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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: tonymctones on September 30, 2009, 12:24:11 PM
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What was with all the talk about wanting bi partisanship when nothing the reps have proposed has been passed?
obama says that everyone agrees with 80% of the bill on both sides
but the dems have done nothing but shoot down proposal after proposal by reps and continue to push shit they know reps dont want.
wheres the bi partisanship obama and others said they were looking for?
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dems have done nothing but shoot down proposal after proposal by reps and continue to push shit they know reps dont want.
Quoted for" irony.
"Bipartisanship" doesn't mean "unconditionally going along with the opposing party".
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Quoted for" irony.
"Bipartisanship" doesn't mean "unconditionally going along with the opposing party".
Exactly - F.U.B.O!
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Quoted for" irony.
"Bipartisanship" doesn't mean "unconditionally going along with the opposing party".
agreed it means compromising
what has the left compromised on doggity?
they have shot down every thing proposed by the reps that I know of and still refuse to give up on the things the reps dont want.
Wheres the compromise?
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agreed it means compromising
what has the left compromised on doggity?
they have shot down every thing proposed by the reps that I know of and still refuse to give up on the things the reps dont want.
Wheres the compromise?
Oh, please. The republicans have consistently tacked on ridiculous measures that they know wouldn't have passed. Hatch's abortion amendment was nothing but political grandstanding.
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Oh, please. The republicans have consistently tacked on ridiculous measures that they know wouldn't have passed. Hatch's abortion amendment was nothing but political grandstanding.
Not at all please tell me why hatch's ammendment has no legitmacy?
also why providing stronger language to protect doctors from performing abortions in the case that it becomes funded by tax dollars? which wouldnt be needed if they passed the hatch ammendment
also why providing language that requires government photo id for ppl making claims isnt legitimate?
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oh ya why they continue to push the public option even though they know the reps dont want it?
also what exactly have the dems compromised on in the health care bills?
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Not at all please tell me why hatch's ammendment has no legitmacy?
also why providing stronger language to protect doctors from performing abortions in the case that it becomes funded by tax dollars? which wouldnt be needed if they passed the hatch ammendment
also why providing language that requires government photo id for ppl making claims isnt legitimate?
The government id thing, as you are well aware, is a backdoor way of preventing illegal immigrants to get healthcare. However, the truth of the matter is that there is a pretty sizable percentage of the underclass that don't have state ids.
Hatch's bill was overreaching. It was meant to have an effect beyond current law- he essentially stated that that was its purpose. If you are staunchly anti-abortion, then that works for you. But if you are not, like the majority of democrats aren't , then don't expect that measure to be considered part of a compromise.
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oh ya why they continue to push the public option even though they know the reps dont want it?
also what exactly have the dems compromised on in the health care bills?
The public option was the biggest part of the bill, so of course they will keep pushing it
The second part of this is ridiculous. There have been so many different drafts and proposals- compromise not just with republicans, but among democrats- that , just really.
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The public option was the biggest part of the bill, so of course they will keep pushing it
The second part of this is ridiculous. There have been so many different drafts and proposals- compromise not just with republicans, but among democrats- that , just really.
Al - read my thread about the middle class tax hike I posted today.
The reason the "public option" has gone nowhere is because Obama has boxed himself in with his own lies on the subject.
For such a "brilliant, transformational" person, Obama shot himself in the foot on this by simply telling lies he thought us dumb rabble in middle America would not find out.
The math does not add up.
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Al - read my thread about the middle class tax hike I posted today.
The reason the "public option" has gone nowhere is because Obama has boxed himself in with his own lies on the subject.
For such a "brilliant, transformational" person, Obama shot himself in the foot on this by simply telling lies he thought us dumb rabble in middle America would not find out.
The math does not add up.
The reason the public option has gone nowhere is because big insurance orchestrated one of the most successful scare campaigns in the history of modern American politics.
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The government id thing, as you are well aware, is a backdoor way of preventing illegal immigrants to get healthcare. However, the truth of the matter is that there is a pretty sizable percentage of the underclass that don't have state ids.
Hatch's bill was overreaching. It was meant to have an effect beyond current law- he essentially stated that that was its purpose. If you are staunchly anti-abortion, then that works for you. But if you are not, like the majority of democrats aren't , then don't expect that measure to be considered part of a compromise.
are these id's readily available to them? yes they are, would this help cut down on providing health care to illegal immigrants yes it would...seems very reasonable so why no compromise?
Now the hatch statement I see you point in but it doesnt outlaw abortion simply prohibits tax payer funded abortion. I understand it gets voted on every year but why not put wording in that protects doctors that feel morally obligated to not perform abortions if it becomes legally funded by the govt? I honestly could see a case like that making it to the supreme court so why not just nip it in the bud now?
The public option was the biggest part of the bill, so of course they will keep pushing it
The second part of this is ridiculous. There have been so many different drafts and proposals- compromise not just with republicans, but among democrats- that , just really.
Actually reform is the biggest part of the bill and 80% of that is agreed on...the reps dont want it the dems do yet again no bi partisan compromise, why?
I agree that there likely has been compromise but the dems say there hasnt been so Im curious just name one thing that the dems have compromised on?
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The reason the public option has gone nowhere is because big insurance orchestrated one of the most successful scare campaigns in the history of modern American politics.
LOL please doggity tell us why a public option is necessary to reform our health care system?
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LOL please doggity tell us why a public option is necessary to reform our health care system?
So the government can take over the health care system, gaining more and more control over the population. You are nothing more than a vote to a politician, they could care less about your health.
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The reason the public option has gone nowhere is because big insurance orchestrated one of the most successful scare campaigns in the history of modern American politics.
I guess the CBO was scaring people too in saying the deficits would explode and taxes need to be raised to finance this fiasco?
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are these id's readily available to them? yes they are, would this help cut down on providing health care to illegal immigrants yes it would...seems very reasonable so why no compromise?
Not always. I used to do homeless counseling and acquiring state id was an issue a lot of my clients faced and resolving it was a usually a hassle. It took nearly four months to deal with some of these cases.
On top of that, I don't have any problem with democrats seeing the amendment for what it was, anti-immigrant legislation, and rejecting it. If you do, that's your prerogative which you are entitled to, but
Now the hatch statement I see you point in but it doesnt outlaw abortion simply prohibits tax payer funded abortion. I understand it gets voted on every year but why not put wording in that protects doctors that feel morally obligated to not perform abortions if it becomes legally funded by the govt? I honestly could see a case like that making it to the supreme court so why not just nip it in the bud now?
Actually reform is the biggest part of the bill and 80% of that is agreed on...the reps dont want it the dems do yet again no bi partisan compromise, why?
I agree that there likely has been compromise but the dems say there hasnt been so Im curious just name one thing that the dems have compromised on?
I never said it outlaws abortion, but the wording of the amendment does potentially threaten whether or not cases of rape or life threatening pregnancies will be covered. It also potentially threatens to compromise a potential abortion patients coverage. The language in the bill was sufficient, yet the language Hatch tacked on had the potential to be used as a backdoor for clandestine political motives.
As for compromises, just off the top of my head, Baucus brought a revised bill to the floor a few days ago. It's ridiculous to go over how many compromises have been brought to the table. This entire process has been about compromise.
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LOL please doggity tell us why a public option is necessary to reform our health care system?
Did I say that I thought a public option was necessary? Did I even say that I supported one?
What I did say is that that article, from The Heritage Foundation, no less, was crap. The roadblocks the public option has faced have everything to do with a corporate-backed disinformation campaign.
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I guess the CBO was scaring people too in saying the deficits would explode and taxes need to be raised to finance this fiasco?
No, but their reports didn't contain any tidbits on death panels, rationed health care, or the state raising your kids.
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Now I've seen it all, expecting an American citizen to produce some form of identification proving they are indeed and American citizen is anti-immigration. Where do you come up with this bullshit
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Did I say that I thought a public option was necessary? Did I even say that I supported one?
What I did say is that that article, from The Heritage Foundation, no less, was crap. The roadblocks the public option has faced have everything to do with a corporate-backed disinformation campaign.
No, the CBO has said time and time again that Obamacare is not paid for and must raise taxes to be financed.
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No, but their reports didn't contain any tidbits on death panels, rationed health care, or the state raising your kids.
Thats because they deal mostly with the $ $ $ issues.
4 times now they have shot down all the claims of obamacare regarding the deficits and costs.
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Now I've seen it all, expecting an American citizen to produce some form of identification proving they are indeed and American citizen is anti-immigration. Where do you come up with this bullshit
hahahahahah
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Not always. I used to do homeless counseling and acquiring state id was an issue a lot of my clients faced and resolving it was a usually a hassle. It took nearly four months to deal with some of these cases.
On top of that, I don't have any problem with democrats seeing the amendment for what it was, anti-immigrant legislation, and rejecting it. If you do, that's your prerogative which you are entitled to, but
I dont care it takes 4 months for a small percentage of ppl it will cut down on paying for illegal immigrants and help cut down on fraud...
I never said it outlaws abortion, but the wording of the amendment does potentially threaten whether or not cases of rape or life threatening pregnancies will be covered. It also potentially threatens to compromise a potential abortion patients coverage. The language in the bill was sufficient, yet the language Hatch tacked on had the potential to be used as a backdoor for clandestine political motives.
As for compromises, just off the top of my head, Baucus brought a revised bill to the floor a few days ago. It's ridiculous to go over how many compromises have been brought to the table. This entire process has been about compromise.
Thats fine then guess what you can do compromise and put language that allows for rape or life threatening pregnancy theres no need to dismiss it all together. Youre very quick to call what a spade a spade as long as its not with the dems this is nothing but a move to allow tax payer funded abortions down the road, talk about political moves.
LOL just one doggity i want just one compromise the dems have made?
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Thats because they deal mostly with the $ $ $ issues.
4 times now they have shot down all the claims of obamacare regarding the deficits and costs.
Yet, those CBO reports had nothing to do with any of the astroturfed outrage aimed at the public option. It was primarily due to a scare campaign orchestrated by big insurance.
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Yet, those CBO reports had nothing to do with any of the astroturfed outrage aimed at the public option. It was primarily due to a scare campaign orchestrated by big insurance.
CBO completely undermined the claims of the WH and the Senators know that there is no way to finance this without either a massive middle class tax increase and/or rationing. There are no two ways around it and Obama is on record saying he wont raise taxes and wont sign a bill adding to the deficit.
Hence , he boxed himself in with his own bogus promises and claims.
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I dont care it takes 4 months for a small percentage of ppl it will cut down on paying for illegal immigrants and help cut down on fraud...
Four months could be the difference between life and death.
Even though you laughed at Kazan's statement, you clearly realize this is not about id, you do realize that this is largely about illegal immigration.
Thats fine then guess what you can do compromise and put language that allows for rape or life threatening pregnancy theres no need to dismiss it all together. Youre very quick to call what a spade a spade as long as its not with the dems this is nothing but a move to allow tax payer funded abortions down the road, talk about political moves.
That language was already in the bill. Hatch's wording had the potential to negate it.
LOL just one doggity i want just one compromise the dems have made?
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I listed one, the Baucus revisions. These entire proceedings are about compromise.
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CBO completely undermined the claims of the WH and the Senators know that there is no way to finance this without either a massive middle class tax increase and/or rationing. There are no two ways around it and Obama is on record saying he wont raise taxes and wont sign a bill adding to the deficit.
Hence , he boxed himself in with his own bogus promises and claims.
This is what you posted:
he reason the "public option" has gone nowhere is because Obama has boxed himself in with his own lies on the subject.
For such a "brilliant, transformational" person, Obama shot himself in the foot on this by simply telling lies he thought us dumb rabble in middle America would not find out.
That is not what these people were screaming about.
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Four months could be the difference between life and death.
Even though you laughed at Kazan's statement, you clearly realize this is not about id, you do realize that this is largely about illegal immigration.
That language was already in the bill. Hatch's wording had the potential to negate it.
I listed one, the Baucus revisions. These entire proceedings are about compromise.
If they really wanted to comprimise and get GOP votes:
1. Tort Reform
2. Allow competition accross state lines
3. Tax breaks for people who purchase individually
4. No abortions and no funding for illegals.
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If they really wanted to comprimise and get GOP votes:
1. Tort Reform
2. Allow competition accross state lines
3. Tax breaks for people who purchase individually
4. No abortions and no funding for illegals.
Bipartisanship is stupid.
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I never said it outlaws abortion, but the wording of the amendment does potentially threaten whether or not cases of rape or life threatening pregnancies will be covered. It also potentially threatens to compromise a potential abortion patients coverage. The language in the bill was sufficient, yet the language Hatch tacked on had the potential to be used as a backdoor for clandestine political motives.
I'm calling BULLSHIT on this. Here's the exact wording of Hatch Amendment C14:
"No funds authorized or appropriated under this Mark may be used to pay for any abortion or to cover any part of the costs of any health plan that includes coverage of abortion, except in the case where a woman suffers from a physical disorder, physical injury, or physical illness that would, as certified by a physician, place the woman in danger of death unless an abortion is performed, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself, or unless the pregnancy is the result of an act of rape or incest.
Nothing in this amendment would preclude an insurance issuer from offering a separate, supplemental policy to cover additional abortions. Such a supplemental policy would be funded solely by supplemental premiums paid for by individuals choosing to purchase the policy. "
Did you actually even read the amendment?
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Link for the above amendment: http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1266-Finance-Committee-Rejects-Abortion-Amendment
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I'm calling BULLSHIT on this. Here's the exact wording of Hatch Amendment C14:
"No funds authorized or appropriated under this Mark may be used to pay for any abortion or to cover any part of the costs of any health plan that includes coverage of abortion, except in the case where a woman suffers from a physical disorder, physical injury, or physical illness that would, as certified by a physician, place the woman in danger of death unless an abortion is performed, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself, or unless the pregnancy is the result of an act of rape or incest.
Nothing in this amendment would preclude an insurance issuer from offering a separate, supplemental policy to cover additional abortions. Such a supplemental policy would be funded solely by supplemental premiums paid for by individuals choosing to purchase the policy. "
Did you actually even read the amendment?
That's not the entire amendment. That's the opening description to the amendment.
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That's not the entire amendment. That's the opening description to the amendment.
That is not the opening description to the amendment. The description is the exact wording in the amendment.
Here's C12, C13, and C14. Each is a seperate amendment submitted by Hatch.
http://blog.aul.org/2009/09/30/update-amendments-in-senate-finance-committee-mark-up/
You didn't read shit about the amendment, you just made it up to suit your own.
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Even though you laughed at Kazan's statement, you clearly realize this is not about id, you do realize that this is largely about illegal immigration.
So what there is a reason why the word illegal is in illegal immigration
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By all means Al,
Show me what you're claiming to be the exact language of the bill that justifies your claim that, "the wording of the amendment does potentially threaten whether or not cases of rape or life threatening pregnancies will be covered."
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Hell Al,
I'll lower the bar. Why don't you provide a link to an analysis, article, clip, summation, or homeless guy ranting on YouTube that supports your claim that, "the wording of the amendment does potentially threaten whether or not cases of rape or life threatening pregnancies will be covered."
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Bipartisanship is stupid.
Ok fine. If that is your attitude and said attitute is shared by the dems and WHy, then be prepared for failure, and nothing passed whatsoever.
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Hell Al,
I'll lower the bar. Why don't you provide a link to an analysis, article, clip, summation, or homeless guy ranting on YouTube that supports your claim that, "the wording of the amendment does potentially threaten whether or not cases of rape or life threatening pregnancies will be covered."
I never claimed to be an expert on the bill.I read some articles on it and got that part wrong. Quite frankly, I wasn't all that interested in it.
But the rest of that post is accurate. There is controversy over how that amendment would have affected certain patients' coverage. There was already sufficient language in the bill to cover no funds for federal abortions.
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So what there is a reason why the word illegal is in illegal immigration
so don't complain about democratic compromise when you try to tack an unrelated point from your agenda onto a separate bill.Just as you see nothing wrong with trying to push anti-illegal immigrant legistlation through on the back of a health care bill, I see nothing wrong with keeping a measured watch over abortion regulations in the same bill.
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so don't complain about democratic compromise when you try to tack an unrelated point from your agenda onto a separate bill.Just as you see nothing wrong with trying to push anti-illegal immigrant legistlation through on the back of a health care bill, I see nothing wrong with keeping a measured watch over abortion regulations in the same bill.
Where else are they going to put a stipulation to stop illegal immigrants from getting health care benefits ( tax payer funded) than in the healthcare bill?
Being and American and living in America is priviledge not a right for every illegal that wants to jump the border
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Where else are they going to put a stipulation to stop illegal immigrants from getting health care benefits ( tax payer funded) than in the healthcare bill?
Being and American and living in America is priviledge not a right for every illegal that wants to jump the border
Most illegal immigrants pay taxes. It's more beneficial to almost all concerned parties to provide health care to them when necessary. Defeating that amendment was a good decision.
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Most illegal immigrants pay taxes. It's more beneficial to almost all concerned parties to provide health care to them when necessary. Defeating that amendment was a good decision.
im so tired of this worn out arguement, tourists from other countries pay about the same taxes should we give them free health care too?
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im so tired of this worn out arguement, tourists from other countries pay about the same taxes should we give them free health care too?
I'm not talking about a sales tax. Most illegal immigrants use fake social security numbers to get employment in the legitimate sector. They pay payroll taxes and contribute to social security to the tune of billions a year, but aren't eligible to take anything out,
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I'm not talking about a sales tax. Most illegal immigrants use fake social security numbers to get employment in the legitimate sector. They pay payroll taxes and contribute to social security to the tune of billions a year, but aren't eligible to take anything out,
Nor should they considering the huge costs they are whether it be on the ER's under EMTALA, workers comp., state programs, materntiy wards, jails, crime, etc.
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Nor should they considering the huge costs they are whether it be on the ER's under EMTALA, workers comp., state programs, materntiy wards, jails, crime, etc.
Read the three posts before the one you posted.
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Read the three posts before the one you posted.
I did, how about we jail the employers, cut off the anchor baby situation like Canada did, deport all illegals convicted or pleading guilty to felonies, deport all DWI illegals convicted of DWI, end payments to illegals for public housing and WIC, Section 8, etc?
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I'm not talking about a sales tax. Most illegal immigrants use fake social security numbers to get employment in the legitimate sector. They pay payroll taxes and contribute to social security to the tune of billions a year, but aren't eligible to take anything out,
Well this has to be at the top of stupid liberal logic. They contribute to social security by COMMITTING A CRIME and as such they should be rewarded for it. Makes perfect sense. ::) We'll put that up there with burglars entering a home and the suing the homeowner when they get hurt.
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I'm not talking about a sales tax. Most illegal immigrants use fake social security numbers to get employment in the legitimate sector. They pay payroll taxes and contribute to social security to the tune of billions a year, but aren't eligible to take anything out,
Again so what, they are in the US ILLEGALLY, my answer to that is tuff shit, you want to be able to take money out become a citizen. Not to mention that using a fake SS# is also illegal, so lets reward that ::)
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Again so what, they are in the US ILLEGALLY, my answer to that is tuff shit, you want to be able to take money out become a citizens
How about this for a novel idea: Lets shut down all US bases on foreign soil.
Move those troops to the Mexico border and around airports and coastal areas.
Save money while raising security at home. Why should USA have to pay for the safety of other nations?
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How about this for a novel idea: Lets shut down all US bases on foreign soil.
Move those troops to the Mexico border and around airports and coastal areas.
Save money while raising security at home. Why should USA have to pay for the safety of other nations?
I'm all for it, but it will never happen because the US has made half the world dependant on our ability to protect them.
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Well this has to be at the top of stupid liberal logic. They contribute to social security by COMMITTING A CRIME and as such they should be rewarded for it. Makes perfect sense. ::) We'll put that up there with burglars entering a home and the suing the homeowner when they get hurt.
hahahahah
^THIS^ hahahhahaahahah
also most illegals get paid in cash they dont have fake SS numbers lol
doggity I live in houston and worked in CONSTRUCTION no less im sure i have more first hand knowledge of this then you...
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How about this for a novel idea: Lets shut down all US bases on foreign soil.
Move those troops to the Mexico border and around airports and coastal areas.
Save money while raising security at home. Why should USA have to pay for the safety of other nations?
heres an even better idea hedge how about we quit giving free health care to them? they would probably stop coming over and we wouldnt have to lend one more man to the borders...
some times the best solutions are sitting right there in front of your face...
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Well this has to be at the top of stupid liberal logic. They contribute to social security by COMMITTING A CRIME and as such they should be rewarded for it. Makes perfect sense. ::) We'll put that up there with burglars entering a home and the suing the homeowner when they get hurt.
::) The two things are not even comparable. The silent underclass buoys the economy. In the last twenty years, budget projections have always included the money illegals would not be taking out of the system. Remember how Bush's immigration reform policies were unappealing to both the right and the left? Realistically, no White House, conservative or liberal, would want to get any immigration refrom pushed through.With the status quo, illegals are actually profitable for the country. In any reform scenario, the country plunges into a budget crisis.
That being said, beyond being ethical, it is smart policy and in the country's best interest to keep them healthy and turn a blind eye.
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also most illegals get paid in cash they dont have fake SS numbers lol
doggity I live in houston and worked in CONSTRUCTION no less im sure i have more first hand knowledge of this then you...
This is not accurate.
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This is not accurate.
Yes it is. Cut the crap al, many of know better first hand. They work for cash to send hime "to their country", while they live like nomads here. Many live in flophouses and completey destry of neighborhood because of their lifestyles.
Anywhere there is a huige influx of illegals almost almost accompanies an increase in crime, DWI, slums, blight, etc.
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Yes it is. Cut the crap al, many of know better first hand. They work for cash to send hime "to their country", while they live like nomads here. Many live in flophouses and completey destry of neighborhood because of their lifestyles.
Anywhere there is a huige influx of illegals almost almost accompanies an increase in crime, DWI, slums, blight, etc.
No, it's not accurate. Of course there are many illegals who work off the books, but the majority don't. Those attached jpegs don't change that. These blurbs have a lot of holes I'd like to fill in, but due to time constraints that will have to wait.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/business/19illegals.html
More than half of the estimated seven million immigrants toiling illegally in the United States get a regular paycheck every week or two, experts say. At the end of the year they receive a W-2 form. Come April 15, many file income tax returns using special ID numbers issued by the Internal Revenue Service so foreigners can pay taxes. Some even get a refund check in the mail.
As for crime,
http://immigrationimpact.com/2009/07/10/large-immigrant-populations-keep-cities-safe-just-ask-el-paso-tx/
http://reason.com/blog/2009/07/12/more-on-immigration-and-crime
According to a 2008 report from the conservative Americas Majority Foundation, crime rates are lowest in states with the highest immigration growth rates. From 1999 to 2006, the total crime rate declined 13.6 percent in the 19 highest-immigration states, compared to a 7.1 percent decline in the other 32 states. In 2006, the 10 “high influx” states—those with the most dramatic, recent increases in immigration—had the lowest rates of violent crime and total crime.
Crime generally comes from the poorest segment of society, so of course there are illegal immigrants who are criminals. However, the idea that the population is a crimewave epidemic is a myth.