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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Wrestling Board => Topic started by: mass 04 on September 30, 2009, 07:55:05 PM
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Who do you prefer and why?
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I think most already know the answer for me.
Flair by a country mile. I grew up watching Flair, even going to local HS gyms to see him in the Mid-Atlantic area...I was pretty young, but still the best wrestling memories for me.
To me he is the standard by which all wrestlers should be measured. Excellent in ring, excellent on the mic, willing to put others over and did it all with probably the most grueling schedule of any wrestler ever.
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I choose Hogan because in that epic battle of good versus bad, Flair being the hardcore heel and Hogan being the 80's face. It would have been a sick fued ending with Hogan winning the battle in a cage.
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To me he is the standard by which all wrestlers should be measured. Excellent in ring, excellent on the mic, willing to put others over and did it all with probably the most grueling schedule of any wrestler ever.
That pretty much sums it up. No one has done more for the sport of wrestling over the years. Hogan did well for HOGAN and his little group of loosers but over than that I'd say it would be hard pressed to find someone Hogan helped over the years.
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Flair is the man and will always be the man. I love his dvd's and always watch them. But what everyone forgets is that Hogan made wrestling what it is today. Hogan is the one who put wrestling on the map. You mention Hulk Hogan's name to anyone and everyone knows who he is including people who don't watch. I'm talking the eighties Hogan who the crowd adored. Not the washed up Hogan trying to tour or the disfunctional family Hogan.
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I don't think they can be compared. Hogan would beat Flair everyday of the week and twice on Sunday if they Wrestled. My opinion is that Flair will always be living in Hulksters shadow. I love Flair. But Hulkamania is immortal.
Seriously? Flair was/is a solid wrestler. Hogan has like four moves, the big boot, the leg drop, the finger shake, and "hulking up". Hogan had a good body and the fans loved him. Take that away and he would be wrestling at your local indy show.
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Flair is the man and will always be the man. I love his dvd's and always watch them. But what everyone forgets is that Hogan made wrestling what it is today. Hogan is the one who put wrestling on the map. You mention Hulk Hogan's name to anyone and everyone knows who he is including people who don't watch. I'm talking the eighties Hogan who the crowd adored. Not the washed up Hogan trying to tour or the disfunctional family Hogan.
I agree. And since I hate what it has become, that just makes me even more of a Flair guy.
Hogan is responsible for larger paychecks, but Vince has to be given credit for that as well.
How about this?.......Flair is the greatest wrestler of all-time. Hogan is the greatest sports entertainer of all-time.
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All around greatest wrestler ever? You sure it's Flair and not HBK? Shawn is the most complete wrestler ever. Only missing a submission move. After defeating Bret he should have kept the sharp shooter as his submission move. He's a high flyer. Best bump man second only to Foley. Can manipulate the crowd like no other as both heel and face. Has been in the most historic and ground breaking matches ever. He has held every single title known to man. Started at the very bottom and became one of the biggest superstars ever. Came back better then ever after a career ending injury. You could put him in any wrestling era and he would be a star. He's Mr. Wrestlemania. Plus I'd bet anything if he went to WCW like all those other guys. He would have soared! Although no one on planet Earth could have beat Hogan at Mania three. I'd say Flair is definitely a better wrestler then Hulkster. But no way Flair is better the Shawn. We all have a spot in our hearts for the Nature Boy. But lets call it like it is. Boy Toy is the best.
(http://www.hoffco-inc.com/wwe/thist/wwe/wrld-michaels01st-1.jpg)
I love Michaels. I would even put him a notch up on Flair for in-ring, but Flair killed him on the mic, which is certainly part of the equation. Especially in the days with territories when a wrestler didn't have the exposure and had to "talk a good game" to get people interested who maybe had never seen him wrestler. As for coming back from an injury, Flair was in a horrific plane crash early in his career and overcome it.
I guess when I talk about greatest wrestler ever, I mean all-around. There are many arguments as to better in-ring, but when it's all taken into account I give Flair the nod.
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I have to vote hogan.
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I have to vote hogan.
Contractual obligation. ;D
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I voted Hogan, but they are very close. Wrestling ability wise, Flair is the winner although i think Hogan was underrated. Both had a good look Hogan was larger than life but Flair with the hair, robes, etc lived the character. I'd give Flair the edge on the mic, his promos in the 80's are timeless, Hogans promos were okay but a lot of them were too goofy. Flair is great but Hogan is pro wrestling in America. The first cross over star, an incredible draw. Hogan brought an energy that Flair can't duplicate.
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I've stuck in another vote for Hogan.
What I liked about Flair was that he was all about the business. Like others have said, he was fantastic in the ring and on the mic, he had charisma, and he could always tell a story. He stayed and wrestled, arguably past his best, because he loved doing it. And the send-off he got on RAW when he retired will never be repeated (except maybe for HHH :-\).
The difference with Hogan is that he became bigger than wrestling, he transcended into an international star, and brought a whole new audience to the WWF. He had the personality and the charisma to make people want to watch him, whether in the ring, on TV, in films, etc. Vince struck gold with Hogan, and it made WWF the biggest company in the business. As much as I like Flair, he just didn't have that impact.
And this:
Flair is the greatest wrestler of all-time. Hogan is the greatest sports entertainer of all-time.
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I've stuck in another vote for Hogan.
What I liked about Flair was that he was all about the business. Like others have said, he was fantastic in the ring and on the mic, he had charisma, and he could always tell a story. He stayed and wrestled, arguably past his best, because he loved doing it. And the send-off he got on RAW when he retired will never be repeated (except maybe for HHH :-\).
The difference with Hogan is that he became bigger than wrestling, he transcended into an international star, and brought a whole new audience to the WWF. He had the personality and the charisma to make people want to watch him, whether in the ring, on TV, in films, etc. Vince struck gold with Hogan, and it made WWF the biggest company in the business. As much as I like Flair, he just didn't have that impact.
And this:
X2
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In ring yeah Micheals gets the nod over Flair. I could probably come up with more guys who were a better in ring performer. But like has been said above being the best of all time is not only about in ring because lets face it, thats not what its all about. Its about mic skills, staying on top, staying over with the fans or drawing heat, helping the sport. Flair brings so much to the table. Yeah Micheals is good, but years from now when people are still Whoooooing when someone does a chop in the corner Micheals won't be thought of.
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Hogan was / is wrestling. He drew more numbers back in the day right up into his HOF cerimony. He was on the cover of sports illustrated, 10 min standing ovations and selling out arenas night after night while all these "Johnny come lately's" where at home breast feeding. It didn't matter that he had "x" amount of moves in his repitiore. Fans LOVED him and paid top dollar to watch him main event against the local heel at the time. Look at WWE's top star John Cena. John Cena makes 1,700,000 dollars per year wrestling alone and yet he can't wrestle for shit but he can draw. That's the main thing.
Flair was totally amazing. The only reason why flair wasn't as popular as Hogan is because he wasn't marketed properly by JCP (Jim Crockett Promotions / NWA). He was a phenomenal wrestler and he wrestled every single top dog of every territory all over the world defeating that person. His ring promos to this day still take the cake. He drew all kinds for JCP at that time and made himself and alot of people around him very rich. Hogan had one thing that Flair didn't. Vince McMahon...and Flair admitted this himself on the Horseman DVD.
Shawn Michaels??? How did he get into this comparison?? Hogan is a Ferrari. Flair is a Lamborghini. Michael's is a suped up Mustang. Get my point? Comparing Michaels to Hogan & Flair is like comparing a diamond (Hogan & Flair) to horse manuer (Michaels). Seriously now :-\. Althopugh he is argubly the best entertainer, he is also a heat score backstage. He never took orders, never listened, when he had to job ot other stars he flat out refused and he was known to throw tantrums back stage :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(.
All of a sudden he finds God and now. Please. Hogan & Flair would have 16,000 - 18,000 sellouts even at house shows. I went to one house show here in Toronto back in 1996 when Michaels was champion and a mere 6,000 people showed up to the arena and Toronto is a huge sports city especially for wrestling. Yes, Michaels is a great entertainer, he's put 100% in every one of his matches, is innovative in the ring, a great wrestler and the showstopper, but sorry folks, he's no Hogan or Flair.
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Good points Playboy. Like I've said, I think HBK is a better in-ring performer than Flair, and certainly Hogan, but he isn't equal to either of them in terms of career accomplishments, etc... My favorite times of HBK are the early days of DX with him, HHH and Chyna.
One thought on Hogan. His "character" was so reliant on always having to win/be invincible that I actually think it hurt his standing with hardcore wrestling fans over the years. He very, very rarely jobbed, where Flair had no problem with it. Partly because it didn't matter to Flairs "character." He would just come out and say the other wrestler was better on that night, etc.... Hogan, in some ways, was a victim of his/Vince's character. He obviously had the chops to make some good heel runs (his early AWA work was great) , but wasn't "allowed" to.
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Good points Playboy. Like I've said, I think HBK is a better in-ring performer than Flair, and certainly Hogan, but he isn't equal to either of them in terms of career accomplishments, etc... My favorite times of HBK are the early days of DX with him, HHH and Chyna.
One thought on Hogan. His "character" was so reliant on always having to win/be invincible that I actually think it hurt his standing with hardcore wrestling fans over the years. He very, very rarely jobbed, where Flair had no problem with it. Partly because it didn't matter to Flairs "character." He would just come out and say the other wrestler was better on that night, etc.... Hogan, in some ways, was a victim of his/Vince's character. He obviously had the chops to make some good heel runs (his early AWA work was great) , but wasn't "allowed" to.
Very true Showstopper. Personally, I loved the eighties wrestling. Mind you it was a different time. It was a good guy versus bad guy with mr. right usually coming out on top. But people loved that. Back then, to make Hogan lose was unheard of as he was the mega baby face hero. Look at what it attracted. 93,173 people at the pontiac silver dome for Hogan versus Andre at WM3. But it finally happened on feb 5th 1988 when the two twin Hebner refs screwed him over with Ted DiBiase & Andre. The only time I remember Flair jobbing was to lose the world title to another star such as Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes & Ricky Steamboat but he would win it back shortly after.
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HBK has more career accomplishments then both Hogan and Flair combined. HBK RETIRED FLAIR! No one has had a career that even comes close to Shawn.
Ha ha ha ha ha ;D Talk about information, mis-information, mis-interpretation.
How do you figure? Hogan has been wrestling since the mid seventies, all over the world and won more titles then you can shake a stick at. Hogan put wrestling on the map while HBK was at home being breast fed.
Flair has been wrestling since 1970, all over the world, has more title reigns then every wrestler today put together, and as taken Kayfabe to a whole new level.
Michael's "retired" Flair....only in Kayfabe. He is still actively wrestling in other smaller territories. He just finshed a match recently with ROH and he is one of the guys on Hogan's new tour wrestling in Australia.
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Hogan was / is wrestling. He drew more numbers back in the day right up into his HOF cerimony. He was on the cover of sports illustrated, 10 min standing ovations and selling out arenas night after night while all these "Johnny come lately's" where at home breast feeding. It didn't matter that he had "x" amount of moves in his repitiore. Fans LOVED him and paid top dollar to watch him main event against the local heel at the time. Look at WWE's top star John Cena. John Cena makes 1,700,000 dollars per year wrestling alone and yet he can't wrestle for shit but he can draw. That's the main thing.
Flair was totally amazing. The only reason why flair wasn't as popular as Hogan is because he wasn't marketed properly by JCP (Jim Crockett Promotions / NWA). He was a phenomenal wrestler and he wrestled every single top dog of every territory all over the world defeating that person. His ring promos to this day still take the cake. He drew all kinds for JCP at that time and made himself and alot of people around him very rich. Hogan had one thing that Flair didn't. Vince McMahon...and Flair admitted this himself on the Horseman DVD.
Shawn Michaels??? How did he get into this comparison?? Hogan is a Ferrari. Flair is a Lamborghini. Michael's is a suped up Mustang. Get my point? Comparing Michaels to Hogan & Flair is like comparing a diamond (Hogan & Flair) to horse manuer (Michaels). Seriously now :-\. Althopugh he is argubly the best entertainer, he is also a heat score backstage. He never took orders, never listened, when he had to job ot other stars he flat out refused and he was known to throw tantrums back stage :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(.
All of a sudden he finds God and now. Please. Hogan & Flair would have 16,000 - 18,000 sellouts even at house shows. I went to one house show here in Toronto back in 1996 when Michaels was champion and a mere 6,000 people showed up to the arena and Toronto is a huge sports city especially for wrestling. Yes, Michaels is a great entertainer, he's put 100% in every one of his matches, is innovative in the ring, a great wrestler and the showstopper, but sorry folks, he's no Hogan or Flair.
Amen. You cannot argue the legend that is Hogan and Flair. It's them and then everyone else that ever came in the history of wrestling. Anyone who doesn't see this knows nothing about wrestling.
All Time
1. Hulk Hogan
2. Ric Flair
3. Everyone else
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Could Flair carry the federation? You're kidding right? Has HBK ever been the main event on a card with 190,000 people in attendance as Flair was in 1995 in N. Korea? OPf course Flair could have been the flag bearer for the WWF during that time period. Hell, to settle the whole thing ask HBK....we KNOW who he thinks the greatest of all time is....and I'll take his word for it. Besides, you've admitted hardly watching anything other than the WWF, especially during the 80's, which was Flair's prime, so I don't think you can be objective.
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Could Flair carry the federation? You're kidding right? Has HBK ever been the main event on a card with 190,000 people in attendance as Flair was in 1995 in N. Korea? OPf course Flair could have been the flag bearer for the WWF during that time period. Hell, to settle the whole thing ask HBK....we KNOW who he thinks the greatest of all time is....and I'll take his word for it. Besides, you've admitted hardly watching anything other than the WWF, especially during the 80's, which was Flair's prime, so I don't think you can be objective.
Quoted for the truth.
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I didn't need to watch anything else because I had Hulkamania! Superstars, TNT, Saturday nights main event. I go to Korea town if I want Korean food. I could care less about North Korea. Thats like Big Foot to me. It's a story I always hear but I've never seen it. I was on Long Island watching Hulk Hogan. Every single time he came to Nassau Coliseum and MSG I went. Hogans the best no doubt. Now if the 80's was Flairs prime? Where was he at when he joined the Federation? With Bobby and Perfect? Where was he at when he interferred with the Taker/Hogan match causing Hogan to loose? Where was he at when he drew #1 in the RR and won the heavyweight title? I never knew Flair had a prime??? Hogan had a prime. But HBK and Flair never did because they're that great. Flair just had a longer career. Better on the mic. WWF Flair is one of my favorites. But nothing will make me think otherwise that HBK is better. Flair might of set the standard. HBK just raised the bar. There's only been one Federation for Chef Tim. The WWE for life!
How much stock do you own in the WWE, Tim? hahaha You are a dedicated fan, no doubt. But I think that also hurts you in evaluating Flair, Hogan and HBK. You never watched them outside of the WWF, so you have only watched part of their careers.
Every wrester has a prime, just like every athlete. Hogan's and Flair's were the 80's....HBK the 90's. Doesn't mean they all weren't great outside those decades, it just means that is what is widely considered their best years.
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This is Ric Flair in his prime:
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Could Flair have carried the Federation like HBK did? Keep it afloat like HBK did? Time and place for everything. What would a Hogan/Andre match draw at a 2010 Mania main event??? I got news for you all. HBK climbed to the top and stayed on the top during the most competitive era in Wrestling. Last time I checked? He's still on top! Hulk Hogan is probably the only person on planet earth I would be star struck by. That guy was my hero. He was such a tremendous impact on my life. I love that guy with all of my heart. But if it wasn't for the NWO he was completely done. Now like every rehabilited druggy and ex con. They find God. Thats what happened to HBK. Did he surpass Hogan? Nobody ever will. Did he surpass Flair? How can anyone say he didn't? Flair beats him mic wise. But other then that Shawn is better then him. If Shawn went to WCW like all the rest of the guys. Do you think Shawn would have soared or sank? Yeah me too. He would have soared. The reason being is because he's the best.
For starters, HBK never carried the federation. As I recall, he burned out and needed "to find his smile", aka, I can't handle the pressure / aka, I don't want to job to anyone and popped pills left, right & centre. It was the Undertaker. Undertaker was the biggest star the fed had at the time during the dark underbelly when they were getting crushed in the ratings by WCW. Undertaker headlined every single show. Had Michaels gone to WCW he would have sank like the titanic. Why? WWE owns all the rights to his "Heartbreak Kid" gimmick, his music and basically his livelyhood. He would have never kept up with the NWO angle even if his life depended on it. The NWO was the biggest thing going back then. He made a wise choicwe sticking to the fed. WWE was suffering and he was the big fish in a small pond. The bottom line is that Hogan & Flair paved the way for everyone else in the business.
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This is Ric Flair in his prime:
Incredible promo. I laugh when people think the Rock, Austin, etc... can even come close to those type of promos. Complete kayfabe and has the crowd eating out of his hand the whole time. Whooooooooooooooo !!!
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Incredible promo. I laugh when people think the Rock, Austin, etc... can even come close to those type of promos. Complete kayfabe and has the crowd eating out of his hand the whole time. Whooooooooooooooo !!!
Flair's promos took the cake. This was a good find. If any of you want a good time, buy the Ric Flair DVD with the purple cover.
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I said it before and I'll say it again.
1. Hulk Hogan
2. Ric Flair
3. Everyone else...
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I love 'em both, but Flair edges it out just for his over-the-top preening and mic game. I'm a sucker for vain heels.
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Incredible promo. I laugh when people think the Rock, Austin, etc... can even come close to those type of promos. Complete kayfabe and has the crowd eating out of his hand the whole time. Whooooooooooooooo !!!
Exactly. Lets see one of them put themself over, put the company over, plug there match, plug the upcoming paper view, keep the crowd into it for four minutes, and get heat without hardly stopping to think about what they are saying.
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Exactly. Lets see one of them put themself over, put the company over, plug there match, plug the upcoming paper view, keep the crowd into it for four minutes, and get heat without hardly stopping to think about what they are saying.
He also managed to throw in a dig at the WWF, when he says, "Thanksgiving night, there's nothing else going on." If I'm not mistaken, the Survivor Series show was also being held that night.
I've given my share of public presentations. That promo is off the chart: a ten: Flair just takes the idea and sells it to the nth degree.
Also, as you said, to get that emotional without losing your train of thought is freakin' hard, as was shutting up the kids who were heckling him, then, effortlessly getting right back on track.
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He also managed to throw in a dig at the WWF, when he says, "Thanksgiving night, there's nothing else going on." If I'm not mistaken, the Survivor Series show was also being held that night.
I've given my share of public presentations. That promo is off the chart: a ten: Flair just takes the idea and sells it to the nth degree.
Also, as you said, to get that emotional without losing your train of thought is freakin' hard, as was shutting up the kids who were heckling him, then, effortlessly getting right back on track.
Good point I didn't even catch the dig at Survivor Series. That is awesome.
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Incredible promo. I laugh when people think the Rock, Austin, etc... can even come close to those type of promos. Complete kayfabe and has the crowd eating out of his hand the whole time. Whooooooooooooooo !!!
To long time geeks such as ourselves, yes - the comparison is laughable.
But in all fairness to Rock & co., those guys came up in a different era.
Flair was arguably the greatest on the mic throughout the 70's, 80's, & much of the 90's.
By the time Rocky & Austin made it to the big time, the climate had changed.
The days of 4+ minute promos that had depth, emotion, and meaning were replaced by boobies & catch phrases.
But that was down to the fans.
Crowds never played sing-along with Flair’s interviews.
But that’s what they now wanted, and Austin, Rock, etc. delivered.
It’s analogous to comparing Nicholson’s “Joker” to Ledger’s.
Both great performances, but such different portrayals that it’s difficult to do a direct comparison of anything other than the quality of delivery.
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To long time geeks such as ourselves, yes - the comparison is laughable.
But in all fairness to Rock & co., those guys came up in a different era.
Flair was arguably the greatest on the mic throughout the 70's, 80's, & much of the 90's.
By the time Rocky & Austin made it to the big time, the climate had changed.
The days of 4+ minute promos that had depth, emotion, and meaning were replaced by boobies & catch phrases.
But that was down to the fans.
Crowds never played sing-along with Flair’s interviews.
But that’s what they now wanted, and Austin, Rock, etc. delivered.
It’s analogous to comparing Nicholson’s “Joker” to Ledger’s.
Both great performances, but such different portrayals that it’s difficult to do a direct comparison of anything other than the quality of delivery.
I understand what you are saying as the fans today also can't watch 5 minutes of a match without chanting boring, unless somebody dives off the roof or sets his nuts on fire.
I've never really cared to do too much comparisons between era's, for the reasons you stated. However, I will say that Flair is widely recognized as the greatest on the mic by most in the biz over the last 25-30 years.
Much like I prefer a worker who can wrestle a "catch can" style, depending on the crowd, opponent, etc... vs a wrestlers matches that seem over planned, with little room for being creative, I prefer a promo that the wrestler himself obviously developed and delivered without a script from 10 writers in the back.
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I understand what you are saying as the fans today also can't watch 5 minutes of a match without chanting boring, unless somebody dives off the roof or sets his nuts on fire.
I've never really cared to do too much comparisons between era's, for the reasons you stated. However, I will say that Flair is widely recognized as the greatest on the mic by most in the biz over the last 25-30 years.
Much like I prefer a worker who can wrestle a "catch can" style, depending on the crowd, opponent, etc... vs a wrestlers matches that seem over planned, with little room for being creative, I prefer a promo that the wrestler himself obviously developed and delivered without a script from 10 writers in the back.
I agree 100%. There is no emotion in the interviews today though. No good fueds. When your fueding with a different guy each week its hard to build any raw emotion towards him. And its a shame that very few guys today could go out there and cut an interview on someone without 90% of it being prewritten back stage.
Also as someone said above Flair lived the "Ric Flair" role and that is what made it so damn good. People believed it because believed it and lived it. Everyone knows John Cena doesn't go home and hit the streets being a eminem rapper wanna be thug, hell even Stone Cold admitted in a recent muscle and fitness interview that he wasn't a beer drinking SOB. But you could see Flair anywhere outside of the ring, especially in the 80's, and he WAS RIC FLAIR and that is what made him so good.
But your right there is no way to compare the 80's and early 90's to what we have now, the fans are different, they want different things. Could you imagine how many fans would turn off monday if Cena wrestled Orton to a sixty minute draw next week? Especially if it was a good old fashion wrestling match? How long do you think they could keep the crowd into it before everyone headed for a beer? The bottom line is wrestling sucks now!! Thank God for DVD's,old VHS tapes, and you tube!!! ;D
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It is just seriously going in the wrong direction. A PPV with all Cell matches? Then Monday Cena and Orton setting their Iron Man match for the next PPV. Cena's going on how he and Orton have a classic rivalry. It was so bad. These two guys are like oil and water. It's amazing how far ring entrance music can carry a guy. Cena sucks. Now they're gonna have a "no rules" Ironman match. It's so stupid. Cena has got to loose? I mean come on now. Is the title gonna switch hands every PPV? If Cena was never in the Military? What the F is he saluting about??????????????????
Yeah what happened to the days of long title runs? If they would have swapped titles this much in the 80's Flair would probably be a fifty time world champion. But the titles don't mean anything now. Its just a state prop. And there is NOTHING classic about Cena and Orton.
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Yeah what happened to the days of long title runs? If they would have swapped titles this much in the 80's Flair would probably be a fifty time world champion. But the titles don't mean anything now. Its just a state prop. And there is NOTHING classic about Cena and Orton.
Agree completely with you and cheftim on the fueds/titles. In the 80's, and even somewhat in the 90's, a feud would brew for months before they had a blowoff match. Now, with the fans having the attention span of a gnat, they can't let it develop. They just cram two guys together, swap a title back and forth, and think it creates heat.
I think the gray area between heel and face is partly responsible for this too. I know the "attitude era" effectively ended it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. It's like when the Horsemen were running things...even though some of us embraced them, there was no doubt they were 100% heels.
Just think back to the days when guys were riding the road, 4 in a car, shitty pay, and they were developing their own storylines while they did it ripping along at 90mph, probably having a few cold ones. Now the wrestlers rely on a team to develop everything about their character, matches, promo's, etc... EVERYTHING.
The creativity side is dead.
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Just think back to the days when guys were riding the road, 4 in a car, shitty pay, and they were developing their own storylines while they did it ripping along at 90mph, probably having a few cold ones. Now the wrestlers rely on a team to develop everything about their character, matches, promo's, etc... EVERYTHING.
The creativity side is dead.
Agreed. I wish they'd let the guys do that again, instead of having a room full of guys who are writing crazy storylines to impress Vince more than impress the fans.
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Agree completely with you and cheftim on the fueds/titles. In the 80's, and even somewhat in the 90's, a feud would brew for months before they had a blowoff match. Now, with the fans having the attention span of a gnat, they can't let it develop. They just cram two guys together, swap a title back and forth, and think it creates heat.
I think the gray area between heel and face is partly responsible for this too. I know the "attitude era" effectively ended it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. It's like when the Horsemen were running things...even though some of us embraced them, there was no doubt they were 100% heels.
Just think back to the days when guys were riding the road, 4 in a car, shitty pay, and they were developing their own storylines while they did it ripping along at 90mph, probably having a few cold ones. Now the wrestlers rely on a team to develop everything about their character, matches, promo's, etc... EVERYTHING.
The creativity side is dead.
I think Vince is starting to reap what he sowed by killing off the territories. The guys, today, have no where to get seasoned enough to be a legit main eventer. An indy show every now and then isn't gonna cut it.
When I started watching wrestling at age 8, Bruno Sammartino was the champ. Every two months a new heel, legit main eventer, would come from another territory and you'd wonder if this was gonna be the guy to finally knock off Bruno. Once the heel lost, he left for another territory. It kept things fresh. Today, you see the same guys every week.
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I think Vince is starting to reap what he sowed by killing off the territories. The guys, today, have no where to get seasoned enough to be a legit main eventer. An indy show every now and then isn't gonna cut it.
When I started watching wrestling at age 8, Bruno Sammartino was the champ. Every two months a new heel, legit main eventer, would come from another territory and you'd wonder if this was gonna be the guy to finally knock off Bruno. Once the heel lost, he left for another territory. It kept things fresh. Today, you see the same guys every week.
Agreed 100%. Also I don't like these quick title changes. Randy Orton loses the title, then wins it back, then loses it again & wins it back....bullshit. I hate it when they do that.
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Agreed 100%. Also I don't like these quick title changes. Randy Orton loses the title, then wins it back, then loses it again & wins it back....bullshit. I hate it when they do that.
Yeah, I'm not keen on that. I don't get why they gave him the title at Hell in a Cell. Just so they could do the 'Cena leaves Raw' stipulation? What's the point? I'm also not a big fan of the way Cena gets his ass handed to him for fifteen minutes, then suddenly hits three moves and wins.
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Yeah, I'm not keen on that. I don't get why they gave him the title at Hell in a Cell. Just so they could do the 'Cena leaves Raw' stipulation? What's the point? I'm also not a big fan of the way Cena gets his ass handed to him for fifteen minutes, then suddenly hits three moves and wins.
Sounds like Hogan
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They need to keep titles on people a bit longer. You lose interest quickly. How many times am I supposed to see Cena win? Or Orton?
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And its not just WWE, TNA is just as bad. There is no build up to the ppv's, the fued. The only match they have done any kind of building towards is Foley vs Abyss. Other than that they just have one PPV, then the next thursday announce the matches for the next one.
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Now the wrestlers rely on a team to develop everything about their character, matches, promo's, etc... EVERYTHING.
The creativity side is dead.
That’s also what happens when you pool writers from a soap opera set.
They need bookers who come from some kind of wrestling background.
Part of the problem with WCW was even the guy who owned it didn’t know jack-diddly shit about the business, and he appointed the same kind of people to run his company.
Russo & Ferrara may have been two exceptions – at least in WWF – but even then, it’s been said that the old man modified most of their ideas himself before green-lighting them. Once Russo was given absolute power down Atlanta, well…you know the rest.
Vince, Shane, Stephanie, etc. booked some good stuff post-Russo.
Then they hired that soap writer, who wasn’t terrible, but they still had good wrestlers who could do things like improvise, and had some responsibility & freedom as far as matches AND promos.
Ex.: “We need 12 minutes. When Howard puts the pencil in his mouth – you’ll have 1 min. to go home. The rest is up to you.”
Improvisation allowed guys to react to the fans as well as modify what may not be working to produce a better match.
It's fast becoming a lost art.
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Flair has him on mic work but Hogan owns him everywhere else. He drew more money than Flair could dream of. I respect Flair but Hogan could draw all over the country and the world. The WWF tanked when Hogan went on sabbatical and Flair became champ and WCW was doing awful when he went back until Hogan came in. He was on of the biggest stars of the 80's not just in wrestling but entertainment in general. This isn't a knock on Flair because just WCW wasn't run by rocket scientists just my opinion.
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Flair has him on mic work but Hogan owns him everywhere else. He drew more money than Flair could dream of. I respect Flair but Hogan could draw all over the country and the world. The WWF tanked when Hogan went on sabbatical and Flair became champ and WCW was doing awful when he went back until Hogan came in. He was on of the biggest stars of the 80's not just in wrestling but entertainment in general. This isn't a knock on Flair because just WCW wasn't run by rocket scientists just my opinion.
I agree. Its like Hogan said in his promo at bash at the beach when he formed the NWO..."I made the people up north rich (wwe), I made the owner (Vince McMahon) rich and when the name Hulk Hogan came to pass, Hulk Hogan got bigger then the sport of professional wrestling / sports entertainment. What happened after that? WCW beat WWE for 92 weeks straight in the ratings. Why? Because of Hogan.
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I agree. Its like Hogan said in his promo at bash at the beach when he formed the NWO..."I made the people up north rich (wwe), I made the owner (Vince McMahon) rich and when the name Hulk Hogan came to pass, Hulk Hogan got bigger then the sport of professional wrestling / sports entertainment. What happened after that? WCW beat WWE for 92 weeks straight in the ratings. Why? Because of Hogan.
You think Hogan is the reason WCW beat WWE for 92 weeks? He might have helped at the very beggining with the NWO but there was too many factors involved to give credit to just one person.
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Flair has him on mic work but Hogan owns him everywhere else. He drew more money than Flair could dream of. I respect Flair but Hogan could draw all over the country and the world. The WWF tanked when Hogan went on sabbatical and Flair became champ and WCW was doing awful when he went back until Hogan came in. He was on of the biggest stars of the 80's not just in wrestling but entertainment in general. This isn't a knock on Flair because just WCW wasn't run by rocket scientists just my opinion.
In-ring work would also go to Flair by at least as much as mic work. Not even debatable.
The only thing Hogan "owned" Flair at was working for a larger promotion. And to be fair, both the WWF and WCW were doing awful during the time right before Hogan signed with WCW. People forget that Hogan was around in WCW for awhile before the nWo angle and it wasn't like WCW was doing big business during that t period. It's well documented that Hogan saw the nWo angle taking off and shouldered his way into it. I give much more of the credit to the whole nWo angle than to any one wrestler in it.
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You think Hogan is the reason WCW beat WWE for 92 weeks? He might have helped at the very beggining with the NWO but there was too many factors involved to give credit to just one person.
Absolutely. It was a combination of the Hogan heel turn because it was fresh and something new to watch and the formation of the NWO Hall & Nash. Not to mention they had other top names like Randy Savage, Sid, Sting, Rick & Scott Steiner, The Road Warriors, etc. Hall & Nash deserve way more credit then people give them because they were excellent in the ring and good on the mic. Good heat.
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No doubt it was Hogan at the start. Then all eyes were on Goldberg.
Goldberg was the guy to beat Hogan and stop the NWO. Unfortunately Goldberg was very sloppy and very green in the ring and turned out to be only a flash in the pan.
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Yeah but when the NWO had about 100 members and was a complete disaster. Everyone was tuning in to see Goldberg. He helped keep the ship afloat.
Personally, I think they could have used Goldberg a hell of a lot better then what they did. But the problem was his in ring ability was very green. He hurt a lot of guys. Ended Bret Hart's career and caused his stroke because of a super kick he couldn't control. His entrance build up was awesome, as was his intensity but thats about it.