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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: loco on December 09, 2009, 10:55:07 AM
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Interesting article! Thoughts?
Dec. 9, 2009
MINNEAPOLIS – Angie O'Neill recently moved into a new apartment complex for seniors and she's trying to make new friends. But Christmas is a tough time of year for an atheist.
"All the planned activities at this time of year revolve around the church," said O'Neill, a retiree and an atheist for decades.
O'Neill sought an escape this week, joining a group of her fellow nonbelievers for a weekly "Atheist Happy Hour" at a suburban Mexican restaurant. The group, Atheists for Human Rights, is active year-round but takes it up a notch this time of year with a Winter Solstice party, a charity drive and good attendance for the weekly gathering at Ol' Mexico.
For one thing, it's a chance to share coping techniques during this most religious time of year. They range from the simple, like warning about certain stores that blare religious Christmas songs, to tougher tasks like how to avoid certain topics with certain family members. These atheists describe adjusting some customs to make them their own, like Nancy Ruhland, a pharmacist who sends out Christmas cards to friends and loved ones — but makes sure to find ones without a Christian message or subtext.
Even as they chafe at the omnipresence of Christmas, many of the atheists here are quick to stress their belief in the pagan roots of a yearly celebration near the winter solstice. Before Christianity and other organized religions, many cultures would mark the point where days started getting longer again with a "festival of light" that included parties, gift exchanges, even placing trees in homes. Some of those rituals were religious, but usually in a polytheistic way.
"What we're celebrating this year is the promise of the sun returning. That's S-U-N, not S-O-N," said Bill Weir, a retired marketing executive from Plymouth.
"Then the Christians stole it," added Marie Elena Castle of Minneapolis, the 82-year-old founder of Atheists for Human Rights and an atheist activist for two decades. It's a season of celebration for the Jewish faith as well, with Hanukkah.
Still, none of the atheists interviewed for this story expressed a wish to be left out of Christmas entirely.
"Food, we like. Presents, we like. Seeing family, we like," said Val Woelfel of St. Paul, an aspiring archaeologist. Woelfel, 47, and her boyfriend, Bjorn Larsen, 32, planned to erect a tree in their living room: "Sacred trees are an ancient custom. It's pretty, it smells nice and it's pagan," Woelfel said.
Some of the atheist attitudes toward Christmas seem the result of well-practiced defense mechanisms. Castle, for instance, gets just as irritated when people tell her "Merry Christmas" as some Christians do when people tell them "Happy Holidays." O'Neill, who declines to give her age, said she wished parents would tell their kids there is no God at the same time they pass along certain information about Santa Claus.
But a number of the atheists who have issues with Christmas said their feelings come in part from years of discrimination.
Larsen, a mechanic, said his ex-wife suggested his atheism was a character flaw in court filings during a contentious divorce with the custody of their children in dispute (he lost custody). Another man at the Atheist Happy Hour declined to reveal his last name, saying his employer is a conservative Catholic who would not tolerate a committed atheist on the payroll.
Still, most participate to some degree in Christmas celebrations, particularly those from Christian families. Larsen said he and Woelfel would join dozens of his relatives for a Christmas brunch at his parents' house on Dec. 24. But he would likely stay behind when most head to church afterward.
"It's the biggest family event of the year, and for me it's about seeing the family," said Larsen, an auto mechanic. "It's about taking the good and leaving the bad."
Ruhland, the pharmacist, said she "came out" as an atheist eight years ago to her family, most of whom are active and traditional Catholics. She still spends time with them at Christmas, and said most have learned to avoid the topic of religion when she's around. "I just sit in the back while they pray, and keep my mouth shut," she said.
For some atheists, the proximity to believers is even closer. Jim Wright, a retired merchandiser, lives with his 92-year-old mother in St. Paul. She "believes all that crap," he said.
"She wants me to come back to God, but I can't because he never existed," Wright said. This Christmas, he said, "I told her if she wants lights on the side of the house that she needs to do it. She's long since given up on the tree."
Castle, the veteran activist, said people shouldn't cave in to the notion that Christmas belongs to Christians.
"Baby Jesus is just an excuse for a lot of people to party, anyway," Castle said. "Enjoy your friends. Eat, drink and be merry."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091209/ap_on_re/us_rel_religion_today/print
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For some atheists, the proximity to believers is even closer. Jim Wright, a retired merchandiser, lives with his 92-year-old mother in St. Paul. She "believes all that crap," he said.
"She wants me to come back to God, but I can't because he never existed," Wright said. This Christmas, he said, "I told her if she wants lights on the side of the house that she needs to do it. She's long since given up on the tree."
I hope the 92 year old mom he lives with is careful putting up her lights :P
Eat, drink and be merry."
"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you."
:o
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christmas is a pagan holiday.Not christian, you guys stole it and alot of the symbolism is anti christian.
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christmas is a pagan holiday.Not christian, you guys stole it and alot of the symbolism is anti christian.
I didn't steal anything. People around the world have been celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ around this season for thousands of years before I was born.
A lot of Christmas symbolism is anti Christian? Like what for example?
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I didn't steal anything. People around the world have been celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ around this season for thousands of years before I was born.
A lot of Christmas symbolism is anti Christian? Like what for example?
it is a pagan holiday, the christians pretend it is a christian holiday.
the evergreen tree, santa claus to name a few, have roots in paganism and are anti christian.
do you admit that christmas is a pagan holiday, that the winter solstice was a tradition long before christians? You guys are laying claim to something that isnt yours to begin with.
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I didn't steal anything. People around the world have been celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ around this season for thousands of years before I was born.
A lot of Christmas symbolism is anti Christian? Like what for example?
There was no Jesus Christ - not in the biblical sense anyway. Thank "God" I live in a country where the Church isn't all that - I have absolutely no problem with Christmas.
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it is a pagan holiday, the christians pretend it is a christian holiday.
the evergreen tree, santa claus to name a few, have roots in paganism and are anti christian.
do you admit that christmas is a pagan holiday, that the winter solstice was a tradition long before christians? You guys are laying claim to something that isnt yours to begin with.
The evergreen tree? Santa Claus? That's funny! That makes Christmas a pagan holiday? Latin Americans have been celebrating Christmas for centuries and we have no evergreen tree and no Santa Claus. We decorate with a nativity scene and some parents tell their kids that their Christmas presents came from the child Jesus, while other parents tell their kids that their gifts came from the same wise men who brought gifts to Jesus.
People around the world celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ around this season in their own way. I'm sure many other celebrations, pagan or not, happen to fall around the same season. It does not follow that Christmas was stolen from those other celebrations. Christians picked a season to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, and they picked this season. It's a couple of thousand year old tradition.
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There was no Jesus Christ - not in the biblical sense anyway. Thank "God" I live in a country where the Church isn't all that - I have absolutely no problem with Christmas.
Jesus Christ is, always has been, and always will be.
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The evergreen tree? Santa Claus? That's funny! That makes Christmas a pagan holiday? Latin Americans have been celebrating Christmas for centuries and we have no evergreen tree and no Santa Claus. We decorate with a nativity scene and some parents tell their kids that their Christmas presents came from the child Jesus, while other parents tell their kids that their gifts came from the same wise men who brought gifts to Jesus.
People around the world celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ around this season in their own way. I'm sure many other celebrations, pagan or not, happen to fall around the same season. It does not follow that Christmas was stolen from those other celebrations. Christians picked a season to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, and they picked this season. It's a couple of thousand year old tradition.
so are you denying that christmas was pagan holiday, that the 25th of december, the christmas tree, the idea of santa clause, the idea of giving presents etc. are not pagan tradition which predates christianity?
they happened to pick the exact same day as the pagan celebration of winter solstice, ripe with all their symbolism ::)
they didnt pick, they stole. the celebration and giving of gifts on the 25th has nothign to do with christ.
http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm
i believe santa has some meaning tied with satan, but i will have to research that.
I hate when christians try to take credit for the celebration on the 25th, the gift giving or any of that, you borrowed the tradition and now claim it is yours. Then post articles about atheists and non sense.
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so are you denying that christmas was pagan holiday, that the 25th of december, the christmas tree, the idea of santa clause, the idea of giving presents etc. are not pagan tradition which predates christianity?
they happened to pick the exact same day as the pagan celebration of winter solstice, ripe with all their symbolism ::)
they didnt pick, they stole. the celebration and giving of gifts on the 25th has nothign to do with christ.
http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm
i believe santa has some meaning tied with satan, but i will have to research that.
I hate when christians try to take credit for the celebration on the 25th, the gift giving or any of that, you borrowed the tradition and now claim it is yours. Then post articles about atheists and non sense.
I already told you, Latin Americans have been celebrating Christmas for centuries without the evergreen tree and without Santa Claus. We have nativity scenes, the child Jesus and the wise men. Who did we steal that from?
As for the Christian figure of Santa Claus, he was primarily inspired by Saint Nicholas of Myra. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor.
Now Christians stole the giving of gifts? ::)
Christians have always associated gift giving/receiving with Jesus Christ.
Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.
John 4:10
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
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I already told you, Latin Americans have been celebrating Christmas for centuries without the evergreen tree and without Santa Claus. We have nativity scenes, the child Jesus and the wise men. Who did we steal that from?
As for the Christian figure of Santa Claus, he was primarily inspired by Saint Nicholas of Myra. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor.
Now Christians stole the giving of gifts? ::)
Christians have always associated gift giving/receiving with Jesus Christ.
Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.
John 4:10
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
come on, you know they placed christian holidays over pagan holidays in the process of destroying native european customs and religion. Santa is as much based on Odin. Certainly the time of the year for the celebration belongs to pagan tradition, not christian. Simple fact is many christians at christmas time practice pagan customs, even the christmas tree and yule log.
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you guys stole it
No disrespect but this made me lol
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you guys stole it
No disrespect but this made me lol
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come on, you know they placed christian holidays over pagan holidays in the process of destroying native european customs and religion. Santa is as much based on Odin. Certainly the time of the year for the celebration belongs to pagan tradition, not christian. Simple fact is many christians at christmas time practice pagan customs, even the christmas tree and yule log.
i know because he can find a quote saying they gave gifts he thinks it makes it irrelavent. The point is, i know your being willingly ignorant, is that the exchange of gifts on the 25th is a pagan celebration, long before the christians did it. The fact that you guys also give gifts on the 25th means one of two things. It is mere coincidence, or you are plagerizing a pagan tradition.
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;D
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i know because he can find a quote saying they gave gifts he thinks it makes it irrelavent. The point is, i know your being willingly ignorant, is that the exchange of gifts on the 25th is a pagan celebration, long before the christians did it. The fact that you guys also give gifts on the 25th means one of two things. It is mere coincidence, or you are plagerizing a pagan tradition.
Many Latin Americans give/receive gifts on January 6th. Parents tell their kids those gifts came from the same wise men who brought gifts to baby Jesus. Please explain to me which pagan tradition we stole this from.
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Many Latin Americans give/receive gifts on January 6th. Parents tell their kids those gifts came from the same wise men who brought gifts to baby Jesus. Please explain to me which pagan tradition we stole this from.
thats not christmas, we are arguing about the 25th. Also, the gift giving around that time predates christianity, it is known that they choose this time to make conversion easier. Its a fact.
why are we now arguing about jan? ??? The whole festivity of the 25th is a pagan tradition, even the symbolism and some of the features. the evergreen,the gift giving on the 25th or the winter solstice earlier to that, the yule log all of that shit. Nothing about the 25th is original to christianity and its not YOUR holiday, it just isn't, it is a pagan holiday. It cant be both, one is earlier then the other, suprising that christians couldn't choose one of the 364 other days ::)
sounds like the same idea of dec 25th to me. Im not claiming that giving gifts is a non-christian thing, its to general. Im claiming that christmas as celebrated on the 25th of december and all that goes along with this is directly pagan. This is a fact. You are changing the goalposts over and over.
is the 25th a pagan holiday or not?
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we should steal christmas like the christians, the 25th is now atheist gift giving day, proper analogy?
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thats not christmas, we are arguing about the 25th. Also, the gift giving around that time predates christianity, it is known that they choose this time to make conversion easier. Its a fact.
why are we now arguing about jan? ??? The whole festivity of the 25th is a pagan tradition, even the symbolism and some of the features. the evergreen,the gift giving on the 25th or the winter solstice earlier to that, the yule log all of that shit. Nothing about the 25th is original to christianity and its not YOUR holiday, it just isn't, it is a pagan holiday. It cant be both, one is earlier then the other, suprising that christians couldn't choose one of the 364 other days ::)
sounds like the same idea of dec 25th to me. Im not claiming that giving gifts is a non-christian thing, its to general. Im claiming that christmas as celebrated on the 25th of december and all that goes along with this is directly pagan. This is a fact. You are changing the goalposts over and over.
is the 25th a pagan holiday or not?
Christmas is not limited to December 25th, the tree and Santa. That is my point when I bring up Latin Americans celebrating Christmas on January 6th instead of December 25th, with a Nativity Scene instead of a Christmas tree, with the Child Jesus and the Wise Men bringing gifts instead of Santa Claus.
I don't know the significance of the Christmas tree. I'll look it up.
I already told you where the Christian Santa Claus comes from, Saint Nicholas.
And if December 25th was the same day as some popular pagan celebration, and if it was chosen by Christians to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ in order to make conversion easier, and if Christians in the West choose to continue this thousand year old tradition, so what? Good for them! From a Christian point of view, why not replace a pagan holiday with a Christian one?
And to me Christmas is for everybody, not just for Christians.
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we should steal christmas like the christians, the 25th is now atheist gift giving day, proper analogy?
Nobody stole Christmas. Nobody can steal Christmas. If atheists around the world want to start their own holiday on December 25th, then go for it. I'm sure there are many different celebrations going on around the world on December 25th. They can all go on simultaneously. One does not have to, and cannot replace the other.
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we should steal christmas like the christians, the 25th is now atheist gift giving day, proper analogy?
To Necrosis ;D
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That is my point when I bring up Latin Americans celebrating Christmas on January 6th instead of December 25th, with a Nativity Scene instead of a Christmas tree, with the Child Jesus and the Wise Men bringing gifts instead of Santa Claus.
Interesting, I never knew that. Do they do other traditional things like X-mas eve, midnight mass, gift giving, etc?
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Interesting, I never knew that. Do they do other traditional things like X-mas eve, midnight mass, gift giving, etc?
Some do. The gift giving is always a part of it, which originates from the wise men bringing gifts to Jesus.
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Some do. The gift giving is always a part of it, which originates from the wise men bringing gifts to Jesus.
oh thats were it originates
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some parents tell their kids that their Christmas presents came from the child Jesus, while other parents tell their kids that their gifts came from the same wise men who brought gifts to Jesus.
poor children brainwashed and indoctrinated before they even have a chance to think for themselves...
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poor children brainwashed and indoctrinated before they even have a chance to think for themselves...
Do you have children?
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Christmas is not limited to December 25th, the tree and Santa. That is my point when I bring up Latin Americans celebrating Christmas on January 6th instead of December 25th, with a Nativity Scene instead of a Christmas tree, with the Child Jesus and the Wise Men bringing gifts instead of Santa Claus.
I don't know the significance of the Christmas tree. I'll look it up.
I already told you where the Christian Santa Claus comes from, Saint Nicholas.
And if December 25th was the same day as some popular pagan celebration, and if it was chosen by Christians to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ in order to make conversion easier, and if Christians in the West choose to continue this thousand year old tradition, so what? Good for them! From a Christian point of view, why not replace a pagan holiday with a Christian one?
And to me Christmas is for everybody, not just for Christians.
christmas is widely known as the 25th of december. The same day as the pagan holiday which predates it. You are making my argument, christmas is not a christian holiday, everyone can celebrate it, and if you choose to claim it as yours as some christians do (see fox news) then we simple have to carry the argument to its logical conclusion to disprove the notion.
i agree that it is for everybody, thats my argument.
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i agree that it is for everybody, thats my argument.
Then I agree with your argument.
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Interesting article! Thoughts?
Dec. 9, 2009
MINNEAPOLIS – Angie O'Neill recently moved into a new apartment complex for seniors and she's trying to make new friends. But Christmas is a tough time of year for an atheist.
"All the planned activities at this time of year revolve around the church," said O'Neill, a retiree and an atheist for decades.
O'Neill sought an escape this week, joining a group of her fellow nonbelievers for a weekly "Atheist Happy Hour" at a suburban Mexican restaurant. The group, Atheists for Human Rights, is active year-round but takes it up a notch this time of year with a Winter Solstice party, a charity drive and good attendance for the weekly gathering at Ol' Mexico.
For one thing, it's a chance to share coping techniques during this most religious time of year. They range from the simple, like warning about certain stores that blare religious Christmas songs, to tougher tasks like how to avoid certain topics with certain family members. These atheists describe adjusting some customs to make them their own, like Nancy Ruhland, a pharmacist who sends out Christmas cards to friends and loved ones — but makes sure to find ones without a Christian message or subtext.
Even as they chafe at the omnipresence of Christmas, many of the atheists here are quick to stress their belief in the pagan roots of a yearly celebration near the winter solstice. Before Christianity and other organized religions, many cultures would mark the point where days started getting longer again with a "festival of light" that included parties, gift exchanges, even placing trees in homes. Some of those rituals were religious, but usually in a polytheistic way.
"What we're celebrating this year is the promise of the sun returning. That's S-U-N, not S-O-N," said Bill Weir, a retired marketing executive from Plymouth.
"Then the Christians stole it," added Marie Elena Castle of Minneapolis, the 82-year-old founder of Atheists for Human Rights and an atheist activist for two decades. It's a season of celebration for the Jewish faith as well, with Hanukkah.
Still, none of the atheists interviewed for this story expressed a wish to be left out of Christmas entirely.
"Food, we like. Presents, we like. Seeing family, we like," said Val Woelfel of St. Paul, an aspiring archaeologist. Woelfel, 47, and her boyfriend, Bjorn Larsen, 32, planned to erect a tree in their living room: "Sacred trees are an ancient custom. It's pretty, it smells nice and it's pagan," Woelfel said.
Some of the atheist attitudes toward Christmas seem the result of well-practiced defense mechanisms. Castle, for instance, gets just as irritated when people tell her "Merry Christmas" as some Christians do when people tell them "Happy Holidays." O'Neill, who declines to give her age, said she wished parents would tell their kids there is no God at the same time they pass along certain information about Santa Claus.
But a number of the atheists who have issues with Christmas said their feelings come in part from years of discrimination.
Larsen, a mechanic, said his ex-wife suggested his atheism was a character flaw in court filings during a contentious divorce with the custody of their children in dispute (he lost custody). Another man at the Atheist Happy Hour declined to reveal his last name, saying his employer is a conservative Catholic who would not tolerate a committed atheist on the payroll.
Still, most participate to some degree in Christmas celebrations, particularly those from Christian families. Larsen said he and Woelfel would join dozens of his relatives for a Christmas brunch at his parents' house on Dec. 24. But he would likely stay behind when most head to church afterward.
"It's the biggest family event of the year, and for me it's about seeing the family," said Larsen, an auto mechanic. "It's about taking the good and leaving the bad."
Ruhland, the pharmacist, said she "came out" as an atheist eight years ago to her family, most of whom are active and traditional Catholics. She still spends time with them at Christmas, and said most have learned to avoid the topic of religion when she's around. "I just sit in the back while they pray, and keep my mouth shut," she said.
For some atheists, the proximity to believers is even closer. Jim Wright, a retired merchandiser, lives with his 92-year-old mother in St. Paul. She "believes all that crap," he said.
"She wants me to come back to God, but I can't because he never existed," Wright said. This Christmas, he said, "I told her if she wants lights on the side of the house that she needs to do it. She's long since given up on the tree."
Castle, the veteran activist, said people shouldn't cave in to the notion that Christmas belongs to Christians.
"Baby Jesus is just an excuse for a lot of people to party, anyway," Castle said. "Enjoy your friends. Eat, drink and be merry."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091209/ap_on_re/us_rel_religion_today/print
I can see it now!!
"Don't shop at Target!! I hear they play 'What Child Is This"?
"I know how you feel! I was just at JcPenney's, looking for some cookware. And those folks HAD THE NERVE TO PLAY, 'O Holy Night'!!"
OH THE HUMANITY!!!!
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The True Origin of Christmas from a christian research perspective:
http://www.thercg.org/books/ttooc.html
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interesting quote:
“The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun.” – Thomas Paine
37. Even under the primitive discipline, and before the conversion of Rome, while the church was cautious of admitting into her worship any thing that had a relation to the old idolatry: yet even in this period, Gregory Thaumaturgus, is commended by his namesake of Nyssa, for changing the Pagan festivals into Christian holidays, the better to draw the heathens to the religion of Christ.77
42. The learned Christian advocate, M. Turretin, in describing the state of Christianity in the fourth century, has a well turned rhetoricism, the point of which is, "that it was not so much the empire that was brought over to the faith, as the faith that was brought over to the empire: not the Pagans who were converted to Christianity, but Christianity that was converted to Paganism."80
The Diegesis: being a discovery of the origin, evidences, and early history of Christianity ... By Robert Taylor 1829
http://books.google.com/books?id=4N4NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP5#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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MERRY CHRISTMAS (even to the atheists, some of whom may be seeing their shrink, so very stressed about someone whom they claim didn't exist)!!!
;D
On another note, have any of these guys, yapping about the "returning of the sun" considered folks in Florida or California (for whom such is hardly a concern)?
;D
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MERRY CHRISTMAS (even to the atheists, some of whom may be seeing their shrink, so very stressed about someone whom they claim didn't exist)!!!
;D
On another note, have any of these guys, yapping about the "returning of the sun" considered folks in Florida or California (for whom such is hardly a concern)?
;D
lol.. huh?