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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: YngiweRhoads on March 06, 2010, 08:51:42 AM
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Period.
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It's over an hour. Can you please post a summary?
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It's over an hour. Can you please post a summary?
Cosmologist Lawrence Kraus describes how the Universe came into being from a state of nothingness. More specifically, how energy/matter can come from nothing. He also describes the eventual fate of the Universe.
The implications of this are fairly obvious. He explains his theories in layman's terms to the best of his abilities, and does so quite humourously I might add.
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It's over an hour. Can you please post a summary?
this is the problem stella, you guys want answers but are unwilling to listen and unwilling to open your minds. Here is an explanation with sound theoretics and testing, mate etc
seriously i doubt you sincerely care about anything to do with science or anything that clashes with your worldview, you will simply disregard it anyhow. I do not mean to be rude at all, dont take it that way but for example i have provided documented evidence of "macro-evolution" yet you guys (christians) keep moving the goal posts or disregard it.
Do you feel that having a closed mind is a good thing?
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It's over an hour. Can you please post a summary?
how long did it take you to read the bible?...or have you?
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this is the problem stella, you guys want answers but are unwilling to listen and unwilling to open your minds. Here is an explanation with sound theoretics and testing, mate etc
I have to admit I'm not that interested in spending over an hour watching that video but when I have more uninterrupted time I will attempt to do so.
i have provided documented evidence of "macro-evolution" yet you guys (christians) keep moving the goal posts or disregard it.
I don't think I've seen this...can you link me?
Do you feel that having a closed mind is a good thing?
I don't feel that my mind is any more closed than anyone else's here. I can see how you feel that Christians have somewhat closed minds but can you see how we feel that you come across as having a somewhat closed mind also? I think we both want to believe what is true.
how long did it take you to read the bible?...or have you?
Yes, I've read it and continue to do so. It takes a long time...some people take a year to read the whole thing..I've never "timed" myself though.
Have you read it?
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I don't feel that my mind is any more closed than anyone else's here. I can see how you feel that Christians have somewhat closed minds but can you see how we feel that you come across as having a somewhat closed mind also? I think we both want to believe what is true.
oh really?
do you admit that there is a possibility that god does not exist?
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oh really?
do you admit that there is a possibility that god does not exist?
Actually, I don't think I could ever reject that God is real. I don't have enough faith to accept that life as we know it on this planet (or even the placement of this planet, matter, etc.) happened by several accidents or out of chaos.
How do you feel about your question? Do you believe there is a possibility that God does exist?
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Do you believe there is a possibility that God does exist?
There is a possibility that a prime mover exists, so it can't be ruled out, yet. This video does suggest that something can come from nothing, which would make first cause unnecessary.
If you're talking god, as defined by any major religion, then the possibility of that god existing is close to zero.
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this is the problem stella, you guys want answers but are unwilling to listen and unwilling to open your minds. Here is an explanation with sound theoretics and testing, mate etc
seriously i doubt you sincerely care about anything to do with science or anything that clashes with your worldview, you will simply disregard it anyhow. I do not mean to be rude at all, dont take it that way but for example i have provided documented evidence of "macro-evolution" yet you guys (christians) keep moving the goal posts or disregard it.
Do you feel that having a closed mind is a good thing?
First of all brutal hypocrisy in this post LMAO ::)
second of all not all christians disregard evolution and evolution doesnt disprove God ::)
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First of all brutal hypocrisy in this post LMAO ::)
second of all not all christians disregard evolution and evolution doesnt disprove God ::)
No, evolution doesn't disprove god in the least. Nor does it attempt to.
It does, however, cast doubt as to the validity of many religious beliefs.
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No, evolution doesn't disprove god in the least. Nor does it attempt to.
It does, however, cast doubt as to the validity of many religious beliefs.
not at all, depends on how you look at it...
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not at all, depends on how you look at it...
That statement alone says volumes about religious beliefs.
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That statement alone says volumes about religious beliefs.
and this volumes about being "open minded" LMAO ;)
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There is a possibility that a prime mover exists, so it can't be ruled out, yet. This video does suggest that something can come from nothing, which would make first cause unnecessary.
Thanks YR. I've watched the first 1/2 hour of the video. Intend to finish it later and I do have some questions but maybe the last 1/2 will answer them.
If you're talking god, as defined by any major religion, then the possibility of that god existing is close to zero.
Why is that?
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and this volumes about being "open minded" LMAO ;)
Nothing of the sort. My statement was in reference to the reinterpretation of religious texts in an attempt to fit into definitions of reality being defined through scientific observation.
Being open minded means taking into account all information, deciding what is valid and what is not, and discarding that which is deemed invalid via logic and reason. Religion takes invalid information and then reinterprets it in an attempt to make it appear valid.
Gotta fly for now. Ciao.
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Sorry Stella, I just saw your post now. I'm having company over and can't post much before we go out for the evening.
Thanks YR. I've watched the first 1/2 hour of the video. Intend to finish it later and I do have some questions but maybe the last 1/2 will answer them.
Lawrence Krauss does answer peoples' email, to my knowledge, if you wish to address any concerns or questions to him.
Why is that?
I don't have time to go into detail right now. But, besides the lack of conclusive evidence, other than bible assertions*, there is also the specificity of god's interest and preference in/of humanity above all other forms of life in a, for all intents and purposes, limitless universe; and the imposing of human-like qualities on a supreme deity.
I'd go into further detail but it will have to wait until I have more time as this could branch off into many different areas of debate.
*I'm speaking strictly of the bible assertion to the existence of the biblical version of god and not addressing any other claims regarding other items- to avoid any tangent argument
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something from nothing...a Toxic/Hawkings explaination..in a few simple steps
1)The reason we know black holes exist is because we detect energy eminating from them (hawkings radiation...named after stephen hawkings who predicted it).
2) Now black holes have gravity so immense that NOTHING should be eminating from them right..cause a black hole should suck everything (including light) inwards. So how the heck does it emit radiation?
3) ok now how this works is energy. the total amount of energy in the universe has to remain constant..(actually the correct term is entropy not energy and entropy is the measure of disorder in a given system but we'll stick to energy for simplicity)
NOW since the total amount of energy in the universe HAS to remain constant and when a black hole sucks some energy into itself it effectively is taking energy OUT of the universe and we have a big problem! Remeber kids : energy can neither be created or destroyed. <moving to next post cause of screen bounce>
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<this is where you create something out of nothing so pay attention>
5> enter hawkings radiation. When a particle (energy:electron) falls into a black hole and is effectively lost for ever (ie : energy destroyed) a new opposite particle(anti electron: positron) pops out of nowhere and heads out in the opposite direction
This is called hawkings radiation and scientists have detected it and is how they identify where black holes are.
in the STRICTEST of sence though we didn't actually create something from nothing...we merely replaced energy that ws lost..but in the same strict sence a virtual particle (a mathematical anamoly) turns into a "real particle" at the exact moment a particle is sucked into a black hole
the end <for further reading google "hawkings radiation" >
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Actually, I don't think I could ever reject that God is real. I don't have enough faith to accept that life as we know it on this planet (or even the placement of this planet, matter, etc.) happened by several accidents or out of chaos.
How do you feel about your question? Do you believe there is a possibility that God does exist?
so you are closed minded then, you cannot accept evidence against god.
Yes i allow the possibility that god exists, i wish he did, i see no evidence for him. I will change my mind according to the evidence.
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First of all brutal hypocrisy in this post LMAO ::)
second of all not all christians disregard evolution and evolution doesnt disprove God ::)
please show me the hypocrisy ::)
I was giving an example of how most christians avoid evidence for natural explanations. Evolution rules out the possibility that god made each animal wholely at one time does it not? Evolution leaves god without a job in the creation of different species.
What the hell is the point of a prime mover, if it doesnt do anything, why define it as god.
again show the hypocrisy. I made a generalized comment that i believe is realiable, most christians reject evolution, and in turn reality.
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please show me the hypocrisy ::)
I was giving an example of how most christians avoid evidence for natural explanations. Evolution rules out the possibility that god made each animal wholely at one time does it not? Evolution leaves god without a job in the creation of different species.
What the hell is the point of a prime mover, if it doesnt do anything, why define it as god.
again show the hypocrisy. I made a generalized comment that i believe is realiable, most christians reject evolution, and in turn reality.
LOL again not at all, how do we know that God didnt create life with that path for it in mind?
the hypocrisey comes in you chastising others for being closed minded while being closed minded ;) LMAO
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yanno...i'm pretty horrible at typing...and i typed all that...something from nothing...
did ANYONE read it? >:(
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yanno...i'm pretty horrible at typing...and i typed all that...something from nothing...
did ANYONE read it? >:(
Yes, I read your post. :)
It does sound somewhat familiar. I've heard explanations for energy being emitted from black holes before. I've read some of Hawking's work and I'm fascinated with black holes myself. Kraus' hypothesis differs from this, of course, but I find it all quite interesting.
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Yes, I read your post. :)
It does sound somewhat familiar. I've heard explanations for energy being emitted from black holes before. I've read some of Hawking's work and I'm fascinated with black holes myself. Kraus' hypothesis differs from this, of course, but I find it all quite interesting.
i ws trying to point out that it IS possible to create something from nothing...
on a side note...this is why sometimes my posts dont make sence...i try to say as much as possible in as few words as possible..cause i'm a slow typer...
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LOL again not at all, how do we know that God didnt create life with that path for it in mind?
the hypocrisey comes in you chastising others for being closed minded while being closed minded ;) LMAO
i still dont see your point, how am i closed minded again? How do we know this isnt the matrix and the easter bunny runs the universe? how do we know that god isnt a person, a stranger like us who takes the bus. Seriously what evidence do you have for this massive assumption? NONE. So im closed minded because i don't believe in something that is highly improbable, that has no evidence for it and logically makes no sense, sure, thats me being closed minded. I don't exclude that possibility, but if i don't exclude that one the scenarios i gave would have to be accepted as well as possible, if we go this route we will go into absurdity.
I accept god may exist, i see no evidence, until then i will not hold a positive belief in something, doing so would actually make me closed minded.
Please, the dissonance you must be experiencing should be enough to hint at the ridiculousness of your claim.
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Sorry Stella, I just saw your post now. I'm having company over and can't post much before we go out for the evening.
No worries, hope you had a nice time!
I don't have time to go into detail right now. But, besides the lack of conclusive evidence, other than bible assertions*, there is also the specificity of god's interest and preference in/of humanity above all other forms of life in a, for all intents and purposes, limitless universe; and the imposing of human-like qualities on a supreme deity.
I'd go into further detail but it will have to wait until I have more time as this could branch off into many different areas of debate.
*I'm speaking strictly of the bible assertion to the existence of the biblical version of god and not addressing any other claims regarding other items- to avoid any tangent argument
Sounds interesting!
YR, please feel free to start new threads on each assertion you have in mind and it might help us not to get too side-tracked or go off on tangents.
OK I only watched a little more so far but here are some questions I have:
Early in that guy's talk, he says this about NOTHING:
"nothing is a boiling bubbling brew of virtual particles popping in and out of existence in a time-scale so short you can't see them."
"we can't measure virtual particles directly but we can measure their effects indirectly."
"nothing weighs something."
My question here is that how can he call the above nothing when it is something?
He also says:
"The universe is expanding"
"We know how many protons and neutrons are in the universe."
???
He also talks about Hubble had inaccurate equipment which we based equations upon. He said now we have better equipment but indicated it's not perfect.
My question here is how can we assume that equations subsequentially based upon this information (which is not 100% accurate) are accurate?
Later he says nothing is: "zero total energy plus quantum fluctuations (can produce a universe)."
How can he call that "nothing?" ???
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<this is where you create something out of nothing so pay attention>
5> enter hawkings radiation. When a particle (energy:electron) falls into a black hole and is effectively lost for ever (ie : energy destroyed) a new opposite particle(anti electron: positron) pops out of nowhere and heads out in the opposite direction
This is called hawkings radiation and scientists have detected it and is how they identify where black holes are.
in the STRICTEST of sence though we didn't actually create something from nothing...we merely replaced energy that ws lost..but in the same strict sence a virtual particle (a mathematical anamoly) turns into a "real particle" at the exact moment a particle is sucked into a black hole
the end <for further reading google "hawkings radiation" >
I read it Toxy ;D
Where does that guy say the black hole comes from?
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so you are closed minded then, you cannot accept evidence against god.
Evidence against God is not found in science or nature imo....so yes, I would be closed-minded if we are looking at those things as a measuring stick. I'd say the thing I sometimes wonder about is some of the suffering that God allows. But I realize I'm not omniscient but I believe He is.
this is the problem stella, you guys want answers but are unwilling to listen and unwilling to open your minds. Here is an explanation with sound theoretics and testing, mate etc
seriously i doubt you sincerely care about anything to do with science or anything that clashes with your worldview, you will simply disregard it anyhow. I do not mean to be rude at all, dont take it that way but for example i have provided documented evidence of "macro-evolution" yet you guys (christians) keep moving the goal posts or disregard it.
Do you feel that having a closed mind is a good thing?
Necro, did you watch this vid? Do you think these guys came across as open-minded?
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I read it Toxy ;D
Where does that guy say the black hole comes from?
oooo...Stells i'd have to type like 3 pages but lets see in short...
ok every thing that has mass has gravity...agreed?
even u have gravity...albiet...minis cule (thats not a compliment...just scientific fact :D)
gravity pulls everything towards the center of mass...ok
now if something is massive enough..like a star a million times bigger than our sun (yep they exist) its gravity is sooooo strong that everything gets pulled towards the center to a point infinitely dense. like the whole star gets condensed to a single point.
that infinitely dense point has a gravity sooo high that even light cannot escape and time slows down...or stops...(we just dont know which 1...but it certainly slows down we just dunno whether it actually stops)
now the point at , after which light cannot escape (distance from center...cause ya gotta get close enough for this to happen) is called the event horizon and the whole thing is the black hole :)
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oooo...Stells i'd have to type like 3 pages but lets see in short...
ok every thing that has mass has gravity...agreed?
even u have gravity...albiet...minis cule (thats not a compliment...just scientific fact :D)
gravity pulls everything towards the center of mass...ok
now if something is massive enough..like a star a million times bigger than our sun (yep they exist) its gravity is sooooo strong that everything gets pulled towards the center to a point infinitely dense. like the whole star gets condensed to a single point.
that infinitely dense point has a gravity sooo high that even light cannot escape and time slows down...or stops...(we just dont know which 1...but it certainly slows down we just dunno whether it actually stops)
now the point at , after which light cannot escape (distance from center...cause ya gotta get close enough for this to happen) is called the event horizon and the whole thing is the black hole :)
Thanks for simplifying it for me Toxy :)
OK...in as far as the theme of this thread, does that guy say how the massive stars that cause black holes came into being?
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Thanks for simplifying it for me Toxy :)
OK...in as far as the theme of this thread, does that guy say how the massive stars that cause black holes came into being?
ok that particular research ws done by an indian physicist called chandershaker. if the mass of a star is bigger than the chandershaker limit it collapses in on itself to form a black hole....
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-chandrasekhar-limit.htm
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oops didn't read your question properly...well hmm..there r a wide variety of explainations...
1) those r first generation stars born in the very early universe (our sun i believe is a second generation star formed from the matter of other exploded stars)
2) 2 stars collide and form a huuuge mondo star
article on how massive stars form
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090119-mm-massive-stars.html
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this is the problem stella, you guys want answers but are unwilling to listen and unwilling to open your minds. Here is an explanation with sound theoretics and testing, mate etc
seriously i doubt you sincerely care about anything to do with science or anything that clashes with your worldview, you will simply disregard it anyhow. I do not mean to be rude at all, dont take it that way but for example i have provided documented evidence of "macro-evolution" yet you guys (christians) keep moving the goal posts or disregard it.
Do you feel that having a closed mind is a good thing?
Necrosis,
Have you read the Bible from cover to cover? How many times? It goes by pretty quick if you listen to an audio version. You miss stuff the first time through, hence the need to read/hear it from cover to cover more than once.
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A Universe From Nothing?
That is correct!
Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"...from nothing. :)
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A Universe From Nothing?
That is correct!
Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"...from nothing. :)
Yes I agree....but they're trying to explain it w/o God being a part of it...that's why I have so many questions.
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Yes I agree....but they're trying to explain it w/o God being a part of it...that's why I have so many questions.
why do you feel the need to explain it with god?
it makes the question more complicated, is that logical. Before anything, even the simplest thing, there was a hypercomplex omnipotent being creating everything, it makes no sense and adds more questions then answers.
No one is trying to explain anything without god, its just that an immaterial being who lives outside the universe in eternity is not exactly testable now is it. We are interested in the truth.
You are closed minded, you have admitted as such, you cannot accept the non existence of god, you have your mind made up regardless of the evidence, not exactly rational now is it?
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why do you feel the need to explain it with god?
it makes the question more complicated, is that logical. Before anything, even the simplest thing, there was a hypercomplex omnipotent being creating everything, it makes no sense and adds more questions then answers.
No one is trying to explain anything without god, its just that an immaterial being who lives outside the universe in eternity is not exactly testable now is it. We are interested in the truth.
You are closed minded, you have admitted as such, you cannot accept the non existence of god, you have your mind made up regardless of the evidence, not exactly rational now is it?
It's either
"Nothing created everything from nothing"
or
"God created everything from nothing." :)
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It's either
"Nothing created everything from nothing"
or
"God created everything from nothing." :)
No its not at all. Why do you think that is the case? Perhaps the many universe theory is correct, string theory, perhaps the universe is eternal and nothing never existed, that is something always existed, perhaps energy since it cannot be created nor destroyed, a law?
Putting god at the start complicates the question, do you not see that?
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Always enjoy Krauss...
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Always enjoy Krauss...
jesus, how did you get 18000 posts old man, wtf.
Ive been here for years.
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jesus, how did you get 18000 posts old man, wtf.
Ive been here for years.
Man...I have been here a while longer son... ;)