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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: 240 is Back on March 12, 2010, 05:38:36 AM
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First off, welcome back.
Second, you have said repeatedly that you live in Hawaii. What is the healthcare system like that? Here in the states, we repeatedly here that you guys are already using Obama's socialist healthcare system out there, with great success.
Is this true? How is it different from the other 49 states? How does it work, and do you prefer to use private even though the state gives it out? Thanks!
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First off, welcome back.
Second, you have said repeatedly that you live in Hawaii. What is the healthcare system like that? Here in the states, we repeatedly here that you guys are already using Obama's socialist healthcare system out there, with great success.
Is this true? How is it different from the other 49 states? How does it work, and do you prefer to use private even though the state gives it out? Thanks!
you mean the one they had to stop offering to people because it went broke?
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wow, is that true? What year did it go bankrupt, and how did the people react to their healthcare being taken away?
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http://sweetness-light.com/archive/lessons-from-hawaiis-health-care-system (http://sweetness-light.com/archive/lessons-from-hawaiis-health-care-system)
Remember Hawaii’s Health Care Lessons
Just 16 years ago Hawaii was held up as a model for national universal health-care. Now it is broke and even its vaunted employer mandated coverage is not guaranteeing everyone is getting coverage.
From the archives of the New York Times:
Hawaii Health Care Is Called a Model for U.S.
May 19, 1993
Hawaii’s universal health-care system, which insures 96.5 percent of the state’s residents and costs less than health care in other states and Canada, could serve as a national model, health officials from Hawaii say in a new report.
The report also says that requiring employers to provide insurance for employees who work at least 20 hours a week has not bankrupted small businesses, as some feared when the plan went into effect 19 years ago.
"In fact, some indirect indicators suggest that the effect may be positive," said the report, to be published on Wednesday in The Journal of the American Medical Association…
Hawaiians rank at or near the top in health status compared with other Americans, the health officials said.
"We believe a considerable amount of this success is attributable to direct and indirect effects of Hawaii’s employer mandate," they said, adding that the state’s approach receive serious attention as a task force headed by Hillary Rodham Clinton considers health-care changes…
Hawaii was also held up as as a model during the recent debate about expanding the federal State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), since it was the only state universal child health care program in the country.
But that didn’t last too long.
From the Associated Press:
Hawaii Ends Universal Child Health Care 7 Months After Start
Saturday , October 18, 2008
HONOLULU — Hawaii is dropping the only state universal child health care program in the country just seven months after it launched.
Gov. Linda Lingle’s administration cited budget shortfalls and other available health care options for eliminating funding for the program. A state official said families were dropping private coverage so their children would be eligible for the subsidized plan.
"People who were already able to afford health care began to stop paying for it so they could get it for free," said Dr. Kenny Fink, the administrator for Med-QUEST at the Department of Human Services. "I don’t believe that was the intent of the program." …
Hawaii lawmakers approved the health plan in 2007 as a way to ensure every child can get basic medical help. The Keiki (child) Care program aimed to cover every child from birth to 18 years old who didn’t already have health insurance..
State health officials argued that most of the children enrolled in the universal child care program previously had private health insurance, indicating that it was helping those who didn’t need it.
The Republican governor signed Keiki Care into law in 2007, but it and many other government services are facing cuts as the state deals with a projected $900 million general fund shortfall by 2011…
Families with children currently enrolled in the universal system are being encouraged to seek more comprehensive Medicaid coverage, which may be available to children in a family of four earning up to $73,000 annually.
These children also could sign up for the HMSA Children’s Plan, which costs about $55 a month…
Despite Hawaii’s experience, the expansion of SCHIP was still rammed through Congress as soon as the Obama administration was sworn in.
Meanwhile Hawaii’s hospitals have losing money for eight years and are going broke.
From the Associated Press:
Hospitals in Hawaii report $150 million in ’07 losses
October 24, 2008
HONOLULU (AP) – Hawaii hospitals suffered operating losses of $150 million last year and expect the situation to worsen in the near future…
Hawaii Medical Center, which operates two former St. Francis hospitals on Oahu, filed for bankruptcy this year and cut the number of beds it offers.
The state’s publicly subsidized hospital network, Hawaii Health Systems Corp., has had to request millions in emergency funding from the state to stay afloat.
Kona Community Hospital, part of the network, laid off 10 percent of its workers. Also on the Big Island, the privately run North Hawaii Community Hospital laid off 12.6 percent of its staff.
A Ernst & Young LLP report released Thursday, and prepared for the Healthcare Association, shows hospitals as a group have sustained operating losses for eight consecutive years.
Reimbursements from Medicare, which represent about one-third of Hawaii patient charges, only covered 77 percent of costs. Medicaid/ Quest payments covered about 71 percent of costs.
Payments from private insurers such as the Hawaii Medical Service Association cover slightly more than expenses, but they are not enough to make up for losses produced in providing medical services to Medicare and Medicaid/Quest patients…
And, on top of everything else, it turns out that Hawaii’s wonderful employer mandated health-care isn’t working out so well, after all.
Strangely enough, businesses have found ways to get around it. Such as hiring fewer than 20 employees.
From the Honolulu Advertiser:
Isle health care law questioned
Tuesday, June 30, 2009
A law enacted in Hawai’i in 1974 that requires employers to provide health insurance for employees working at least 20 hours a week is being cited by researchers who are skeptical of similar mandates being suggested in the argument for universal health care.
The result of Hawai’i’s Prepaid Health Care Act has been that businesses have relied more on employees who work fewer than 20 hours a week and thus aren’t covered under the requirement, wrote San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank research adviser Rob Valletta and co-authors Tom Buchmueller and John DiNardo, both University of Michigan professors.
The results of the research into health insurance coverage in Hawai’i "imply that an employer mandate is not an effective means for achieving universal coverage," they wrote.
"Although overall insurance coverage rates are unusually high in Hawai’i, a substantial number of people remain uninsured, suggesting a need for alternative approaches if universal coverage is the ultimate goal," they said…
So the solution is obvious – stricter mandates from the Federal Government.
By the way, the Heritage Foundation had challenged the idea of using Hawaii as a model for any national system back in 1994.
Here is the conclusions of one of their reports at the time:
A Critique of the Hawaii Health Care System
by Hellreich, Phillip D., Dr.
Heritage Lecture #496
August 4, 1994
… In conclusion, Hawaii has had most of the components of the Clinton health care proposals in effect since the enactment of its Prepaid Health Care Act in 1974.
It has failed in its two major goals of 1) decreasing the number of Hawaii’s population that were uninsured and 2) curtailing the ever-rising costs of health care delivery.
In order to control spiraling health care costs, it has just instituted its Health Quest Program, which will severely ration care and deprive most of the citizens of our state of their right to be treated by the physician of their choice. In light of this information, the American people and members of Congress should think long and hard before enacting a health care proposal which shares so many features of Hawaii’s Prepaid Health Care Act.
Isn’t it odd how we no longer hear about Hawaii being the model for a US system of healthcare?
Probably because it turned out to show us all too clearly where we will be headed under its favorite son’s ‘Obama-Care,’ after all.
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240 has a selective memory when it comes to many things.
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It's strange that the passed bill for universal health care in 2007 only to have to drop it in 2008 due to budget shortfalls.
Why didn't the lawmakers in Hawaii predict the global financial meltdown, near depression and collapse of the real estate market that was about to happen only months later?
you'd think they would have been able to predict something like that
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It's strange that the passed bill for universal health care in 2007 only to have to drop it in 2008 due to budget shortfalls.
Why didn't the lawmakers in Hawaii predict the global financial meltdown, near depression and collapse of the real estate market that was about to happen only months later?
you'd think they would have been able to predict something like that
Which is pretty much where we are now.
Given those circumstances, passing a UHC bill for the entire nation would be like repeating the same mistake 49 times.
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It's strange that the passed bill for universal health care in 2007 only to have to drop it in 2008 due to budget shortfalls.
Why didn't the lawmakers in Hawaii predict the global financial meltdown, near depression and collapse of the real estate market that was about to happen only months later?
you'd think they would have been able to predict something like that
That is why the govt should never enact these insane policies in the first place.
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It's strange that the passed bill for universal health care in 2007 only to have to drop it in 2008 due to budget shortfalls.
Why didn't the lawmakers in Hawaii predict the global financial meltdown, near depression and collapse of the real estate market that was about to happen only months later?
you'd think they would have been able to predict something like that
So now that we do have these financial problems and they are projected into the future, you think the government should scrap the current healthcare bill?
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Which is pretty much where we are now.
Given those circumstances, passing a UHC bill for the entire nation would be like repeating the same mistake 49 times.
could be, except has this bill been scored by the CBO and shown to actually reduce costs over the next 10 years?
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could be, except has this bill been scored by the CBO and shown to actually reduce costs over the next 10 years?
GMAFB - they front load the taxes for 4 years and only pay out benefits for 6. When it is 10 years of taxs and 10 years of benes, its massively in hock.
Straw - would you sign up for a 10 year car lease where you pay for the first 4 years and only take possession for the last 6th?
Of course not, case closed.
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could be, except has this bill been scored by the CBO and shown to actually reduce costs over the next 10 years?
LOL this is supposed to be an arguement for health care...educate yourself straw youre having another the "post office is doing just fine" moment ;)
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LOL this is supposed to be an arguement for health care...educate yourself straw youre having another the "post office is doing just fine" moment ;)
Straw is the perfect definition of "useful idiot".
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oh ya and welcome back beach
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GMAFB - they front load the taxes for 4 years and only pay out benefits for 6. When it is 10 years of taxs and 10 years of benes, its massively in hock.
Straw - would you sign up for a 10 year car lease where you pay for the first 4 years and only take possession for the last 6th?
Of course not, case closed.
case closed?
you got any actual evidence to support your claims?
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LOL this is supposed to be an arguement for health care...educate yourself straw youre having another the "post office is doing just fine" moment ;)
they seem fine to me
like I've said, I have a feeling they post office will be around long around you and I are both dead
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case closed?
you got any actual evidence to support your claims?
LMFAO. This has to top Luke's idiocy. You're throwing out numbers and don't even know what they represent. :D :D
This has to be your best post ever. Thanks!
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Latest #'s from the CBO still show health care will cost 875 billion and reduce deficit by 118 billion
Can anyone here guess the CBO estimate for the cost of the Iraq War?
How about the Bush Tax Cuts?
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/86185-cbo-revised-cost-estimate-pegs-senate-health-bill-at-875-billion
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case closed?
you got any actual evidence to support your claims?
Another "supporter" of obamacare who doesnt even know whats in it. ::) ::)
Straw - that post office is doing great no?
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they seem fine to me
like I've said, I have a feeling they post office will be around long around you and I are both dead
are you dumb? they are talking about cutting out saturdays to save money, cutting 30k jobs this year...that sounds fine to you?
lol typical lib reasoning I guess, like someone on govt aid theyre getting a pay check so what do they care right? you have to ask yourself why your getting a paycheck...
why do you think they post office will be around longer than both me and you? ::)
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Latest #'s from the CBO still show health care will cost 875 billion and reduce deficit by 118 billion
Can anyone here guess the CBO estimate for the cost of the Iraq War?
How about the Bush Tax Cuts?
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/86185-cbo-revised-cost-estimate-pegs-senate-health-bill-at-875-billion
first off what does the iraq war and bush tax cuts have to do with this? more of the same from you ::)
second again you have to ask yourself why the CBO has found that...again educate yourself straw
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Another "supporter" of obamacare who doesnt even know whats in it. ::) ::)
Isn't that the truth. Throwing out numbers and he doesn't even know when the taxes start versus when the real benefits kick in. But, I feel bad, so I'll help.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/113xx/doc11307/Reid_Letter_HR3590.pdf
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Isn't that the truth. Throwing out numbers and he doesn't even know when the taxes start versus when the real benefits kick in. But, I feel bad, so I'll help.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/113xx/doc11307/Reid_Letter_HR3590.pdf
Its hysterical - those who support this mess have no clue whats in it while those of us most opposed are far more fluent in its details.
Typical lib nonsense. Stamp your feet like a child and think something is so just you scream about it.
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Its hysterical - those who support this mess have no clue whats in it while those of us most opposed are far more fluent in its details.
Typical lib nonsense. Stamp your feet like a child and think something is so just you scream about it.
That was just downright sad. This has been all over the news. It's not like this is some little known fact about Obama's healthcare plan. It's been everywhere!!!!
Now he's making a pathetically feeble attempt to deflect into Iraq.
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That was just downright sad. This has been all over the news. It's not like this is some little known fact about Obama's healthcare plan. It's been everywhere!!!!
Now he's making a pathetically feeble attempt to deflect into Iraq.
I think straw just got a dose of reality and he flailed and fell back to the blame bush mentality
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That was just downright sad. This has been all over the news. It's not like this is some little known fact about Obama's healthcare plan. It's been everywhere!!!!
Now he's making a pathetically feeble attempt to deflect into Iraq.
Skip - go over to the Gop Poll and young voters thread and look at some of the clips I posted and Straw's responses. Because I posted them that alone means they are flase, when they are Obama, Rahm, Hillary, own freaking clips and speeches!
Straw said that they are beck paranoid material when they are obamas' own speeches and words. you cant make this up anymore.
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first off what does the iraq war and bush tax cuts have to do with this? more of the same from you ::)
second again you have to ask yourself why the CBO has found that...again educate yourself straw
it has to do with how WE CHOOSE to spend our tax dollars (or our borrowed dollars)
We have no problem spending 3 trillion on a fake war to keep America safe (and we all know it's mostly about enriching defense contractors) but we need to listen to the right wing bitch and moan about less than a trillion being spent to actually give millions of people health care and maybe save some of the 40k lives that are lost each year due to lack of health care
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it has to do with how WE CHOOSE to spend our tax dollars (or our borrowed dollars)
We have no problem spending 3 trillion on a fake war to keep America safe (and we all know it's mostly about enriching defense contractors) but we need to listen to the right wing bitch and moan about less than a trillion being spent to actually give millions of people health care and maybe save some of the 40k lives that are lost each year due to lack of health care
1. The Stim Bill is more expensive than the Iraq War. stop making up bs to make a point.
2. ObamaCare is a tax bill not a health bill.
3. 40k w/o insurance os utterly nonsense since many of those would have died regardless.
4. Two wrongs dont make a right.
5. Why should we pay for illegal aliens?
6. Go screw yourself.
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1. The Stim Bill is more expensive than the Iraq War. stop making up bs to make a point.
how much was the Stim Bill and how much is the War estimated to cost?
2. ObamaCare is a tax bill not a health bill.
looks like a health care bill to me
3. 40k w/o insurance os utterly nonsense since many of those would have died regardless.
I think I'd rather believe a Harvard study rather than a raving lunatic on a message board:
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/september/harvard_study_finds_.php
4. Two wrongs dont make a right.
what are the two wrongs
5. Why should we pay for illegal aliens?
I agree - now show me where we are doing that
6. Go screw yourself.
You seem cranky this morning. Did you get your period?
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...less than a trillion being spent to actually give millions of people health care and maybe save some of the 40k lives that are lost each year due to lack of health care
Where's your evidence that it's going to save 40K lives? According to the article YOU linked to:
She added: “Even the most liberal version of the House bill would have left 17 million uninsured, according to the Congressional Budget Office. The whittled down Senate bill will be worse — leaving tens of millions uninsured, and tens of thousands dying because of lack of care.
Did you actually read beyond the headline?
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Where's your evidence that it's going to save 40K lives? According to the article YOU linked to:
She added: “Even the most liberal version of the House bill would have left 17 million uninsured, according to the Congressional Budget Office. The whittled down Senate bill will be worse — leaving tens of millions uninsured, and tens of thousands dying because of lack of care.
Did you actually read beyond the headline?
I read it
did you read my post?
where did I say it was going to save 40k lives?
it has to do with how WE CHOOSE to spend our tax dollars (or our borrowed dollars)
We have no problem spending 3 trillion on a fake war to keep America safe (and we all know it's mostly about enriching defense contractors) but we need to listen to the right wing bitch and moan about less than a trillion being spent to actually give millions of people health care and maybe save some of the 40k lives that are lost each year due to lack of health care
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First off, welcome back.
Second, you have said repeatedly that you live in Hawaii. What is the healthcare system like that? Here in the states, we repeatedly here that you guys are already using Obama's socialist healthcare system out there, with great success.
Is this true? How is it different from the other 49 states? How does it work, and do you prefer to use private even though the state gives it out? Thanks!
Thank you.
I have not "said repeatedly that I live in Hawaii."
See the post of my alter ego (Colossus). He pretty much sums it up.
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oh ya and welcome back beach
Thanks. :)
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Thank you.
I have not "said repeatedly that I live in Hawaii."
See the post of my alter ego (Colossus). He pretty much sums it up.
Bum - will you go back to giving us weather reports and local news again?
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I read it
did you read my post?
where did I say it was going to save 40k lives?
Ok, any evidence to suggest it will save any lives? The study you posted doesn't even suggest it. Or are you just...
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Bum - will you go back to giving us weather reports and local news again?
Straw is the perfect definition of "useful idiot".
LMFAO. This has to top Luke's idiocy. You're throwing out numbers and don't even know what they represent. :D :D
This has to be your best post ever. Thanks!
are you dumb?
6. Go screw yourself.
I'm sensing a pattern here. lol.
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Ok, any evidence to suggest it will save any lives? The study you posted doesn't even suggest it. Or are you just...
how would I get evidence about something that can only happen in the future?
Still, if the study finds that ~ 45k die each year due to lack of health insurance then it doesn't take a leap of faith to figure out that if that group of 45k had health insurance then some of those deaths (in that year) could most likely have been prevented.
Let's change "health insurance" to "food"
If 45k starved to death each year due to lack of food would you still ask me to prove that giving them food would prevent them from dying from starvation?
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how would I get evidence about something that can only happen in the future?
Still, if the study finds that ~ 45k die each year due to lack of health insurance then it doesn't take a leap of faith to figure out that if that group of 45k had health insurance then some of those deaths (in that year) could most likely have been prevented.
Let's change "health insurance" to "food"
If 45k starved to death each year due to lack of food would you still ask me to prove that giving them food would prevent them from dying from starvation?
I would say go get food stamps, get a job, go ask a church, and do something other than being a helpless lazy POFS looking for a handout.
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I would say go get food stamps, get a job, go ask a church, and do something other than being a helpless lazy POFS looking for a handout.
nice job completely missing the point
does it take a genius to figure out that giving starving people food would most likely prevent them from starving to death?
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nice job completely missing the point
does it take a genius to figure out that giving starving people food would most likely prevent them from starving to death?
We already have measures to take care of that the same way we already have programs to help people.
There is zero reason whatsoever for this bogus health mess since its based on lies and bs to begin with.
85% of people or better already like their health insurance and dont want a creep like MAObama to come and screw it up so that illegals and other can get care.
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how would I get evidence about something that can only happen in the future?
Still, if the study finds that ~ 45k die each year due to lack of health insurance then it doesn't take a leap of faith to figure out that if that group of 45k had health insurance then some of those deaths (in that year) could most likely have been prevented.
Let's change "health insurance" to "food"
If 45k starved to death each year due to lack of food would you still ask me to prove that giving them food would prevent them from dying from starvation?
That's neither here nor there. You're saying the healthcare bill will cover a sufficient number of people so as to reduce the 40K number. The study you posted doesn't suggest that, in fact it claims millions will still go without.
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how would I get evidence about something that can only happen in the future?
Still, if the study finds that ~ 45k die each year due to lack of health insurance then it doesn't take a leap of faith to figure out that if that group of 45k had health insurance then some of those deaths (in that year) could most likely have been prevented.
Let's change "health insurance" to "food"
If 45k starved to death each year due to lack of food would you still ask me to prove that giving them food would prevent them from dying from starvation?
And how exactly did they come up with this 45K number? Seems to me the way the study was done intentionally skewed the results. If you didn't have insurance at the time you were asked in the study and then died after lets say 10 yrs, they just add that person to the group died because they didn't have health insurance at the begining of the study. Now that looks like that new government math to me.