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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: loco on February 09, 2010, 10:55:19 AM
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Pat Buchanan
Tue Feb 9, 2010
Creators Syndicate – They are called the PIGS — Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain. What they have in common is that all are facing deficits and debts that could bring on national defaults and break up the European Union.
What brought the PIGS to the edge of the abyss?
All are neo-socialist states that provide welfare for poor people, generous unemployment, universal health care, early retirement and comfortable pensions. Most consume 40 percent to 50 percent of their gross domestic product annually, a crushing burden on the private sector.
Dying populations is a second cause. After two world wars, the Europeans lost their faith and embraced hedonism and materialism, la dolce vita. Large families fell out of favor. Women put off marriage and babies, and went to work. Birth control and abortion were made readily available in every country and, if not, just across the border.
For 30 years, the fertility rate of Europe has been below the 2.1 children per woman necessary to replace a population. In Russia and Ukraine, a million people disappear yearly. In Western Europe, the passing of the native-born goes on quietly, as Third World peoples come to fill the empty spaces left by the aborted and unconceived.
Turks are in Germany. Pakistanis, Indians, Arabs and Caribbean peoples are in Britain. Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccans occupy the southern coast of France and the banlieues around Paris.
These newcomers have neither the education nor skills of the Europeans. Hence, they earn less and contribute less in taxes, but consume more per capita in social benefits.
As the number of young entering the European labor forces shrinks, the number of seniors and aged grows. And thanks to advances in medicine, these retirees live lengthening lives. Thus the burden of pensions and health care grows steadily and the need for higher taxes and larger worker contributions increases.
Then there is globalization. In Europe, wages and taxes are high, regulations heavy, unions strong, and lawyers ubiquitous. Manufacturers, to cut costs, have been outsourcing production to where the labor is cheap and abundant, the unions are nonexistent or weak, and health, safety and environmental regulations are lax. Welcome to China.
Greece is the first European nation to hit the wall. As an EU member state, she is obligated to keep her deficit to 3 percent of GDP. But this year's is 12.7 percent, and Athens needs to issue $75 billion in bonds alone to finance the deficit and roll over debt.
The markets, however, are rating Greek bonds as risky bonds. To borrow, Athens must pay more than twice the interest rate Germany pays. Faced with strikes by public employees and students, Athens appears to lack the political will to make the cuts necessary to bring the budget back toward balance.
As Portugal, Ireland and Spain gaze on, Greece approaches a moment of truth. Should she default, their bonds, too, will plunge in value out of fear of a copycat default, and the interest rate they pay would also rise. They, too, might then take the Argentine road.
The EU's crisis would then be like a crisis in the United States should California default on its state bonds and interest rates on other municipal bonds surged to double digits.
Is there a way out?
One option is for the EU to bail out Greece with a huge loan. But if Greece cannot meet her debt obligations now, how could she pay back the loan? And if the EU cannot compel Greece to make deep budget cuts today, what leverage would the EU have after bailing out Athens and removing today's pressure on the government?
A second option is to call in the International Monetary Fund, which imposes tough conditions on nations receiving IMF loans — the Third World therapy. But problems would arise here, too.
First, it would be an admission that the EU cannot manage its own household. Second, the largest contributor to the IMF is Uncle Sam.
Why should America bail out Greece, when the EU is larger and richer and did not help bail out California in 2009? The stimulus bill did that in 2009, to which Europe contributed nothing.
Where Greece is at today, however, we shall all arrive tomorrow.
In every Western nation, government is growing beyond the capacity of taxpayers to bear. Deficits and debt are surging. Not enough children are being born to replace parents. The immigrant poor who consume more than they contribute are coming to take the empty places. Seniors and elderly are growing as a share of the population. Companies are saying goodbye to the West and moving offshore to low-wage lands.
The West begins to look like yesterday, while the East begins to look like tomorrow.
The West is approaching a crisis of solvency and of democracy. We shall see if democracy, which grew popular lavishing benefits upon all, is strong enough to start clawing them away. Or will democracy try to keep piling the burden on the producers until they rebel or depart?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20100209/cm_uc_crpbux/op_3312888
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Great article. Notice how TA, Luke, KC, Benny, and the rest of socialists wont go near this issue?
The 333386.
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interesting article. i don't agree that a socialist economic policy is completely to blame which is where 333 is trying to steer this ship.
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interesting article. i don't agree that a socialist economic policy is completely to blame which is where 333 is trying to steer this ship.
No, than what is to blame? To much Feta Cheese?
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interesting article. i don't agree that a socialist economic policy is completely to blame which is where 333 is trying to steer this ship.
It is a big part of the problem, that along with falling fertility rates which make socialist economic policies unsustainable for very long.
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It is a big part of the problem, that along with falling fertility rates which make socialist economic policies unsustainable for very long.
Socialism breeds lazy people and lazy behaviors on all levels.
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It is a big part of the problem, that along with falling fertility rates which make socialist economic policies unsustainable for very long.
Socialism breeds lazy people and lazy behaviors on all levels.
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Socialism breeds lazy people and lazy behaviors on all levels.
A middle class lady in Venezuela who has owned a business for a while was used to hiring girls from poor neighborhoods to clean her house since she was too busy with her business to clean her own house.
Hugo Chavez started giving away food baskets to the poor in her area. You would think the poor would think "Hey, I don't have to buy food now so I'll continue working and then I'll have extra money for other things."
No, they have stopped working now that they are receiving free food from Chavez. This lady, the business owner, has no longer been able to find a girl willing to clean her house, not even when she's offering more money than she was paying before.
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A middle class lady in Venezuela who has owned a business for a while was used to hiring girls from poor neighborhoods to clean her house since she was too busy with her business to clean her own house.
Hugo Chavez started giving away food baskets to the poor in her area. You would think the poor would think "Hey, I don't have to buy food now so I'll continue working and then I'll have extra money for other things."
No, they have stopped working now that they are receiving free food from Chavez. This lady, the business owner, has no longer been able to find a girl willing to clean her house, not even when she's offering more money than she was paying before.
I hate communists and socialists like the plague.
I especially hate the domestic socialists who wont go live in a socialist country and then profess to us how we need to move in that direction, when evidence abounds that it is a complete failure and breeds lazy unproductive behaviors.
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i especially hate morons who post nothing but negativity and manage to be against what they are for, if the person calling the shots doesn't fit their ideal person.
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i especially hate morons who post nothing but negativity and manage to be against what they are for, if the person calling the shots doesn't fit their ideal person.
KC - this article is direct evidence of the failure of the ideology you agree with and want our country to move to.
And yes, I am extremely negative when I see our country moving towards proven failure and an failed ideology like the one the DemocRAT party and its Dear Leader want us to follow.
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KC - this article is direct evidence of the failure of the ideology you agree with and want our country to move to.
And yes, I am extremely negative when I see our country moving towards proven failure and an failed ideology like the one the DemocRAT party and its Dear Leader want us to follow.
How? because bad mismanagement of a socialistic economy by governments that are built on consumption rather than production? You really have no idea and just wish to live in a selfish cocoon where no one helps anyone and we all fu*k each other over in the name of greenbacks.
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How? because bad mismanagement of a socialistic economy by governments that are built on consumption rather than production? You really have no idea and just wish to live in a selfish cocoon where no one helps anyone and we all fu*k each other over in the name of greenbacks.
Selfish . . . . Blah Blah
Greedy . . . . .Blah Blah
Did it ever dawn on you that lazy people in socialist countries typically dont like to work and produce anything?
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A middle class lady in Venezuela who has owned a business for a while was used to hiring girls from poor neighborhoods to clean her house since she was too busy with her business to clean her own house.
Hugo Chavez started giving away food baskets to the poor in her area. You would think the poor would think "Hey, I don't have to buy food now so I'll continue working and then I'll have extra money for other things."
No, they have stopped working now that they are receiving free food from Chavez. This lady, the business owner, has no longer been able to find a girl willing to clean her house, not even when she's offering more money than she was paying before.
Maybe she's a really messy pig? :-\
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Maybe she's a really messy pig? :-\
::)
No, she isn't. Just because you are doesn't mean that everybody else is one too.
But even if she was, that never stopped any of those girls from cleaning her house for years. It wasn't until they started getting free food baskets from the government that they decided to stop working.
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::)
No, she isn't. Just because you are doesn't mean that everybody else is one too.
But even if she was, that never stopped any of those girls from cleaning her house for years. It wasn't until they started getting free food baskets from the government that they decided to stop working.
And alot of women work part time outside of the home, ...as soon as their husbands start to earn more income, or if they start to earn more income, ...they don't want to work anymore. It's no different than in any other society regardless of the political structure. If you were working a job you didn't like in order to pay your mortgage and put food on the table, ...if your mortgage was paid off and your food was covered, ...would you continue to do the same job? ::)
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A middle class lady in Venezuela who has owned a business for a while was used to hiring girls from poor neighborhoods to clean her house since she was too busy with her business to clean her own house.
Hugo Chavez started giving away food baskets to the poor in her area. You would think the poor would think "Hey, I don't have to buy food now so I'll continue working and then I'll have extra money for other things."
No, they have stopped working now that they are receiving free food from Chavez. This lady, the business owner, has no longer been able to find a girl willing to clean her house, not even when she's offering more money than she was paying before.
Your story stinks of a LIE...Why? simply because these people are supposedly getting free food ala Chavez, does not mean that they would quit their job. As mentioned there are other things that the money could be and would be used for: Home needs, furniture, new house, clothing, children needs, savings etc etc
Where did you hear of this?
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And alot of women work part time outside of the home, ...as soon as their husbands start to earn more income, or if they start to earn more income, ...they don't want to work anymore. It's no different than in any other society regardless of the political structure. If you were working a job you didn't like in order to pay your mortgage and put food on the table, ...if your mortgage was paid off and your food was covered, ...would you continue to do the same job? ::)
Bla bla bla bla...no work, free education, free health care, free food. Keep defending and promoting this attitude. This is exactly why these European countries are almost bankrupt. Canada is next. ::)
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Your story stinks of a LIE...Why? simply because these people are supposedly getting free food ala Chavez, does not mean that they would quit their job. As mentioned there are other things that the money could be and would be used for: Home needs, furniture, new house, clothing, children needs, savings etc etc
Where did you hear of this?
No, my dear anti-Semite, it's not a story. It's the truth.
Exactly, that's what many of us are wondering. Why wouldn't these people keep the free food and keep their jobs as well to buy other things they couldn't buy before? We don't know. Only thing we can think of is laziness.
Where did I hear this? I see it.
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No, my dear anti-Semite, it's not a story. It's the truth.
Exactly, that's what many of us are wondering. Why wouldn't these people keep the free food and keep their jobs as well to buy other things they couldn't buy before? We don't know. Only thing we can think of is laziness.
Where did I hear this? I see it.
So you are a Joo???...why hide it?
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Only thing we can think of is laziness.
Where did I hear this? I see it.
That was the single biggest thing I noticed when living in Greece. Ironically, they don't consider it laziness and view Americans (or Yankees) as they like to call us, as a bunch of people who needlessly work themselves to death. We don't take the time to smell the roses type of thing.
Oddly, the average Greek doesn't consume that much...they tend to be fairly frugal. So the fact that their current consumption is still greater than their production is very telling about the lack of work.
They're a good people, but it's almost as though they don't get that they have to work hard enough to keep up with what they consume.
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Bla bla bla bla...no work, free education, free health care, free food. Keep defending and promoting this attitude. This is exactly why these European countries are almost bankrupt. Canada is next. ::)
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/rotflmao.gif)
So now you're an expert on Canada?
During the recent global financial meltdown, Canada was in the best financial position of ALL the nations involved.
Canadians follow sound fiscal policies relative to the USA and other G8 nations.
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(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/rotflmao.gif)
So now you're an expert on Canada?
During the recent global financial meltdown, Canada was in the best financial position of ALL the nations involved.
Canadians follow sound fiscal policies relative to the USA and other G8 nations.
Keep laughing. Canadian fertility rates are declining too, and your socialist policies are not sustainable for long without skilled young people in the work force. Sooner than later your bubble will burst.
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I am portuguese and the article is accurate... however globalization is, in a big part, guilty of this situation. Instead of teaching "how to fish" it expanded the easyness of credit to a very high percentage of people that couldn't afford to pay the interest rates, let alone the credit itself. Another point is the benefits that mos of the immigrants scum get from the state: It is a very smart move to gather votes and this is the TRUTH! Europe needs a very strong group of conservative, nationalist governments to cut off all the "ghetto" state expenses, end corruption and promote agriculture and heavy industries along with the developing of evironmental friendly sources of energy! Fuck the banks and the leftist ruled politicians and entrepeneurs, fuck the looby gay and the pollitically correctness. Let us do it the hard way to while we have the time!
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Keep laughing. Canadian fertility rates are declining too, and your socialist policies are not sustainable for long without skilled young people in the work force. Sooner than later your bubble will burst.
We don't have a problem finding young people with skills... our youth is educated in Canada... not America.
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Great article. Notice how TA, Luke, KC, Benny, and the rest of socialists wont go near this issue?
The 333386.
If you look up the GDP to debt ratios of these countries, you'll find that ALL the PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain) are just as much at risk of systemic financial collapse as the non-eurozone former communist block currencies (Latvia, Estonia etc) already buckling under the weight of paying euro-denominated-mortgages while their own currencies collapse.
You can read all about it here in yet another excellent article by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/7182739/Greek-Ouzo-crisis-escalates-into-global-margin-call-as-confidence-ebbs.html
But the reaction in these socialist countries is somewhat different to that in America.
Here in Ireland we just saw the bursting of one of histories most inflated property bubbles... within a year housing prices have collapsed 50% and unmployment has jumped from 4-6% to 22-25%. New taxes somewhat akin to the dreaded "IMF austerity conditions" have been introduced pre-emptively.
But the reaction isn't hysterical... people are protesting the very mention of cuts in the minimum wage rate (approx $12 an hour) and standing together with unions against corporate moves to capitlise on the situation. In fact, most of the public want the bailed-out banks fully nationalised... and many of our politicians are calling for increased taxation on the RICH.
Most Irish people remember the decade of 20+% unemployment Ireland suffered during the 80s... and know what it took to survive such hardship without an IMF bailout (which Britain capitulated to) while maintaining the world class education and healthcare systems our culture insists upon.
Meanwhile, America has a similar GDP to debt ratio (look it up, it's true);
-is fighting two unwinable wars;
-can't impose any taxation on the 0.1% of the population who earn 7% of the income;
-can't tax the have-nots any further (50 million without healthcare; 1 in 8 adults, 1 in 4 children on foodstamps)
-already has the worst wealth disparity in the developed world
-already has the worst education system in the developed world
-has descended into openly corrupt kleptocracy/corpocracy
So America is just as fucked as the rest of the developed world.
But the difference, the difference is how America is reacting... aye, there's the rub.
The American public, (albeit well meaning), are so terribly miseducated and propagandised that they are shifting inexorably towards outright Fascism.
This is frighteningly obvious in the disintegration of the Evangelical Christian "values voters" block, who have morphed into the schizophrenic Tea Party movement.
Not meaning to offend anyone... but Obama is NOT a socialist. Turns out he's just another sugar-coated corporate fascist.
But if you think "Palin 2012" is the answer... then sorry to tell you, but YOU are the problem.
The Luke
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If you look up the GDP to debt ratios of these countries, you'll find that ALL the PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain) are just as much at risk of systemic financial collapse as the non-eurozone former communist block currencies (Latvia, Estonia etc) already buckling under the weight of paying euro-denominated-mortgages while their own currencies collapse.
You can read all about it here in yet another excellent article by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/7182739/Greek-Ouzo-crisis-escalates-into-global-margin-call-as-confidence-ebbs.html
But the reaction in these socialist countries is somewhat different to that in America.
Here in Ireland we just saw the bursting of one of histories most inflated property bubbles... within a year housing prices have collapsed 50% and unmployment has jumped from 4-6% to 22-25%. New taxes somewhat akin to the dreaded "IMF austerity conditions" have been introduced pre-emptively.
But the reaction isn't hysterical... people are protesting the very mention of cuts in the minimum wage rate (approx $12 an hour) and standing together with unions against corporate moves to capitlise on the situation. In fact, most of the public want the bailed-out banks fully nationalised... and many of our politicians are calling for increased taxation on the RICH.
Most Irish people remember the decade of 20+% unemployment Ireland suffered during the 80s... and know what it took to survive such hardship without an IMF bailout (which Britain capitulated to) while maintaining the world class education and healthcare systems our culture insists upon.
Meanwhile, America has a similar GDP to debt ratio (look it up, it's true);
-is fighting two unwinable wars;
-can't impose any taxation on the 0.1% of the population who earn 7% of the income;
-can't tax the have-nots any further (50 million without healthcare; 1 in 8 adults, 1 in 4 children on foodstamps)
-already has the worst wealth disparity in the developed world
-already has the worst education system in the developed world
-has descended into openly corrupt kleptocracy/corpocracy
So America is just as fucked as the rest of the developed world.
But the difference, the difference is how America is reacting... aye, there's the rub.
The American public, (albeit well meaning), are so terribly miseducated and propagandised that they are shifting inexorably towards outright Fascism.
This is frighteningly obvious in the disintegration of the Evangelical Christian "values voters" block, who have morphed into the schizophrenic Tea Party movement.
Not meaning to offend anyone... but Obama is NOT a socialist. Turns out he's just another sugar-coated corporate fascist.
But if you think "Palin 2012" is the answer... then sorry to tell you, but YOU are the problem.
The Luke
The fact of the matter is that Euro & America's govts have made promises that are impossible to keep.
Luke - check out this site - www.usdebtclock.org
And no, I dont think Palin, Thune, Hucklebee, is the answer or savior to our problems. The citizens are the problem since we demand free shit with no ability to pay for it. The polticians cater to voters' demands and whims, give in, and hence, we have structural debt problems that will never be solved until and unless there is a massive collapse and/or rest, or structured default.
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We don't have a problem finding young people with skills... our youth is are educated in Canada... not America.
Fixed.
But you will have problems finding skilled Canadians of working age in the near future if fertility rates in Canada keep declining at the rate they are. Who will replace the current skilled workers when they retire?
How will your government pay for handouts if there aren't enough people with decent wages to tax anymore?
You can't sustain an economy in a welfare state where few skilled workers support many unskilled low income workers and the many lazy people who just won't work, not to mention the elderly, the disabled, etc.
You claim to have an IQ of 160. Do the math.
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Jag is clueless; like most socialists are to the reality of basic math, economics, demographics, etc.