. The guy needs to shake his head hard!
There were 5 judges for the contest. No scores were eliminated. I separated the top three so my vote resulted in Ted having 2 firsts and 1 second. Bill had 2 firsts and a third. This isn't rocket science.
The point wasn't what I voted but that Paul wanted Bill to win because his physique was what Paul thought superior.
The NABBA system is superior to the silly IFBB points bullshit. Add up the places and the lowest total wins.
The 1975 Mr Australia was fixed by Paul Graham and Arnold Swartzenegger who were judges. They gave me such low scores that I placed last in my height class. I have a letter from Frank Burwash confirming this. In that contest no scores were thrown out. I warned Frank Burwash that Paul was going to put me low and Frank said he would watch out. Ha, Paul got even for my placing him behind John Kosura in a Mr South Pacific contest. Paul never did win the Mr Australia title.
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Didn't Paul help a guy out who was stealing cars once???
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Highly improbable that all contests are fixed. All it takes is one judge to refuse to go along with it and blow the whole scheme open.
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Not when they can cut his score out.
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Didn't Paul help a guy out who was stealing cars once???
Who hasn't? ::)
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Vince may know the guy I think he had pics taken with him years ago.
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I can't say that each and every IFBB contest is being fixed. However, there are some crystal-clear history examples we all know about and don't need to discuss e.g. 1981 that justify a general suspicion. This is where such threads, conspiracy theories etc. are coming from. So please blame the IFBB.
And Chick, please!!! Arnold of 1969 is not Arnold of 1980. And fixing btw can also be done subtly e.g. by applying the conveniently vague set of judge criteria in favor of the "winner".
Hell, even soccer games in Europe with much more public attention and higher standards than the IFBB could ever dream of were proven to be manipulated. Now I hear people saying here that in the holy "sport" of bodybuilding such incidents would never occur. Quite plausible given that in the holy church of the IFBB Jesus Christ has to wait in front of the door so that the reborn Christians can continue their criminal activities, dealing drugs and doing gay for pay. Please!!
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having 3 guys winning 22 years worth of Olympia's would have to be the dumbest business move of all time...
i have to disagree. It takes a while to brand a guy in the mind of the casual Bbing fan who picks up a mag 2 or 3 times a year, and mags used to run 3 months behind the actual show.
Today, with the web, variety is good. When you have a sport with minimal TV coverage and mags that aren't current, having a safe guy keep the title for 6+ years might not be the worst thing.
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i have to disagree. It takes a while to brand a guy in the mind of the casual Bbing fan who picks up a mag 2 or 3 times a year, and mags used to run 3 months behind the actual show.
Today, with the web, variety is good. When you have a sport with minimal TV coverage and mags that aren't current, having a safe guy keep the title for 6+ years might not be the worst thing.
That is true...if there weren't multiple time winners there wouldn't be legends...
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i have to disagree. It takes a while to brand a guy in the mind of the casual Bbing fan who picks up a mag 2 or 3 times a year, and mags used to run 3 months behind the actual show.
Today, with the web, variety is good. When you have a sport with minimal TV coverage and mags that aren't current, having a safe guy keep the title for 6+ years might not be the worst thing.
exactly.
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This topic seems to have really got under Ronaldos skin. Or did he get a phone call about his press pass and decided he better help Chick out?
I just go to a lot of contests, and pretty much many judges have their own opinions, which is why in each show, people talk about who is first, second, third, etc. What I do like is seeing the individual judges scores, which shows how many people voted for which competitor. When we see them in the NPC level contests, you see the difference in judges opinions. It bothers me when people accuse others of it being fixed just because they didnt like the results. Just this past weekend, an email went out from what I assume (the boyfriend) of a female competitor which came in second instead of first. He said it was pathetic. I was there - the girl clearly came in second in my opinion too, but the guy doesnt want to hear it. Fixed - he screams.
by your logic since Jay was dethroned by Dexter this years Mr. O should be much more profitable than last years? I guess we will see, I highly doubt it though.
I think that since Jay was dethroned last year (which was a surprise to almost everyone), the Mr. Olympia this year is one of the most exciting and anticipated contests in a very long time.
No one knows who will win. Everyone is saying someone else. Even the betting odds in vegas are very low.
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Even the betting odds in vegas are very low.
Could you give a link or something on these odds?
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The year is 1990. how long does it take Met-RX (or whatever company is running the game back then) to deliver a new poster with newly crowned champ Lee Labrada to every GNC store in America? A few months? by the time you get the displays set up, with new "Mr O Lee Lebrada" faces on all the labels, you only have a short time until the 91 show, and Haney cleans his clock again. Now you have a lot of product and posters with an obsolete champ that are still okay on the expiration date, but look outdated to fans.
Dynasties made sense for branding in the low-tech age. Today, they don't.
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Could you give a link or something on these odds?
I don't know where the complete Vegas lines are listed, but you can find Kai's odds of winning the 2009 Olympia listed here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero)
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why are there all these schmoe wanna be photographers taking pictures if the images they capture at the shows are not accurate?
ron, the "you have to have been there" excuse is lame when outcomes are questioned.
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No one knows who will win. Everyone is saying someone else. Even the betting odds in vegas are very low.
Everyone knows who will win, someone with an AMI contract. Kai, Victor and Wolf have ZERO chance of winning.
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4 months before the olympia the flex month title is ''jay vs dex'' with an image of them staring each other down with the sandow in the middle.
Makes you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm :-X
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4 months before the olympia the flex month title is ''jay vs dex'' with an image of them staring each other down with the sandow in the middle.
Makes you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm :-X
or orchestration
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I just go to a lot of contests, and pretty much many judges have their own opinions, which is why in each show, people talk about who is first, second, third, etc. What I do like is seeing the individual judges scores, which shows how many people voted for which competitor. When we see them in the NPC level contests, you see the difference in judges opinions. It bothers me when people accuse others of it being fixed just because they didnt like the results. Just this past weekend, an email went out from what I assume (the boyfriend) of a female competitor which came in second instead of first. He said it was pathetic. I was there - the girl clearly came in second in my opinion too, but the guy doesnt want to hear it. Fixed - he screams.
I think that since Jay was dethroned last year (which was a surprise to almost everyone), the Mr. Olympia this year is one of the most exciting and anticipated contests in a very long time.
No one knows who will win. Everyone is saying someone else. Even the betting odds in vegas are very low.
dex, jay or phil - 09
phil -10
the only guys who will not be disappointed are the ones in vegas since they can walk to the venue. they dont get jacked out of 600-1000 for another BS call.
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Its always "politics" to those who didnt win.....works better than the inevitable "couldn't be that I just wasnt good enough....naaaaaaah"
So Chick let me ask you... were you just not "good enough" to get better then 18th on the Olympia stage? ???
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So Chick let me ask you... were you just not "good enough" to get better then 18th on the Olympia stage? ???
This is a question that will Never be answered.
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RON< to the best of my knowledge, you cannot place a bet on the outcome of any bodybuilding contest in Las Vegas.
Has anything changed since I last inquired at the local Sports Book?
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Check with you local IFBB bookie thay are giving 1000 to 1 Jay at the moment.Good price.
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RON< to the best of my knowledge, you cannot place a bet on the outcome of any bodybuilding contest in Las Vegas.
Has anything changed since I last inquired at the local Sports Book?
it's a show ...like american idol or a gay bar drag show
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'Albert Schmidt' seems to be in the know. I like the way people post here under aliases. When you search the members list you find thousands of people who never post.
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No wonder they appointed Chick to represent the athletes. The guy needs to shake his head hard!
There were 5 judges for the contest. No scores were eliminated. I separated the top three so my vote resulted in Ted having 2 firsts and 1 second. Bill had 2 firsts and a third. This isn't rocket science.
The point wasn't what I voted but that Paul wanted Bill to win because his physique was what Paul thought superior.
The NABBA system is superior to the silly IFBB points bullshit. Add up the places and the lowest total wins.
The 1975 Mr Australia was fixed by Paul Graham and Arnold Swartzenegger who were judges. They gave me such low scores that I placed last in my height class. I have a letter from Frank Burwash confirming this. In that contest no scores were thrown out. I warned Frank Burwash that Paul was going to put me low and Frank said he would watch out. Ha, Paul got even for my placing him behind John Kosura in a Mr South Pacific contest. Paul never did win the Mr Australia title.
Vince you are sounding bitter like Nasser..why do you even care you obviously have given up on bodybuilding , lifting ,being in shape etc give it up old fulla
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The 1975 Mr Australia was fixed by Paul Graham and Arnold Swartzenegger who were judges. They gave me such low scores that I placed last in my height class.
They probably couldn`t stand the fact that you were so obnoxious!!
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Vince you are sounding bitter like Nasser..why do you even care you obviously have given up on bodybuilding , lifting ,being in shape etc give it up old fulla
that coming from a possible porn addict? :)
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that coming from a possible porn addict? :)
Whats that got to do with a fat old wind bag crying over a contest from over 30 years ago? ???
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Whats that got to do with a fat old wind bag crying over a contest from over 30 years ago? ???
maybe it means things haven't changed in 30 years :)
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If the Mr."O" were fixed Shawn would of at least won one title and big Lou would have won the Masters. Both were Weider boys and neither ever won. Maybe at the local level there is some fixing going on but I don't think it's happening at the Pro level.
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I have been an active NPC judge for many years now and was an AAU national judge before that. I was never an IFBB pro judge however,so I don't have personal experience at that level. One myth that remains constant is the idea that BB contests are "fixed" and it is all political, etc.
Think about something for minute. Do you really think that the judges meet in some secret room and come up with some grand conspiracy over who wins/places in a contest?
The majority of contests don't involve $$$$, therefor, what would the incentive be for any judge to fix a contest. Plus, at EVERY contests, the highest and lowest placement is thrown out before the middle scores/placements get avg ( lowest placement wins 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc). To really "fix" a contest, would require some guy /girl to "buy off" the majority of judges. Even pro meets don't involve really big $$ or incentives for a judge to fix the show.
Folks it isn't that big a mystery .
The reason why we often question a judging call is simple. It is due to a lack of consistant, objective judging standards that are recognized and 100% adopted by each and every judge, bodybuilder and fan. The real problem isn't politics but a lack of adherence to consistant, objective rules and standards to judge and run a BB contest by.
You are 100% correct. Thank god somebody knows this. All these in-experienced posters crying "Fixed" shows how little they know, and it shows that they have no respect for the sport.
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If the Mr."O" were fixed Shawn would of at least won one title and big Lou would have won the Masters. Both were Weider boys and neither ever won. Maybe at the local level there is some fixing going on but I don't think it's happening at the Pro level.
maybe louie was being punished for starting his comeback with vince mcmahon's wbf?
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1974! 35 years ago, you bring an example. Jeez. And as Chick said, you were the lone judge which did not agree. That is ok. That was your opinion. Some people like apples and others like oranges.
And some fuck grapefruits!
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You are right about the judges not being consistent though too. At my first show we were told at the athletes meeting that they were NOT looking for muscle. They said they did NOT want the figure girls out there flexing, they were looking for a softer look (this is before bikini). With that said, me and all but one girl stood up there trying to look softer, not flexing or tightening our legs and arms. There was one girl out there who was though, and guess what, not only did she win the class but she won the over all. The judges picked the hardest and most muscular girl out there. The following show (with all the same judges) I said screw it and stood on stage as hard/tight as I could and guess what type won that show? A girl who looked like she hadn't touched a weight in her life.
Until they come up with a format of exactly what they are looking for in each division instead of "what catches their eye that day" they will always be accused of fixing the shows or being political instead of fair. <shrugs>
Despite what the actual standards are , the truth is that the figure is mostly about a fit and HOT looking female.
The bikini is 100% sex appeal...period
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I find it amazing that your opinion is that bodybuilding contests are fixed. Come on...
As photographers, we ourselves try to figure out who is the best on stage on that day, and guess what - most of the time, we differ. Yep, sometimes it is very easy to tell, but many times, I have someone in second or third, and someone else has them vice versa, and others have them different.
Bodybuilding is a subjective sport. You don't have a clear cut way. Someone may think that the overall physique is better than just the one who is the most muscular. Someone may like the conditioning on another, while another prefers symmetry. That is why you have a lot of judges per show.
Forget about it. They are not fixed. I have been to a ton of show, and no matter what, whoever comes in second or third or worse, complains about how they should of been higher. We hear it all the time.
Exactly.
Over the years all of us see picks we don't agree with but can understand why they won/placed as they did.
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Why does Howard have "competitors" underneath his name?
He just looks like some fat nerdy dude who doesn't lift.
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Howard, I also used to judge AAU events and have judged NPC contests since the very beginning. I never have kept count but I'm sure that I have personally judged over 100 male and female NPC contests and can honestly state without an iota of doubt that each and every one of those contests were judged fairly and squarely.
ANd since I often served at Head Judge, I can also attest that those score sheets were tabulated honestly
I can't honestly state that all NPC events have been unquestionable because I was not at each contest to attest to that fact.
In all my years of BB, I have only personally witnessed two events in which there was outright cheating (or attempt to cheat) on the part of the judges .... AND NEITHER OF THESE EVENTS WERE NPC SANCTIONED.
And each event occured many years before most of you GetBiggers were even born.
Based on my personal experience, I have to agree with both Bob and Howard.
In opposition to SimplyHuge whom I consider to be an extremely honest and trustworthy individual, I'd have to say that the contest in which his brother lost to an unworthy opponent due to his gym affiliatio was a distinct possibility but i'd have to say that it was an exception rather than the rule.
And ..... I have never seen a family member agree with the contest outcome when a family member places less than first.
And just about every event I have participated in ...... the person or persons who don't take the overall claim that it was all political.
On many occasions I too often wonder why so and so beat so and so, but that only occurs when I am seated a short distance behind the judges' 'table or express my opinions based on contest photos or when a good friend of mine doesn't win the overall.
I never have judged an IFBB event and I wanted to offer these remarks based on my personal experience within the NPC so I can't offer any positive remarks regarding IFBB events...... but if such cheating did occur ..... one of those IFBB judges would have complained over the year and none have as far as I'm aware.
(The biggest complaint of all time was the year that Arnold won the "O" in Australia but I wasn't there to see if any cheating was going on.)
Exactly! You are 100% correct, it is NOT some grand conspiracy.
the fact is most judges don't even know most the people they judge on stage.
I suspect the IFBB is just more insular and some top pro gets popular and gets some momentum or buzz around them, etc
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He just looks like some fat nerdy dude who doesn't lift.
Why is Ron into Bodybuilding? :D
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Why does Howard have "competitors" underneath his name?
He just looks like some fat nerdy dude who doesn't lift.
LOL, good one ;)
C'mon , I did over 40 contests in my heyday and am planning to compete in the over 50 next summer at the tender age of 51. It only says I competed and will compete, the stars and label don't say I did well or win do they hehe
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LOL, good one ;)
C'mon , I did over 40 contests in my heyday and am planning to compete in the over 50 next summer at the tender age of 51. It only says I competed and will compete, the stars and label don't say I did well or win do they hehe
how's your hair sweatheart? rug or toupee?
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how's your hair sweatheart? rug or toupee?
??? :-\
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LOL, good one ;)
C'mon , I did over 40 contests in my heyday and am planning to compete in the over 50 next summer at the tender age of 51. It only says I competed and will compete, the stars and label don't say I did well or win do they hehe
Haha! Just bustin' your chops a little bit bro.
You seem like a pretty cool dude.
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how's your hair sweatheart? rug or toupee?
I may be a tad chunky as a I try to stay on the diet, but my hair is doing just fine. No rug or anything needed yet.See pic I am blue shirt
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Haha! Just bustin' your chops a little bit bro.
You seem like a pretty cool dude.
Ya gotta take things as they come and roll on :D
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Howie you seem to have a thing for black men , are you a schmoe like Ron?
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Howie you seem to have a thing for black men , are you a schmoe like Ron?
No, unlike Ron I have no restrictions and I go for dogs as well
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No, unlike Ron I have no restrictions and I go for dogs as well
Do you still sniff your GF's farts to see what she had for dinner? :o
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Do you still sniff your GF's farts to see what she had for dinner? :o
NO I sniff her ass because I like it...,next question
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I have been an active NPC judge for many years now and was an AAU national judge before that. I was never an IFBB pro judge however,so I don't have personal experience at that level. One myth that remains constant is the idea that BB contests are "fixed" and it is all political, etc.
Think about something for minute. Do you really think that the judges meet in some secret room and come up with some grand conspiracy over who wins/places in a contest?
The majority of contests don't involve $$$$, therefor, what would the incentive be for any judge to fix a contest. Plus, at EVERY contests, the highest and lowest placement is thrown out before the middle scores/placements get avg ( lowest placement wins 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc). To really "fix" a contest, would require some guy /girl to "buy off" the majority of judges. Even pro meets don't involve really big $$ or incentives for a judge to fix the show.
Folks it isn't that big a mystery .
The reason why we often question a judging call is simple. It is due to a lack of consistant, objective judging standards that are recognized and 100% adopted by each and every judge, bodybuilder and fan. The real problem isn't politics but a lack of adherence to consistant, objective rules and standards to judge and run a BB contest by.
How do explain Arnold winning. And you mention money isn't a big thing. But, the sponsors pay alot of money to the IFBB to sponsor shows. Do you think they would continue to throw money at them for the big contests if their sponsored BB's don't ever win.
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Fixed like an Iranian Nuclear rocket on Tel Aviv
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Most here make the big mistake of thinking in absolutes, that the shows are either fixed or not, while the truth is somewhere in between-various shows aren't fixed, consistent with what is being siad, but then there are the glaring examples where it's quite obvious the fix is in. Weider's no fool, knew that the fix had to be less than overt to allow the olympia to retain any degree of veracity. The truly dense ones here continue to expect overt proof of this when it would never have been allowed...duh!
One thing that has been completely ignored was Weider's penchant for excluding guys who could interfere with his plans-Oliva in '71, Schwarzie winning against no one, Nubret and Oliva in the late 70s when they take turns dominating Columbu and Zane in fair shows (as does Robinson in '78, check the video).
And of course the textbook debacle, the '81 Olympia..lol no one here can refute this even after plenty of effort to do just that. :D
Plenty of the top BBs from the late 70s and early 80s either left the IFBB, avoided the IFBB or retired because of the hijinks. The "sport" was seriously denuded of top talent in the years following Arnold's departure.
Essentially Weider's always felt that finding and sustaining a desirable good spokesman for the "sport" was important, a Haney or Yates in lieu of others as or more physically gifted but lacking in other departments. This was always keeping an eye on future mag and supplement sales, as opposed to enlivening the show with less predictability based on the actual appearance is that day. No Oliva or Nubret in the 70s, Szkalak leaves, Padilla, Mentzer, Robinson, Fox and Callendar get shafted in the placings, etc. but there's no politics...right!
Then there are some of the Yates years, when guys who worked harder and looked better didn't win.
An unofficial and substantive part of the winning criterion is actually the persona of the prospective winners, something like beauty contests though never acknowledged. This isn't mentioned but is clearly part of the equation. This coming straight from the mouth of a previous olympia winner. ;D
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Been very busy lately, which is good, both at work, and with the O coming up.
why are there all these schmoe wanna be photographers taking pictures if the images they capture at the shows are not accurate? ron, the "you have to have been there" excuse is lame when outcomes are questioned.
Most are accurate, BUT, take one picture with someones stomach out, or not in the right pose, and you can manipulate what a person sees. But if you see dozens of the pics, then it is difference. I have had people argue that in the two or three pictures, this guy should never have won and it was fixed. But when I showed him other pics that I took, he saw it differently. Hence, get over it.
Everyone knows who will win, someone with an AMI contract. Kai, Victor and Wolf have ZERO chance of winning.
Bull - no one cares if they have an AMI contract. Again, another quote without any proof whatsoever. If Victor Martinez or Kai Greene are going to be better at the contest, they will win. Simple as that.
4 months before the olympia the flex month title is ''jay vs dex'' with an image of them staring each other down with the sandow in the middle.
Excellent, and on another magazine, they have Victor Martinez. It is called hype!
Why is Ron into Bodybuilding?
Same reason some of you are into football? Or do you football fans like seeing guys bending over all the time... get over it already... jeez. You don't have to be a bodybuilder to be a fan of the sport. Same question for 15 years now.
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Same reason some of you are into football? Or do you football fans like seeing guys bending over all the time... get over it already... jeez. You don't have to be a bodybuilder to be a fan of the sport. Same question for 15 years now.
No way , football is a spectator sport bodybuilding is a cult type activity,two type of people are into it ,ones that train and ones that watch to get there jollies off
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No way , football is a spectator sport bodybuilding is a cult type activity,two type of people are into it ,ones that train and ones that watch to get there jollies off
wow, have fun with bodybuilding...dont be so strict all the sudden
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wow, have fun with bodybuilding...dont be so strict all the sudden
Do you not find it strange that someone who doesnt work out and over eats is interested in looking at guys prance around in a thong and say they are into BB ?
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hon i said it's no stranger...i don't live in the extremity
See im not into the extemity of bodybuilding anymore , the competing ..thats the extreme end..to me eating right and training setting your goals,bettering yourself etc is bodybuilding,but for someone to not even do that yet rush off to watch the extrem end of this activity then compare it to watching football is just weird in my eyes.. ???
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See im not into the extemity of bodybuilding anymore , the competing ..thats the extreme end..to me eating right and training setting your goals,bettering yourself etc is bodybuilding,but for someone to not even do that yet rush off to watch the extrem end of this activity then compare it to watching football is just weird in my eyes.. ???
lighten up, dont be so judgemental
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How do explain Arnold winning. And you mention money isn't a big thing. But, the sponsors pay alot of money to the IFBB to sponsor shows. Do you think they would continue to throw money at them for the big contests if their sponsored BB's don't ever win.
He won the 1980 the same way he won the recall election for GOV of California!
He is Arnold ,and Platz said Arnold just "took over" and got all the buzz when he showed up for the 1980 Olympia.
Plus he still had just enough of his old Olympia physique to pull it off.
I honesly belive that the promoters and sponsers only care about having a big draw event with lots of hype and guys in great shape on stage. I doubt the "who wins factor" is bigger than the bottom line $$$ from ticket sales and media coverage, etc
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Arnold never cashed that cheque.Now that sure helps the promoter.
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Most here make the big mistake of thinking in absolutes, that the shows are either fixed or not, while the truth is somewhere in between-various shows aren't fixed, consistent with what is being siad, but then there are the glaring examples where it's quite obvious the fix is in. Weider's no fool, knew that the fix had to be less than overt to allow the olympia to retain any degree of veracity. The truly dense ones here continue to expect overt proof of this when it would never have been allowed...duh!
One thing that has been completely ignored was Weider's penchant for excluding guys who could interfere with his plans-Oliva in '71, Schwarzie winning against no one, Nubret and Oliva in the late 70s when they take turns dominating Columbu and Zane in fair shows (as does Robinson in '78, check the video).
And of course the textbook debacle, the '81 Olympia..lol no one here can refute this even after plenty of effort to do just that. :D
Plenty of the top BBs from the late 70s and early 80s either left the IFBB, avoided the IFBB or retired because of the hijinks. The "sport" was seriously denuded of top talent in the years following Arnold's departure.
Essentially Weider's always felt that finding and sustaining a desirable good spokesman for the "sport" was important, a Haney or Yates in lieu of others as or more physically gifted but lacking in other departments. This was always keeping an eye on future mag and supplement sales, as opposed to enlivening the show with less predictability based on the actual appearance is that day. No Oliva or Nubret in the 70s, Szkalak leaves, Padilla, Mentzer, Robinson, Fox and Callendar get shafted in the placings, etc. but there's no politics...right!
Then there are some of the Yates years, when guys who worked harder and looked better didn't win.
An unofficial and substantive part of the winning criterion is actually the persona of the prospective winners, something like beauty contests though never acknowledged. This isn't mentioned but is clearly part of the equation. This coming straight from the mouth of a previous olympia winner. ;D
Most here make the big mistake of thinking in absolutes, that the shows are either fixed or not, while the truth is somewhere in between-various shows aren't fixed, consistent with what is being siad, but then there are the glaring examples where it's quite obvious the fix is in. Weider's no fool, knew that the fix had to be less than overt to allow the olympia to retain any degree of veracity. The truly dense ones here continue to expect overt proof of this when it would never have been allowed...duh!
the shows are fixed when your hero doesn't win and when he does the judges get it right , nonsense you can't have it two ways either all contests are fixed or none are
One thing that has been completely ignored was Weider's penchant for excluding guys who could interfere with his plans-Oliva in '71, Schwarzie winning against no one, Nubret and Oliva in the late 70s when they take turns dominating Columbu and Zane in fair shows (as does Robinson in '78, check the video).
Sergio won unopposed in 1968 was this the Weider's handy work? NO according to you this is one of the fair contests , see above ..cake and eat it to
Zane killed Robby and I have seen the videos
And of course the textbook debacle, the '81 Olympia..lol no one here can refute this even after plenty of effort to do just that. :D
Plenty of the top BBs from the late 70s and early 80s either left the IFBB, avoided the IFBB or retired because of the hijinks. The "sport" was seriously denuded of top talent in the years following Arnold's departure.
wow so that must mean contests are fixed , no contests are fixed when the white guy wins and when he loses they get it right , typical pumpster
Essentially Weider's always felt that finding and sustaining a desirable good spokesman for the "sport" was important, a Haney or Yates in lieu of others as or more physically gifted but lacking in other departments. This was always keeping an eye on future mag and supplement sales, as opposed to enlivening the show with less predictability based on the actual appearance is that day. No Oliva or Nubret in the 70s, Szkalak leaves, Padilla, Mentzer, Robinson, Fox and Callendar get shafted in the placings, etc. but there's no politics...right!
Then there are some of the Yates years, when guys who worked harder and looked better didn't win.
An unofficial and substantive part of the winning criterion is actually the persona of the prospective winners, something like beauty contests though never acknowledged. This isn't mentioned but is clearly part of the equation. This coming straight from the mouth of a previous olympia winner.
No one worked harder than Yates that's delusional in of itself ! and if entertaining your belief personality plays a ' substantive ' part in winning , Dorian Yates would have NEVER been Mr Olympia or Ronnie Coleman , never
entertaining this train of thought Lee Labrada would have been the hands down perfect choice , young , handsome , articulate , college educated , family man , aesthetic to appeal to a broad unreached market of the general public , a ' attainable ' physique
to say they chose Dorian Yates over this based on personality and marketability shows just how off the mark you are no way does that make sense in the least especially considering he chastised by Schwarzenegger for not doing enough to promote the sport like he did , your analysis makes no sense from the position you're trying to take.
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Dude thanks for keeping it Positive.
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Do you not find it strange that someone who doesnt work out and over eats is interested in looking at guys prance around in a thong and say they are into BB ?
Honestly, if you dont like the sport, then stop posting here. Simple as that. I admire the determination, the discipline, the training, the overall physique - the muscularity, conditioning, symmtery, vascularity of what it takes. Whereas all you do is admire the posing trunks.
Stop being an idiot - posing trunks are like European swimsuits. If you don't know that a thong is, I suggest you look at some sexy women's swimsuits in some magazines, or some of the bikini and figure girls that we shoot - oh... you are not interested...
Dude - get over it. Learn the meaning of a thong. Learn the meaning of a posing suit. It gets old.
There are fans for every sport - obviously, people go to various events to see their friends, the relatives, someone who got into shape, whether it is in bikini, figure, fitness or bodybuilding.
Obviously, I have various friends, colleages and people are various customers that compete.
Don't be naive and just plain stupid.
A little knowledge and respect might help - and I say it again - If you dont like bodybuilding, whether amateur or professional, then get out of here. Jeez.
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Well said Ron.
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Well said Ron.
Outed.
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Police are in da house.
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This isn't looking good for Will Grant....... :-\
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Honestly, if you dont like the sport, then stop posting here. Simple as that. I admire the determination, the discipline, the training, the overall physique - the muscularity, conditioning, symmtery, vascularity of what it takes. Whereas all you do is admire the posing trunks.
Stop being an idiot - posing trunks are like European swimsuits. If you don't know that a thong is, I suggest you look at some sexy women's swimsuits in some magazines, or some of the bikini and figure girls that we shoot - oh... you are not interested...
Dude - get over it. Learn the meaning of a thong. Learn the meaning of a posing suit. It gets old.
There are fans for every sport - obviously, people go to various events to see their friends, the relatives, someone who got into shape, whether it is in bikini, figure, fitness or bodybuilding.
Obviously, I have various friends, colleages and people are various customers that compete.
Don't be naive and just plain stupid.
A little knowledge and respect might help - and I say it again - If you dont like bodybuilding, whether amateur or professional, then get out of here. Jeez.
I like bodybuilding , I participate in it unlike yourself , thats what I dont understand..
You dont need 20 inch arms or to be shredded like someone on stage just at least workout and follow a good diet but you do none of this , we all have tigt scedules via work and family etc but still make time to train ..
I do respect you and the pics etc you take I just find it odd that someone with no interest in bodybuilding spends so much time hanging around it.
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Well said Ron.
Why are you here ? you sit there bashing this cult left right and centre, your switznegger account is in timeout so dont grease up Rons ass , ::)
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I like bodybuilding , I participate in it unlike yourself , thats what I dont understand..
You dont need 20 inch arms or to be shredded like someone on stage just at least workout and follow a good diet but you do none of this , we all have tigt scedules via work and family etc but still make time to train ..
I do respect you and the pics etc you take I just find it odd that someone with no interest in bodybuilding spends so much time hanging around it.
ha now tell us about your family values LOL
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ha now tell us about your family values LOL
Least Ill be able to have children with a female BDB :D
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Least Ill be able to have children with a female BDB :D
i have two children IDIOT
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Why are you here ? you sit there bashing this cult left right and centre, your switznegger account is in timeout so dont grease up Rons ass , ::)
Don't tell me what to do or when to do it Kid.Now keep it Positive dude.
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i have two children IDIOT
hahaha and now you bite pillows ::)
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Don't tell me what to do or when to do it Kid.Now keep it Positive dude.
just like you are ;D
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=297385.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=297385.0)
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hahaha and now you bite pillows ::)
ah another case of retarded maturation
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ah another case of retarded maturation
You were starting to fall apart with your last post , keep going it was getting humourous.. :D
And yes the contests are indeed fixed , why do the competitors say this them selves? they are right in the mix so see things that others dont..
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You were starting to fall apart with your last post , keep going it was getting humourous.. :D
And yes the contests are indeed fixed , why do the competitors say this them selves? they are right in the mix so see things that others dont..
coming from you? who the fkuc are you?
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coming from you? who the fkuc are you?
Ditto ;D